Engine Oil re-visited
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/25/2005 12:41:32 PM
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Riven02
Posts: 1088
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Fort Worth, Texas
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I'm a Mobil one guys myself
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/25/2005 1:05:41 PM
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jrrhd73must
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From: Georgia
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There was a court case a few years back between Mobil 1 and Casterol. Casterol was marketing a further refined dino oil (hydrogen infused to remove the paraffin wax) as synthetic. Our Courts decided that since it was not really regular oil they could call it what they want. To my knowledge it is NOT synthetic, i.e. it did not start with a lab created base. There are quite a few of these synthetic posers out there. Shell Rotella is another one - the diesel guys love this stuff and swear it is a synthetic. I contacted shell and have e-mails from their engineers stating that they start with dino oil and infuse it with hydrogen.
I would recommend that you do not run it longer than about 5k, since I doubt it is a true synthetic.
BTW I use Amsoil because it is cheaper than redline. As far as big names, Mobil 1, Redline and Amsoil are all TRUE synthetics.
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/25/2005 1:24:45 PM
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Soaring
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Thanks for that info John. I'll yank that crap out ASAP. I use Redline and Amsoil, but got in a bind for time, and put that crap in. Out she comes......And, BTW, I never run more than 3K miles on an oil change, no matter what brand or kind it is. I'm from the old school, and can't unteach myself. Dirty oil is dirty oil to me. No matter if it is synthetic or not.
< Message edited by Soaring -- 8/25/2005 1:27:31 PM >
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/25/2005 2:41:34 PM
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jrrhd73must
Posts: 508
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From: Georgia
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Due to your knowledge thus far demonstrated I have the utmost respect for your opinion. However, I will beg to differ with you on the oil change.
I am a mechanical engineer by trade. I work electrical, software and aerospace also. With aircraft all we run is synthetic and we NEVER chage at a specific hour interval. We sample the oil. If the oil sample comes back bad, we will drain, flush and reinstall. I have a 2000 F250 with 20k miles on the Amsoil right now. I have been doing 5k oil samples and changing the filter and adding 2qts (it is a big filter). All of the samples have been very good, much better than when I used to run dino oil in it. I am goign to change the trucks oil at 25k. All of my other cars are on the 20k plan. I change the filter at 10k, and the oil once a year or at 20k whichever comes first. I figure if it is good enough for aircraft - whoose operation is much more critical - it is good enough for an auto.
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/25/2005 2:55:46 PM
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Soaring
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I hear you John, and I respect your opinion. I have no knowledge about aircraft engines, so I can't respond to that, but again, I am old school. Without your ability to have your oil tested at a lab, I will not run the chance of having engine failure due to dirty oil. Yes, I do fully understand that the synthetic oils advertise a longer time between changes, such as 5K miles instead of the old 3K miles with dino, and I sometimes push the 3K limit a bit further than I feel comfortable with, but certainly not anywhere near 20K as you have suggested. IMO, there is no filter available for our old cars that will filter out the crap that enters into these old engines that will be safe for the engines for that amount of miles. We can certainly agree to disagree, but on this topic, I totally disagree with you regarding running oil and filters for that many miles without fear of mechanical breakdown. Now, with the 03 Mach I, I push the limits of oil and filter changes a bit further. Normally, with the Mach, the oil and the filter gets changed at right at 5K.
Here is a good site which addresses this issue. Synthetic oils break down and accepts all the acids as do dino oils. http://www.nordicgroup.us/oil.htm#Oil%20Change%20Intervals
< Message edited by Soaring -- 8/25/2005 3:48:44 PM >
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/25/2005 3:50:07 PM
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Scott H.
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Hi John,
Who does your testing (on your personal truck) and what are they testing for?
Do they test the compositon of the oil, or are they testing for metals?
I'm interested in your input, as working for a mfg we look at more than just wear, especially when it comes to things like acidic build up, anti-foaming, viscosity breakdown, temperature characteristics, etc. Most comercial testing facilities look at specific metals (type and content level), but not the actual properties of the oil.
Did they ask you for a sample of new oil, or did you just provide the name and mfg?
For the cost of sampling, I agree that it is a great way to go. Especially in fleets or industrial applications. Not only does it save labor and materials, it also helps save our environment (although with the ease of recycling that is becoming more and more a mute point).
Thanks,
Scott
_____________________________
Scott Heath
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2400202
New year, new projects...
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/25/2005 11:31:43 PM
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v6stangracer
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From: United States
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well i may not be a engineer or aerogenious but i do have to work in the quick lube at work sometimes, and everything ive read or heard says mobil one is just as good as ams and royal purple and red line and all that, and while draining u can see a noticable differance in the cars that have went to long w/o an oil change and the ones that are looking good, the synthetic cars that change every 6k never seem to have a problem but to much after that u start to see darker nastier oil, just a "lube jock" opinion
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/26/2005 8:21:40 AM
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jrrhd73must
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There are three labs I know of Blackstone, Oil Analyzers, one in Atlanta (I can't remember the name), but they are the cheapest, and then the military labs.
I have used Oil Analyzers and Blackstone. They check for trace metals, and for some of the oil properties such as calcium, phosophorous, zinc, the also check for fuel, water, soot and give a viscosity reading. They also give you the TBN - Total Base Number - detergents left in the oil, NITR and oxidation.
Soaring: I don't suggest you use oil 20k - My truck has 20k on the oil. I am going 25k and then I will change it. I added a dual bypass kit, so I am filtering the oil to 1 micron (conventional filters only filter to 30 microns). My truck holds 19 quarts - so it is a real adventure and significant cost to change oil. I know some people with 100K and 145k on their oil with my set up. I have read reports that using dino for 3k and synthetic with the bypass, the internal engine components look exactly the same when compared. I am trying to reduce wear on the truck and at the same time save a little money and a whole lot of time. I would tell you that at 5k Mobil 1, Redline and Amsoil all look about like they have been driven only a thousand miles as compared to dino oil. I have spent some money doing oil analysis to not screw up my truck.
Additionally, although I think that Mobil 1 is great oil, I had Mobil 1 Syn in my Harley, it rean 10 degree hotter than with Amsoil, at the Mobil 1 would turn a much darker color in the same amount of miles. Hence I am sold on Amsoil.
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/26/2005 9:03:30 AM
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Soaring
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Now I see why you are running that far on an oil change. 19 quarts, huh? Wow, that's some mega bucks to change. And, like you, I am also sold on Amsoil and on Redline, both of which I think are the premium synthetics on the market. I haven't had much experience with Royal Purple though, so can't make judgement there.
Here's something else I don't quite understand. Ford says to change the oil in my 03 Mach1 every 5000 miles or every 6 months, whichever comes first. Well, I park my Mach for much of the winter, and can't see draining perfectly good oil that hasn't been used, just because it has been in the oil pan for 6 months. Well, they are telling me that condensation gathers in the pan, and oil and water don't mix. I understand that theory, but is it really true?
< Message edited by Soaring -- 8/26/2005 9:11:09 AM >
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/26/2005 11:30:20 AM
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73Cleveland
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This is sure more than I had ever heard about synthetics before. Lots of very interesting input here! I've only used Havoline 10-40 in mine. I'm not running a lot of mods like most of you guys are.
What do you guys think about oil filters? I use only Motorcraft on mine. Do you guys that use synthetic use other filters? Do you change the filters without changing the oil?
_____________________________
73 Mach1
351 Cleveland 4V
2nd owner
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/26/2005 11:56:35 AM
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Soaring
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I use Amsoil filters, and change the filter every time I change the oil. I probably could just change the filter at 5K and run the oil another few thou, but I am resistant to that ideology. The Motorcraft and Wix filters are excellent filters, just stay away from Fram.
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/26/2005 1:18:21 PM
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jrrhd73must
Posts: 508
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From: Georgia
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Ahh filters, what a can of worms. The skinny on filters and oil really. There are only a few oil manufacturers in the world, as well as I can think of only three additive makers other than the full synthetic guys. So everyone is buying the oil and additives from the same people. Some oil labelers, Casteroil, for one establishes a minimum standard. Any company can submit their oil with an additive package and if it meets that standard they will paste Casterol on it.
Filters. There are approximately 8 or so manufacturers of filters. Motocraft does not make their own filters, the are actually purolator filters. Go buy a purolator filter and you will usually save a couple of bucks over the motocraft. I am semi-familiar with auto filters. Most of my filter experience comes from Harleys. Fram filters although they have decent filtering layers, use cardboard on each end to secure them. I can't prove this, however I think that once the cardboard gets wet it cannot keep the contaminents from flowing back into my engine. The purolater is a decent filter. I think the Napa filter, which is made by Wix is better. Then probably Amsoil filters, which are made by donaldson. And then the K&N. The K&N has the most filtering area of any filter. I have not cut apart a Mobil 1 or a Deutesh yet. I will not use a K&N oil filter on my Harley becuase it takes 15 PSI to activate the bypass valve. My engine only produces 17 PSI from the factory. Should the oil pump not be pumping at capacity, and something has blocked up the K&N filter, I could be running the bike dry. So I won't use them on my bike.
I saw a study by consumer reports on dino oil. They said that at 3000 miles the average car, the oil looses none to 1 percent of it viscosity. At 4000 miles the oil looses 2-3 percent. At 5000 miles the oil looses 8-11 percent. So I used to always change my dino oil out at 4k miles. I changed the Mobil 1 syn out at 6k when I sued it. I run amsoil 10k-15k. At 10k my diesels Amsoil was still carmel color, when with dino oil in 2k it was black. BTW with Amsoil I change the filter at every 5k and add some oil (usually 1 qt for cars and 2 qts for my truck).
< Message edited by jrrhd73must -- 8/26/2005 1:22:13 PM >
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/26/2005 1:40:55 PM
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Soaring
Posts: 17565
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Ok, I just got home from teaching, so I am ready to discuss something besides music. Let's take a look at how oil filters are constructed, and why some are more expensive than others.
The filter media materials have changed over the years.
Early designs used steel wool, wire meshes, metal screens, etc.
Latter bulk cotton or various woven fabrics like linen were used.
When disposable filters became popular, cellulose and papers were used to minimize production costs.
Finally "synthetic" media oil filters were introduced where special man made fibers are utilized.
Fiberglass and metal fabrics are also sometimes used for oil filtration.
Today, most low-cost disposable spin-on oil filters use cellulose filter media. Better quality oil filters use synthetic media, while top end oil filter use "MicroGlass" or extremely fine metal mesh.
Now, what filtering media do you prefer? Me??? I prefer the microglass. Try to find that in a purolator. Read about the Amsoil filter here. " AMSOIL Super Duty Oil Filter
The AMSOIL Super Duty Oil Filter is a full flow oil filter designed for extended drain intervals and sever service. Its rugged filter body contains a high-tech blended filter media composed of cellulose, synthetic fibers and glass fibers. This sets the Super Duty apart from conventional filters in capacity, efficiency and service life.
The AMSOIL Super Duty Oil Filter's rugged construction and high-tech media make it ideal for motorists who extend their oil drain intervals, drive hard, want to make their engines last or simply want the best filtration possible."
< Message edited by Soaring -- 8/26/2005 1:57:06 PM >
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/26/2005 2:13:50 PM
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jrrhd73must
Posts: 508
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Soaring, I guess I was not clear. I am an Amsoil believer. I really prefer Amsoil filters. However having cut them apart, there are a few trace fibers of glass in the Amsoil. The K&N looked exactly the same it just had more filtering media. Something like 112 pleates, to Amsoils 103. I still put complete confidence in the Amsoil filters.
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RE: Engine Oil re-visited - 8/26/2005 2:23:44 PM
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73Cleveland
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Looks like I did open the proverbial can of worms!
So it would be best to determine the types of mods (high compression & high operating temps) and oil change intervals to decide on what type of filter?
I doubt I will put more than 1000 miles a year on my Mach but I still want to protect it. I change oil & filter twice a year (Havoline 10-40 & Motorcraft filter). I'll be looking at the K&n & Amisol filters to see how they compare.
I'm a beleiver in the old commercial that said "You can pay me now or pay me later (later meaning a major engine overhaul). I think Fram was the sponser of that.
_____________________________
73 Mach1
351 Cleveland 4V
2nd owner
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