I got a letter in the mail from the IRS today concerning my $600 economic stimulus payment. One of the first things it says is, "you will not be required to report the amount of your stimulus payment as taxable income on your 2008 federal income tax return."

So ha! :P Stop crying "government conspiracy" and help out the economy by spending the money.

thanks for that correction.


also the fact that the government is giving us money to put into the economy is actually the best way to combat a recession,

to combat a recession the government has to increase government spend on things like public works or military spending. but in todays government where we are seeing huge deficits giving money to the people to spend will greatly help because these purchases will incur taxes for state and local government. helping fun our local economies.

intheory it should work out wonderfully as long as the people spend. the issue the situation faces now is that the marginal propensity to consume is at a record low which means people are spending less and saving more.

saving does not help using the effect money multiplier effect. the only thing it does is allow banks to increase excess reserves and allow for more lending and investment.

but if people arent willing to spend then theres no reason for investment or lending.


BE GREED AMERICANS.

and make sure you buy American. thats a big deal.

all apple computers are built in japan so american dosent see GDP increase.

dodge rams are built in mexico. so we dont see a GDP increase.

intheory it should work out wonderfully as long as the people spend. the issue the situation faces now is that the marginal propensity to consume is at a record low which means people are spending less and saving more.

HA.... not people in the middle of mustang rebuilds!!!!!!

but all that money goes to Taiwan.

ORIGINAL: Hot70Mach1

dodge rams are built in mexico. so we dont see a GDP increase.


Actually, as far as I know,all of the end profit still ends up here (which is better than before, when it ended up in Germany with Daimler), but only the profit. We don't buy the actual trucks from Mexico, we just source outparts and labor. All of the money that gets spent onthat outsourcing is lost to us since none of that money is getting pumped back into our economy to get rolled into the money multiplier.

Then again, that assumesChrysler makes a profit this year=/

All That said, Ford builds cars down there too. I know Focuses (Foci?) are built down there.

And CXR, I'd much rather spend money on sheet metal from the US. OE Ford tooling is going to be a minimum requirement for me when I get around to body work. I doubt I'm going to be able to find, let alone afford, NOS body panels. I may look to Dynacorn as an alternative, though. I've heard their stuff is top notch.

Lets face it. $600 is not enough to buy a car. I think that is out of the question.

You can however, buy things like quarter panels. NPD is particularly good about saying what sheet metal is made in America. I support the idea entirely of people spending their money on AMERICAN made goods...

As far as $600 goes, I think the government hs the right idea. I just don't think $600 is enough. Dont get me wrongl. thats not me saying i want 10k and then ill be happy. I think this is the reight idea, but $600 isnt much, considering the state of things. I filled upo my truck today for $4.09 a gallon... regular 87.... this is getting out of control.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... if people keep buyng hondas and toyotas, this economy will continue to fail. Aside from a home, a car is you next biggest purchase, in most instances. Even a used one. The parts are licensed to that company, and chances are good you'll take it to that make's dealership for service...

my $.02

I dont get any...grrrr[:@]

I was going to use to to help out my tuition..Or Magnum wheels, whatever I find more important;)

The idea behind $600 is that the money gets spent and respent continuously, part of the money multiplier. As long as people spend the money, that $600 per personshould roll over something like 10 times in the course of a year, meaning that after a year it's like adding 10 times that amount to the GDP. Granted, not everyone's going to spend it all, but the multiplied amount is still significantly more than what was originally distributed to the public. It worked in 2000, and as long as people start spending money (on American products/services) it may just prevent a recession. Granted, we technically aren't in danger of a textbook recession for another couple quarters, but you get the point.

ive decided to buy another gun my gun i got is quite heavy, this one will lend itself better to daily carry "The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. . . . He who thinks he is his own master, and has anything he may call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself and what he possesses, or else he lives precariously and at discretion" unknown by me? http://www.shootersjax.com/p-2102-m-p-pistol-40-s-w.aspx and best of all its american made so it will stay in the country to further stimulate the economy ;)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f4/rmodel65/mp40.jpg

ORIGINAL: Starfury

[quote]ORIGINAL: Hot70Mach1

dodge rams are built in mexico. so we dont see a GDP increase.


Actually, as far as I know,all of the end profit still ends up here (which is better than before, when it ended up in Germany with Daimler), but only the profit. We don't buy the actual trucks from Mexico, we just source outparts and labor. All of the money that gets spent onthat outsourcing is lost to us since none of that money is getting pumped back into our economy to get rolled into the money multiplier.

[/qoute]



correct profit returns to america and money is mulitplied


BUT

GDP or Gross Domestic Product only records production of goods and services within a countries borders.

GNP or gross national product is a record of all income earned by a country(hench profit returning to america via mopar)

the BMW plant in georgia actually contributes to GDP because its produced here. although final checkable deposit profit goes back to germany.

Finally since we base our recession guidelines on GDP growth we must accept only products and services within the country borders. not just american companies.


it dosent have to be american owned! just american made!


services count too, such as restaurants and dry cleaning.

I have my AP Economics test in two days.[:o]

so im still not an expert. i like this convo. its keeping me sharp.

correct me if you see my errors please.

i dont know why my post is like that^^^^^^^^6

hey all i got to say is at least you got $600.. all my family didnt get that and we are poor enough that it would have helped us out alot

ORIGINAL: Kramer

hey all i got to say is at least you got $600.. all my family didnt get that and we are poor enough that it would have helped us out alot


i concur.

my dads been laid off for 8 months and just got a job two or three months ago. and its 100% commission. so money isnt the same around here eiether.

because you put your text within the quote tags;)

And yeah, you're right. Forgot about that part of it.

ORIGINAL: Starfury

because you put your text within the quote tags;)

And yeah, you're right. Forgot about that part of it.


I TRIED TO FIX IT! HONEST!:(:(:(


thanks.

also Kramer. i believe that the government purposly choose certain income brackets because they believed that a family with less would be more willing to save the money. and that a family with a little more money would be more inclined to spend the money.

so once again the middle class gets the money and the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

it has to do with MPS and MPC. the government dosent actually care about the individual receiving 600 dollars. they arent doing it to be nice they are doing it to jumpstart the economy.

blah.

I gave mine to Daze a couple of month's back for my brake swap kit. It stayed American :D

Actually, I'm REALLY freaking far down the tax bracket. I'm 24 and and a part time (sometimes full time)student. This is the first year I've been able to claim myself on my own taxes; I've been a dependant on my mom's up until now. $20k total householdincome for a year doesn't put you in a very high tax bracket. $600 to me is a pretty sizeable chunk of change. I'm just young and stupid enough to spend it on my car:) That, and I got a raise at work, so I've got some money burning a hole in my pocket.

But you're right, the goverment isn't doing it for the individual, it's to help the economy as a whole.

As far as $600 goes, I think the government hs the right idea. I just don't think $600 is enough. Dont get me wrongl. thats not me saying i want 10k and then ill be happy. I think this is the reight idea, but $600 isnt much, considering the state of things. I filled upo my truck today for $4.09 a gallon... regular 87.... this is getting out of control.

I've said it before and I'll say it again... if people keep buyng hondas and toyotas, this economy will continue to fail. Aside from a home, a car is you next biggest purchase, in most instances. Even a used one. The parts are licensed to that company, and chances are good you'll take it to that make's dealership for service...

my $.02
[/quote]

my question is why are people buying hondas and toyotas vs others? is it because they are that much more reliable? Id in the market for an american made fuel efficent ultra small reliable car that handles well has a great sporty feel, a smooth manual shifter, and is a blast to drive. my 95 honda civic is getting ready to hit the 300,000 mile marker and its still on the origional clutch etc. oil changes 2 timing belts brakes,exhaust, are all ive had to deal with thankfully. Ill buy what i belive to be quality over buying something american made, id rather buy american made but it means putting up with higher maintanence costs . if they want my money they need to step up to the plate and build them better. my GF's 2003 ford focus has gone through 2 transmission 2 alternators a bad fuel pump and it hardly has over 80,000 miles on it.

starfury... dont enjoy your raise now at 24.. up your retirement saving.

jamison.... does it really matter if one buys honda, toyota nowadays versus chevy, ford. All the products are made in china anyway. amricans are losign jobs and this 600.00 is like welfare.

i know you had to report the 300 that they gave everyone back in 2001

very true... keep in mind our government is also borrowing the money from china to give us that $600. its funny because china is a comunist nation and yet they will own this country by the use of capitalism. IE making products cheaper, with less labor cost and no unions.

the stimulus check really isnt a good idea :


Before the House of Representatives, January 29, 2008 Madame Speaker, I find it odd that HR 5140, a bill allegedly designed to provide a stimulus for the anemic American economy, contains provisions that could damage the economy and hurt American taxpayers. Specifically, the provisions increasing the loan limitations of the Federal Housing Administration and the Government Sponsored Enterprises (e.g. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac), will exacerbate the long-term problems in the housing market, and may even lead to a future taxpayer bailout of the housing industry. The recent bursting of the housing bubble should have taught my colleagues the dangers of government policies that distort the market by diverting resources to housing, when those resources would be more efficiently used in other sectors of the economy. Ironically, many of the same members who insisted that upper-income taxpayers be denied the tax rebates are enthusiastic champions of the provisions in HR 5140 increasing the FHA loan limit to $633,500 and the GSE loan limit to $729,750. This increase in the loan limits represents a generous taxpayer subsidy to high-income homeowners. A one-time “rebate” check, while it may provide a temporary boost to many working American families struggling with the current downturn, is not going to provide the type of sustained income growth necessary to restore consumer confidence. In fact, history shows that when the government forgoes serious tax cuts in favor of one-time “rebates” most people either save the money for a “rainy day” or use it to pay down some of their debt. In addition, I am concerned that the 50% bonus depreciation and the increase in the amount of qualifying purchases that small businesses can expense in the year they bought their equipment will be of limited effectiveness because they are limited to one year. A more effective way to stimulate the economy would be to make the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts permanent. I also hope Congress considers the long-term tax cuts contained in HR 5109, the Economic Growth Act. Congress should also pass my Tax Free Tips Act (HR 3664), which makes tips exempt from Federal income and payroll taxes. Making tips tax-free will strengthen American families and the American economy by allowing millions of hard-working Americans to devote more resources to their children’s, or their own, education, or to save for a home, retirement, or to start their own businesses. Another disturbing feature of HR 5140 is that, instead of taking the fiscally responsible course and pairing the tax cuts with spending cuts, this bill simply adds to the national deficit. Madame Speaker, unless Congress acts soon to reign in its excessive spending, the American people will face confiscatory tax rates or skyrocketing inflation. Tax cuts by themselves will not restore long-term economic health unless and until this body finally addresses the fundamental cause of our economic instability, which is monetary policy. The inflationary policies of the Federal Reserve are the root of the boom-and-bust cycle that has plagued the American economy for almost 75 years. The Federal Reserve’s inflationary polices are also at the root of the steady decline in the American people’s standard of living. A good step toward monetary reform would be for Congress to pass my HR 2576, which repeals the Federal legal tender laws. This would allow people to use alternatives to government-issued fiat money and thus protect themselves from Federal Reserve–created inflation. One of the best things Congress could do for the American economy is to repeal, or at least reform, the misguided Sarbanes-Oxley law, particularly Section 404. Rushed through Congress in the wake of the Enron and WorldCom scandals in order to show that Congress was “getting tough” on corporate crime, Sarbanes-Oxley imposes unreasonable costs on small businesses and entrepreneurs. A survey by Financial Executives International, an organization of chief financial officers, put the average cost of compliance with Sarbanes-Oxley at $4.4 million, while the American Economics Association estimates Sarbanes-Oxley could cost American companies as much as $35 billion. Because of these costs, many small businesses are delisting from United States stock exchanges. According to a study by the prestigious Wharton Business School, the number of American companies delisting from public stock exchanges nearly tripled the year after Sarbanes-Oxley became law, thus these companies are finding it more costly to attract the necessary capital to grow their business and create jobs. In conclusion, Madame Speaker, HR 5140 does not provide the kind of permanent, deep tax relief that will protect long-term economic growth, and will actually compound the damage Congress has already done to the housing market. Instead of pretending that we are addressing America’s economic problems via temporary tax cuts, Congress should address the fundamental problems of the American economy by pursing serious monetary reform, spending cuts, and regulatory reform. Congress should also provide real long-term tax relief to the American people by passing legislation such as HR 5109 and HR 3664.

hey im too young to remember. but did the government do the same thing during the recesion of 2001?


in reality we were worse off in 2001 then we are now.

for a year and a half the GDP growth was negative and unemployemnt was at 5.8%

as for the last two quarters we have actually experienced fractional growth so technically we are not in a recession yet. and unemployment is still at 5%.

it takes two consecutive quarters of Negative GDP growth to be considered a real recession. according to modern economic theory.

weve faced harder times before. well make it through.:)

To Hell with it. I'm spending mine on lap dances! But only from born-in-America strippers!!!!!

ORIGINAL: honeygoldcoupe

To Hell with it. I'm spending mine on lap dances! But only from born-in-America strippers!!!!!



thats a classic.

Has anybody heard that this money will be deducted form next years refund????I heard and read as well as it being confirmed by a accountant

ORIGINAL: Iskwezm

Has anybody heard that this money will be deducted form next years refund????I heard and read as well as it being confirmed by a accountant


You need a better accountant. This is a tax rebate...a return of some of the tax money you paid. It is unrelated to any future taxes paid.

What Americans need to do is stop spending and start saving. It's spending money that you don't have that has put the world almost into
recession. Also, when you spend, think about where that money is going. As some have stated most will be to a foreign country. Much
of that to Japan, so thank you mister Bush...................:D

Jav

ORIGINAL: honeygoldcoupe

To Hell with it. I'm spending mine on lap dances! But only from born-in-America strippers!!!!!


:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

I only read a couple of the posts but i will say this. If you want to spent the money on american stuff buy beer and golf. You cant go to Walmart and buy something you will be buying chineese. Just go get drunk and play golf. :)

Come on dont blame Mr. Bush the economy was fine befor the Democratic congress took over....


ORIGINAL: JapanGT

What Americans need to do is stop spending and start saving. It's spending money that you don't have that has put the world almost into
recession. Also, when you spend, think about where that money is going. As some have stated most will be to a foreign country. Much
of that to Japan, so thank you mister Bush...................:D

Jav

the recession of 2001 was in effect before bush got in office and it was much worse than right now.

we glossed over it because of 9/11.

but that recesssion is directly related to democratic controlled congress and democratic controlled white house.


btw we arent in a recession yet:eek:


and dont advise people to save. thats not going to help the economy. that helps the indivdual. which destroys the economy and destroys the individual.

the problem is spending money you dont have

true it was from people with no credit getting huge houses an dcars they cannont really afford.

but whats putting us in a recession is now that the morgatge crisis is upon us people are scared and saving money.


which pulls money out of circulation and causes recesion which increases unemployment. and combined with high gas prices increases inflation which will cause stagflation.

high school economics. ftw.

ORIGINAL: Iskwezm

Has anybody heard that this money will be deducted form next years refund????I heard and read as well as it being confirmed by a accountant


As honeygoldcoupe stated.. you do not have to report it on your 08 return. I just received our notice today and in the first paragraph it states the following:
From: Your Friendly Neighbourhood Internal Revenue Service ;)
"You will not be required to report the amount of your stimulus payment as taxable income on your 2008 federal income tax return"

I'm looking at the Eaton Detroit Locker 912A580 (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=DTL%2D912A580&FROM=MG) myself :D

For all those that are going to buy mustang parts, I emplore you to check where they are made. USA made FTW!

It's a shame that some of the Mustangs today are physically turning into Chinese classics...

No The US Goverment is putting us in Debt and Recession. We as Americans are losing our jobs by the Thousands and the Goverment does nothing but profit off of this. The Highest Grossing Goverment Entity is The US Customs. Everytime a product is imported into the US they have to pay a Duty (tax) on the Commodity coming in. This countries are limited to amounts that can be brought into the US, but if the go over that amount they just pay a higher percentage. So we are losing jobs to other countries that use cheap labor to build the product. Take the automobile or any other product that use to be made in Amercia, that item is now being built in Mexico, China or Japan. Did the end user price go down? No if anything the price went up and the companies have made higher profit margins. The only ones that are investing in the US are Foriegn Companies. Look at the last Automotive manufacturing plants that have been built in the US there are all Foriegn Cars. (Honda,Nissan and Toyota.) If the Foriegn companies can do why can't the American companies do it? The last plant FORD built was in Brazil it is a Multi Billion Dollar State of The Art Plant full of cheap labor. What was once our biggest employer's Manufacturing is now a past time, the US is becoming a Warehousing industry. As Far as Goverment Stimulus Checks They Cut These Checks every month it is called WELFARE. If the Goverment wants to be fair then they should send out checks every month from ALL THE PRODUCTS that are imported into the US form the Jobs we have lost.......

Mines going for new wheels.. :) ... or I might support single moms at the strip club.. :)

ORIGINAL: JapanGT

What Americans need to do is stop spending and start saving. It's spending money that you don't have that has put the world almost into
recession. Also, when you spend, think about where that money is going. As some have stated most will be to a foreign country. Much
of that to Japan, so thank you mister Bush...................:D

Jav


The point of this stimulus is to SPEND that money. Saving only goes so far anyway. People learned that the hard way in the GREAT DEPRESSION.

And don't tell Americans what they need to do when you're not even in this Country. You mention the habit of spending what you don't have has put the WORLD into depression... fine. Then don't point your finger at the US when making a statement that applies to the WORLD. I could say something about Japan torturing US POWs in WWII, and MITSUBISHI forcing US POWs to work as slave labor in their factories during the war, but I won't step off your high horse. Asia is not perfect, and without the US to buy all your crap, your economy would fail. Want us to save and not spend? Find another country to sponsor your low wage factory jobs, and then come back with an argument about us saving.

So... YOU ARE WELCOME.

And I get tired of people blaming bush. Pull that **** for Iraq, if you must, but Clinton had this economy in a downward spiral when he was leaving office. Clinton stepped into a booming economy, thanks to Sr., and when he left things were on a serious fall from Grace. People like to blame Bush for the problems with the economy, and while certain things can be attributed to his administration, but this was on it way when he stepped up, and 9/11 Didn't help.

As for people still saying their accountants are saying it's coming out of next years taxes... Read the original post. Thats what this thread is ABOUT.

yeah, the economic problems during ones presidency are largely in part due to the prior president, most people dont know that.

Your stimulus payment is a one-time tax cut - an advance on a credit you'll receive on your 2008 return. You will not owe tax on your payment when you file your 2008 tax return, and it will not increase the amount you owe or reduce your 2008 refund.
The stimulus payment is based on your 2007 income initially. If it turns out that your 2008 income and number of children would have qualified you for a larger rebate than the one you received, you'll be sent the difference. If it turns out your 2008 income was lower than in 2007 and you should have gotten a lower rebate, you get to keep the difference.
"If you were supposed to receive a larger payment than you did, you will get the extra money," said Treasury spokesman Andrew DeSouza. "If you received more than what you should have gotten, you will not be penalized."

ORIGINAL: Hot70Mach1

thanks for that correction.


also the fact that the government is giving us money to put into the economy is actually the best way to combat a recession,

to combat a recession the government has to increase government spend on things like public works or military spending. but in todays government where we are seeing huge deficits giving money to the people to spend will greatly help because these purchases will incur taxes for state and local government. helping fun our local economies.

intheory it should work out wonderfully as long as the people spend. the issue the situation faces now is that the marginal propensity to consume is at a record low which means people are spending less and saving more.

saving does not help using the effect money multiplier effect. the only thing it does is allow banks to increase excess reserves and allow for more lending and investment.

but if people arent willing to spend then theres no reason for investment or lending.


BE GREED AMERICANS.

and make sure you buy American. thats a big deal.

all apple computers are built in japan so american dosent see GDP increase.

dodge rams are built in mexico. so we dont see a GDP increase.



:eek:

Apple processors are intel, US made, where the heck do you get Japan?? China or Mexico more like it.
Ford Mustang is built in MEXICO

The reason there is a deficit and a recession is that the government has OVERspent on stupid stuff like subsidizes of certain industries like Corn where they pay farmers not to grow corn or to start growing corn so they can push their Ethanol directives. The government controls the price of corn...PERIOD. That's one example.

Foreign trade as in a HUGE (MULTI-BILLION dollar trade deficit EVERY year)...good god the government is a bunch of idiots. Why do you think our stuff is so expensive oversease (like cars that get shipped to China or Japan) It has nothing to do with "their government restrictions on pollution" that's our government PR mill. It has to do with the fact they are allowed to tax the begeezus out of our US made productsto the point the foreign consumer does not want to purchase american made because it costs so much more that without any significant benefits. In turn we give them tax breaksor don't even bother to charge them for shipping their stuff to us which makes our US stuff seem hella expensive..why? Because wedemand $15-20 an hour to live even remotely decent as far as the average consumer is concerned.

Where do you think our government got the billions of dollars for the tax stimulus? Credit Card, as in a temporary loan from China against our trade deficit with them. What do you think it's going to cost our government (meaning you and I the consumer) to pay it back? Lower import taxes to China to ship their crap here. What do you think that's going to do to our US dollar overseas and our domestic prices? You got it, weaker dollar, our shiz goes up in price, china's crap stays cheap and wally world keeps bringing in billions of dollars all the while paying it's employees squat.

[sm=rant.gif]

okay here is me 2cents. turn off the TV, only listen to music on the radio, stop reading the paper and the rag mags, and get back to work. if you go about your day and work hard, save money where you can and spend money on the things that matter you will be fine. if you can park the everyday ride in the afternoons and save the fuel for burnin' the stang tires you will be one step ahead.

a famous man once said "this too shall pass"

my dad was born in 1921 and they had it a whole lot worse than we did. maybe this will be a wake up call to all the other 30 year olds like me. finaally we will get our shiat together and prepare for our futures.

BTW i spent $175 today to fill up the dodge. $4.29 for #2 diesel

<------ income this year will equal the 600$ stimulus payment i dont get healed up enough to go back to work[:@]

ORIGINAL: Derf00

ORIGINAL: Hot70Mach1

thanks for that correction.


also the fact that the government is giving us money to put into the economy is actually the best way to combat a recession,

to combat a recession the government has to increase government spend on things like public works or military spending. but in todays government where we are seeing huge deficits giving money to the people to spend will greatly help because these purchases will incur taxes for state and local government. helping fun our local economies.

intheory it should work out wonderfully as long as the people spend. the issue the situation faces now is that the marginal propensity to consume is at a record low which means people are spending less and saving more.

saving does not help using the effect money multiplier effect. the only thing it does is allow banks to increase excess reserves and allow for more lending and investment.

but if people arent willing to spend then theres no reason for investment or lending.


BE GREED AMERICANS.

and make sure you buy American. thats a big deal.

all apple computers are built in japan so american dosent see GDP increase.

dodge rams are built in mexico. so we dont see a GDP increase.



:eek:

Apple processors are intel, US made, where the heck do you get Japan?? China or Mexico more like it.
Ford Mustang is built in MEXICO

The reason there is a deficit and a recession is that the government has OVERspent on stupid stuff like subsidizes of certain industries like Corn where they pay farmers not to grow corn or to start growing corn so they can push their Ethanol directives. The government controls the price of corn...PERIOD. That's one example.

Foreign trade as in a HUGE (MULTI-BILLION dollar trade deficit EVERY year)...good god the government is a bunch of idiots. Why do you think our stuff is so expensive oversease (like cars that get shipped to China or Japan) It has nothing to do with "their government restrictions on pollution" that's our government PR mill. It has to do with the fact they are allowed to tax the begeezus out of our US made productsto the point the foreign consumer does not want to purchase american made because it costs so much more that without any significant benefits. In turn we give them tax breaksor don't even bother to charge them for shipping their stuff to us which makes our US stuff seem hella expensive..why? Because wedemand $15-20 an hour to live even remotely decent as far as the average consumer is concerned.

Where do you think our government got the billions of dollars for the tax stimulus? Credit Card, as in a temporary loan from China against our trade deficit with them. What do you think it's going to cost our government (meaning you and I the consumer) to pay it back? Lower import taxes to China to ship their crap here. What do you think that's going to do to our US dollar overseas and our domestic prices? You got it, weaker dollar, our shiz goes up in price, china's crap stays cheap and wally world keeps bringing in billions of dollars all the while paying it's employees squat.

[sm=rant.gif]



true intel is american.

but where is the apple computer assembled?

Japan. there fore they reap the GDP benefit.

also some mexican parts are on the mustang. like the tremec. but i dont think the final assembly line is in mexico. which is where the GDP counts


Also your missing the fundamental point. who cares if we are borrowing money from china.
yah itll add to the deficit. but whats china going to do about it? nothing.


with that said. the economy will not recover from this kinda economic withdrawl for about five years is the government dosent do anything.


heres an idea. why dont we cut out all that darn transfer payment nonsense and then we wont have to worry about the trade deficit or budget deficits.

we got into this mess because clinton allowed for variable rate interest and the expansion of transfer payments without reliable income.


do you know how the depression of 1930 started? the stock brokers let people borrow money to buy stock. and then started calling back on those loans. which caused the economy to crash.

kinda like all these foreclosures and the recesion.

the point is the moment stagflation hits hard we are screwed for the next five years. when china wants their money what are they going to do. demand it? or what. what is china going to do. wage war? we would crush them in an instant. and they know that. and since they know that they are not going to demand their money.

^^^^^^^^^^BTW, im withdrawing from posting on this thread cause its getting political,

to be honest politics and religion are two things i dont really feel the need t o get into with people.

we all have our opinions. and ill leave it at that.

to each his own.

besides i have two Exams tomorrow on this stuff. id rather talk about cars for a while.:D

Does anyone else find it ironic that we, of all people, are discussing how to stimulate the economy. We are the posterboys of economic stimulus...we are classic Mustang owners. Our cars:
1. Can only get more than about 17 mpg when they are on the back of a tow truck.
2. Generally are happy burning only the most expensive grade of fuel.
3. Are bottomless pits, swallowing parts the way a black hole swallows entire galaxies.
4. Cause us to buy the best internet connections to get a moderately usable speed on Mustang Forums.
5. Require the purchase of all types of tools useless for anything but working on the Stang.
6. Keep dozens (hundreds?) of classic Mustang supply houses in business.
7. And finally, having purchased a car which does all the above...what do we oftentimes do? Buy another one of course!

ORIGINAL: honeygoldcoupe

Does anyone else find it ironic that we, of all people, are discussing how to stimulate the economy. We are the posterboys of economic stimulus...we are classic Mustang owners. Our cars:
1. Can only get more than about 17 mpg when they are on the back of a tow truck.
2. Generally are happy burning only the most expensive grade of fuel.
3. Are bottomless pits, swallowing parts the way a black hole swallows entire galaxies.
4. Cause us to buy the best internet connections to get a moderately usable speed on Mustang Forums.
5. Require the purchase of all types of tools useless for anything but working on the Stang.
6. Keep dozens (hundreds?) of classic Mustang supply houses in business.
7. And finally, having purchased a car which does all the above...what do we oftentimes do? Buy another one of course!



good point. why are we so paranoid. hahahaha

one note tho is that everytime we purchase a classic mustang tho. it dosent count towards the GDP. because GDP is only production money earned.


but it dose help the economy as a whole. because of the money multipleir effect and it increases money velocity.


wait, i said i was done posting...oh well. hey guys i have my AP Micro/Macro economics test today. i think all of you should wish me luck. because if i fail it means everything i said on here was pretyy much useless and i would feel horrible.;)

ORIGINAL: Waffles

The point of this stimulus is to SPEND that money. Saving only goes so far anyway. People learned that the hard way in the GREAT DEPRESSION.

And don't tell Americans what they need to do when you're not even in this Country. You mention the habit of spending what you don't have has put the WORLD into depression... fine. Then don't point your finger at the US when making a statement that applies to the WORLD. I could say something about Japan torturing US POWs in WWII, and MITSUBISHI forcing US POWs to work as slave labor in their factories during the war, but I won't step off your high horse. Asia is not perfect, and without the US to buy all your crap, your economy would fail. Want us to save and not spend? Find another country to sponsor your low wage factory jobs, and then come back with an argument about us saving.

So... YOU ARE WELCOME.

And I get tired of people blaming bush. Pull that **** for Iraq, if you must, but Clinton had this economy in a downward spiral when he was leaving office. Clinton stepped into a booming economy, thanks to Sr., and when he left things were on a serious fall from Grace. People like to blame Bush for the problems with the economy, and while certain things can be attributed to his administration, but this was on it way when he stepped up, and 9/11 Didn't help.

As for people still saying their accountants are saying it's coming out of next years taxes... Read the original post. Thats what this thread is ABOUT.




I am no economist, but spending your way of the brink of a recession has never worked. It's spending
that increases inflation, which when it gets out of hand generally leads to recession. But my comments
we not meant to offend, and maybe I should have added some smiley’s....

As far as pointing fingers, in the case I quoted, it is factual. The sub prime issue in the US has had a huge global
effect, pushing economies in many countries to the brink of recession. I can thanktheUSfor my mortgages being
9.5% back in OZ, because so many banks around the world lost so much money, in the US sub prime mess.

As for the Japanese, yes there were atrocities, but hey, the US is no angel on the global stage. Who trained Bin Laden?
Who was buddy buddy with Sadam when he was fighting Iran? So yes, we humans can be bastards and it's
nothing to do with where we come from. It simply there are good and evil people and when evil people run a country
evil deeds are done.

Finally, my reference to Bush was meant to be a joke.


Jav

There are a lot of informed opinions being put forth on this topic. Many, IMO, are on target. But it is VERY EASY to miss some essential points if there is not a common body of knowledge and facts, upon which, we draw upon.

1. We are in an economic slowdown not a recession (by standard definition).
2. This economic stimulus package is classic Keynesian economics (e.g. named after famous economist John Maynard Keynes). Look it up if you need more background.
3. This is, in essence, a short term tax cut for those who qualify and is designed to put $ in the hands of those will spend (i.e. lower and middle income brackets). Since these income brackets tend to spend instead of save it should stimulate the economy in the short term.
4. A better and less expensive plan would have been to give middle and lower income people a tax-cut. Instead, the politicians are being political and want to receive recognition for this so they spent MILLIONS to print and mail out "stimulus checks"... a tax cut would have been wiser with our tax dollars but they all want to get re-elected.


As for the overall economy, the US is in terrible shape.

While core inflation is not that bad, food and fuel are really high which hits us hard on a daily basis, especially rural folks who drive a lot for their jobs and truckers. After a decade of being cheap, even clothing costs are increasing.

It is hard to get loans because of the poor risk management of the Billionaire Wall Street big boys - too lengthy a discussion for this forum. Bottom line, the Banking liquidity crisis and mortgage problems have had a negative influence on our econmy.

On the international front, because of our 9+ trillion dollar debt the dollar is no longer the valued currency it once was and the dollar has sunk. {I am a strong fiscal conservative so I and other conservatives say - thank you Mr. Bush and Republican congress - you dips were in the majority and squandered a projected surplus and added to the debt by spending like drunken sailors from 2001 thru 2006 ("Deficits don't matter" - Dick Cheny quote that all economists could not believe was uttered.)}. Since we have a huge trade deficit (we buy more than we sell abroad) that means that our VERY WEAK dollar does not go as far internationally, making us poorer by the day.

Now adding to this insanity, Bush is buying oil at record high prices for the strategic petroleum reserve - this means less oil for our consumption (decreases supply and increases price) - the only explanation that makes sense is that he plans to attack Iran and, if that happens, world oil supplies will drop and prices will jump even higher. I agree with the majority - this administration is the worst we have seen for this country in decades... maybe ever. True fiscal conservatives have for many years now called Bush an "Imposter" conservative (See Bruce Bartlett's book - Bruce worked for Reagan). I am not a Democrat - I am a conservative on many, if not most, issues. But Bush's fiscal policies and foreign policy (which has spent us into oblivion) have been a complete disaster. For crying out loud, he has the lowest approval rating in the entire history of the Gallop poll - lower than Nixon!

BTW, Ron Paul is absolutely correct on so many economic issues - before you dismiss him, you should give him a serious listen. I don't agree with him on everything, but his comments on growing empire and corporate fascism seem to right on target!

I have to stand up for Japan.
Please hear me out here...

I used to harbor some genuine resentment towards the Japanese because my grandfather was a Japanese POW in Wake Island for nearly the entire duration of WWII and was treated VERY poorly. But he did beat the odds and survived, even when the majority of his comrades, mostly civilian contractors and a few US Marines, died of starvation, disease, torture and execution.
In 1945 he came home to California damaged, but with a faith in God like nothing else.

When I took the time to read about his story, I learned that he and his buddies had been completely abandoned by the US Government. Wake Island was a US occupied territory with several hundred American civilian contractors and US Marines living there. When the Japanese invaded Wake Island, the men called for backup from the military. The US military sent ships toward the island but as the ships approached, decided to avoid an ugly battle (the Japanese invasion took place on the same day as Pearl Harbor) The argument was that the men on Wake Island had been captured and even though ships were en route to save them, orders came in to abort the mission. Word was sent back to the homeland that the men had fought a heroic battle for Wake Island but had all had been killed.
Nothing could be further from the truth. These few men had been told that ships were en route and fought tooth and nail to stay alive and not be captured. Many were killed but eventually many were taken as POWs.

Nearly four years later, my grandfather was released from captivity to return to America where everyone had forgotten about Wake Island.
And in the meantime the US Gov't had even funded a Hollywood film about Wake Island that showed a completely fictional story (!!!) about the battle for Wake Island and the heroic actions of the military to save the men from the Japanese. It was presented as a true story but was completely untrue.


Now I can understand that maybe the forces were needed back in Pearl Harbor where there were many more lives at stake, but what gets me is the government propaganda and lies they sold to the American people, for profit. And when my grandfather died, the Gov't refused to acknowledge his status as a POW. He did not receive any recognition until my grandmother was in her final year of life and there were only a handful of living POWs from Wake Island. They finally admitted that they had done wrong and offered a small sum of money to the surviving men and spouses. It was pathetic.

It was propaganda at its finest and no worse than anything the Nazis were selling to the German people. It was no worse than the blind patriotism that led the Japanese to follow their Emperor into a war that could not be won without the atomic bomb in their hands.

I have put these things behind me as I have grown older and come to better understand the complex dynamics of war and the Japanese culture, and the dangers of patriotism unchecked. In total war, there are no rules.

Anyone who thinks America is incapable of committing equally evil atrocities as the Axis countries did in WWII needs to spend some time with some unbiased history books. We have a very dark history and the stories in American school textbooks are very selective when it comes to the details. You will never read about this story unless you dig deep into the history of our great country. There are thousands of stories that are not told. The bottom line is that you can't rise to the top of the heap without crushing a few hands on the way up. And don't think for a minute that someday in a time of weakness, that the sharks will not be swarming around us.

ORIGINAL: BAY68_347

I have to stand up for Japan.
Please hear me out here...

I used to harbor some genuine resentment towards the Japanese because my grandfather was a Japanese POW in Wake Island for nearly the entire duration of WWII and was treated VERY poorly. But he did beat the odds and survived, even when the majority of his comrades, mostly civilian contractors and a few US Marines, died of starvation, disease, torture and execution.
In 1945 he came home to California damaged, but with a faith in God like nothing else.

When I took the time to read about his story, I learned that he and his buddies had been completely abandoned by the US Government. Wake Island was a US occupied territory with several hundred American civilian contractors and US Marines living there. When the Japanese invaded Wake Island, the men called for backup from the military. The US military sent ships toward the island but as the ships approached, decided to avoid an ugly battle (the Japanese invasion took place on the same day as Pearl Harbor) The argument was that the men on Wake Island had been captured and even though ships were en route to save them, orders came in to abort the mission. Word was sent back to the homeland that the men had fought a heroic battle for Wake Island but had all had been killed.
Nothing could be further from the truth. These few men had been told that ships were en route and fought tooth and nail to stay alive and not be captured. Many were killed but eventually many were taken as POWs.

Nearly four years later, my grandfather was released from captivity to return to America where everyone had forgotten about Wake Island.
And in the meantime the US Gov't had even funded a Hollywood film about Wake Island that showed a completely fictional story (!!!) about the battle for Wake Island and the heroic actions of the military to save the men from the Japanese. It was presented as a true story but was completely untrue.


Now I can understand that maybe the forces were needed back in Pearl Harbor where there were many more lives at stake, but what gets me is the government propaganda and lies they sold to the American people, for profit. And when my grandfather died, the Gov't refused to acknowledge his status as a POW. He did not receive any recognition until my grandmother was in her final year of life and there were only a handful of living POWs from Wake Island. They finally admitted that they had done wrong and offered a small sum of money to the surviving men and spouses. It was pathetic.

It was propaganda at its finest and no worse than anything the Nazis were selling to the German people. It was no worse than the blind patriotism that led the Japanese to follow their Emperor into a war that could not be won without the atomic bomb in their hands.

I have put these things behind me as I have grown older and come to better understand the complex dynamics of war and the Japanese culture, and the dangers of patriotism unchecked. In total war, there are no rules.

Anyone who thinks America is incapable of committing equally evil atrocities as the Axis countries did in WWII needs to spend some time with some unbiased history books. We have a very dark history and the stories in American school textbooks are very selective when it comes to the details. You will never read about this story unless you dig deep into the history of our great country. There are thousands of stories that are not told. The bottom line is that you can't rise to the top of the heap without crushing a few hands on the way up. And don't think for a minute that someday in a time of weakness, that the sharks will not be swarming around us.


Dude, I'm glad your grandfather made it back alive....really good story....I'm going to go do some reading on it....but I can't remember when I've seen a thread shift so far off topic.

What am I going to spend my $600 on.....nothing, I'm not getting a rebate.[:@]

In fact, I just got a statement from the IRS that I owe another $2900 in income tax for 2006....from money I received as severance, when my division was all laid off, because it is cheaper to do software R&D in India than in the US.

I lost my job, but got a severance....paid a lot of taxes on it, so it didn't go very far....now, I have a new job....for a Japanese company....and I'm going to have to pay taxes again for 2006, becausemy former companydidn't handle it right when I was laid off.

OOPS, I guess I drifted a little bit off topic, too.[sm=bustedsign.gif]

ORIGINAL: JapanGT



I am no economist, but spending your way of the brink of a recession has never worked. It's spending
that increases inflation, which when it gets out of hand generally leads to recession. But my comments
we not meant to offend, and maybe I should have added some smiley’s....





not so. inflation leads to inflation. now. combine poor handling of a recession you get stagflation which is high unemployment and high inflation.

some inflation is even good. when a economy experiences rapid growth like the 1920s. we create whats called demand pull inflation because everyone is employed and everyone has money to spend. lots of money chasing few goods.

recession and inflation are opposites. to get out of a recession you increase money supply to speed up the economy. in inflation you reduce the money supply to slow down the econmy.

the inflation we experience today is a result of high energy prices. not demand pull inflation or stagflation. its un natural economics because of the fact that supply and demand are not causing oil prices. a price floor and ceiling is. its unnatural and our economic system cannot manage this situation because the monopolies controlling the supply is not under american jurisdiction.

EXCESSIVE SPENDING REDUCES RECESSION. yes it increases inflation, but inflation is easier to control than recession.

any one guess how we got out of the great depression? try the hoover dam. the appalacian trail. social security, and my personal favorite world war II.

WWII and the great public projects of the 30s are the only reasons we came out of the recession.
this stimulus package is a simlilar attempt on a much lower scale.

btw i had my Micro/Macro economics exams today..

Nailed Macro against the wall.

micro.... id rather talk not talk about it.

Dude, I'm glad your grandfather made it back alive....really good story....I'm going to go do some reading on it....but I can't remember when I've seen a thread shift so far off topic.

The only way I can contribute to political threads is to hijack them. If I get political, I get in trouble.... Wait, I think even my non-political thread was, uh, political. Dammit. Let's talk about the weather. How's the weather in Japan? It is hot as hell here today. Like 95.

Oh, am I the only one who thinks it is funny how Apple products proudly claim "Designed by Apple in California. Assembled in Taiwan."??
Does this sound better than "MADE IN CHINA."?? :D

"The first casualty of war is truth".

War profiteering is nothing new but remains one of the most dispicable acts of mankind. - http://www.lexrex.com/enlightened/articles/warisaracket.htm

Bay 68 is correct. The Japanese tried for over 1/2 year to broker peace with the US in early 1945 but the US would not meet. This is documented but rarely discussed. Truman wanted to use the atomic bomb to send a message to Stalin as WWII was drawing to its conclusion. Stalin was not our friend, just our WWII allly. Truman did not do it to save lives. That is the official line but it is not truth.

There is a great documentary, "Why We Fight" that I wish all Americans could watch. Perhaps one of the most amazing points in the documentary is found in the extra clips - President Eisenhower's statements about how hospitals could be built and a lot of good could be done with our tax dollars but, instead, we waste it on excessive military spending... Eisenhower was a conservative republican whose statements, if stated today, would sound more like liberal Dennis Kucinich. That is how far right we in the US have shifted over the past 1/2 century.

My Godfather, rest his soul, was a WWII POW and was tortured. He refused to talk to me about it (I was very young at the time) but did mention a few things to my parents that were just inhuman. He had frequent nightares. It drove him to drink heavily once he returned stateside.

Torture, regardless of who perpetrates it, is inhumane and the torturers should be brought to justice. Japanese soldiers were convicted of war crimes for waterboarding our soldiers during WWII... and executed. Yet today it is common knowledge that a torture program was initiated at the top of the Bush Administration and some apologists have the audicity to applaud it??? Research the "Bybee Memo" if you are curious. Former JAG Alberto Mora is a true patriot! I encourage you to read on this if you want to know stuff past the headlines.

Unfortunately, we, like many peoples, are indoctrinated into a belief that if our enemy is bad we must be good. The world is cast as black and white. But reality ain't so neat.

Consider this - A couple of years ago the US bombed a mosque in Pakistan and killed ~ 16 inocent women and children. If Pakistan had bombed a Baptist church in the US, we would consider it terrorism. Even by our own legal definition as defined in the US Civil code, the bombing of the Pakistani mosque is terrorism on the part of the US. No way to argue around that one! Even more astonishing, Bush tells us that Pakistan is our "ally in the war on terrorism"... and we bomb them and kill innocent their innocent civilians. Sorry to break the news so some who refuse to face reality but, by our own legal definition, we are terrorists, too!

Unfortunately, this bombing in Pakistan is not an isolated incident. Acts such as this has earned us a world-wide reputation as terrorists. As a whole, we just refuse to believe that the US can be anything but righteous on the world stage... but we are not. Don't take my word for it. Read it yourself.

Just today on C-SPAN, former Iraq soldiers testified on Capitol Hill about the under-reported US military killing of Iraqi civilians. Some of these young men seemed barely old enough to shave but courageous enough to stand up and tell congress that the news we are told here by the mainstream media is not accurate. They tell of stateside soldiers sitting in their basements yelling at the lies being told by Fox News on their TV sets. Furthermore, I have heard reports that on newsstands in Cairo, Egypt there are pictures of the tortured detainees we have all seen from Abu Grahib.

All of this just reinforces the US as a bad actor on the world's stage. Our presence in Iraq is making matters more volatile, not less so.

Our Country, In her intercourse with foreign nations may she always be in the right; but right or wrong, she is still our country.

any clue who said that^^^^heres a clue. wasnt the dixie chicks.

anyways. sure no one ever said that america is an angel. as a matter of fact we are jerks.

cause we kick the most a**.

nowadays everyone wants to be politically correct. but the world aint that nice. so i hate to break it to all the hippies out there hoping for peace. but that will never happen. i seem to remember alot of support for the war in the begining.

we should not blame bush for all the economic downfalls and military efforts. we should be blaming ourselves

heres one for you.

1. who ever said the government is responsible for the economy? its called capitalism people. bush didnt say. "hey everyone. get sub prime morgatges you cant afford!" we the people are responsible for our combined foolish mistake.

2. bush does not handle day to day war strategy. thats what the generals do. we all attack bush because hes in clear view. but if your tired of this war. complain to the generals and explain to them that you dont want to be in a war anymore and to finish the job.

3.IF YOU DO HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HOW THE GOVERNMENT HANDLES THINGS THEN GO JOIN THE ARMY AND DO IT YOURSELF. im sure there are some veterans on here. but this is addressing any college student that complains about the war in iraq. most of us dont know what goes on. we read news reports that could be as crooked as anything else. for some reason we believe the media more than our government.

im a college student. and i find it annoying when i see kids parading for peace.

i dont support the war in iraq anymore. but i dont agree with leaving the middle east. BECAUSE I LIKE DRIVING CLASSIC MUSCLE CARS THAT RUN OFF MIDDLE EASTERN OIL. but i do have faith in our government and our current president.

and before you jump all out of your seat to argue my rant, id like only the Yale or Harvard graduates to answer. because bush went there. most of us didnt. or if your a Veteran. then you can tell me to shove it. but 90% of us didnt go to an Ivy league school. and 90% of us didnt serve in the military.

rant ended at 10:55:46


PS we are off topic.

I <3 how everything goes back to bush and the war. we should be talking about Brittney spears. thats way more interesting.

ORIGINAL: BAY68_347

Dude, I'm glad your grandfather made it back alive....really good story....I'm going to go do some reading on it....but I can't remember when I've seen a thread shift so far off topic.

The only way I can contribute to political threads is to hijack them. If I get political, I get in trouble.... Wait, I think even my non-political thread was, uh, political. Dammit. Let's talk about the weather. How's the weather in Japan? It is hot as hell here today. Like 95.

Oh, am I the only one who thinks it is funny how Apple products proudly claim "Designed by Apple in California. Assembled in Taiwan."??
Does this sound better than "MADE IN CHINA."?? :D




Hey, I wasn't saying that all the political commentary was bad....in fact I really enjoy politics talk, it's healthy....I just always find it funny how this "Stream of Consciousness" format (Forums) tend to drift on and off topic so easily....ie. starts out by asking how are we going to spend money that the government is giving us back for a change and ends up talking about how someones grandfather was taken POW in WWII, and that our government was at fault (BTW, I think the Japanese had a little to do with it).....again not saying anything bad about your Grandfather he sounds like a hero to me.....I just enjoy watching the topics drift.


[sm=patriot.gif]

yeah this is way OT but....:D


anyways you wanna end this war quick bring back the draft see how fast it stops;)

Several observations about this thread.

1. It's your money they giving you not the governments.

2. People on the government dole aren't getting it because they already get someone elses money.

3. Knock Honda and Toyota all you want, but they build the cars here employing Americans not in Mexico or Canada.

4. NAFTA was passed under Clinton.

As always, I am baffled by a few (not most) responses.

1. Who mentioned anything about political correctness? I thought this thread was discussing the economic stimulus package and, by direct association, fiscal responsibility.

2. Again an assumption was made that is way off base. Just because I and a HUGE chorus of both conservative and liberal economists have bashed the Bush fiscal policy of the past 7+ years does not mean that I (or they) thought Clinton's policies were nirvana. That is exactly the type of response that those who see the world in balck and white terms tend to offer. NAFTA, praised by many economists on both sides of the political spectrum, has resulted in the loss of American jobs. Since I am pro-America, I do not like NAFTA. But I do understand the pro-NAFTA argument and can see where it "may be good down the road"... but, right now, it has created a lot of misery for us!

3. I am a capitalist. I believe in free markets. It is laughable if anyone thinks that true "free markets" abound. We subsidize industries, for example - Oil companies, with Billions of US tax dollars. By definition, that is not a free market - that subsidy gives them an advantage in the market place and helps squelch competition. Free markets work when they are unfettered by either excessive regulation or unfair subsidies. Free markets work when competition is allowed on a level playing field. Subsidies pervert free markets and pervert true capitalism. BTW, this type of subsidy to large companies is called "Corporate Socialism". Exxon makes record profits and we give them Billions in subsidies... and these clowns insult our intelligence by talking up free market capitalism... what a joke.

4. I'm glad AV8 admitted that the US are jerks. I agree that we can be jerks but we can be angels, too. I hope your comments will help dispell the myth that the terrorists want to harm us because they "Envy our Freedom". If anyone wants to trace the recent history of the birth of radical Muslim extremism (not the Christian Crusades but one centered upon geopolitics and oil) a great starting point is "All The Shah's Men" by Stephen Kinzler. We staged a coup of a Democratically elected leader (Time Magazine's man of the year for 1953) for one thing and one thing only - OIL. We replaced him with a brutal dictator. Reza Shah. The Shah of Iran was a puppet of both the US and Britain for decades. Read it and learn.

5. Some are too young to remember Vietnam. Kids who dropped out of college, or who could not afford it, being drafted and some did not come back. Re-install the draft, have the middle and upper class kids get their limbs blown off by IEDs and see how fast the occupation ends. Rumsfeld does not even allow returning bodies to be filmed. This keeps the ugly aspect of this conflict to a minimum. If you believe in freedom, then it should be allowed to view the incoming bodies. Out of sight... out of mind.

6. A top VA administrator tried to cover up GI suicide rates which is very high. Again, who ya gonna trust?

As for the checks - they should help in the short term. But it is our money... our tax dollars to begin with.

Just a minor correction to Mustdoc.....I'm not the one who said americans are jerks.

I've tried to stay off the politics of this thread and just comment on what I thought was funny about how the thread had run completely off topic....no matter how you justify whythethreadgot to where it is at right now, the original post was a normal Mustang post checking to see if anyone had Parts buying plans with the small windfall of money being rebated by the government.

Since I'm in on it I'll say this. I've been all over the world (5 continents and at least 25 or 30 countries) both with the military and in the private sector (my job), and I'llstate my opinionclearly....The United States of America is the greatest country on the face of the planet, for now. Our government is the longest standing unchanged government in the world (name an older one), because it is the best that has been formulated, so far. Are there some aspects of other countries that are better than the US? Of course.

I voted for Bush, and would do it again given the same alternatives. Do I think that the Bush administration is behind the rise of fuel prices? Yes, partly (Bush has too many ties to big oil, and too much profit for Exxon). A large part of what's going on in our economy, though, is due to the rapid ermergence of markets in the Asian/Pacific Rim region (mostly China and India). There is now much more competition for natural resources. 50 years ago,the only thingthose countries wanted or neededwas rice, now they have jobs and cars and they need fuel, HD TV's, Air Conditioners....supply and demand.

Mustdoc, I agree with many of the things you say, but to imply that the current state of the economy is due to the government is just election year bunk. For decades the US has had it easy with little competition in the world market. Now other countries have figured out that we were doing things right and they want some of the good life, too. For now, the numbers are on their side, and there is little that our government can do about it (Democrats or Republicans).

Oh well, my .02

AV, I suspect you and I agree more than disagree.

My father served in WWII and my uncle in Korea. And they are appalled by the treatment vets have received and are receiving. I have worked in VA hospitals many years (the good ones) and have heard horror stories from vets about the bad VA hospitals and clinics. I have been to Walter Reed many times in the past and it was not as bad as it is now. It breaks my heart to see ths crap.

As for Bush, I am afraid I agree with the majority who view him as one of the worst presidents of all time. He has the lowest approval rating since Gallop began taking their poll and that is not because he is undeserving.

True conservatives like Bruce Bartlett, Bob Barr, Bruce Fein (asst. AG under Reagan), Ron Paul, etc... consider him an imposter. Fein, who brought up articles of impeachment against Clinton has also called to impeach Bush and Cheney!!!

Many Christians I know believe he was not truthful about his faith given the fruits he bore (he is a war monger, his policies have helped the extremely wealthy over the poor and middle class, lies too numerous to count, he commonly uses foul language in private reports, and I have been told that his church attendance record is worse than Bill Clinton's... not that Bill is a standard bearer in this arena.).

His administration has consistently surpressed or altered scientific reports that they do not like (e.g. global warming) perverting the pursuit of scientific knowledge. He and his "principals" (look up ABC news report on this reference) knew they were torturing detainees. Ashcroft even stated that "History will not judge us kindly". For crying out loud, even the prosecutor of Charles Manson, Vince Bugliosi, has a book coming out making a case for "W" as a murderer. The abundance of data is overwhelming.

Bush told a reporter that he gave up golf as a sacrifice for the troops. Not only is that insulting, but a few months later, he was back playing golf again.

How many lies does it take before everyone sees him for what he is - a spoiled little new england kid of privlege transplanted to Texas, raised in the finest and most expensive schools the US has to offer (Andover prepatory school, Yale undergrad and Harvard Business school - how did a "C" student at Yale get into Harvard Business school??? Daddy got him in, of course.) and ducked real Vietnam combat by serving in the Texas air national guard where he went AWOL and nobody seemed to complain.

If you are from Texas, check out David Cay Johnston's book, "Free Lunch" and see where he fleeced the Texas taxpayers in the Texas Rangers baseball deal for MILLIONS. He is a tax-subsidized millionaire and his followers either do not seem to care or simply are not aware of his actions because they are never talked about on Fox News, or rush, or Hannity, etc...


After WWII, intense psychological research was undertaken to investigate the personality traits that allowed people to follow Hitler and Mussolini. The past 7 years has been a veritable classroom in regard to authoritarinism... both fear-induced followers (Rudy G saying 911 every other breath hoping to gain support) and authoritarian-type leaders. Bush and his cronies meet most of the characteristics for an authoritarian leader type. Unfortunately, most southern republicans are classic authoritarian followers. (No, I am not a Democrat and yes, I have voted for many Repuclicans in the past). This is textbook behavior. For those of us familiar with the research, it is darn scary!

As for Keynsian economics and Military Keynsianism... that will have to wait.

If you put your faith in any man you will be dissapointed. Even heros in the Binle did terrible things. Davidordered his general to march at the front line of a battle so he would be killed and David could take his wife.

There no longer any sincere congreesmen/senators. They are all lawyers and in it for a career, not to make things better.

As far as big corperationsand taxes... corperations should pay no tax because any profit they make is paid to stock holders and they have to pay personal income on it. To say it's a subsized business becausethey are not taxed twice is twisting the truth.

ORIGINAL: arkight

I only read a couple of the posts but i will say this. If you want to spent the money on american stuff buy beer and golf. You cant go to Walmart and buy something you will be buying chineese. Just go get drunk and play golf. :)



I just bought a whole new set of ping irons to help stimulate the economy, oh yeah made in Phoenix, Arizona. Hey you could also put it to enjoying a lovely season of DiamondBacks baseball!!!! GO D-BACKS!!!!!!

Well I somewhat feel as if I have jumped into the off topic section, it is interesting in there when you want to be chewed out :D... Well this has turned into quite the economic discussion, I wished I would have noticed before the thread was 60 posts in!:D
The economic policy of tax brakes and refunds is something that is regular economic practice and has been proven to work in the past, well as long as people don't just hold on to thier refund. I look at this type of economic policy as a chance for growth, for me my golf game, and who knows for others. It can kind of be related to how business' big and small in recent years have been able to write off $100000 in taxes in order to promote business growth and it really has worked, both in assets and creating jobs. The dollar is weak but the economy is not as bad as it seems.

The question of how you spend your funding for oppertunity is a great question?:D

Oh I also completely agree that people should not spend money they do not have, credit cards can be pure garbage... Well good luck and keep stimulating our economy. American parts and cars FTW!:D

Who said I was putting my faith in any man? I have, however, heard countless people state that we now have "God" in the white house... these are the naive folks who put their faith in a particular man. A faith that appears a bit blind.

I cannot agree more with you that we have the best government money can buy... but short of violent revolution, which I cannot condone, voting remains the principle way to effect change (unless you are a lobby who can throw a lot of $ at the politicians and write legislation for them as is the case today!!!).

As for government subsidies, it is a simple argument that if one business receives advantages that another does not because of government intervention, that is not fair competition nor is it a true free market. Subsidize biofuels to the extent that we do big oil and see what happens! Let others bid for contracts awarded to Halliburton and see how much less we pay out in tax dollars. But no. Instead, Cheney arranges for No-bid contracts and the "free market capitalism" myth continues on. This is not free market capitalism in any shape or form. It is "corporate socialism".

Also, let's not confuse subsidies with tax breaks and tax policy. Corporations, depending upon how they are structured and certain laws governing their industries, have different tax advantages and disadvantages. Some CEOs can defer salaries and this means that they can defer taxes (a tax deferred is a tax not yet paid and one not paid is called profit.). Later they reap enormous tax advantages that non-ceos cannot (Read David Cay Johnston's "Perfectly Legal" to see how the wealthiest in this country pay the least in taxes!). Look up the advantage Hedge fund managers have with regard t their income and how it can be treated. It is obscene.

Look at how the IRS targets the poor and lower middle class because their tax returns are easier to investigate than large corporations or the very wealthy. As it has been explained - to the the IRS, a tax case is a tax case, as far as the numbers go. Prosecute 20 cases, win a promotion. Drag an Enron type case on for 3 years and receive a demotion... despite the fact that Enron could have made to pay millions in unpaid taxes if the investigation was not called off by Republicans!!!

A "violent revolution" can be done at the polls (have we forgot what made thiscountry?). Nobody seems to care anymore. Its past time we change out these empty suites, at least it will take a while to corrupt the new ones. Congrossmen bust our SS fund, theirSS fundis safe. I give them credit, they take very good care of themselfs. They even voted to give themselfs a rasie a few months ago, can we vote not to pay it? They can't take one for the team? What a bunch of duds. They are at the beach while you work. My money will go into savings.

Amen on the politicians 67!

ORIGINAL: 67 evil eleanor

A "violent revolution" can be done at the polls (have we forgot what made thiscountry?). Nobody seems to care anymore. Its past time we change out these empty suites, at least it will take a while to corrupt the new ones. Congressmen bust our SS fund, theirSS fundis safe. I give them credit, they take very good care of themselfs. They even voted to give themselfs a rasie a few months ago, can we vote not to pay it? They can't take one for the team? What a bunch of duds. They are at the beach while you work. My money will go into savings.





thats one of the reason I love ron paul in office he only takes half of his pay and doesnt participate in the congressional retirement plan at all. he feels they get paid way to much

Amen rmodel

The only guys that make any sense to me on a consistent basis are Ron Paul on the right/Libertarian front and Ralph Nader on the left/progressive/consumer advocate front. Both recognize the big problem - corporate/banking/mainstream media stranglehold on the US government and itw people - but each seeks remedy by different approaches.

The manistream media has portrayed each as fringe players. The mainstream candidates exclude them from meaningful debates because they are afraid people may wake up and actually listen to what they have been saying for many years... and realize that the other candidates are corporate sycophants and lobby puppets.

People forget - Ralph Nader was the most respected man in the US during the 1970s. That was before the business lobbys designated him an enemy and waged a propaganda campaign to tarnish his name. As a car enthusiast, I love him. He has made car safety an imperative and his diligence has resulted in seat belts, air bags, better crash testing, etc. What is there not to like about this???

I wish Ron Paul and Ralph would sit down and join forces for the benefit of America.