I know this may get canned but, I have a friend that is making Hydrogen (or something that goes boom) in his garage. We all know, (or should) that OIL is going to run out in a few years. Well anyway, he and another friend has rigged up a contraption that is apparently seperating water. What ever it is, I know he has toasted his eyebrowls at least once and blew the lid off at least three times (Hindenburged). They are using only water and a device made mostly of stainless steel and an electric fence controller. Even though they are not powering their vehicles completely, they are supplementing the gas and increasing their mileage by about 40 miles per tank. These are amateurs? I understand the Japanease have now in production, a Hydrogen powered vehicle, what are we doing? We all know that BIG OIL is killing our economy as they make billions, and personally I don't have any faith in our Goverment to solve anything except their own well being. As usual, its going to be left up to us, the American citizens to fix things, hopefully before its too late. So, whats in the future?
Hydrogen powered cars are not new technology, but do you really think the oil companies are gonna allow someone to start mass-producing something that could potentially put them out of business? Hell no! some bright little guy says "hey look what i did, i invented a hydrogen powered car!" oil companies approach that guy and say "hey man thats really great, good work! but listen to this, how bout instead of waiting 10 years for your design to really take off, we will make you rich right now. sell us your plans and we will pay you x amount of millions" of course the guy is like sure here ya go.
now what will those oil companies do with that technology? release it to the public and start mass producing hyro cars? hell no, they are just gonna throw it in a file cabinet and continue making billions on oil until there is not a single drop of fuking oil left. they are not about to watch some super nerd take a hit at their oil business.
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Joined: 10/10/2005 From: brunstank ga Status: offline
the govt has no business in solving our energy problems. that comes from the private sector. if you dont want to pay for gas demand a product that doesn't use it. there hasn't been a demand in such a product till recently. if i was working the parice of gas right now even as high as it is would be largely insiginifcant, seeing how i dont live an hour from work and if push came to shove i could ride a bicycle.
if we really want to get a grasp in spirialing energy cost we need to look at liquified coal as a fuel, along with more small diesel car and trucks, heck even a diesel motorcycles a regular gas powered bike around 1000cc gets 60+ mpg so imagine a diesel you could easily get into 100-200mpg imo because the diesel make torque so easy and the motor can be made smaller and add transmissions with more gear maybe a 10spd on a bike.
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Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
but do you really think the oil companies are gonna allow someone to start mass-producing something that could potentially put them out of business?
Hydrogen is not ready for prime time. There are 2 ways to use hydrogen. Burn it in internal combustion or use it to power fuel cells in an electric car. In either case there are no cheap storage options for a car. no good way to fill tanks and no infrastructure to distribute hydrogen to the masses. Many big cities don't even have E-85 fuel, hydrogen is light years from mass distribution.
To add insult to injury, most commercial hydrogen is made by breaking down natural gas, which releases carbon. Sure some of the carbon is recovered but the overall carbon footprint is larger with hydrogen than gas.
E-85 or pure ethanol is the only practical solution because the infrastructure is already in place. Search for flex fuel cars in Brazil. Brazil did it right starting way back in the '70s.
but do you really think the oil companies are gonna allow someone to start mass-producing something that could potentially put them out of business?
Hydrogen is not ready for prime time. There are 2 ways to use hydrogen. Burn it in internal combustion or use it to power fuel cells in an electric car. In either case there are no cheap storage options for a car. no good way to fill tanks and no infrastructure to distribute hydrogen to the masses. Many big cities don't even have E-85 fuel, hydrogen is light years from mass distribution.
To add insult to injury, most commercial hydrogen is made by breaking down natural gas, which releases carbon. Sure some of the carbon is recovered but the overall carbon footprint is larger with hydrogen than gas.
E-85 or pure ethanol is the only practical solution because the infrastructure is already in place. Search for flex fuel cars in Brazil. Brazil did it right starting way back in the '70s.
E85 isn't practical. It takes almost as much energy to make as it produces and has made the cost of food rise worse then gas prices.
Mr Rudolph Diesel himself originally designed his motor to run off powdered coal, maybe we could learn a thing or two...
Also, keep in mind that the primary oil company not working alternative energy is Exxon Mobil. BP is working on biofuels, is the worlds largest producer of solar panels, has a ton of wind farm investments and in investing heavily in research in of hydrogen. Chevron is on the leading edge of geothermal energy and has major investments tied into other forms of alternative energy as well. Shell is also playing heavily in alternative energies.
Remember that oil companies are business that are owned publically. When they make money, people make money. If you look at profit margin, oil companies make less per dollar invested then McDonalds, Starbucks, Walmart, and a multitude of other industries. Look at how much drug companies make off of every dollar invested and it will make you sick...
< Message edited by PReal -- 5/17/2008 6:59:30 AM >
The process you're talking about is electrolysis. That's how submarines make their own oxygen. Catch is, it chews up electrical power. That means it costs money for the electrical bill, and it uses more energy to make that electrical power.
Hydrogen is proving to be an impractical fuel source for the reseaons stated, no infrastructure and prohibitive cost. E85 isn't practical because we make it from corn, which is inefficient and has increased the cost of most foods. Brazil's ethanol fuel economy is effective because they make it from sugar which is more efficient and can grow in vast quanitities in their country. Alcohol based fuels have other challenges as well in terms of distrobution.
As far as the panic mongering in the oil futures market that has driven the oil costs through the roof, we are not anywhere even close to running out of oil in the next 2 years, or the next 20, or even the next 200. Oil is a naturally occuring compound(it's not the remains of dinosaurs, contrary to popular belief). We don't know the mechanism behind it, but the oil wells replenish themselves, and many countries are sitting on top of unimaginably VAST reserves of oil that remain completely untapped. The United States for instance, we sit on top of the 2nd largest amount of oil in the entire world, just behind Russia. And that's out of what we KNOW about.
Ultimately we need to find something better than oil. It generates pollution and there are other environmental factors invloved in it. Gasoline combustion is highly innefficient. That's why the oil companies(which these days are more aptly energy companies) are investing in things like wind, solar, geothermal etc. I'm sure Chevron alone spends more money investing in alternative energy than every small business dedicated to it in the US combined.
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
Hydrogen by your description is being produced by electrolysis. It produces both H2 and O2 - both very flammable.
Hydrogen as a car fuel, at least with present mass-production technologies (natural gas production) is WAY TOO EXPENSIVE and not environmentally friendly (lots of energy expended to produce a little hydrogen). Problems with storage, transport, infrastructure, etc. do not make it an ideal candidate for automobile applications. It does hold promise as a way to "De-centralize" energy production and this scares the hell out of large energy companies who are spending billions on how to develop and own (i.e. patent) the technologies having to do with hydrogen. Look at BP and Royal Dutch Shell's research... they see the writing on the wall after "Peak Oil" hits... likely with the next decade or two (and if you think gas prices are high now... just wait until then!!!).
Its promise is that it is a potentially storable form of electric energy and this offers advantages over present electric generation and batteries; if power plants today do not use up the energy, it is wasted. And we all know the problems with batteries. If we can find a way to cheaply produce hydrogen and store it (big problem at the present), then we can all live off the grid and convert every thing to electrc. That is where the big hope really lives - De-centralization of energy. Right now we all get our energy from Central sources (Power company, Oil company, Natural gas company,etc.)
Hydrogen is proving to be an impractical fuel source for the reseaons stated, no infrastructure and prohibitive cost. E85 isn't practical because we make it from corn, which is inefficient and has increased the cost of most foods. Brazil's ethanol fuel economy is effective because they make it from sugar which is more efficient and can grow in vast quanitities in their country. Alcohol based fuels have other challenges as well in terms of distrobution.
As far as the panic mongering in the oil futures market that has driven the oil costs through the roof, we are not anywhere even close to running out of oil in the next 2 years, or the next 20, or even the next 200. Oil is a naturally occuring compound(it's not the remains of dinosaurs, contrary to popular belief). We don't know the mechanism behind it, but the oil wells replenish themselves, and many countries are sitting on top of unimaginably VAST reserves of oil that remain completely untapped. The United States for instance, we sit on top of the 2nd largest amount of oil in the entire world, just behind Russia. And that's out of what we KNOW about.
Ultimately we need to find something better than oil. It generates pollution and there are other environmental factors invloved in it. Gasoline combustion is highly innefficient. That's why the oil companies(which these days are more aptly energy companies) are investing in things like wind, solar, geothermal etc. I'm sure Chevron alone spends more money investing in alternative energy than every small business dedicated to it in the US combined.
I'm pretty sure we are behind the Saudi's as well. OPEC owns the world right now though. At the least the US drives the world's food supply. We can live without oil, you can't live without food.
If the "greenies" would less us produce our natural resourses along the coasts it would really help, and the alaskan wildlife reserve also has vast resources.
I just wish the public realized that it takes a minimum of 10 years to develop an oil field. There is a lot more work involved then punching holes in the ground.
We're currently behind the Saudis in terms of production, but we actually sit on top of more oil than they do. Oil that we know about anyway. And yeah, 10 years is about right for developing a field. That's one of the things with ANWR, the time element and the environment element. It's HARSH up in them neck of the woods, and developing a field their is a real challenge, just like the North Slope back in the day.
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
There are some guys working on brown gas supplementation on their gas powered cars. But looking at the results, it is not a substitute for oil with existing technologies. Also the claims being made about improvements in fuel economy are typically determined in a non scientific manner, thus to be taken with much skepticism.
I am interested in their work, and there have been great developments, but it's no where near the point whereI would consider it worth toying with.
If we are going with ethanol then we should ditch corn and embrace a cellulosic variety like sugar cane or switchgrass - multiple higher yields on energy production. Look at Brazil. I know the arguments about how Brazil is hurting golbal warming by cutting down rainforests for sugarcane production but at least they are not jerking around with corn-based ethanol... this is a joke and a tax-payer give away to agri-business. Haven't we had enough of these government subsidies to big businesses? - America is growing tired of corporate socialism.
But even with this ethanol approach at full tilt, we could not meet our needs and still feed us or the world.
We need a comprehensive energy plan that embraces many different approaches including solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen, nuclear. A Manhattan project or Apollo project scale plan is absolutely necessary.
I love nuclear but Wall Street will not touch it because of costs and no one will insure new plants. The spent fuel is the biggest safety concern in my book. The operation of the plants is less troubling.
There is no such thing as clean coal - that is Madison Ave marketing helping politicians get re-elected. Within 24 hours after Bush announced in his last state of the union address a "Clean coal" project in Matoon, Illinois was canceled for being too expensive.
Aside from greenhouse gases, coal spews out arsenic, mercury, radioactive Thorium and Uranium and several other bad actors into the air. Sure it is relatively cheap but ask the coal miners how the safety record has been lately or ask West Virginia residents how changed regulations by the Bush Administration has ruined their potable water andhoem resale values. Coal is not the answer either.
We need a multipronged approach. Ralph Nader has presented research that has shown that the biggest bang for the buck would be government subsidies to both corporations and individuals to better insulate their dwellings. This would result in very quick and very dramatic cost-effective savings. Sometimes some of the best answers come from sources we tend to dismiss!
As far as the panic mongering in the oil futures market that has driven the oil costs through the roof, we are not anywhere even close to running out of oil
So right! This insidious form of capitalism negates market forces of supply and demand and creates the artificially high prices that we pay.
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E85 isn't practical. It takes almost as much energy to make as it produces and has made the cost of food rise worse then gas prices.
Only part true. The anti ethanol activists never mention that ALL farm prices are going up because of the skyrocketing cost of DIESEL FUEL. All corm production requires diesel fuel for planting, harvesting and transportation. Basically our whole food chain is affected by diesel fuel cost. Just to be clear, the carbon released by use of diesel on farms has to be added to the carbon released by burning ethanol. That is the only reason the carbon footprint for ethanol is high. At the same time activists do not add the carbon from drilling and refining to the carbon released by burning gas. So there is a bunch of phoney facts floating around this subject.
BTW, the corn you eat is not the same corn they use for ethanol, high fructose corn syrup, animal feed ect. The competition is for corn acerage, not actual corn. This situation is temporary and will be solved when more acres are converted to corn. Also note that human food corn has always been one of the smallest percentage uses of corn that is grown.
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We need a comprehensive energy plan that embraces many different approaches including solar, wind, geothermal, hydrogen, nuclear. A Manhattan project or Apollo project scale plan is absolutely necessary.
Exactly. I know that brazil has a unique situation with all the sugar cane AND cheap labor. But the main reason for their sucess is thst the Govt. made an Apollo project out of it. Thier conversion to ethanol would have never happened if the Govt. hadn't made it into a moon shot.
All I can say is, I would rather give my money to American farmers and ethanol producers than the Saudi Royal family.
< Message edited by 65Coupester -- 5/17/2008 3:51:18 PM >
I think first and for most American cars need to get smaller in engine size this I think will happen with high oil price being the main driver My dd gets 31.1 mpg ok its a 99 ford escort estate 1.6L with a massive 100bhp!! My friends car is even more fuel efficient but is is a 3 cylinder 1.4L diesel it get unbelievable economy 51 mpg with a huge 80bhp and he claims he can get 115 mph out of it but I don't believe it myself.
if we all use hydrogen, are only exhaust we are told would be water vapor what happens in big cities with all the extra vapor
i see rain happening every day
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brianj tncruiser 2006 redfire v6 w/pony package 12/05/05 delivery K&N drop in air filter rear and 1/4 window tint 20k miles and i smile every time i drive it new toy linclon mark LT i can spell, i can type not always at the same time
I think first and for most American cars need to get smaller in engine size this I think will happen with high oil price being the main driver My dd gets 31.1 mpg ok its a 99 ford escort estate 1.6L with a massive 100bhp!! My friends car is even more fuel efficient but is is a 3 cylinder 1.4L diesel it get unbelievable economy 51 mpg with a huge 80bhp and he claims he can get 115 mph out of it but I don't believe it myself.
but those cars are no fun to drive
I think car makers should go away from big displacement and more towards other ways to satisfy our need for fun cars. variable timing, forced induction, cylinder deactivation, etc. to keep the fun factor and still get decent mileage when you keep your foot out of it.
I think car makers should go away from big displacement and more towards other ways to satisfy our need for fun cars. variable timing, forced induction, cylinder deactivation, etc. to keep the fun factor and still get decent mileage when you keep your foot out of it.
thats true but if it were that easy we,d be doing it
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brianj tncruiser 2006 redfire v6 w/pony package 12/05/05 delivery K&N drop in air filter rear and 1/4 window tint 20k miles and i smile every time i drive it new toy linclon mark LT i can spell, i can type not always at the same time
^ you mean if it was CHEAP to do it. the technology is all there, but the demand is low, parts are specialized, and that means the technology is expensive still.
the E85 is a step in the right direction i think...just NOT from corn. someone mentioned brazil, and it is now possible to make e85 from a GRASS that groes all over brazil. this looks promising to me. ive consiered getting an old car and converting it to alcohol, get some expeience in making the stuf, and then switching my car.
First of all, there is only one feasable way to collect hydrogen. That way is getting it from a hydrocarbon. Oil, coal , and you get the picture. Yes water has hydrogen in it however, it takes mass amount of energy to segregate the H. Likewise with oil or coal, it takes 40 times the energy to produce H then it would take to make gasoline. The truth of all the environmental ideas is this. They may produce less pollution, but they don't produce the same energy either. Gasoline packs more potential energy then any other form of fuel. As for E85, there isn't enough farm acreage in the world to produce enough ethanol. BTW, the first post stated that "we'll run out of oil in a few years". Yeah right! There are vast amounts of oil that have yet to be reached. technology will always improve and allow man to reach oil deposits that were once thought unobtainable. So don't get your panties in a knot. Its only gas. Live it up while you can. Remeber the Black station wagon that takes your arse to the cementary only gets 8 miles to the gallon. So floor it while you can.
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2006 Red Fire GT Convertible. 1970 Medium Lime Metallic Mach 1 1997 Pacific green/silver F 150 ext cab 4x4 2002 Navy Blue Escape 4x4 [image][image]
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