RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 3/25/2008 4:30:08 PM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stoenr
F1Fan costs me more money everytime I read one of his post 
Hey Stoenr,
I'm just doing my part to help bring back the American economy!
Cheers!
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 3/29/2008 6:51:00 AM
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LICobra
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There's alot of information in this thread....I have an 08 GT 5speed, the rear is way too high, I'd like to drop the front about an inch and the rear about two inches, I'd like the car to sit lowered and level, nor like a wedge of cheese as some perfer with the back end up. Are there any springs that will lower the rear almost double to the front.
Thanks
LICobra
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/2/2008 9:27:12 PM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LICobra
There's alot of information in this thread....I have an 08 GT 5speed, the rear is way too high, I'd like to drop the front about an inch and the rear about two inches, I'd like the car to sit lowered and level, nor like a wedge of cheese as some perfer with the back end up. Are there any springs that will lower the rear almost double to the front.
Thanks
LICobra
Hi LICobra,
Welcome to the best technical forums on the net!
Sure there are springs you can buy to lower the car twice as much at the rear than front but you won't like what it does to the handling and rear grip not to mention the ride. Are you after this ride height change for appearance or hoping find some improved handling while you are in there? Be honest about it as your results will be better if you are.
Cheers!
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/3/2008 7:22:10 AM
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LICobra
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F1
I agree this is a excellent technical site.
to answer your question, im lowering just for apperance sake, im really not looking for a performance gain as this is my daily driver.
Thanks
LICobra
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2008 Mustang GT
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/3/2008 10:33:38 AM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LICobra
F1
I agree this is a excellent technical site.
to answer your question, im lowering just for apperance sake, im really not looking for a performance gain as this is my daily driver.
Thanks
LICobra
Hi LICobra,
Well then for your application I've heard a lot of reasonable results for people with similar wants doing a Roush rear spring only. This lowers the rear about 1" and leaves the front alone so you get maximum ground clearance and retain maximum stock ride quality. You have to consider the fact that when you lower a car using springs you are changing a lot of stuff along the way that you may or may not be aware of. Also most of the rear springs I've measured only slightly increase the rear spring rates to keep the rear axle working in a more comfortable range of motion for the people inside the car. But some sport springs are more well tuned and increase spring rates more aggressively to keep the handling balance closer to ideal to match their front spring rate changes.
To lower the car all around about 1" I can highly recommend installing Steeda Sport or Ultralite springs and H&R's regular Sport springs. The Steeda Sport and Ultralite springs tend to lower the car about 1" in front and maybe 1-1.25" in the back. Steeda Ultralites are maybe a touch softer riding but could not really feel it but I did measure the difference on a high precision (0.000000N) digital load cell spring tester we got from H&R and the difference is pretty small, about 5lbs. or so in Amercan numbers. The H&R springs tend to lower the front more than the rear. Germans like that wedge shape and I'm sure that H&R had their reasons for keeping the ass higher than the front but for the life of me I can't see a good reason to do this in terms of handling or static weight balance. Maybe there is some aero advantage to be found on the Autobahn but I'm reaching here in the land of 55MPH.
So here is the short story. When you lower a car using springs you are eating up suspension travel and this means that if you want to keep the car from bottoming out and handling very poorly you need to increase the spring rate to compensate for this loss of suspension travel. When you increase spring rates (hopefully by the same percentage front and rear to retain handling balance) you are also going to need to increase the compression and rebound damping or ride, body control and handling will suffer. There are many other problems caused by lower in a car using springs too and the effects are felt in the steering and handling of the car and reduced cornering and launch speeds. Of course the lower you set your ride height from the stock height the worse these issues become.
These problems are generally kept managable by limiting the amount you lower the car to 1" or less. Adjustable struts and rear dampers are IMO a requirement if you are going to go through the bother of swaping springs out. You also have significant savings on labor to install the dampers later which about 70% of the time is the case because the changes in ride and body motions that naturally happen when using higher spring rates that are poorly matched to the already over and under damped stock struts and dampers.
Here is something else to consider, if you install a set of adjustable D-Spec dampers along with a set of application appropriate springs and pay somebody to do the installation you are basically getting the springs for free! O.K., O.K. so you still have to pay for the springs dampers and installation and alignment out of your own pocket but you are only going to pay the labor for installation and alignment once if you do them at the same time. The free part comes when you realize the savings of only paying the installation and alignment labor once instead of twice. About 70% of the people who install springs only wind-up later installing adjustable dampers because the springs always seem to make the car ride poorly and move funny over bumps for all the reasons I've listed else where in this post.
There is no magic spring design that can lower the car, keep the suspension from bottoming out and still work well with the same old struts and rear dampers no matter what the spring makers tell you. Progressive spring designs are not a perfect solution IMO (and in my experience) on the S197 chassis. They are too sensitive to variations in chassis weight and unpsrung mass to have a good chance of working with the number of possibilites they have to deal with on a chassis with the sheer number of aftermarket parts on the market which people bolt-on their cars. With a linear rate spring you know what spring rate you are working with and the ony thing that changes with changes in chassis weight is ride height which varies with all springs depending on the chassis weight anyway. Linear rate springs are also alot easier to adjust or set damping rates on for a happy ride and handling compromise. This is where adjustable dampers come into play allowing you to adjust them from your daily driver mode to favor even softer ride or firmer body control for more confident handling in less than 5 minutes.
I won't go into the suspension geometry issues caused by excessive lower with springs. You can read about them in the pages and posts above. Needless to say you need to consider your use and the long term advantages to installing adjustable dampers when you install any sort of springs.
I hope this helps you to get a better handle on this subject. Does it?
Cheers!
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/3/2008 4:27:58 PM
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LICobra
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F1
I can see your point about lowering the car and making suspention changes. I guess my mustang is typically high, as it looks like im about to go four wheeling. I don't know what the ford engineers were thinking when they set these GT's up. At least the Shelby GT has a more correct look.
The rear wheel well is 3 inches above the top of the tire and the front is 2 inches, what I'd like to accomplish is the front come down 1/2 inch and the back 1 1/2 inches, this way I have the look I want , the car is level and still have plenty of clerance for the front chin spoiler and hopefully not bottom out the suspention in the rear. I realize im not asking for the norm...so right now im looking at all the springs available and the height differences. If I can't acheive the height I want then the rest is a wash...I appreciate your input.
OK here's my starting point, do you know of any springs that can accomplish only a 1/2 drop in the front ?? the back dropping 1 1/2 seems pretty typical for most.
Thanks
LICobra
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/3/2008 5:37:28 PM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LICobra
F1
I can see your point about lowering the car and making suspention changes. I guess my mustang is typically high, as it looks like im about to go four wheeling. I don't know what the ford engineers were thinking when they set these GT's up. At least the Shelby GT has a more correct look.
The rear wheel well is 3 inches above the top of the tire and the front is 2 inches, what I'd like to accomplish is the front come down 1/2 inch and the back 1 1/2 inches, this way I have the look I want , the car is level and still have plenty of clerance for the front chin spoiler and hopefully not bottom out the suspention in the rear. I realize im not asking for the norm...so right now im looking at all the springs available and the height differences. If I can't acheive the height I want then the rest is a wash...I appreciate your input.
OK here's my starting point, do you know of any springs that can accomplish only a 1/2 drop in the front ?? the back dropping 1 1/2 seems pretty typical for most.
Thanks
LICobra
Hi LICobra,
Well here is the thing, there is no single spring set on the market today with these lowering numbers. I suppose you could buy a couple of spring sets to get the front and rear drop you want. But your would have to sort of mix and match them possibly from two different companies for just the right ride height but this is sort of a lot of work for an appearance sort of thing. H&R has several different sport spring sets that you could mix and match but I doubt that the spring rates will make your car handle well if you mix them up like this and I'm pretty sure they will tell you the same thing. This is not to say you cannot achive this precise ride height it will just cost you a lot of money to achive and will require that you give up some small amount of ride comfort along the way.
You some how have managed to get to a place where you need a set of coilovers to meet your ride height and ride quality needs. The problem is that coilovers are more expensive than regular springs and damprs and they are tuned for a more performance oriented ride and handling audience. If you buy inexpensive coilovers you can't get the ride you are looking for because for the most part they are not adjustable for damping only ride height. If you buy the more expensive coilovers which have adjustable damping you can achive a very nice level of ride quality as long as they are double adjustables and the struts and rear spring seats use one of the common ID's (inner diameter, common sizes are 2.5" 60mm and 70mm) with straight springs for racing type coilover use for which you can buy springs from multiple vendors (Eibach, HyperCoil, H&R, Koni etc.) You also want to buy a coilover strut with an upper strut mount that is isolated to keep the steering from being too harsh and tiring.
Coilovers are the only really perfect way to achive the ride height you say you need. But they are not cheap nor are they easy to find a competent person to setup except in the most basic sort of way. I love my Steeda coilovers but as you know I'm a suspension geek.
HTH!
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/4/2008 7:52:36 AM
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LICobra
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F1... You bring up a lot excellent points. I have decisions to make.
After checking out a few different springs manufactures im still not knowing what direction to go, if I go with a full blown suspension im lowering the car more than I need with unwarranted parts expenses.
I could just lower the back and inch for now, although I know in the long run I will not be happy having a two inch gap between the top of the tire and the fender. Thanks for your insite..
I know there are alot of Mustang suspension shops, how would I know if there able to replace and dial-in the new suspension. Like you said, you want someone who knows what there doing. What do you look for in a suspension shop??
LICobra
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2008 Mustang GT
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/4/2008 10:45:46 AM
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Centurion96
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There is a lot of good information in this thread. The only problem I see is trying to discern the mods necessary for an individual's personal needs. I have found that right out of the box this S197 handles better than any other pony car I've ever owned and I had a few (Camaros, Mustangs, and Firebirds). Even spent quite a few years auto crossing while a member of SCCA. So I'm debating lowering the rear for cosmetic purposes without adversely effecting ride quality. I'm only looking at leveling the car out so the 1" in the rear would probably suit me. I do see that this will offset the axle somewhat and may effect pinion angle. I've already decided on putting in a set of D-Specs to quiet the noise coming from the passenger seat and a set of GT500 LCAs to reduce wheel hop. I'm also considering a beefier rear sway bar as well. So I'm part ways towards lowering and as I see it I could use an adjustable pan hard rod and an adjustable UCA to insure that my lowering the rear has no adverse effects on axle offset and pinion angle.
I continue to debate whether to lower the rear or not as I don't want to end up spending copious amounts of money setting up the front end. I could always leave the ride height as is, it seems I'm the only one in the family that notices the rake. I do want to improve cornering and ride quality, I've left the ball in my wife's court, stiff ride or $500 worth of dampers and struts. 
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/4/2008 8:25:16 PM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Centurion96
There is a lot of good information in this thread. The only problem I see is trying to discern the mods necessary for an individual's personal needs. I have found that right out of the box this S197 handles better than any other pony car I've ever owned and I had a few (Camaros, Mustangs, and Firebirds). Even spent quite a few years auto crossing while a member of SCCA. So I'm debating lowering the rear for cosmetic purposes without adversely effecting ride quality. I'm only looking at leveling the car out so the 1" in the rear would probably suit me. I do see that this will offset the axle somewhat and may effect pinion angle. I've already decided on putting in a set of D-Specs to quiet the noise coming from the passenger seat and a set of GT500 LCAs to reduce wheel hop. I'm also considering a beefier rear sway bar as well. So I'm part ways towards lowering and as I see it I could use an adjustable pan hard rod and an adjustable UCA to insure that my lowering the rear has no adverse effects on axle offset and pinion angle.
I continue to debate whether to lower the rear or not as I don't want to end up spending copious amounts of money setting up the front end. I could always leave the ride height as is, it seems I'm the only one in the family that notices the rake. I do want to improve cornering and ride quality, I've left the ball in my wife's court, stiff ride or $500 worth of dampers and struts.
Hi Centurion96,
The S197 chassis handles better than any previous Pony car because there has never been a chassis this stiff under a Pony car before. Sure the late F-bodies had some good suspension design features but the chassis was so soft you really could not take advantage of it. Wittness the incredibly stiff spring rates GM used to get these cars to handle. Then there was the weight issue, F-bodies are FAT. If they were going to make a haevy car at least make it stiff!
With an S197 vert I would install a strut tie bar, D-Specs, Ebach Camber Bolts, Roush RSO, an Adjustable Panhard bar, HD PB brace, GT500 LCA's and call it a day. The vert's chassis and stock springs are softer (I can't confirm the dampers) than a GT coupe and you don't really want to get too carried away on the spring rate and lower the car too much unless you are going to add stiffness. Leave the anti-roll bars off your list, the verts are reasonably balanced already and all bars will do is make the car ride more harshly.
If you keep the springs and bars stock you will want to add as much negative camber as the tires will allow without causing too much additonal inside tire wear. Recognize that you will have a suspension that allows a bit more roll than you want so you need to compensate with additional camber. As far as I can tell -1.5 degrees negative is as far as you can really go and still get decent tire life. I ran a set of stock tires with -1.5 degrees camber and there was a little bit of early tire wear, maybe 2-5K miles less than if the car had the stock -.75 degrees camber. Those Pirellis would have easily gone 30K with stock alignment specs. Anyway the additional negative camber is why I suggested the Eibach Camber Bolt Kit, it helps to keep the front grip up in the turns without adding a stiffer set of springs or anti-roll bars.
If you drive the car you will get more than simply the ability to recenter the rear axle. The Panhard bar is all that you have holding the rear axle in the car when cornering and is also the only control link that is giving you any feedback from the rear axle when cornering. This part is critical to a good handling car. To maximize your Panhard bar's performance and increase chassis longevity you need the matching heavy duty Panhard bar brace. Stop here, I'd just do the minimum stuff I mention and enjoy the fact the top comes off.
HTH!
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 4/5/2008 12:33:51 PM >
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/4/2008 10:12:02 PM
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Centurion96
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Thanks F1Fan, that sounds easy enough, looks like I'll be collecting some new parts over the next few months.
P.S. I understood everything except the Roush RSO, I'm not up on that acronym.
< Message edited by Centurion96 -- 4/4/2008 10:27:52 PM >
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/5/2008 12:51:43 PM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Centurion96
Thanks F1Fan, that sounds easy enough, looks like I'll be collecting some new parts over the next few months.
P.S. I understood everything except the Roush RSO, I'm not up on that acronym.
Hi Centurion96,
Yea, gather them up when you find them cheap (that's what Ilike to do anyway) and then have a nice day wrenching under the car with you friends. It's one of the best things to do on a warm spring or summer weekend, making good friends with Mustang people while wrenching on cars and bench racing. It's the bomb!
Oh sorry about that, Roush (R)ear (S)pring (O)nly.
Cheers!
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Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/5/2008 2:34:03 PM
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BoidMorphs
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Hi F1Fan. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the Vogtland lowering springs. Hotpart.com has a set they call leveling which lowers the car less in the front than the rear. Here's a link to them. http://www.hotpart.com/index.php?p=show&id=154
< Message edited by BoidMorphs -- 4/5/2008 2:35:44 PM >
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/5/2008 6:27:47 PM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BoidMorphs
Hi F1Fan. I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the Vogtland lowering springs. Hotpart.com has a set they call leveling which lowers the car less in the front than the rear. Here's a link to them. http://www.hotpart.com/index.php?p=show&id=154
Hi BoidMorphs,
Most of the progressive sport springs on the market have too high a spring rate for a vert. The Vogtland springs are no exception. I finally found someone with Vogtland springs in a car that I got to work on and drive. The springs are not bad but I did not get to drive them enough or play with the damping rates on the D-Specs enough to see how their spring design worked with some damper tuning. I was not put off by the rates though they do get fairly stiff with increased travel which is a good thing given the moderate initial rate of these springs. I didn't think they were bad, good actually but I did not have much time to play with them really. But my initial thought is that they are probably as good or maybe even a slightly better spring than the Eibach Pro-Kit springs. I have not had the opportunity to put them on the load cell spring tester but they feel like the heel of the spring rate curve is closer to the right spot in the spring/suspension travel than the Pro-Kit springs. But I like them so far.
AFAIK Vogtland only has one spring with a 30mm ride height drop. This is the spring part number I got to drive on after doing some work on a buddy's S197GT. I have no idea where the springs Hopparts is advertising on their website come from that you posted the link to but the spring specs and part number shown are for a GT500 chassis no matter what they call them.
Cheers!
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/5/2008 8:11:36 PM
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Centurion96
Posts: 108
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From: East Central Florida
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quote:
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
It's one of the best things to do on a warm spring or summer weekend, making good friends with Mustang people while wrenching on cars and bench racing. It's the bomb!
Oh sorry about that, Roush (R)ear (S)pring (O)nly.
Cheers!
Thanks
Know what you mean, just spent the day with 450 very close Mustang friends at the Mustangs and Mustangs show at Fantasy of Flight in Lakeland FL.
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07 GT vert, IUP, Comfort group, 3.55LS, manual, side airbags, Torch red with cloth top.
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/5/2008 8:54:53 PM
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05GT_HPK999
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F1Fan and Forum members,
Been reading your posts on this site, and yeah, lots of good stuff.
Would like you to review my setup and offer any suggestions please.
2005 GT coupe, w/ the following Steeda parts installed - Ultra-light springs all four corners, Adj Rear UCA, HD Strut mounts, G-trac brace, D-specs, adj pan hard and HD brace, rear sway bar. Currently still running factory 17" Pzero's. The D-specs are currently set @ 3 1/2 turns out
I had the rear bar installed before any other suspension mods and it greatly reduced my understeer. Now, with all the recent suspension upgrades, I have more oversteer than before.
Looking for any guidance on optimum street settings for the D-specs, as well as what seems to work best for "track" driving. Reasearch on this site says 2.5 turns front, 3 rear, and -1 to -1.2 deg camber.
Do you think I can dial out the oversteer with shock settings?
Should I consider going back to the stock rear sway bar (I'm not sure I want to go stiffer in the front, seems if the Steeda bar is too much with the new springs, I should just go back to the factory part)?
Anyone know does the Shelby GT setup run a shorter bump stop in the rear to get back some of the lost rear suspension travel with the shorter springs?
Thanks in advance for the help - this is a great site.
< Message edited by 05GT_HPK999 -- 4/5/2008 8:58:36 PM >
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/9/2008 10:16:56 AM
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F1Fan
Posts: 1281
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 05GT_HPK999
F1Fan and Forum members,
Been reading your posts on this site, and yeah, lots of good stuff.
Would like you to review my setup and offer any suggestions please.
2005 GT coupe, w/ the following Steeda parts installed - Ultra-light springs all four corners, Adj Rear UCA, HD Strut mounts, G-trac brace, D-specs, adj pan hard and HD brace, rear sway bar. Currently still running factory 17" Pzero's. The D-specs are currently set @ 3 1/2 turns out
I had the rear bar installed before any other suspension mods and it greatly reduced my understeer. Now, with all the recent suspension upgrades, I have more oversteer than before.
Looking for any guidance on optimum street settings for the D-specs, as well as what seems to work best for "track" driving. Reasearch on this site says 2.5 turns front, 3 rear, and -1 to -1.2 deg camber.
Do you think I can dial out the oversteer with shock settings?
Should I consider going back to the stock rear sway bar (I'm not sure I want to go stiffer in the front, seems if the Steeda bar is too much with the new springs, I should just go back to the factory part)?
Anyone know does the Shelby GT setup run a shorter bump stop in the rear to get back some of the lost rear suspension travel with the shorter springs?
Thanks in advance for the help - this is a great site.
Hi 05GT_HPK999,
Looks like you joined a while ago and have been lurking but welcome to the forums!
Is that rear bar a Steeda bar? Do you know the size of the rear Steeda anti-roll bar? If it's the smallest one they sell (nominally 21mm) you might be able to get more front grip by setting your camber more aggressively to counter balance the larger rear bar. The Ford '05 Mustang factory shop manual says that you can run up to -1.25 degrees negative camber and still be in spec but I have run -1.5 with no problems and only very minor additional tire wear. I suggest that if you have the smallest Steeda bar you may want to try increasing your fron camber to -1.5 degrees negative per-side and see if the push is improved enough for you. If the bar is the Steeda 22mm or 24mm Competition rear bar you can install the Steeda adjustable 35mm front bar or just revert back to the stock 20mm bar. Personally I would try the stock rear anti-roll bar before installing the Steeda adjustable front anti-roll bar. The stock balance is not bad and with the springs you might be happier with the way it handles and rides better than if you went with the larger front bar. You do give up some ride and NVH with larger bars, just something to consider.
You can't really dial out under/oversteer with damper settings. All you can do is slow the onset of the weight transfer which causes the problem when the car is in transition. With the stock 17 tires I had the full Steeda suspension including the bars and the car was a blast to drive once I had the suspension dialed in. Nobody expects a skinny tired car to go fast and a lot of folks will tell you to upgrade your tires first but IMO you should optimize your basic chassis however it is equipped before changing tires. You can have an awfull lot of fun on a skinny tire car and frequently a skinny tire car is just as fast or faster than a fat tired car in the tight stuff. Oh and skinny tires can get noticably better gas mileage than fat tired cars.
I don't know if the axle bumpstops are any shorty on a Shelby GT but you can get propper bumpstops from Eibach for the S197 rear axle. You can also cut the stock bumpstops but this is not ideal due to the way they are designed and what they are made out of. You want to order the axle side bumpstops out of an Eibach Sportline spring kit. You will have to call Eibach to get the right part number as I've don't remember it and my suspension notebook was lost during my garage rebuild.
HTH!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 4/9/2008 3:11:59 PM
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Sleeper_08
Posts: 276
Joined: 12/18/2007
Status: offline
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I called Eibach yesterday and the PN for the shorter rear bump stops is BS45001617 and the list price is $6.45 each
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White 08 GT Roush S/C 445 HP/KDW2 285/40/18 tires/18 x 9.5 wheels Steeda Ultralites/ Steeda Competition springs/D Specs/LCA/Adj UCA & Mnt/AdjPHB/PHB brc/Upper strut mnts/GT500 Brake Kit/GT500 Front LCA/X5 Ball Jnt/Bmp Str + more
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