RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 9/17/2007 9:04:52 PM
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F1Fan
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PART 2
Body Control, Struts and Dampers
All a chassis' dampers have to do is control the oscillations of the springs. Sounds simple enough but it really is not easy to do well all the time. The dampers on a street car are for the most part, what determines a car's ride characteristics and how well controlled the chassis and wheels feel to the driver. A car's dampers and damping rates can make or break a chassis' ability to keep the tires in maximum contact with the road and the driver's confidence in the chassis' ability to go where he intends.
Tokico D-Spec gas adjustable struts and dampers, part# DSP12 are for those folks who want the widest range of adjustability at a reasonable price (so shoot me I’m cheap!). Tokico’s newish D-Spec struts and dampers are surprisingly a double adjustable damper design using a single adjustment knob. The damping rate adjustment knob changes both compression and rebound damping rates using a predetermined relationship between compression and rebound. Sure there are better race dampers available but nothing is as good as these on the street where you want to go from long range cruising comfort to dodging cones in a parking lot in 5 minutes or less. The S197 specific D-Spec dampers seem to work very well with Steeda Sport and Competition spring sets because Steeda actaully did the development work for the damping curves for Tokico and had to sign off on the damping curves before Tokico produced them.
Bilstein HD gas struts and dampers, non-adjustable fixed damping rates for those who desire improved chassis control and are willing to give up some handling performance for the best possible ride; these are THE dampers to buy. The Bilstein HD non-adjustable gas dampers were designed as a high-end O.E. replacement damper with improved ride and handling capabilities. The Bilstein HD line far exceeds the capabilities of any conventional oil or gas/oil non-Bilstein O.E. damper offered in terms of ride quality and performance. Nevertheless, if and when Koni's new FSD technology dampers are released for the S197 Mustangs the Bilstein HD's will have some serious competition in this application segment with a similar ride centric focus and potentially much improved handling capabilities.
Koni Sport gas adjustable struts and dampers are for those who want excellent performance and are willing to compromise a bit on ride comfort. Koni’s Sport dampers are single adjustable for rebound damping only, relying on a fixed compression rate that is suitable for most of the streetable sport springs on the market. Ironically, if you want a higher level of comfort with these struts and dampers you may find a higher rate spring gives you better ride with these dampers once you adjust the rebound-damping rate.
There are several other dampers on the market but they are for the most part conventional non-adjustable or non-adjustable coilover dampers. The most notable of the coilovers are the Steeda coilovers using D-Spec struts and Progrssive coilovers which use Koni DA (double adjustable), race damper internals. Eibach has non-adjustable dampers but these are not high-end dampers from what I have seen nor have I driven a car with these installed yet. Steeda also has some non-adjustable dampers but I have no idea how well they are valved or where the valving falls in the stiffness range. The Steeda dampers are actually custom valved private labled Tokico built dampers but I have no way of knowing at the moment how they ride or handle.
I have a very long history of using Koni Race and Sport struts and dampers and IMO until very recently for a street performance application there was no competition except for Bilstein’s Sport damper line which are very good but not adjustable requiring that you send them back to Bilstein to have the shim stack rebuilt if your needs are different from what Bilstein has determined. This all changed two years ago with Tokico’s release of the D-Spec line of dampers. Koni and Bilstein struts remain the best in the world for street cars and the vast majority of production based racecar classes too. Koni and Bilstein struts and dampers have been proven tough and reliable under extremely punishing race use on and off road. Historically Tokico’s struts and dampers were sold to very low price points and have proven over the years to be very unreliable and have traditionally come with terrible damping rates. It remains to be seen if the new (to the U.S. market anyway), Tokico D-Spec struts and dampers can go the distance or not in a lowered, heavy-duty sports application with short, stiff sport springs. So far so good on my own car at 20,000+ miles, I’m keeping my fingers crossed.
CONTINUED...
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 10/10/2007 8:53:53 AM >
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 9/17/2007 9:06:27 PM
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F1Fan
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PART 3
Camber Control
If you are not going to lower your car you will need to align your front suspension with more negative camber that the factory design does not allow for if you hope to improve grip and cornering speeds. Two maybe three options here all have proven to work well within limits of their respective designs. For those who do not lower their ride height you may have to use a combination of parts to get the amount of negative camber we are looking for. The problem is that most of these parts are developed around a car that has reduced ride height. On my own car the combination of Steeda HD Strut Mounts and Eibach Camber bolts worked great on the Eibach Pro-Kit springs but with the Steeda Competition or Sport springs the maximum negative camber I can achive is -0.9 degrees negative. This is quite a bit short of the -2.25 degrees negative camber I could get with the Eibach Pro-Kit springs installed.
Steeda Billet camber plate kit, uses a pair of heavy alloy plates on the outside of the strut mounting ears with repositionable metal inserts that give you different camber settings by inserting different inserts or repositioning the inserts. These are very reliable and work great but requires grinding or slotting the strut mounting ears to allow the bolts the freedom of movement needed for repositioning the hub. The upside of these plates is that they are very reliable yet easily adjustable with no chance of slipping out of adjustment. The downside is that you have to grind the strut mounting ears with a die grinder and some strut makers will take offense and want to void your strut warranty for performing this modification.
Eibach/SPC/BMR camber bolt kit, allows easy camber setting with aftermarket struts and lowering springs. Suitable for street use and light track duty. Simple, cheap and effective but can slip under extreme conditions. If you want a more reliable camber adjuster and to solve the infernal clicking and popping from the OE strut bearings you need the next item which can be used alone or in combination with a camber bolt kit.
Steeda Heavy Duty Strut Mount, this HD strut bearing is adjustable for camber and gives you up to 2 degrees of easy adjustment at the top of the strut towers. Uses precision needle bearings and billet alloy bearing seat/guide/spring perch to give you improved steering precision while eliminating the factory installed clicking and popping plastic strut bearing mounts. For street /track use without additional NVH over the stock mounts, these are well isolated NOT a solid spherical bearing race only mount. When used with some springs these babys can replace or be used with Steeda's billet camber plates, genius!
Maximum Motorsports Camber Caster plates. This part with a more limited range of adjustability, 1.5 degrees or so but is not so useful for the street cars here due to the use of a spherical bearing. The S197 chassis has more caster stock than any of the camber caster plates setups on the SN95 chassis allowed and AFAIK there is no need for more caster in the S197 chassis. There are other similar parts available from J&M and others all with the same problem, they all rely on a spherical bearing welded into a plate which is mounted to the car and causes a lot more NVH. Some will find the NVH levels tollerable but most will not.
CONTINUED...
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 10/10/2007 9:03:07 AM >
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 9/17/2007 9:08:43 PM
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F1Fan
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PART 4
Body Roll Control, Handling Balance
Everybody says that they are going to buy just a rear anti-roll bar and that you should not buy a front anti-roll bar, these people are either not into serious handling performance or severly budget limited. This is all great in theory but in the real world with different spring, damper, subwoofers, staggered wheels and tires it just cannot work as well as buying an adjustable front anti-roll bar. For this discussion I've stuck with bars that bolt into place of the stock bars. Sure there are some great anti-roll bars on themarket but these are the most commonly used for a couple of reasons. First they fit and bolt on without welding or modification of the existing mounts or having to install a propriatary K-member and second they work as expected and use stock O.E. style end-links and hardware.
There are several adjustable front anti-roll bars and rear anti-roll bars on the market. Griggs make a very nice anti-roll bar kit front and rear for the front of the S197 chassis and it offers top shelf components and hardware but the Griggs piece uses rod ends which for the street are a big no-no due to the extra NVH they transmit. Gorgous race quality work just like Steeda but for those who are always whinning about Steeda's prices look closely at what stuff could cost and thank your lucky stars that Steeda sells enough of this stuff to make it affordable to the masses. BTW, Griggs front and rear bars are $1,000 for the pair. Eibach (which is who FRPP buys the A-R bars they sell as their own), has a very good set of bars for the S197 chassis and on a stock chassis works well but retains a bit of the stock setup's understeer. BMR has a a solid product in their front and rear anti-roll bars but the links they provide are crude and cheaply made with plenty of flex much like the stock links. Another low-end anti-roll bar maker is Helwig more commonly found on trucks and camper bodied pick-ups. They use the same style crude hardware design as BMR does.
Steeda or Eibach/FRPP Front Anti-Roll Bar, if you are not going to increase the spring rates and lower the car you need all the help you can get to maintain maximum tire contact patch area. These A-R bars are adjustable but on an un-lowered car with stock spring rates you really want to maximize the front and rear A-R bar rates so you need to use this adjustment in the front hole (closest to the chassis side mounts, or away from the strut end), to maximize the bar's effective rate. While you are at it you should install a set of Steeda front A-R bar mount supports, NOT the cool looking billet A-R mounting blocks, they don't really do anything and prevent you from using the mounting braces that actually work to reduce flex of the mounts and rad support /chassis cross member.
Steeda or Eibach/FRPP Rear Anti-roll Bar, normally if you are running balanced tire sizes at all four corners and Sport springs Steeda's catalog street A-R bar is going to be a good choice. But because of the taller ride height path you have chosen forcing you to run the front A-R bar at the stiffest position you need a more aggressive rear A-R bar to avoid pushing like a pig especially for tighter, slow speed corners and/or if you auto-X and want to get the car to rotate. Look at the larger size Steeda Competition A-R bar. Steeda's and Eibach's billet links are very pretty sitting under the rear of the car but the Ford GT500's rear anti-roll bar is just as effective and nearly half the price of the Steeda Competition part when purchased over the counter as a part. If for some cosmetic reason, you are running a staggered wheel, tire setup, and have any hope of achieving handling balance that is not all push you need to buy the Steeda Competition A-R bar or the FRPP GT500 piece to avoid pushing like a pig syndrome.
CONTINUED...
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 10/10/2007 9:14:08 AM >
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 9/17/2007 9:11:12 PM
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F1Fan
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PART 5
Rear Axle Location
It is funny to me that almost everybody wants to rush out and blindly install sexy, shinny billet LCA's and/or an UCA as one of their first suspension upgrades to the rear of the S197 chassis. Most folks think that this will improve their car's handling but this is incorrect! All the LCA's and UCA do is give the axle an axis to rotate around (hopefully freely), by locating the axle fore and aft. While this is critically important for a drag-oriented car with 500-800RWHP to put to the ground in a straight line, for a road course oriented car the LCA's and UCA are not nearly so important. Sure road course cars need precise fore and aft, location of the axle and this is important for handling. However, in a road racer there is much less force applied and it is almost never applied as violently as is required of a drag race application. What this tells you is that if you are after great handling you need good fore and aft axle location suitable for locating the rear axle at the power level your engine is at no more, no less. More than likely if you are still normally aspirated you don’t need or even want the more expensive spherical or rod ends because they are not needed, add noise vibration and harshness to the cabin and there are more important things to spend your money on.
O.K. after reading the previous paragraph you are thinking hey what is going on here? Everybody can’t be wrong can they? Well of course not I am right and they are all wrong. O.K., O.K. they are not all completely wrong, just if you are after a sweet handling S197GT with under 400BHP with a road course focus. The thing is that the S197 chassis has all these parts at the rear of the car to locate, support, dampen and control the rear axle. Each suspension component does only one task because they were designed to only perform one task each to avoid the suspension binding problems of all previous modern Mustangs that had suspension links that tried to perform more than one task. I won’t go into detail here but the last generation Mustangs with solid rear axles and the so-called 4-link suspension was a chrime against suspension engineers all around the world. They were designed to bind and right out of the box from Ford! This issue was one of the main reasons the previous generation Mustangs had such poor ride and handling traits.
Anyway, suffice it to say the current generation S197 chassis engineers did not make that mistake again and blessed us with a fine basic design. The way the standard Ford S197 chassis 3-lnk suspension works is the LCA’s and UCA locate the axle fore and aft as described by an imaginary pivot point somewhere in the middle of the chassis. If you draw a line through the LCA pivot points extending forward and draw a similar line for the UCA and then draw a line from the middle of the tire contact patch to where the UCA and LCA lines intersect you will have located that imaginary pivot point around which the rear axle rotates called the sideview instant center. This imaginary pivot point is also used to determine the percentage of anti-squat the rear suspension has.
The parts of the rear suspension that are easiest to understand are the springs and dampers. The springs hold the chassis off the axle and the dampers just control the body motions in relationship to the axle. What is left is the Panhard bar which is the suspension component that locates the rear axle in the chassis laterally (side to side). Each suspension component works independently to control the axle and minimally interferes with the function of the other parts of the rear suspension meaning minimal binding occurs and you have a nice supple smooth operating suspension.
Here is the important part for a road racing or handling oriented street car. The single most important rear suspension component on a standard layout S197 chassis 3-link suspension for handling is the Panhard bar. This one link locates the rear axle laterally in the chassis and is the sole source of rear axle cornering feel for the driver aside from the rear dampers. Obviously lighter and stiffer is better so high-end materials are important. If the whole point of a Panhard Bar is to accurately locate the rear-axle in the car then the pivot points on the chassis and axle ends of the Panhard bar need to have rock solid stability. Ideally, this would extend to the pivot points but unless you are building a race car, you will have to compromise and use polyurethane bushings for isolation of NVH (noise, vibration, harshness). If you do not get this one right, you simply cannot have a good handling S197 chassis. A good Panhard bar is the key to an S197 chassis with good rear-end handling feel. The reason is a sensitive driver can use the rear-end's feel to gauge what the rear of the car is doing and how much power can be applied through the corner and when to put the hammer down on corner exit.
CONTIUNED...
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 10/10/2007 9:22:05 AM >
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 9/17/2007 9:14:50 PM
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F1Fan
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PART 6
Rear Axle Location
Ah, but the Panhard Bar is far from perfect, it does have a few issues that detract from its elegant simplicity and very light weight. The Panhard bar mounted at the body on one end and on the axle at the other end restrains the axle from moving side to side as it travels up and down. The problem is that for this to work the bar has to move up and down with the axle and the bar being fixed on the chassis causes the axle end to move in an arc as described by the length of the Panhard bar itself. The curvature of the arc is what makes the axle move side to side ever so slightly. On a vehicle with a long suspension travel this could be a problem as the axle would change position side to side excessively in the chassis making for odd handling to say the least. O.K. enter our modern roads and the S197 suspension’s sporting intentions with rather limited travel and the axle shift is pretty small due to the fact that the bar is quite long and the suspension really does not move up and down very far so the amount of axle shift is very small within the range of typical suspension motions. Even so, the small amount of vertical Panhard Bar movement is the root of the Panhard Bar design’s worse handling trait, the rear axle roll center moves up and down, left and right with the axle movements, not the body. This means the car tends to feel and handle differently when turning left vs when turning right because the roll center is moving up and down with the axle as the car rolls changing the roll center height. The difference is subtle but more noticeable as your tires and other suspension components improve and can be disconcerning if you are not familar with the feeling.
Now I’m going to throw a wrench in the works here and mention that there is an excellent handling alternative to the Panhard Bar as used in the standard S197 chassis for the task of locating the rear axle on an S197 chassis now. You may be aware of or heard the term Watt’s Link rear suspension. I only throw this out in the event that someone among us is wealthy enough and dedicated enough to buy and install one of these in their steet car. I do not see a major advantage in terms of grip or traction performance by the installation of a Watt’s Link when compared with the standard 3-link and Panhard Bar rear axle suspension. This is handling feel thing which is very important to driver confidence and the ability to predict how the car is going to react is important to a driver. Ultimate grip maybe slightly improved in one direction over even a good Panahrd bar car and the car will suffer much less of the jacking effect the Panhard bar cars can experience. The real difference is that a Watt's link car will handle the same left and right and the car is more predictable under power so you can use power earlier than with a Panhard bar car.
There are to my knowledge at least three currently produced streetable Watt’s Link’s available for the S197 chassis that are produced by real companies with some suspension experience Fayes2, Lakewood (has been on hold for nearly a year with no ship date yet) and Saleen. All three will work fine with varying levels of success due to limitations of the designs. The Faye’s and Lakewood kits are both good basic Watt’s Links with a chassis mounted pivot and control links fastened to the left and right side axle tubes. The major problem with these kits is that they both use compressive clamps on the S197’s 8.8 axle tubes that were designed and built using thin tubes to shave axle weight and in Ford’s own service and shop manuals warn not to use the tubes as support or jacking points. In reality the 8.8 Ford rear-end was designed to reduce the mass of the monolithic Ford 9” which, while unbreakable weighed a ton causing the supporting structures and location components to be much heavier too and you know that to a performance vehicle weight is the enemy. If the Faye’s or Lakewood kits offered a means of reinforcing the axle tubes with weld-on doublers for the left and right axle tubes and tabs in double sheer for the Watt’s Links I would consider these to be better than the Saleen Watt’s Link kit. However, they don’t so the natural winner is Saleen's PJ edition 302 Watt's link. The Faye’s and Lakewood kits also bring to the table with them the biggest disadvantage of a Watt’s Link and that is weight. In order to have a chassis mounted pivot point there has to be a large heavy sub-frame to reliably locate the pivot to the chassis. There is no way around this and it adds a lot of weight to the admittedly lighter end of the chassis. The Faye’s and Lakewood kits do offer something in return for the extra 15-20lb. over the Saleen PJ kit and that is a roll center moves perfectly vertically with the car which to a driver is a slightly more predicable feeling at the limit. These kits also offer the ability to move the roll center up and down to suit the track and driver preferences, which while no small thing, involves some work to change. Lastly, a chassis mounted Watt’s pivot makes for a quieter car with less potential for differential noise coming through the link bushings.
CONTINUED...
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 3/25/2008 4:12:24 PM >
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 9/17/2007 9:16:45 PM
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F1Fan
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PART 7
Rear Axle Location
In practical terms, the Saleen PJ Watt’s Link on the market to buy is the Saleen PJ Watt’s Link. Saleen is a well-known company and they will likely be able to support the part for many years to come. The Saleen Watt’s Link was first seen in the special edition Saleen Mustang called the PJ, a BOSS 302 Trans-Am theme car which recalls the very famous Orange cars of the Parnelli Jones Trans-Am wars of the late 60’s and early 70’s. The Watt’s link as implemented by the Saleen engineers is not an ideal solution and in fact only partially resolves the only two weaknesses of a Panhard Bar design while creating unique issues of its own. The unique problems of the Saleen PJ Watt’s Link are caused by an implementation that places the Watt’s Link pivot point directly on the differential cover. The problems with an axle mounted pivot point are that the roll center moves with the axle, which unlike a Panhard bar axle is at least is now traveling perfectly vertically vs. the slight left/right arc as is the case with an optimized Panhard Bar. The other problems unique to the PJ Watt’s Link are the fact that the PJ Watt’s Link weights at least 300% more than the much simpler and lighter Adjustable Steeda Panhard Bar and adds some additional unsprung weight (though minmal) to the S197's already heavy live axle. Additionally NVH can be a significant issue with some differential mounted Watt's Link pivots due to the potential for a additional rear-end axle noise being piped into the chassis through the Saleen PJ Edition Watt's Link NVH is minimal. The lateral location is not any better than an upgraded Panhard Bar and may actually be worse due to the use of twice as many polyurethane bushings, which adds more potential for lateral play. But Saleen’s PJ Watt’s Link does improve the left/right handling difference issues of the lightweight and obviously far simpler Steeda Adjustable Panhard Bar setup.
The Pahnard Bar’s weaknesses are 1) roll center moves up and to the right when turning one direction and moves down and to the left when turning the other direction causing an inconsistent handling feel, 2) the rear axle moves laterally slightly as the suspension moves through its travel (the standard length Panhard bar moves the axle 0.12" for 6" of rear suspension travel) 3) can cause a jacking effect if not optimized.
Steeda Adjustable Panhard Bar and HD Panhard Bar Support Brace, improves handling feel and driver sensitivity, improves lateral location under load with minimal additional NVH. The Steeda HD Panhard Bar Support Brace helps stabilize the chassis Panhard Bar mounting point and spreads cornering loads into both sides of chassis to improve long-term reliability of the mount location. This is an adjustable Panhard bar that allows correct centering of the rear axle in the chassis. Even if your car is not lowered your can improve rear axle centering and 4-wheel alignment with an adjustable Panhard bar. Not to sound like a broken record but this is the single most important area you can improve at the rear of the car to improve handling and cornering feel after dampers and springs.
There are a couple of other little gems I have not mentioned yet because you are not building a racecar but I feel you should know about them. Steeda has released their long awaited Competition Adjustable Panhard Bar and Griggs has released the impressive GR40 Watt's Link. What sets these new adjustable competition part oreinted pieces apart and at the top of the list is that S197 chassis owners now have race level adjustable Panhard bar and Watt's link rear suspensions that not only can be adjusted for axle shift but can also be adjusted to suit the driver or track conditions by changing the rear roll center height. These are really intended to be racecars pieces due to the much higher levels of NVH that the spherical bearings will produce. Rear roll center height just like at the front of the car determines how much natural mechanical resistance to body roll the car has due to the suspension’s mechanical design and geometry. The ability to adjust rear roll center height gives the chassis tuner a much broader range to work with when tuning chassis handling balance.
New Flash, Steeda Watt's link prototypes seen in Steeda R&D workshop and confirmed by Steeda. This rumored part has been around for a while but Steeda is getting ready to test a prototype adjustable Watt's link for the S197 chassis! No news yet but keep looking for it on Steeda's site!
CONTINUED...
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 3/25/2008 4:23:34 PM >
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 9/17/2007 9:18:56 PM
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F1Fan
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PART 8
Rear Axle Location
Personally, I like the Steeda Adjustable Lower Control Arms and have installed them in my own car. For a handling and suspension geek like me, they are the only choice because they offer the ability to adjust the rear axle axis to parallel the front axle axis eliminating dogtracking. Most undamaged S197 chassis do not need this adjustment but if you need it nothing short of a couple of pulls on the frame jig can fix this problem unless you have a pair of adjustable LCA’s installed. But for most people Steeda Fixed Tubular LCA’s are the best option. I like these parts for their strength and lighter weight over BMR's mild steel parts. Fixed length is good for this use because you will be able to set the pinion angle using the UCA in the Steeda Comp UCA/UCA mount kit AND you will not be able to screw up your thrust angle by setting one lower control arm longer/shorter than the other. If NVH, stealth or cost is an issue, you may want to seriously consider using a pair of FRPP GT500 LCA's. The FRPP GT500 LCA’s are a heavy-duty version of the stock S197GT LCA's with higher durometer rubber bushings. The FRPP sourced GT500 LCA’s are nearly as good as any of the third party tubular LCA’s with poly bushing but without the noise penalty and are adequate for any normally aspirated S197GT. The downside to the FRPP GT500 LCA’s is that they are slightly heavier than most third party tubular LCA’s but they are not any heavier than the stock S197GT LCA’s they replace. Whatever you do not buy billet LCA’s from anybody no matter how pretty they are! IMO all of the billet suspension parts being produced are fad items. This is the biggest rip off after strut tie bars and cost about twice as much as a tubular part which work just as well if not better than the billet equivalent. Billet LCA’s do not work any better than the common lightweight tubular pieces and they do not stay pretty very long on daily drivers due to the constant media blasting they get from road debris like dirt, sand and gravel. The only thing billet LCA’s have over a fixed tubular LCA is that they usually have been cut out allowing the parking brake cable to pass through them like the stock stamped steel pieces.
Steeda Comp/Street UCA with HD UCA mount. This is a great new re-designed and re-engineered part from Steeda and has the advantages of improved anti-squat adjustment (sideview instant center), geometry to give you more traction from a dig and power out of corners sooner. The included heavy-duty UCA mount in chrome-moly is twice as thick as the stock stamped piece, much stronger and stiffens the chassis under it. This massive part improves location, long-term mount reliability and offers an alternate upper control arm adjustment point to increase anti-squat. This means you can set your LCA’s in the best handling position on the LCA relocation brackets and still achieve good anti-squat characteristics by using the new UCA mount’s alternate UCA pickup point. The new, longer adjustable control arm gives you options in pinion angle, reduces pinion angle changes throughout the axle’s range of movement and reduces brake induced wheel hop a little bit. Wait you say, I did not lower the car so the pinion angle didn't change. True enough but you have altered the bushing hardness for less movement at the LCA’s and UCA mount and you now need less pinion angle. This part may add some very slight additional noise from the rear-end if you don’t already have a performance UCA with poly bushings. However, with the improved 3-piece bushings, the NVH is less than the older two-piece polyurethane bushing designs and in any case the additional NVH is very minor. If you are into NVH, you can also buy the race version with spherical bearings but don’t say I didn’t warn you about the increased noise levels. There is no other product or combination of products that you can buy off the shelf that does all of the things right that the new Steeda Comp/Street UCA/UCA mount kit does all in one box. If you want the best handling and performance UCA on the market this is the one to buy. Of course, it is not cheap but there is nothing like it available.
Anyway there you have it. Please post your ideas and comments.
Cheers!
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 10/10/2007 12:17:36 PM >
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 10/16/2007 6:22:47 AM
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Lito
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After reading all this and personal past experiences I got to this final conclusion, just want to share and read comments.
The goal is to keep the car totally streetable, but be possible to enjoy it at the track. I don´t want to lower the car too much because of road conditions down here.
So this is what got up so far.
Springs: H&R Sports, the pair of springs I found that lowers the less are the steedas and the H&R, chose the latter because they are progressive, so I expect a better ride with them.
Bars: Steeda´s front adj bar set to its soft postition at first and the steeda's rear competition bar, I'm getting staggered wheels and tires and loved my fox when I finally got rid of the the understeer with a MM adj rear bar set to almost full. Even considering on not getting the front bar at all.
Shocks: Tokicos D-spec, never had tokicos on a car, tried from simplest bilstein to koni double adj yellows, read that they are best suited for my car, but mostly combined with a steeda spring set, maybe I'll ruin them by using H&R?
Extras:
- Steeda's adj PB and brace with bushings, I love MM but want to stay away from rods on this car. Less the NVH at minimum.
- Steeda's bump steer kit
- Steeda's strut mounts, I'm not sure of this, I'm between this and the MM camber/caster plates, for what I've read, steeda has more camber, no caster and bushings. MM has less camber but has caster and bearings. So I'm not decide on this yet.
What do you think?
Thanks all.
_____________________________
TNS LPP TSO
Alloy '07 GT in Venezuela
Kooks LT catted X-pipe Pypes mid mufflers
Steeda's CAI, pulleys and CMCV.
Brenspeed 95oct tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Ftc82mT7I
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 10/16/2007 11:06:06 AM
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F1Fan
Posts: 1281
Joined: 3/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lito
After reading all this and personal past experiences I got to this final conclusion, just want to share and read comments.
The goal is to keep the car totally streetable, but be possible to enjoy it at the track. I don´t want to lower the car too much because of road conditions down here.
So this is what got up so far.
Springs: H&R Sports, the pair of springs I found that lowers the less are the steedas and the H&R, chose the latter because they are progressive, so I expect a better ride with them.
Bars: Steeda´s front adj bar set to its soft postition at first and the steeda's rear competition bar, I'm getting staggered wheels and tires and loved my fox when I finally got rid of the the understeer with a MM adj rear bar set to almost full. Even considering on not getting the front bar at all.
Shocks: Tokicos D-spec, never had tokicos on a car, tried from simplest bilstein to koni double adj yellows, read that they are best suited for my car, but mostly combined with a steeda spring set, maybe I'll ruin them by using H&R?
Extras:
- Steeda's adj PB and brace with bushings, I love MM but want to stay away from rods on this car. Less the NVH at minimum.
- Steeda's bump steer kit
- Steeda's strut mounts, I'm not sure of this, I'm between this and the MM camber/caster plates, for what I've read, steeda has more camber, no caster and bushings. MM has less camber but has caster and bearings. So I'm not decide on this yet.
What do you think?
Thanks all.
Hi Lito,
Some of my thoughts and information you may find useful.
To select a spring based on the marketing folk's claim that a progressive spring rides better or any other spring design technology is a poor strategy, pick your springs based on application or use and ride height just as a suspension engineer would. A progressive spring is no better riding than a comperable linear rate spring, spring rate is spring rate is spring rate. The way progressive springs work is that they are typically wound with two different sets of coil spacings which for a given wire size determines spring rate. As a progressive spring is compressed the softer end of the spring (side with more coils per inch on axis), starts to compress until the softer coils are fully compressed and stacked up in coil bind. Coil bind means that part of the spring is in essence a solid piece of steel and cannot compress any more. As you continue to compress the spring the spring rate increases sharply to the next higher spring rate section of the spring once the soft inital spring travel is used up. All of the progressive spring designs I have seen on the market using a single piece of wire are designed using only two spring rates with a fairly sharp transition to what is commonly called the working spring rate. The working spring rate is called the working spring rate because this is the rate that the spring effectively uses to hold the car up or "suspend" the car. Ideally a progressive spring rate design would be working someplace in the transistion zone betwen the softer rate and the harder rate. This is highly dependant on vehicle weight, if the car is too light the car is always working in the soft end of th spring. If the car is too heavy the spring is always working in the secondary spring rate zone. With the very limited travel of modern cars this means that for a progressive spring design to work well the springs need the vehicle weight to be precisely mathed to the spring to keep the car working in the transition zone between the lower and higher rate zone of the spring. Unfortunately no production vehicles are made to the exact same weight and this variability is only made worse with the addition of larger wheels and tires, passengers, larger stereos, and body kits. There is in essence not a lot a spring maker can do to make a progressive spring work well and control the effective working range of the progressive spring. For a street car the only real purpose a progressive spring design has it to allow the spring designer to easily control ride height of the vehicle within a certain range for a range of given vehicle weights and to keep the springs fully seated at full droop to prevent the springs from coming out of their seats.
Regarding anti-roll bar options, you need to consider the very high likelyhood that with your staggered wheel and tire fittment your car will need some handling balance tuning once the wheels, tires and suspension are in place. Without an adjustable anti-roll bar you are not going to have this option unless you modify your stock anti-roll bar ends to allow for adjustment capability. But this is not ideal as when you lowerd the car you also lowered the front roll center which effectively reduced the front-end's resistence to roll. Unless you plan to corrct this change in geomtery you will find the 10% stiffer 36mm bar a useful thing to have along with the ability at adjust the front roll rate relative to the non-adjustable rear roll rate. My suggestions where cost is not as big an issue as handling balance and grip is to buy Steeda's adjustable font anti-roll bar and their Competition rear anti-roll bar with the billet links to eek all you can out of that rear bar. Start with the front bar in the middle postion, you may find that it works best for you especially if this is a street driven car andyou drive it in the rain.
Don't worry about the Tokico D-Spec adjustable struts and dampers, they are not like the lesser quality struts and dampers of the other lines they still sell here in the states. The D-Specs are the good stuf that traditionally is held back for Japanese domestic market consumption only. Japan has a long history of manufacturing consummer goods that are "better" and then keeping them for domestic market consumption only! This is true for cars, car parts, cameras, high-end audio gear etc. the Tokico D-Spec struts and dampers are the first time I've seen a Japanese company send us the same level of quality in a product designated as a not for export item. The damping was developed and specified by Steeda here in the USA so we know these damping rates are for US specific cars and not some export version of the car. I have been running what appear to be final engineering samples of the D-Specs for well over two years and have had them in and out of the car several times over the last couple of years while I played with my suspension. I recently had the struts out of the car to install a new set of springs and the struts looked tight and dry with none of the usuall weeping and dirt accumulation that indicates oil leakage. I wasn't even going to bother to wipe them off but I felt compelled to do so as usual. The shop towels came away clean with no oil so I'm pretty impressed with the D-Specs so far. We used to take in literally tons of Tokico struts and dampers under warranty but these are different and show a serious level of performance and quality commitment from Tokico. Don't worry about blowing the Tokico dampers out with the H&R Sport springs as they are not very stiff. Eibach's Pro-Kit and Steeda Competition springs are stiffer than the H&R Sport springs and Steeda is using D-Spec struts in their race coilovers with much higher spring rate
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 10/18/2007 6:37:49 AM
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Lito
Posts: 261
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
Hi Lito,
Some of my thoughts and information you may find useful.
To select a spring based on the marketing folk's claim that a progressive spring rides better or any other spring design technology is a poor strategy, pick your springs based on application or use and ride height just as a suspension engineer would. A progressive spring is no better riding than a comperable linear rate spring, spring rate is spring rate is spring rate. The way progressive springs work is that they are typically wound with two different sets of coil spacings which for a given wire size determines spring rate. As a progressive spring is compressed the softer end of the spring (side with more coils per inch on axis), starts to compress until the softer coils are fully compressed and stacked up in coil bind. Coil bind means that part of the spring is in essence a solid piece of steel and cannot compress any more. As you continue to compress the spring the spring rate increases sharply to the next higher spring rate section of the spring once the soft inital spring travel is used up. All of the progressive spring designs I have seen on the market using a single piece of wire are designed using only two spring rates with a fairly sharp transition to what is commonly called the working spring rate. The working spring rate is called the working spring rate because this is the rate that the spring effectively uses to hold the car up or "suspend" the car. Ideally a progressive spring rate design would be working someplace in the transistion zone betwen the softer rate and the harder rate. This is highly dependant on vehicle weight, if the car is too light the car is always working in the soft end of th spring. If the car is too heavy the spring is always working in the secondary spring rate zone. With the very limited travel of modern cars this means that for a progressive spring design to work well the springs need the vehicle weight to be precisely mathed to the spring to keep the car working in the transition zone between the lower and higher rate zone of the spring. Unfortunately no production vehicles are made to the exact same weight and this variability is only made worse with the addition of larger wheels and tires, passengers, larger stereos, and body kits. There is in essence not a lot a spring maker can do to make a progressive spring work well and control the effective working range of the progressive spring. For a street car the only real purpose a progressive spring design has it to allow the spring designer to easily control ride height of the vehicle within a certain range for a range of given vehicle weights and to keep the springs fully seated at full droop to prevent the springs from coming out of their seats.
Regarding anti-roll bar options, you need to consider the very high likelyhood that with your staggered wheel and tire fittment your car will need some handling balance tuning once the wheels, tires and suspension are in place. Without an adjustable anti-roll bar you are not going to have this option unless you modify your stock anti-roll bar ends to allow for adjustment capability. But this is not ideal as when you lowerd the car you also lowered the front roll center which effectively reduced the front-end's resistence to roll. Unless you plan to corrct this change in geomtery you will find the 10% stiffer 36mm bar a useful thing to have along with the ability at adjust the front roll rate relative to the non-adjustable rear roll rate. My suggestions where cost is not as big an issue as handling balance and grip is to buy Steeda's adjustable font anti-roll bar and their Competition rear anti-roll bar with the billet links to eek all you can out of that rear bar. Start with the front bar in the middle postion, you may find that it works best for you especially if this is a street driven car andyou drive it in the rain.
Don't worry about the Tokico D-Spec adjustable struts and dampers, they are not like the lesser quality struts and dampers of the other lines they still sell here in the states. The D-Specs are the good stuf that traditionally is held back for Japanese domestic market consumption only. Japan has a long history of manufacturing consummer goods that are "better" and then keeping them for domestic market consumption only! This is true for cars, car parts, cameras, high-end audio gear etc. the Tokico D-Spec struts and dampers are the first time I've seen a Japanese company send us the same level of quality in a product designated as a not for export item. The damping was developed and specified by Steeda here in the USA so we know these damping rates are for US specific cars and not some export version of the car. I have been running what appear to be final engineering samples of the D-Specs for well over two years and have had them in and out of the car several times over the last couple of years while I played with my suspension. I recently had the struts out of the car to install a new set of springs and the struts looked tight and dry with none of the usuall weeping and dirt accumulation that indicates oil leakage. I wasn't even going to bother to wipe them off but I felt compelled to do so as usual. The shop towels came away clean with no oil so I'm pretty impressed with the D-Specs so far. We used to take in literally tons of Tokico struts and dampers under warranty but these are different and show a serious level of performance and quality commitment from Tokico. Don't worry about blowing the Tokico dampers out with the H&R Sport springs as they are not very stiff. Eibach's Pro-Kit and Steeda Competition springs are stiffer than the H&R Sport springs and Steeda is using D-Spec struts in their race coilovers with much higher spring rates than even their Comp springs with no problems so the soft H&R street springs should produce no problems.
Your list of extras is a good one. The Steeda adjustable Panhard bar and HD PB brace combined do and excellent job of locating the rear axle laterally in the chassis. I also highly recommend the Steeda or Baer Bumpsteer kits, the difference is subtle on a car lowered this little but you will appreciate it when the road is undulating and in the corners particularly if you are a sensitive driver who likes the feedback the steering wheel can give you. If NVH is an issue you the Steeda HD Strut mounts are a better choice particularly whwn you consider that th stock S197 chassis has more caster than you could add using any of the C&C plates in an SN95 chassis. I also suggest that you combine the Steeda HD Strut mounts with the Steeda Billet Camber Plate system so you can crank in enough camber for better front end grip. With such a tall ride height you will not be able to get enough negative camber into the front tires even with the Steeda HD Strut mounts cranked all the way AND a set of 1.75 degree Camber bolts from Eibach/SPC or BMR. When I went pulled the Eibach Pro-Kit springs out the car I expected to loose some negative camber but I found out that the BEST I could do was about -0.89 degrees on both sides when the Steeda HD Strut mounts and Eibach camber bolt kits were cranked up all the way. For a mild street car
_____________________________
TNS LPP TSO
Alloy '07 GT in Venezuela
Kooks LT catted X-pipe Pypes mid mufflers
Steeda's CAI, pulleys and CMCV.
Brenspeed 95oct tune.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_Ftc82mT7I
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RE: High Performance Without Lowering PART 1 - 11/3/2007 8:04:16 AM
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timothyrw
Posts: 559
Joined: 9/1/2006
From: Indy
Status: online
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have since lowered my car. see sig and post:
http://www.mustangforums.com/m_4833261/tm.htm
< Message edited by timothyrw -- 3/27/2008 8:34:26 PM >
_____________________________
JLT2 w/Brenspeed Tune | DSpecs | Steeda: Ultralites/Adj PHB/Brace/Strut Brace | 18" ASA AR2''''s | Potenza RE760 Sports
Boomtube Crew Member
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 12/2/2007 6:12:00 AM
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wasvette
Posts: 277
Joined: 12/6/2006
Status: offline
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When I do the spring install I will be installing new struts in the front. So, I shouldn't need to compress the springs and remove the stock struts if I have:
- New struts
- New GT500 upper strut mounts
- Rubber isolator pictured below
IS THERE ANYTHING I'M MISSING THAT WOULD NORMALLY BE SCAVENGED FROM THE ORIGINAL SET UP AND REUSED? IF SO, I NEED TO GET PRIOR TO INSTALL. THANKS!
I'm assuming I can get this part only from the dealer.
Thumbnail Image
 Attachment (1)
_____________________________
2006 Black GT Manual- 120,000 Trouble-Free Miles! - Steeda CAI w/SCT VMP 93 Tune - Steeda UDPs - Hurst Shifter - Steeda Sport Springs - Steeda Pro Action Struts/Shocks - Steeda Adj. Panhard - Steeda Rear Sway Bar
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 12/2/2007 10:09:24 AM
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F1Fan
Posts: 1281
Joined: 3/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: wasvette
When I do the spring install I will be installing new struts in the front. So, I shouldn't need to compress the springs and remove the stock struts if I have:
- New struts
- New GT500 upper strut mounts
- Rubber isolator pictured below
IS THERE ANYTHING I'M MISSING THAT WOULD NORMALLY BE SCAVENGED FROM THE ORIGINAL SET UP AND REUSED? IF SO, I NEED TO GET PRIOR TO INSTALL. THANKS!
I'm assuming I can get this part only from the dealer.
Thumbnail Image
Hi wasvette,
What you have to reuse depends on the strut/damper kit and sport spring set you buy. Some sport springs come with isolators installed and some suggest that you reuse the isolators from the stock springs. Some struts come with the correct bumpstops and some require that you reuse the stock bumpstops and strut rod covers, it all depends on what you buy. I suggest that you get the struts and springs in you hands and read the instruction sheets and make a list of the parts they tell you you need to reuse and just go to the local Ford dealer and order them. The GT500 strut bearings are a good option but the Steeda adjustable strut bearings are a better if more expensive way to go. In addition to never failing again like the stock Ford strut bearings do you will get some camber adjustment and more precision steering and feel.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 12/3/2007 5:45:09 AM
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wasvette
Posts: 277
Joined: 12/6/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
quote:
ORIGINAL: wasvette
When I do the spring install I will be installing new struts in the front. So, I shouldn't need to compress the springs and remove the stock struts if I have:
- New struts
- New GT500 upper strut mounts
- Rubber isolator pictured below
IS THERE ANYTHING I'M MISSING THAT WOULD NORMALLY BE SCAVENGED FROM THE ORIGINAL SET UP AND REUSED? IF SO, I NEED TO GET PRIOR TO INSTALL. THANKS!
I'm assuming I can get this part only from the dealer.
Thumbnail Image
Hi wasvette,
What you have to reuse depends on the strut/damper kit and sport spring set you buy. Some sport springs come with isolators installed and some suggest that you reuse the isolators from the stock springs. Some struts come with the correct bumpstops and some require that you reuse the stock bumpstops and strut rod covers, it all depends on what you buy. I suggest that you get the struts and springs in you hands and read the instruction sheets and make a list of the parts they tell you you need to reuse and just go to the local Ford dealer and order them. The GT500 strut bearings are a good option but the Steeda adjustable strut bearings are a better if more expensive way to go. In addition to never failing again like the stock Ford strut bearings do you will get some camber adjustment and more precision steering and feel.
HTH!
Thanks F1Fan - My parts are a used Eibach Pro-Kit so no instructions and Steeda Non-adjustable pro action struts.
So, based on those parts, do you know which parts I'll need from the dealer? They don't even show any isolators, etc. in their exploded view parts schematics...Also, I know the Steeda pieces are awesome but I just can't do $300 for that portion of the job...
Thanks again.
Kevin
_____________________________
2006 Black GT Manual- 120,000 Trouble-Free Miles! - Steeda CAI w/SCT VMP 93 Tune - Steeda UDPs - Hurst Shifter - Steeda Sport Springs - Steeda Pro Action Struts/Shocks - Steeda Adj. Panhard - Steeda Rear Sway Bar
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 3/17/2008 10:41:59 PM
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Stoenr
Posts: 3481
Joined: 5/21/2005
From: S.burbs Chicago
Status: offline
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Wow, I read this thread again, great read, again.
Wheres F1 been!
I just want to add and comment since my early post, wow that was a long time ago. Over 2 years, lol.
Well still on the Roush rear springs only, but slowly have upgraded.
Since then
ADJ. LCA's
ADJ. panhard.
Tires
255/45/18
285/40/18
Now on the way to me, or on my shelf waiting install is
UCA,
LCA relocation brackets.
Eibach pro kit
D-specs
Steeda Bumpsteer.
Funny all that after re-reading early post.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stoenr
I just cant justify pulling out perfectly good shocks and struts to put these tokico Dspecs on. Maybe after 40-60,000 miles on the car I could see doing it. But to spend all that money just to get a bouncy/harsh ride seems pointless at this point. But people on here make alot more than me and can toss money around like that I guess.
quote:
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
Dude!
That's the problem, the stock S197 struts and dampers are NOT perfectly good by any means! They suck, but if you don't know any better they feel fine a lot of the time on smooth roads. The problem is that the stock Ford struts and rear dampers are way over dampened on the compression stroke and this is why the car is so bouncy and tends to hobby horse on certain stretches of highway usually made of concrete. you don't know what you are missing in terms of improved ride motion and body control by not installing a set of Tokico D-Specs in your car now. The D-Specs put the stock struts and dampers to shame both in ride and control! Find a club member with them installed and you will see how good it can be.
Cheers
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stoenr
You are absolutely correct in that matter. And I will find a member to go for a ride in with. But hard to justify that kind of cash for me. Going to take alot to impress me to go that route. I guess im stubborn from what my old man told me when i was 16,17 when I got my 95 t-bird and was interested in making it sound nice, he said. If you cut off a perfectly good exhuast system, Ill cut your hands off
Im 31 now, and he likes how my car sounds and asked me if I have tuned her already, lol. Amazing how parents can influence you.
everyone has said great things about the tokios, they must be worth it.
_____________________________
WWW.06GT.COM
12.83_107.15
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RE: Lowering your 05/06 Mustang GT - 3/23/2008 10:38:33 PM
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