Whats up MF members.
Im doing a paper on the confederate flag. I was wondering what your viewpoints are on the confederate flag?

some people fly it for both. others just hate niggers. and the other others do it for heritage....of what, i don't know.

They belong in the back windows of big lifted Chevys next to the shotgun rack.

The retards you see flying it around that are doing it for 'hate' reasons are usually people who couldnt tell you 1 fact from the Civil War or even tell you what the Confederate States of America were. Trash is trash.

My mom has one, though she has not had it out in a few years and I can assure you that she does not fly it to 'intimidate or show hate' towards anyone.

no way dude, the civic war was all about their rights being violated, not slavery.

If they can tell me the who the President of the CSA was, I'll let it go.

hmmmm

well let me answer your question with another question:

is a swastika considered german heritage?

if you fly it for heritage [and actually know about the civil war], more power to you. i love studying the civil war.

if you fly it for hate, then you suck.

ORIGINAL: Joolander

hmmmm

well let me answer your question with another question:

is a swastika considered german heritage?



not really, because as I understand it Hitler wanted an instantly recognizable symbol that would represent the Nazi worker's party.

The German flag at the time was still red, yellow, black and had the crest of an eagle on it correct?
The Stars and Bars represents an entire seceeded nation, not the identity of a political party.

no, east and west germany went back to different versions of the black red and gold in 1949

during the war and just before, the red w/ white circle and swastika inside represented the entire nation of germany and all regions they had conquered

This question tears me up. As a direct decendant of a Confederate soldier, I love the South.

When I fly my Confederate battleflag, well, nowdays it hangs on the wall of my garage, it has nothing to do with 'hate'.

That being said, I can certainly see why some people view it as a symbol of hate and bigotry. When the good people of the South sat idly by and let the flag be co-opted as a symbolof the white supremacy groups of all stripes and said nothing we lost our flag.

Shame on us.

The confederate flag is not hate. In its conception no one had it in mind that "colored folks are going to fear and hate this flag." The flag today is just a rememberance of that proud southern heratage. It can be argued that it's now being used by hate groups. But so is the American flag does that meen it shouldnt be flown ither? I personally dont see it as hate and proudly fly the confederate flag. It really shows that a Nation shouldnt try to intrude upon a person's rights and over tax them.

http://www.marcandjana.info/events/images/2002/southcarolina/2002_SC_ColumbiaStatehouseWithFlag.JPG




Im proud to come from a state that does recognise this (South Carolina) and still fly's the flag maybe not on the state house but upon the steps of the State house. Americans northern and southern fought for and died for that flag. It's as much my heratage as anyone eles's.
Personally the Confederate flag does meen alot to me. It identifies my region, my family my rights and the fact that I am southern. Some may get and others dont. But I do feel that the truth should be taught about the Civil War and not simply forgotten or tought that the North was right and South was wrong.


FACT the Ku Klux Klan when marched on Washington DC didnt fly the Confederate flag. But only flew the American Flag.

http://library.thinkquest.org/05aug/00158/images/kkkmarchonwashington.jpg


But if you dont feel the same as I then just let this flag stand as a rememberance of the countless that have died for it. And the FACT that the nation shall not be the agressor upon its own people.

Anyone that flies it today is in my books a loser. Because they lost the war. But no it's not heritage, people can change I like to think.

ORIGINAL: Doommaker

Anyone that flies it today is in my books a loser. Because they lost the war. But no it's not heritage, people can change I like to think.



And I call you ignorant.

You shoudnt forget the countless men and women that died for it even if you think it's a unjust cause. Now I do agree there is a certan ignorance in some people about the meaning of the flag. But that is life and I have come to expect such things I blame the schools personally. And there is a differance in ignorance and stupidity.

I personally don't care if it's for heritage or for hate, but I dothink that it isa little ridiculous to be flying the flag outside of court houses and on goverment property. The flag can mean many different things, especially if you're from the south, but I just can't understand flying the rebel flag on goverment property.

ORIGINAL: Redneck97

ORIGINAL: Doommaker

Anyone that flies it today is in my books a loser. Because they lost the war. But no it's not heritage, people can change I like to think.



And I call you ignorant.

You shoudnt forget the countless men and women that died for it even if you think it's a unjust cause. Now I do agree there is a certan ignorance in some people about the meaning of the flag. But that is life and I have come to expect such things I blame the schools personally. And there is a differance in ignorance and stupidity.



Yeah lets not forget the people that died for the swastika, they deserve a round of applause as well. It's not like the north and south came from the same ancestors (i.e. east europeans), but yet just becuase they were in the south they must be proud cuz it's hot.

My question is, what is it that you're proud of? What did you accomplish that any other "American" didn't? Hold land and had it run by slaves? Invent the cotton gin? I mean wtf, it's America. United we stand, we all share the glory.

How does that flag make you any different from the Mexicans that fly the Mexican flag on thier bumper stickers or anything of that matter? You're rooting for the wrong team so therefore you are a communist![:@]

I did a paper of the causes of the civil war. This my shed some light on those of you who are unfamiliar with the subject.

Some say simplistically that the Civil War was fought over slavery. The causes of the war were a complex series of events, including slavery that began long before the war even started. Competing nationalisms, political turmoil, the definition of freedom, the preservation of the Union, the fate of slavery and the structure of our society and economy are all significant factors that play a role in the crumbling nation.
The North favored a loose interpretation of the United States Constitution. They wanted to grant the federal government increased powers. The South wanted to reserve all undefined powers to the individual states. The North also wanted internal improvements sponsored by the federal government. This was more roads, railroads, and canals. The South, on the other hand, did not want these projects to be done at all. Also the North wanted to develop a tariff. With a high tariff, it protected the Northern manufacturer. It was bad for the South because a high tariff would not let the south trade its cotton for foreign goods. The North also wanted a good banking and currency system and federal subsidies for shipping and internal improvements. The South felt these were discriminatory and that they favored Northern commercial interests.
The main reason for the South’s secession was the Slavery issue. Basically the South wanted and needed it and the North did not want it at all. The South was going to do anything they could to keep it. At this time the labor force in the South had about 4 million slaves. These slaves were very valuable to the slaveholding planter class. They were a huge investment to Southerners and if taken away, could mean massive losses to everyone. Slaves were used in the South as helpers in the fields in the cultivation of tobacco, rice, and indigo, as well as many other jobs. The South especially needed more slaves at this time because they were now growing more cotton then ever because of the invention of the cotton gin. Cotton production with slaves jumped from 178,000 bales in 1810 to over 3,841,000 bales in 1860. Within that time period of 50 years the number of slaves also rose from about 1,190,000 to over 4,000,000. The plantation owners in the South could not understand why the North wanted slavery abolished that bad.
Southerners compared it with the wage-slave system of the North. They said that the slaves were better cared for then the free factory workers in the North. Southerners said that slave owners provided shelter, food, care, and regulation for a race unable to compete in the modern world without proper training. Many Southern preachers proclaimed that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, but after the American Revolution slavery really died in the North, just as it was becoming more popular in the South. By the time of 1804 seven of the northern most states had abolished slavery. During this time a surge of democratic reform swept the North and West. There were demands for political equality and economic and social advances. The Northerners goals were free public education, better salaries and working conditions for workers, rights for women, and better treatment for criminals. The South felt these views were not important. All of these views eventually led to an attack on the slavery system in the South, and showed opposition to its spread into whatever new territories that were acquired. Northerners said that slavery revoked the human right of being a free person. Now with all these views the North set out on its quest for the complete abolition of slavery.
When new territories became available in the West the South wanted to expand and use slavery in the newly acquired territories, but the North opposed to this and wanted to stop the extension of slavery into new territories. The North wanted to limit the number of slave states in the Union. But many Southerners felt that a government dominated by Free states could endanger existing slaveholdings. The South wanted to protect their states rights. The first evidence of the North’s actions came in 1819 when Missouri asked to be admitted to the Union as a slave state. After months of discussion Congress passed the Missouri Compromise of 1820. This compromise was legislative measures that regulated the extension of slavery in the United States for three decades. Now the balance of 11 Free states and 11 slave states was in trouble.
The conflict that led to succession was during the presidential election of 1860. The newly formed Republican Party nominated Abraham Lincoln on principles that opposed the further expansion of slavery. Now with Lincoln being elected the South really felt that expansionism was being threatened, and because expansion was vital to the survival of slavery they also felt their way of life was being threatened. Slavery was such an important part of Southern society, the South felt that they could not survive without it. Now they felt there was nothing more they could do. They were convinced that they should make a bid for independence by succeeding rather then face political encirclement.

ORIGINAL: cominus

ORIGINAL: Redneck97

ORIGINAL: Doommaker

Anyone that flies it today is in my books a loser. Because they lost the war. But no it's not heritage, people can change I like to think.



And I call you ignorant.

You shoudnt forget the countless men and women that died for it even if you think it's a unjust cause. Now I do agree there is a certan ignorance in some people about the meaning of the flag. But that is life and I have come to expect such things I blame the schools personally. And there is a differance in ignorance and stupidity.



Yeah lets not forget the people that died for the swastika, they deserve a round of applause as well. It's not like the north and south came from the same ancestors (i.e. east europeans), but yet just becuase they were in the south they must be proud cuz it's hot.

My question is, what is it that you're proud of? What did you accomplish that any other "American" didn't? Hold land and had it run by slaves? Invent the cotton gin? I mean wtf, it's America. United we stand, we all share the glory.

How does that flag make you any different from the Mexicans that fly the Mexican flag on thier bumper stickers or anything of that matter? You're rooting for the wrong team so therefore you are a communist![:@]



Thanks for calling me a communist I guess I joined the wrong Air Force?

But what am I proud of? Im personally proud of my state my country my family that has fought and died for this nation. Yes im very proud of my great great grand father who died for what he beilived in. He was a confederate soldier and I feel that it is my heritage. I am very proud of the fact that I am southern. My ancestors fought for what they felt was right. I dont feel that they should be forgotten. And you comparing them to a nazi is very well disrespectfull of you. My family owned no slaves but fought for the confederacy. As MOST of the people did. Ever heard of a rich man war poor mans fight?

This is one of those perception issues. Those that fly it for hate hide behind the heratige argument. Those who truely fly it for heratige are tarnished by those who fly it for hateful reasons. If you study the civil war a little bit, you realize that it was really not about slavery. It was about economics and logistics. Slavery was the "evil" that was championed as a reason to support the war. Does this sound familiar? It's been used by every Administration since to support conflict du jour since.

The fact is, states rights was the reason the South succeded. Yes, slavery was one of the states rights issues. but so was the right to trade cash crops with Europe at a better rate on the world market where they got a better price for it than sending it to the mills in the north. There was in fact a laundry list of complaints the southern states had with the federal government that were ignored. They were ignored because they were in the minority seats it held in Congress and the House of Representatives.

Knowing this history, I see the flag, it reminds us of how much freedom we don't have and how little say we actually have in our government.

ORIGINAL: chriswells78

This is one of those perception issues. Those that fly it for hate hide behind the heratige argument. Those who truely fly it for heratige are tarnished by those who fly it for hateful reasons. If you study the civil war a little bit, you realize that it was really not about slavery. It was about economics and logistics. Slavery was the "evil" that was championed as a reason to support the war. Does this sound familiar? It's been used by every Administration since to support conflict du jour since.

The fact is, states rights was the reason the South succeded. Yes, slavery was one of the states rights issues. but so was the right to trade cash crops with Europe at a better rate on the world market where they got a better price for it than sending it to the mills in the north. There was in fact a laundry list of complaints the southern states had with the federal government that were ignored. They were ignored because they were in the minority seats it held in Congress and the House of Representatives.

Knowing this history, I see the flag, it reminds us of how much freedom we don't have and how little say we actually have in our government.



+1

You also have to remember that the emancipation proclamation wasnt even signed untill 1863. And was singed as a way to get back at the slave holders. It was mainly a strategy to hopefully start a slave up rising (that never happened BTW).

heres a question...my dixieland airhorn in my mustang....(for those that dont know thats the dukes of hazrd horn)...its friggin loud and i hit it before i do burnouts...some people say thats a hate thing? is it?

Those are the same ignorant assholes that complain about the general lee charger being racist because of the flag on the roof and the name. Like I said I don't care if you fly it for hate or heritage, but I think the flags shouldn't be flown outside of government buildings, for christ's sake, it's another countries flag.[&:]

I'm gonna fly a swastika because I think bugs are good cars and I want to pay homage to their heritage. How dare people look at me as a nazi just because I like VW bugs.
It doesn't really matter what someone's stupid personal opinion of the confederate flag is, and as much as I hate it when people say, "it is what it is", that saying applies perfectly to the confederate fags.

Well, there are two aspects to it:

As a historical icon, the confederate battle flag is obviously a massively important piece of American history. Any attempt to "cleanse" it from history is absolutely stupid. I have an entire room of my house dedicated to military history, and the battle flag shows up in eight or ten different places, as it should, and make an annual pilgrimage to Gettysburg, and have a great deal of love for the flag as a piece of history, and military history in particular.

However, as a modern day symbol, I have no "respect" for it. Personally I view the CSA (and it was Jeff Davis, btw) as a rebel group which was dedicated to destroying the United States. Confederate soldiers killed American soldiers. No ifs, ands, or buts. I feel like Americans who live in the southern states should appreciate their ancestors (blood is thicker than patriotism) but to fly the flag is, to me, flying the flag of an enemy force. I am SHOCKED when soldiers fly it; it is flying the flag of an enemy military force (and yes, it is a battle flag, not the National flag)... an enemy force that killed hundreds of thousands of American soldiers.

As for it being used as a symbol for skinheads and the like, ehhh... I don't care about that as much. It isn't really a symbol of that, but if someone uses it as such, that is more their business and I'll ignore it.

ORIGINAL: Redneck97

ORIGINAL: cominus

ORIGINAL: Redneck97

ORIGINAL: Doommaker

Anyone that flies it today is in my books a loser. Because they lost the war. But no it's not heritage, people can change I like to think.



And I call you ignorant.

You shoudnt forget the countless men and women that died for it even if you think it's a unjust cause. Now I do agree there is a certan ignorance in some people about the meaning of the flag. But that is life and I have come to expect such things I blame the schools personally. And there is a differance in ignorance and stupidity.



Yeah lets not forget the people that died for the swastika, they deserve a round of applause as well. It's not like the north and south came from the same ancestors (i.e. east europeans), but yet just becuase they were in the south they must be proud cuz it's hot.

My question is, what is it that you're proud of? What did you accomplish that any other "American" didn't? Hold land and had it run by slaves? Invent the cotton gin? I mean wtf, it's America. United we stand, we all share the glory.

How does that flag make you any different from the Mexicans that fly the Mexican flag on thier bumper stickers or anything of that matter? You're rooting for the wrong team so therefore you are a communist![:@]



Thanks for calling me a communist I guess I joined the wrong Air Force?




Yeah sorry about that, communist was probably a wrong word. More like biggot, but I dont want to get into a name calling argument, oh yeah because college isnt for everybody.

You should have joined the navy, the South was like the first to have invented a submarine, well sorta.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h00001/h00999t.jpg (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-us-cs/csa-sh/csash-hl/hunley.htm)

I agree with everything said. i see yalls point of views and by all means keep it coming. i mean hell i got a already written paper and some good facts too. I also live in South Carolina and yes we do fly the flag on our state house grounds. its badass. it used to be on the top of the state capitol building but they took it down because people complained so much. it was right under that american flag.


TTT

I'm from Mississippi and our state flag still contains the confederate flag. I personally do not fly a confederate flag, but I think it's stupid to call everyone who flies them ignorant rednecks. I am proud to be from the south along with plenty of other people around here. I do agree that there are quite a few people that fly the flag for racial purposes, but generalizing that everyone is like that is an incorrect stereotype.

ORIGINAL: Redneck97

ORIGINAL: Doommaker

Anyone that flies it today is in my books a loser. Because they lost the war. But no it's not heritage, people can change I like to think.



And I call you ignorant.

You shoudnt forget the countless men and women that died for it even if you think it's a unjust cause. Now I do agree there is a certan ignorance in some people about the meaning of the flag. But that is life and I have come to expect such things I blame the schools personally. And there is a differance in ignorance and stupidity.



Plenty of people died for stupid causes, doesn't make them heroes. What about all the men and women that died fighting AGAINST them? How can you choose to value one side over the other? You gain nothing by saying Americans died over it, because Americans also died fighting against it. Until you prove their lives were worth more than everyone's on the other side you're just wrong. I'm not claiming one side was better than the other. Just calling it how I see it. I still regard them as losers, because that's just what they are. But how can you call me ignorant? I think I know enough about the flag to have a justified opinion on the matter...I really don't even think it's a big deal. People can fly whatever flag they want and I won't care. I think the people flying it make a bigger deal out of it than the people who protest against it honestly. They beg for that kind of attention it seems. The last thing I would give them is my attention though, I've never said a word against anyone flying it other than in these last few posts. I just think we have bigger problems in the world than some 100 year old debate.

i have several relatives from down south, as well as the north, where i reside...also have relatives in germany, who during ww2 would have technically been fighting against my relatives who had immigrated years before...now that's messed up... rebel flag, let's see here...i think in general, it is used by people that want to project a redneck hick image (even rich yuppie people do it ----in the NORTH!!!)....we should, however, also recognize that not every person in the south back then was a slave owner...the rich, sure, but the poor farmer, def not...and who do you think fought the war? the poor farmers b/c they were fed a bunch of garbage about how the union would ruin their way of life...pretty ridiculous...having your nation believe something by using fear tactics way back in the day. so, i think that if you're really into your family heritage, go for it, but if you're just an ignorantbigot, i don't really have anything to say about that...andi'm pretty sure that even though i've had ancestors fighting on each side of every war mentioned thus far, NO flags are flown by any of my family members, other than my great uncle who recently died (he was a ww2 purple hear recipient - my gpa quit school at 16 and somehow got in the military after he was injured andwas at d-day...then later went to korea)......and then my other gpa flew a family coat of arms flag...JMPOV

ORIGINAL: cominus

ORIGINAL: Redneck97

ORIGINAL: cominus

ORIGINAL: Redneck97

ORIGINAL: Doommaker

Anyone that flies it today is in my books a loser. Because they lost the war. But no it's not heritage, people can change I like to think.



And I call you ignorant.

You shoudnt forget the countless men and women that died for it even if you think it's a unjust cause. Now I do agree there is a certan ignorance in some people about the meaning of the flag. But that is life and I have come to expect such things I blame the schools personally. And there is a differance in ignorance and stupidity.



Yeah lets not forget the people that died for the swastika, they deserve a round of applause as well. It's not like the north and south came from the same ancestors (i.e. east europeans), but yet just becuase they were in the south they must be proud cuz it's hot.

My question is, what is it that you're proud of? What did you accomplish that any other "American" didn't? Hold land and had it run by slaves? Invent the cotton gin? I mean wtf, it's America. United we stand, we all share the glory.

How does that flag make you any different from the Mexicans that fly the Mexican flag on thier bumper stickers or anything of that matter? You're rooting for the wrong team so therefore you are a communist![:@]



Thanks for calling me a communist I guess I joined the wrong Air Force?




Yeah sorry about that, communist was probably a wrong word. More like biggot, but I dont want to get into a name calling argument, oh yeah because college isnt for everybody.

You should have joined the navy, the South was like the first to have invented a submarine, well sorta.

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/h00001/h00999t.jpg (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-us-cs/csa-sh/csash-hl/hunley.htm)





How can you sit there and say you dont want to get into a name calling argument when you going to sit there and call me a "Communist" and a "Biggot"
(Oh by the way you spelled bigot wrong.:eek:) It's very easy to try to use words. And not be educated enough to use them. yeah because college isnt for everybody. (its the effort that counts right....?)

I quote Communism is.
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.

Now lets get to basics I for one dont support communism if I did I wouldnt be joining a fighting force that supports and defends and spreads Democracy across the world. Or would I taken a pledge to support and defend the constituion of the United States. Also the south supported less goverment and also had a very similar constitution to the United States. (surprise right?)

You also attempt to call me a Biggot and you seem to not know what that meens.
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.
Now I dont feel like ive come off as a prejudice person. Nor am I intolerant of anyones opinions etc. I dont have a problem with one because of there race or creed. It's easy to resort to name calling and atempting to sound smart. But you fail.

Also the CSS Hunely was the first to sink a ship wich was completly accidental. And they didnt event the submarine. :eek:

But its okay I wouldnt know nothing like that becuase ima big "biggot" [X(];)

ttt

ORIGINAL: Redneck97
But its okay I wouldnt know nothing like that becuase ima big "biggot" [X(];)


Double negative FTL! [8D]

How can you sit there and say you dont want to get into a name calling argument when you going to sit there and call me a "Communist" and a "Biggot"
(Oh by the way you spelled bigot wrong.:eek:) It's very easy to try to use words. And not be educated enough to use them.
OooOOo, grammar Nazi, my bad. I didnt mean communist, that was just the first thing that came to mind, and bigot, well "Redneck97" that drives a camaro, and flies a conferderate flag, yeah I guess im a stereo type, my apologies.

(its the effort that counts right....?)
No.


I quote Communism is.
A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
The authoritarian is always a bad person, if it was Jesusit would probably be USA II.

Now lets get to basics I for one dont support communism if I did I wouldnt be joining a fighting force that supports and defends and spreads Democracy across the world. Or would I taken a pledge to support and defend the constituion of the United States. Also the south supported less goverment and also had a very similar constitution to the United States. (surprise right?)
They didnt support less government, they just wanted to decentralize it, which in turn was the reason why it collapsed, neither state wanted to share it's money and soldiers and since the federal goverment couldnt enforce itnothing got accomplished and the South crumbled. If they had a communist government and Jackson would have just ordered everybody to get thier shyt straight the South might have won. So there's your communism for you A/H!

You also attempt to call me a Biggot and you seem to not know what that meens.
A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.
Like I stated before, I guess im just a stereo type, not proud, but it's my instincts telling me so.

Now I dont feel like ive come off as a prejudice person. Nor am I intolerant of anyones opinions etc. I dont have a problem with one because of there race or creed. It's easy to resort to name calling and atempting to sound . smart. But you fail
No, you fail...no I fail too, im from Texas which = south which = fail.

Also the CSS Hunely was the first to sink a ship wich was completly accidental. And they didnt event the submarine. :eek:
Who cares if it was accidental, it still served its purpose. I didnt say they did, I said sorta, asin itwas actually put one into the water and make a ship sink. Like Ford, they didnt invent the car, they just put one into production, allowing the rest to follow.

this thread really made me think...i used to like the confederate flag...i called it my johnny reb flag and used it as a symbol of my never ending rebellion against authority (my boss loves me) but some of you are right...i guess it is in all fairness the symbol of a country the united states went to waragainst and patriotic united states servicemen gave their lives fighting against ... i would dishonor those soldiers who came before me by continuing to fly it...

i guess it is in all fairness the symbol of a country the united states went to war against and patriotic united states servicemen gave their lives fighting against ... i would dishonor those soldiers who came before me by continuing to fly it...


It's all in interpretation.

You could argue against this by saying that the 'south never really suceeded from the Union. It was only an attempt.'

It's a fine line.

I would continue this argument by saying that 90% of the people who fly the Confederate Flag agree that it IS indeed BETTER and for the best that the Union won the Civil War. Only the few and far between will even try to argue that the Confederate States could have successfully ran a governement of their own, while at the same time not come crashing down in an unrivaled dibacle.

Heritage or hate?

Both... you have your answer.

ORIGINAL: klfutrelle

Heritage or hate?

Both... you have your answer.





/trhead

i live in ga[8D] and people from all walks of life, fly and wear the flag(I don't ) even a lot of black people. they had relatives that fought and died in the war just like everyone else. most people who have a problem with it are not from the south and are usually from a more liberal state.

ORIGINAL: rmodel65

most people who have a problem with it are not from the south
no way....really?? lol

well in the south it is largely a non issue, no one cares

The fact is... the confederacy broke apart from our country and were set on destroying the north. Where is the "United" in that? They were a rebel force, killing fellow Americans. I dont see anything in that worth being proud about. Personally, if i had a family member who fought for the confederacy I wouldn't want to flaunt it...

The difference between the nazi's and the confederacy, is that the nazi's actually took control of germany whereas the confederacy did not. The swatsitica was used to represent the new germany, where the confederate flag was used to represent the south.

Sure, the confederacy was not focused on destroying (only enslaving) millions of lives like the nazi party was, but they were intent on destroying and overthrowing the current government. I.E. Rebels. Do we celebrate traitors? No. Why would we celebrate rebels?

ORIGINAL: 72MachOne99GT

You could argue against this by saying that the 'south never really suceeded from the Union. It was only an attempt.'



Yeah, but that just makes the CSA a group of criminals who still killed thousands and thousands and thousands of American soldiers who fought under the American flag, and tried to destroy the United States of America.

As a historical symbol the battle flag is important. As a modern day symbol... eh. And it definately shouldn't be part of a state symbol; if a state flies a flag with part of the old stars and bars in it, they should be made to change it... as I said before, it is a symbol of rebellion and fighting against the US. A state is now a part of that self-same government, so it seems silly to have it.

Most people would agree, as you said, that it is a real good thing the US won. Can you imagine if there still was a CSA? That would be so, so bizarre. Would the two countries be allies? How would WWII have worked? Would the CSA have not gotten involved because Hawaii belonged to the USA? Heck, would the CSA have expanded west and grabbed Cali and the rest? How about illegal immigration from Mexico; how split would it be?

An interesting topic for a book or paper, for sure.

Im going to have to 100% agree with lord assram on this one ;)

ORIGINAL: Lord Ashram

And it definately shouldn't be part of a state symbol; if a state flies a flag with part of the old stars and bars in it, they should be made to change it...



They have tried, but it seems history is more important to people than being PC. Back in 2001 they voted to see who wanted to change the flag and only about 30% of the state voted to change it. Funny thing is, almost 40% of the state is black.

http://67.43.167.50/92627/allstateflags10/images/dbimages/us-ms.gif

the confederacy going against the union is nothing different than america going against brittain in the revolutionary war.. saying the south was so bad for fighting for what they believed in is retarded.. sure they killed fellow americans but we killed our fellow men during the revolutionary war.. just the south lost this one

short and broad arguement but i'm short on time right now

ill be a dick and say it... hate[8D]

ORIGINAL: 03_gt_woowee

the confederacy going against the union is nothing different than america going against brittain in the revolutionary war.. yeah but nobody is flying a british flag

ORIGINAL: 2k1gt

They have tried, but it seems history is more important to people than being PC. Back in 2001 they voted to see who wanted to change the flag and only about 30% of the state voted to change it. Funny thing is, almost 40% of the state is black.



PC? Hm, I was unaware that not flying the flag of a force that was trying to destroy our country and slaughtered thousands and thousands of American soldiers was simply being PC. Man, and here I was hating Osama Bin Laden for killing only a few thousand Americans! Damn, I am SO PC.

ORIGINAL: nghtrnnr

ORIGINAL: 03_gt_woowee

the confederacy going against the union is nothing different than america going against brittain in the revolutionary war.. yeah but nobody is flying a british flag



Actually youve must of never gone to a revolutionary war park. The Brittish flag is flown right beside the American flag out of respect for those that died on both sides. And the same can be said about the Confederate flag at any civil war park. (EX: Gettysburg etc.)

ORIGINAL: Lord Ashram

ORIGINAL: 2k1gt

They have tried, but it seems history is more important to people than being PC. Back in 2001 they voted to see who wanted to change the flag and only about 30% of the state voted to change it. Funny thing is, almost 40% of the state is black.



PC? Hm, I was unaware that not flying the flag of a force that was trying to destroy our country and slaughtered thousands and thousands of American soldiers was simply being PC. Man, and here I was hating Osama Bin Laden for killing only a few thousand Americans! Damn, I am SO PC.



Well, this is totally different. You gota remember the civil war was brother vs brother. Both sides were Americans the south was mainly fighting for there homes and property. They viewed the North as invading agressors. Americans died on both sides north and south they just supported different ideals.

ORIGINAL: nghtrnnr

ORIGINAL: 03_gt_woowee

the confederacy going against the union is nothing different than america going against brittain in the revolutionary war.. yeah but nobody is flying a british flag




bs i have a neighbor who does;)

ORIGINAL: Lord Ashram

ORIGINAL: 2k1gt

They have tried, but it seems history is more important to people than being PC. Back in 2001 they voted to see who wanted to change the flag and only about 30% of the state voted to change it. Funny thing is, almost 40% of the state is black.



PC? Hm, I was unaware that not flying the flag of a force that was trying to destroy our country and slaughtered thousands and thousands of American soldiers was simply being PC. Man, and here I was hating Osama Bin Laden for killing only a few thousand Americans! Damn, I am SO PC.



You cant say that we (the south) slaughtered americans. The north was fighting agaisnt us for their own beliefs we where just defending our land and our territory. Believe it or not we (the south) are american citizens too. so the north slaughtered thousands and thousands of American Solders too. you cant blame us for defending ourselves.

I think it is a part of history, but its not a good part of history.I dont think it should be erased from history. I thinkit should still be shown in museums to showwhat it looked like, but I think since it does have so many different meanings, and offends many people, it shouldnt be flown. I think a person can find another way to have a little bit of history if they feel it is a part of who they are. I personally have a couple of confederate states of america dollars. it is money that belonged to some of my relatives. Those pieces of money dont hurt anyone, and nobody is offended by them because they are mine, and are locked in the safe. I think its kinda of silly to say that you are flying the confederate flag for heritage reasons or to honor your fallen relatives. Come on.....those people died a very long time ago, and I am sure there have been innumerableother relatives that have died since then. What do you carry to symbolize the rest of them? I guess I typed all of this to say that i dont think it right to fly it because it offends, and why should we want to offend anyone when we can justknowthehistory without hurting anyone.

ORIGINAL: apexmustang
You cant say that we (the south) slaughtered americans. The north was fighting agaisnt us for their own beliefs we where just defending our land and our territory. Believe it or not we (the south) are american citizens too. so the north slaughtered thousands and thousands of American Solders too. you cant blame us for defending ourselves.


Uh, yes I can say that. The South slaughtered Americans. Southern soldiers shot dead thousands and thousands of American soldiers, men whose regiments still exist and serve in the United States military today, and men who fought under the American flag. How can you possibly deny that?

"The North," as you put it, was THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. The USA.

People who live in the southern states are american citizens today, sure, but back then... not so much. They left the union, remember?

The United States did not slaughter thousands and thousands of American soldiers. The US slaughtered thousands and thousands of soldiers of the Confederate States of America. USA and CSA are two different things

As for blaming the South for defending itself, no of course I don't blame them. When you are attacked, you defend yourself. However, that doesn't change any of the above facts.

Wierd double post, sorry.

i fly my conferderate flag cuz its real prutty and all... hahaha

ORIGINAL: Lord Ashram

ORIGINAL: apexmustang
You cant say that we (the south) slaughtered americans. The north was fighting agaisnt us for their own beliefs we where just defending our land and our territory. Believe it or not we (the south) are american citizens too. so the north slaughtered thousands and thousands of American Solders too. you cant blame us for defending ourselves.


Uh, yes I can say that. The South slaughtered Americans. Southern soldiers shot dead thousands and thousands of American soldiers, men whose regiments still exist and serve in the United States military today, and men who fought under the American flag. How can you possibly deny that?

"The North," as you put it, was THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. The USA.

People who live in the southern states are american citizens today, sure, but back then... not so much. They left the union, remember?

As for blaming the South for defending itself, no of course I don't blame them. When you are attacked, you defend yourself. However, that doesn't change any of the above facts.


There would be no USA if it wasnt for the southern states. They were the back bone of the revolution. Now with that said it could also be argued if the civil war didnt happen slavery would of lasted longer in the south and maybe even more abroad. (but eventually died out with the invent of the cotton gin etc.) I find it odd when people want to make it sound like the confederate flag is the root of all evil but in all reality you could view the United States flag in the same light. Why did slavery continue for long after it was stated that "all men are created equal"?

because the words were written on white paper
































































[8D]j/k

ORIGINAL: Redneck97


There would be no USA if it wasnt for the southern states. They were the back bone of the revolution.




lmao

ORIGINAL: Joolander

hmmmm

well let me answer your question with another question:

is a swastika considered german heritage?



True. Because swastika was enherited from Egyptians. As far as confederate flag goes its really all about how people are educated about certain things. Different people will interpret it differently.

those calling the south traitors.is wrong they fought for what they believed in.the war had to do with $$$$$$$$$ the north had the industry the south had the product.the north sold for alot and payed the south a little...politics is money, money is politics...you be proud in how you are and where you come from and where you are going...nothing else matters!!the war had nothing to do w/ slavery,slavery was just a by-factor...why do you think even blacks fought...they could have ran just as easy...they were given weapons!!!but they chose to fight for the south...if G. Wasington lost the war he would have been hung as a traitor...every war has a loser,and the loser always get bad-mouthed.look at hitler, he was on the cover of time mag. as man of the year in 1932.know look at whatwe say about him.right or wrong we feed off of money!!!!!!!thats it.the why's are not important,just the out come...our constitution was set up for a free life and by the us cons. if we as people feel just cause to draw arms against the gov. we can.foolish, but we can.it is the people that slander other people for what they believe and are proud of,the people that are breaking the us cons. admens.so who gives a **** what other people think or are proud of ...worry about yourself .and find out what you believe to be true in your own heart and be proud of that so you can be happy...let everyone else live in ignorance...i as an Odinist does not get offended by someone wearing a christian cross even though they slaughter my people into christianity...**** happens.get over it its just a flag no matter why its being hung...does the flag hurt you...give you nightmares...i dont think so...so whats the big deal???
what i'm tripping on is that theres a camaro on this furom..lol

Woof.

Okay, a few points:

First off no, the south was NOT the backbone of the Revolution. The vast majority of the major battles took place in the northern states, and the main core of soldiers were from the northern states. The last few years moved down to the South because the English knew the southern states were more Loyalist than the northern states, in fact, and the Continental army and French had to follow them there. I know my AWI history, and you are straight up wrong.

No one has said the confederate battle flag is the root of all evil. What many have said is that it is the battle flag (and yes, it is a BATTLE FLAG. The first and second and third national flags of the CSA are not what you think of when you say "Confederate flag...") of a force that was dedicated to the destruction of the United States. You all can argue that all you want, but you are wrong.

I think the problem here is that most people can't separatethe idea of having pride in this particular symbol of defiance and rebelliousness from necessarily agreeing with all of its darker connotations. (We're not nearly distant enough from WWII to make any similar statement about that other symbol - and given that that mess was global in scale and orders of magnitude worse we, as in humanity, may never get there.)

Somehow I suspect that most people look at the "General Lee's" roof mural in the favorable light of legitimate disobedience. I certainly don't think it cost whatever TV network very many viewers, either back when the show first aired or now.

Truth be told, I'm a born and bred New Englander, and I'm not separated from the Civil War by quite as many generations as are most folks posting here (my grandparents were all born in the late 1800's, and I was fortunate enough to have had two great-grandparents still alive as I was growing up). But I find that I prefer some of the more conservative Southern ways. And I think I understand what fastbackford and redneck are trying to say.


Norm