You should get a pretty good idea of how it's oilin while at idle.
You should also take the opportunity to re-check the valve lash. What are you setting them at?
You mentioned in an earlier post about not being able to adjust the dist cause it was hitting the intake. Did you pull that and move it back a tooth or two so you can adjust it further if needed?
hi guys, haven't done the check yet, since i'm still looking for a piece of material that 'll hold up when soaked with oil... thinking about a piece of flange sealant paper or the likes (klingerite), and then a thin piece of lucite over it to keep the oil from going all over the place, just in case...
about the valve lash, i've got hydraulic lifters so i need to set a certain preload, and i've got adjustable rocker arms so i go about it like comp cams recommends:after setting the cam in the right position for the valve you are about to adjust, take the pushrod between two fingers and then tighten until resistance is felt (zero lash), and then 1/2 more. according to them that should be about 0.030" preload.
if you have a better way please let me know, because this seems very inacurate to me, (and subjective too, what is slight resistance?)
furthermore i did pull the dist. so i can give it up to about 40 degrees advance now... that shouldn't be necessary i hope. i would like to turn the oil pump with an electric drill but i tried to do that with a little socket from a small ratchet wrench kit, and the socket got stuck in the bottom of the dist. hole and i spent a day to get it out; i'll just crank it this time .
_____________________________
69 fastback 302, holley 600, typhoon intake, comp 280H cam and springs, flowtech headers,KB hypereutectic pistons and rings, pertronix ignitor, C4 transmission, ford 9" rear end, now 2.75 but 3.89:1 gears coming its way... http://www.gti-killers.be
Here's what I would do now that you have the dist moved over a couple of teeth. Adjust the timing until you get the best idle. It should run better as you advance it then it will start to run roughly. Retard it until it runs as smoothly as it can & tighten the dist there. That can be fine tuned later.
Does your dist have a vacuum advance? If it does make sure it's hooked to the carb & not the manifold.
Just use use whatever cardboard you have hand. It doesn't have to last too long. You can wrap some plactic from a shopping bag around it if you like. I think you mentioned you had a high-volume oil pump. If the oil squirts to much, you could try draping a rag over the rockers you are not currently adjusting.
I'm assuming you do not have any lifter tapping noise as present.
What I would do at this point after visually checking to make sure it is oiling is to adjust the rockers while the engine is ideling. Loosen each rocker nut until you start to hear a tapping noise then tighten it a half-turn. Do this for each valve.
Just remember to rinse of the engine compartment after the valve covers are bolted back on.
most of them are oiling pretty much the same, but there's not one that really squirts as much as i would have expected them to... then there are a few, like for example exhaust 1 and intake 8 that are barely oiling, i.e. they are getting oil, but it's not getting whipped out of the rockers like on the other ones., funnily, i pulled the wires from the plugs on these cylinders and it does make a little bit of difference, but again not the difference a fully working cylinder would make if you'd pull its wire off...
so i'm guessing that this might be (part of) the problem. so the next step would be to adjust the valve lash with the engine running like you say, but the problem is that the socket i use to adjust the valve lash with (16mm) is just a liiiitle to big to fit in there when it's turning because it touches the insides of the rockers. however, this i will fix by milling the socket off about a millimeter or so tomorrow at work.
for the dist., i did adjust it to as much vacuum as i can get it, but that leaves me with about 30 degrees of advance again. it does have a vacuum advance and it is hooked to the carb (facing the front of the car, left hand side of the primary fuel bowl next to the float level sight plug).
will get right on the milling bit asap and adjust the lash in run. thxs for the info so far.
I wouldnt be overly concerned with a few that are oiling a bit less than the others as long as you do see oil running off the rockers. Were new cam bearings put in during the rebuild?
I wouldn't be concerned about what you see with the timing light. We don't know for sure the marks are still accurate. You want to get it running the best you can by ear. If you have a tach that will also help. I know others use a vacuum guage for this. I've always done it by ear.
I would start adjusting the valve lash on the cylinders you think are weak but do all of them. Remember to loosen them until you hear a tapping noise start. Then slowly tighten them till it just stops tapping. Then give it a half turn after that.
When you put the plugs in, did you use a plug socket with the rubber insert in it? I know some tools may be yarder to come by. Just thinking out loud that maybe they were cracked when they were installed? That's easy to do especially working around headers in a tight space! It does sound like the new ones are working now though.
about the ones that aren't oiling as much as the rest of 'em, i hope that they will give more oil after the adjustments are made at idle. gotta get the socked milled first thing tomorrow.
there were no new cam bearings put in, since installing them apeared to be pretty difficult, and the old ones were in pretty good shape. so were all the bearings by the way, but i did change the rod and main bearings to clevite 77 H series bearings.
the plug socket does have the rubber insert in, and i made a habit of it to screw in the plugs with a piece of rubber tube placed over the end to avoid cracking them. plus, like you say, they are working now because i tested them through grounding 'em against the engine.
hope adjusting the valve lash helps. will post back off coursde afterwards.
about the ones that aren't oiling as much as the rest of 'em, i hope that they will give more oil after the adjustments are made at idle. gotta get the socked milled first thing tomorrow.
there were no new cam bearings put in, since installing them apeared to be pretty difficult, and the old ones were in pretty good shape. so were all the bearings by the way, but i did change the rod and main bearings to clevite 77 H series bearings.
the plug socket does have the rubber insert in, and i made a habit of it to screw in the plugs with a piece of rubber tube placed over the end to avoid cracking them. plus, like you say, they are working now because i tested them through grounding 'em against the engine.
hope adjusting the valve lash helps. will post back off coursde afterwards.
god i hope that helps
I'm thinking they are oiling as well as they will get. It may be enough not to cause any problems tho.
Putting a tube over the end of the plugs sure can help start especially hard to reach plugs. You just have to be careful when tightening them down.
How many miles were on the engine before the rebuild? One or more of the cam bearings could be worn. I agree they are difficult to change especially if you dont have the engine on a stand. Its especially easy to pop the cam plug out the back of the block when trying to change them while the engine is still in the car.
Did you use a plasti-guage to check the oil clearance with the new rod & main bearings? If you did, do you recall what the gaps were?
I sure hope adjusting the valves works for you. If it doesn't, at least once you adjust them, we can eliminate that as a cause of the driveability issues.
sooooo, did the adjustments and lost about a quart of oil doing so, but in the end all the valves were done: it didn't change a thing on the vacuum gauge though, and i haven't had the courage to put it in drive yet, since i'm pretty sure it will stall again... what's more, i loosened them up till i heard the tapping noise, and then i turned them back till it stopped and then a half more, wich was more or less what they were at anyway, give or take a quarter turn. anyway, like you said 73, that wasn't it and now we know...
however, i took the plugs out and they are all nice and working, not wet or fouled, so at least every cylinder is generating power i would say...
next on the agenda is a compression test, but can anyone explain me the difference between a wet and a dry compression test? i have this comp. tester with white pieces of paper that show compression in bars through a needle that moves over the paper (the type that you guys probably all have too), but just 1 problem: it was made for diesel engines so the scale goes to 60 bars (870 psi) and the right fitting is not there to fit the plughole. trying to make something out of an old plug later tonight.
i don't recall the gaps of the plasti-gauge, and the guy that put the block together doesn't either now, but i do know that the crank and the bearings cam together as a package from the grinding shop, so i guess they should be okay...
i'm just wondering, what if they made a horrible mistake in the transmission overhaul shop. how much vacuum should a C4 tranny suck out of the intake manifold? although the vacuum in the manifold is too low for nothing else to be wrong, so it'll probably be something else...
At least the valves being improperly adjusted has been eliminated. I was hoping that would help. But at least we know now.
The plugs all burning correctly is a very good sign.
The dry compression is what you do first. Just attach the comp guage and crank the engine and record the findings for each cylinder.
For the wet test, pump a few squirts of engine oil from a can into each cylinder just before testing that cylinder. Record the findings from all 8 cylinders.
What the wet test does is help seal the piston rings for the test. If you see a large increase with the wet test, it indicates something wrong with the rings. Such as them being too loose.
Let us know what the compression is.
It sounds like you got a new or reground crank. It should have came with the correct bearings then and shouldnt be a problem. It's still a good idea to plasti-guage them when assembling the engine.
If you think there may be a prob with the C4, you can unhook the vacuum line for the modulator valve and plug it at its source. If that fix'es it, then its either a bad modulaqtor valve on the C4 or a line unhooked underneath. At this point it would only take a few minutes to check and would be worth it.
thx for the explanation 73, just trying to find an adaptor to screw into the plughole (ever tried drilling a hole through the white stuff of a sparkplug? 10 drills later.... still no movement ....).
so will post back with the results of the wet and the dry comp test.
just not clear about one thing, when i pull the vacuum line from the manifold to the tranny, i plug it at the manifold. got that. but is it okay to bang it into gear then? or will it just not do anything then?
anyways, this is haunting me day and night now, last night i dreamt that i fell down the engine compartment and got hit in the head by the fan blades .... plus the wife's not too happy with me in the garage 24/7 either....
ps, read your thread on hardened valve seats, i cut my valve seats with the overhaul, because the guy from the machine shop said that putting hardened seats in would be overcostly for the mileage i'd do with it and the price of lead-substitute that u can get in any gas station around here. but he did say that they were not hardened (so in 69 they were still soft if that helps you any...) and he also said never to run without lead substitute (wich i never would have done either, even if they were hardened, just to make sure i got a bit of cushioning on those seats...)
_____________________________
69 fastback 302, holley 600, typhoon intake, comp 280H cam and springs, flowtech headers,KB hypereutectic pistons and rings, pertronix ignitor, C4 transmission, ford 9" rear end, now 2.75 but 3.89:1 gears coming its way... http://www.gti-killers.be
Hope you don't mind if I jump back in here. I just re-read the whole thread, and have a few questions If you wouldn't mind:
1). When you set the timing to max vacuum, what was the vacuum reading? and would the engine rpm increase if you advanced it any more?
2). Can you get your hands on an automotive compression gauge? There is only a 5% variance and I think the diesel gauge will not show this. You should see about 160 psi (about 10.9 Bar)
3). Really a dumb question, and I am stretching for this one. Any chance there is a rag in the intake under the carb?
OK, btw: the white porcelain of the spark plug is mixed with glass, so it is almost as hard as a diamond, but more fragile. I have used a small hammer and a center punch before to break out all the porcelain, but man was it dificult.
I am really begining to think your cam timing is off, but it is so much work to check, Ive been hoping you guys would find something before I suggested pulling off the timing chain cover and rechecking it.
thx for the explanation 73, just trying to find an adaptor to screw into the plughole (ever tried drilling a hole through the white stuff of a sparkplug? 10 drills later.... still no movement ....).
so will post back with the results of the wet and the dry comp test.
just not clear about one thing, when i pull the vacuum line from the manifold to the tranny, i plug it at the manifold. got that. but is it okay to bang it into gear then? or will it just not do anything then?
anyways, this is haunting me day and night now, last night i dreamt that i fell down the engine compartment and got hit in the head by the fan blades .... plus the wife's not too happy with me in the garage 24/7 either....
ps, read your thread on hardened valve seats, i cut my valve seats with the overhaul, because the guy from the machine shop said that putting hardened seats in would be overcostly for the mileage i'd do with it and the price of lead-substitute that u can get in any gas station around here. but he did say that they were not hardened (so in 69 they were still soft if that helps you any...) and he also said never to run without lead substitute (wich i never would have done either, even if they were hardened, just to make sure i got a bit of cushioning on those seats...)
Hi Harald,
Sometimes the smallest things like needing a fitting to check compression can turn into a major pain! Breaking and/or drilling out an old plug is the only good alternative to not having at least one of the rubber tipped compression guages that you just hold over the hole instead of screwing it in. They are not quite as accurate but still give a decent reading.
When you pull the vacuum line for the tranny, you can plug it at the source. You could still shift the car into gear with no problems.
I have an off the wall question. Does your car by chance have an EGR valve? If it did it would be on the back of the carb base plate. These can stick open and cause an engine to die whenever you slow to an idle. I'm not sure what year they made their first appearance but had to ask.
I believe you said or were going to spray carb cleaner around the base of the carb and intake to see if you noticed an increase in idle RPM. Did you do that?
Also, if you do need to eventually remove the timing cover to check the cam/crank timing, you shouldn’t have to remove the oil pan, just the bolts go thru the pan into the timing cover. You will need new pan gaskets to reinstall it though. Just use a sharp knife and cut the end of the side gaskets to fit the exposed pan. Just glue it to the pan well and also put some extra along the seam.
Did you do the rebuild of the engine? I'm wondering if a ridge reamer was used on each of the cylinders. If not, it could have broken some rings during reassembly of the engine.
I'm getting pretty tired so I hope I didn't already ask this but did you try blocking the vacuum line to the power brakes? (If it does have power brakes)
Be really careful around the running engine. Dreams sometimes have a way of coming true! Hopefully you have a fan shroud already in place!
Thanks for the info about the soft seats in the 69. It's starting to look like the early 70's was when the hardened seats really got started.
Let us know what you find out with the compression & checking the vacuum line to the tranny!
< Message edited by 73Cleveland -- 8/12/2005 3:57:08 AM >
Hope you don't mind if I jump back in here. I just re-read the whole thread, and have a few questions If you wouldn't mind:
1). When you set the timing to max vacuum, what was the vacuum reading? and would the engine rpm increase if you advanced it any more?
2). Can you get your hands on an automotive compression gauge? There is only a 5% variance and I think the diesel gauge will not show this. You should see about 160 psi (about 10.9 Bar)
3). Really a dumb question, and I am stretching for this one. Any chance there is a rag in the intake under the carb?
OK, btw: the white porcelain of the spark plug is mixed with glass, so it is almost as hard as a diamond, but more fragile. I have used a small hammer and a center punch before to break out all the porcelain, but man was it dificult.
I am really begining to think your cam timing is off, but it is so much work to check, Ive been hoping you guys would find something before I suggested pulling off the timing chain cover and rechecking it.
Thanks,
Hi Scott,
Yep, we're hoping from the beginning it wouldn't be the cam timing. Poor Harald has been very diligent in checking everything we asked so far. That's why the easy things were checked first. Since we now know the valves are adjusted correctly and allowed to fully open & close, it's more likely to be the cam timing. That's better at least than a cylinder or two showing up with poor compression due to a cracked piston or broken rings.
Yep, the porcelain is pretty hard. The last time I had to break it out was when I was making a "thread chaser" out of an old plug. I broke the electrode out of the end and using a hacksaw and making 2 cuts in the form of a crosshair across the threads, made the thread chaser. It worked great to eliminate carbon from the plug threads. That was an old trick from shop class. Sorry to ramble on!
Yep, the porcelain is pretty hard. The last time I had to break it out was when I was making a "thread chaser" out of an old plug. I broke the electrode out of the end and using a hacksaw and making 2 cuts in the form of a crosshair across the threads, made the thread chaser. It worked great to eliminate carbon from the plug threads. That was an old trick from shop class. Sorry to ramble on!
Thanks!
Too funny! that is exactly what I did too. And yes, it was a suggestion from our shop teacher. I'm begining to think that Autoshop teachers are sadists! But it worked great. I finally gave it away to an apprentice mechanic.
I also forgot to ask if Harald had plugged the PCV valve to check it. He asked if he could plug the line with a bolt, and I forgot to reply.
Yes you can plug the line with a bolt, but you don't need to. Just pull the valve from the valve cover with the hose attached. Then place your thumb over the end of the valve. With the engine running, if the PCV valve is bad the vacuum will immediately increase as will the rpms. The whole test takes less than 1/2 minute.
hi guys, i'm glad too see you guys are still with the problem and that i'm encountering the sae problems as guys, with drilling plugs and all hehe...
anyway, soo many questions, where to start.. scott, to your questions:
1 ) when i moved the dist to max vacuum, it read 0.6 bars or 17.72 inches of HG (this conversion was done by a program on the net and that's another value then we had earlier, wasn't it?) this was at about 30 degrees advanced, and turning the dist either way from that point gave a little less vacuum, and the rpm went down from there... 2) compression readings will follow a bit down this post 3) if only it were that simple, still a good quetion though...
i did do the pcv check, and that was working fine...
73: the rebuild was done by yours truly, didn't need a ridge reamer since there was nothing to ream, i don't think the engine had a lot of mileage on since the last overhaul. it doesn't have an egr valve and it doesn't have power brakes (yet).
i did spray carb cleaner around the base of the carb and the manifold, but as far as i can tell (engine idling a bit rough anyway) it doessn't make a differtence, plus, i've put a carefull line of loctite between the manifold and the carb.
so, here are the results for the compression test:
1 12 bars 2 12.5 3 12.5 4 11 5 11 6 11 7 13 8 12
so all the cylinders are between 160 and 180 psi... that's even better then i'd hoped for. so no prob on the rings then. this was the dry test btw, so i guess no need for the wet test. did try the 1st cyl wet, but gave no difference.
still have to try the vacuum line from the tranny, but have to put all the plugs and wires back for that so will do this afternoon. wanted to let you guys know this first...
scott, i double checked that pressure conversion and 0.61 bars is exactly 18 inches of mercury. so what does that mean? that there is no vacuum problem then?
ow my god, we've been looking in the wrong direction i'm afraid.... gonna get that tranny vacuum hose check done, that way we know that too...
hope too catch you guys later today, but being weekend and all i guess you guys are all out driving your stangs.....sigh....
Yeah, The Transmission modulator can mess you up sometimes. and it could be the problem. Does the engine run strong in park, and when you rev it up, does it run good? If so, then you should expect something down at the tranny. I don't know if this would have any thing to to about it, but what size stall converter was installed?
_____________________________
2000 GT Mustang Convertible
1966 Mustang coupe- all original, soon to be 4v swap.
the stall converter is stock, since the manifold and the cam are only mild, on the 1500-6500 power band. was planning on installing a break-a-way converter somewhere down the line.
anyway, so i did the check with the vacuum line plugged at the manifold, same thing as with it attached. blast!!!
however, i did try some to adjust it some more, and the strange thing is, was running fine again for about half an hour, even did a spin around the block again, but by the time i got back to the garage it was already acting up. stayed alive though, in gear, when i turned the ignition off. so i let it cool down for half an hour, went back outside to try it again, and what do you think? yep, same thing again... engine running very rough at idle, not staying alive in drive...(btw 6, it does work perfectly when revving it). so then i tried to adjust the idling speed in drive, but like before, when i put it back in PARK, it revs up to about 2000 revs., put it back in drive and it'll barely keep going. what's more, i felt a burning sensation in my eyes when i leaned over to adjust the idle mix, so doesn't that mean that it's getting way too much fuel?
maybe a carb problem after all? maybe i should throw the holley out, and get me a smaller edelbrock, like a 500 or 550 if that exists...and a new one out the box this time.
say, does anyone know something about fine-tuning a holley 600? because i was reading this article about a holley they were tuning, and they said that apart from changing the springs in the secondary diaphragm to have the secondaries open faster or slower, you can also (and this is recommended, apparently, by some well-respected tuning shop) to first take out the check ball in the diaphragm vacuum canal, that way they open quicker...
i wonder, should i try this? if for example, the car stalls due to too rich mixture in drive, its probably more of a jetting problem i would think. but if it stalls in drive due to to lean a mixture, then removing the check ball might be enough. but if that were the case, where does the burning sensation come from? ( and no i didn't fart if that's what you're thinking...) just thinking out loud here fellas... let me know what you think about it.
Printable Version
RE: 69 fastback stalls in any gear... HELP - 
.
....). 
.... plus the wife's not too happy with me in the garage 24/7 either.... 
