I posted about the Steeda Watt's link protypes in testing 3 months ago. So far nobody has done even back to back test of the much older less adjustable Saleen PJ Edition's Watt's link on a car yet. I've driven a couple of PJ's and have installed the Saleen PJ watt's link and the differences are not trivial in terms of handling. The car acts MUCH better both under power and off. Also while the car does not exactly "ride" any better there is some sort of a change in the car's dynamic ride quality or feel that I cannot put my finger on. It's weird to say but there is something going on back there I don't fully understand about the ride. The Saleen PJ Watt's link was so much of an improvement that I had to eat my words (and for those of you who read any of my suspension posts you know that's rarely the case) and go out and buy one for my own car! Yes, it's a lot of money but it for a handling junkie well worth the money, it makes that big an improvement if you have the rest of the suspension to take advantage of it.
In looking at the Steeda Watt's link design the centerlink mounting and the folded sheet metal axle mounts I'd guess that Steeda's design (if they stick to their usual 4130 chrome-moly alloy steel fabrication) will be significantly lighter and stiffer than the Fayes 2 Watt's link. The Steeda Watt's link is also technically better due to the completely parallel link arms (adjustable) and vertical center link which offers a small but important advantage in handling feel due to improved linkage geometry and axle motion. The axle tube link mounts should probably be a weld-in design though for street use Steeda could offer a clamp on installation. Personally I don't like clamping on the axle tubes due to the potential for issues caused by using clamps on the 8.8's lightweight axle tubes but for street use it maybe O.K.
HTH!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
ORIGINAL: sonnier It looks a lot like the Fay's 2. I wonder what it will cost.
Hi sonnier,
The Steeda Watt's link is similar but very different. This is a Steeda engineered and fabricated suspension component, get serious it's going to cost a LOT, more than any previous design. But that said the Steeda design looks to be the best Watt's link design so far. But I'm pretty happy with the Saleen PJ Watt's link for now and once I get the new adjustable link arms designed and pop the car up and install them I'll be a happy man.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
Thanks for the input F1Fan. I have a feeling as well that it will also cost more just like most Steeda stuff does. That said, I do trust Steeda more than others and it's what I prefer to put on my car. Their products always seem to fit right and are well engineered and it's worth the money to me at least. I have more Steeda parts on my car than my sig says(guess I should update that) and they work well on the track for me. I've been debating on whether to just upgrade my PHB or go with a Watts link but at least for now I'm going to see what more will come out.
< Message edited by sonnier -- 5/5/2008 7:59:34 AM >
ORIGINAL: sonnier Thanks for the input F1Fan. I have a feeling as well that it will also cost more just like most Steeda stuff does. That said, I do trust Steeda more than others and it's what I prefer to put on my car. Their products always seem to fit right and are well engineered and it's worth the money to me at least. I have more Steeda parts on my car than my sig says(guess I should update that) and they work well on the track for me. I've been debating on whether to just upgrade my PHB or go with a Watts link but at least for now I'm going to see what more will come out.
Hi sonnier,
You are welcome. I too think the Steeda Watt's link will be priced higher than the previous Watt's link offerings form Saleen and Fayes2 but for good reason. I too have an awful lot of Steeda suspension parts on my car but not because I wanted to use parts from a single suspension parts maker. I looked at what was being offered to the S197 market then compared my own thinking about what I wanted out of my new S197GT's suspension and what I thought the S197 chassis needed to get there. My opinions are based on 35+ years experience as a German sports and GT car guy, sometime engine management and suspension consultant and restorer of two vintage Mustangs who has been a Mulholland Drive/Highway regular for over 35 years from cafe bikes to running race cars at night when nobody was looking and even getting arrested doing 150mph on said road one day. What I found was Steeda was doing pretty much what I would do to address these chassis issues in much the same way I would address these issues. The stock chassis was compromised for John Q. public and Auntie M. not a track and canyon crazy car guy coming over from a serious 35 year addiction to German sports and GT hardware.
If you have a ride issue with the car and you are still on the stock dampers fix that first. Tokico's D-Spec dampers will give you a better ride and more handling and ride bang for the buck than the Koni Sport dampers. You will be favorably impressed with the improved rear axle behavior over the stutter type bumps like 2 or 3 sets of rail road tracks or minor bumps mid-corner. But if you are a hardcore track guy which it seems you're not, the Koni Sports may offer a slight advantage on the track but that potential slight advantage is paid for wth a slight ride and comfort disadvantage the other 99% of the time you are driving on the street.
I have to repeat this, you will never get the S197's live axle to behave like an IRS (independent rear suspension) car over any sort of road irregularities this is just a fact of life. The nature of all live axles lies in their significantly higher unspring weight and 100% coupling between the left and right sides of the axle. These are inescapable design issues with a live axle rear end. Even if you could reduce the weight of the unsprung masses to the same level as a good IRS and somehow magically retain 100% of the strength and reliability of the live axle you would still have that 100% couple between the left and right sides of the axle which is most of the problem with bumpy or minor surface irregularities. Soft bushings and springs can help obscure these issues if the damper's dampening curves are well thought out which we all know is not the case with the stock dampers.
I you have to worry over the price of a Watt's link just install Steeda'a nice Street Adjustable Panhard bar and the matching HD PB brace and try them out. The difference between a properly installed stiff adjustable Panhard bar with poly bushings and the stock Panhard bar is very noticable. It will let you feel a lot more of what is going on with the rear axle and control it much better also. But by the same token you will feel the rear axle skittering more over irregular surfaces even though it's still only skittering the same amount. This is the improved handling feel.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
ORIGINAL: sonnier Thanks for the input F1Fan. I have a feeling as well that it will also cost more just like most Steeda stuff does. That said, I do trust Steeda more than others and it's what I prefer to put on my car. Their products always seem to fit right and are well engineered and it's worth the money to me at least. I have more Steeda parts on my car than my sig says(guess I should update that) and they work well on the track for me. I've been debating on whether to just upgrade my PHB or go with a Watts link but at least for now I'm going to see what more will come out.
Hi sonnier,
You are welcome. I too think the Steeda Watt's link will be priced higher than the previous Watt's link offerings form Saleen and Fayes2 but for good reason. I too have an awful lot of Steeda suspension parts on my car but not because I wanted to use parts from a single suspension parts maker. I looked at what was being offered to the S197 market then compared my own thinking about what I wanted out of my new S197GT's suspension and what I thought the S197 chassis needed to get there. My opinions are based on 35+ years experience as a German sports and GT car guy, sometime engine management and suspension consultant and restorer of two vintage Mustangs who has been a Mulholland Drive/Highway regular for over 35 years from cafe bikes to running race cars at night when nobody was looking and even getting arrested doing 150mph on said road one day. What I found was Steeda was doing pretty much what I would do to address these chassis issues in much the same way I would address these issues. The stock chassis was compromised for John Q. public and Auntie M. not a track and canyon crazy car guy coming over from a serious 35 year addiction to German sports and GT hardware.
If you have a ride issue with the car and you are still on the stock dampers fix that first. Tokico's D-Spec dampers will give you a better ride and more handling and ride bang for the buck than the Koni Sport dampers. You will be favorably impressed with the improved rear axle behavior over the stutter type bumps like 2 or 3 sets of rail road tracks or minor bumps mid-corner. But if you are a hardcore track guy which it seems you're not, the Koni Sports may offer a slight advantage on the track but that potential slight advantage is paid for wth a slight ride and comfort disadvantage the other 99% of the time you are driving on the street.
I have to repeat this, you will never get the S197's live axle to behave like an IRS (independent rear suspension) car over any sort of road irregularities this is just a fact of life. The nature of all live axles lies in their significantly higher unspring weight and 100% coupling between the left and right sides of the axle. These are inescapable design issues with a live axle rear end. Even if you could reduce the weight of the unsprung masses to the same level as a good IRS and somehow magically retain 100% of the strength and reliability of the live axle you would still have that 100% couple between the left and right sides of the axle which is most of the problem with bumpy or minor surface irregularities. Soft bushings and springs can help obscure these issues if the damper's dampening curves are well thought out which we all know is not the case with the stock dampers.
I you have to worry over the price of a Watt's link just install Steeda'a nice Street Adjustable Panhard bar and the matching HD PB brace and try them out. The difference between a properly installed stiff adjustable Panhard bar with poly bushings and the stock Panhard bar is very noticable. It will let you feel a lot more of what is going on with the rear axle and control it much better also. But by the same token you will feel the rear axle skittering more over irregular surfaces even though it's still only skittering the same amount. This is the improved handling feel.
HTH!
I already installed Konis. It's what I have trusted on past cars, mostly German and one Japanese. It also doesn't hurt that I get jobber pricing on Konis. So far, that has made the biggest difference along with wheels/tires. I do about 4-5 HPDEs a year so really a Watts link is way more than I need, my money is still better spent on weekends at the track rather than more parts as I don't believe I've reached the full potential of this car as is.
I like a lot of the Griggs suspension parts, they are nice lightweight race parts. But being true race parts they are very poorly suited for street duty and require lots of regular inspections and maintenance that most street cars will never get. Griggs parts are also hard to get service parts replacements for when they fail which they do regularly and they are also not designed with any thought to the real world street use. So Griggs uses rod ends for everything which is not at all good for NVH (noise vibration and harshness) but good for eliminating compliance and precise handling.
O.K. what do I think about the Griggs Watt's link? Hmm, first off the Griggs Watt's link price is deceiving because to make it work you also need to purchase a specially modified Griggs TA diff cover which brings the total to about $1050. As usual for a racing piece the Griggs Watt's link uses no isolation at all in the Watt's link with rod-ends and fixed bearings through out the design so it will be noisy, harsh and transmit every vibration, bearing noise and diff gear whine into the car's cabin for you to deal with. The Griggs Watt's link places the center link on the diff cover which is not the ideal location as this means the rear axle roll center moves up and down with the axle not with the car as would be ideal. That said I'm not certain this is a large disadvantage as I driven identical cars with the pivot fixed on both the diff and on the more conventional location the chassis and can't complain about it one way or the other. The center pivot of the Watt's link is short which I suppose was necessary to allow for adjustable roll center on the diff which may not be ideal but seems to make little difference with the limited suspension travel a race car normally has. The Griggs Watt's link arms are not parallel nor is there a provision to adjust them this way which is not as good handling as a Watt's link with parallel arms and vertical center pivot link. But these are all largely small distinctions.
IMO the best Watt's link design for a street or race car is the new Steeda piece given what I know and what I've seen of the design. You also get a company that will stand behind it and support it if and when it need parts down the road. The Saleen Watt's link is a simple design that foregoes an adjustable roll center height for production car use and to allow the part to work well for a long time with minimal maintainence. Saleen is also pretty good about supporting their cars.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
You can keep it. Torque arms are hard to set pinion angle on, good strong torque arms are very heavy, torque arms kill your ground clearance, torque arms have less anti-squat which means they understeer more on corner exit. No thanks,torque arms are old, 3-link with Watt's link is better IMO.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
Thanks man! We can always count on you for the straight shot on things. Side note : I talked to Steeda yesterday and they said availability would be in about 10 days and price would be in the $500 range. If that's true I know what I'll be spending money on during the off season.
Wow.. Only $500? I might pick one of those up too.. I don't auto-X or anything, but I'm a handling junkie (last car was a 1997 Grand Prix - Eibach, Koni, etc etc - widetrak's handled well to begin with), and the straight-line-only aspect of this car kind of bothers me. I was considering the Fays2 Watts link, but like F1Fan said, this Steeda unit looks great, and for $500, it's well within to correct price range to make it competitive..
Thanks man! We can always count on you for the straight shot on things. Side note : I talked to Steeda yesterday and they said availability would be in about 10 days and price would be in the $500 range. If that's true I know what I'll be spending money on during the off season.
Hi Kobie,
Thanks, I always try to be honest and to share the information I get back from folks I have contact with about suspension.
WOW! Only $500? No freaking way, that sounds WAY to low for a Steeda Watt's link! Incredible deal if the price turns out to be true as the Steeda Watt's link is really a good design made to appeal to street car owners. The addition of the reasonably but not overly isolated links was a stroke of genius. Can't hardly wait to hear the official price and have Steeda start shipping them out so I can install one in somebody's S197GT and test it against the Saleen PJ Watt's link in my car.
Amazing news, thanks!
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
This months issue of muscle mustangs & fast fords has an article on saleen's watts link.They didn't quote a price on though so I figure it'd be pretty pricey but, it is something to think about.
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BLACK 2008 PREMIUM GT; INTERIOR UPGRADE PKG MODS(so far);DiabloSport Predator 3.73:1 GEARS ROUSH SHORT THROW SHIFTER SIDE WINDOW LOUVERS S&B INTAKE INTAKE MANIFOLD COVER 18x9" POLISHED BULLITT WHEELS GT500 STYLE SIDE SCOOPS
so basically, teh watts link, and required accompaniments (like a differential cover) replace teh PHB and brace, right? sway bar, and UCA/LCA needs are unchanged for a trackable, daily driver set up. right? and obviously springs dampners needed still thx doc
so basically, teh watts link, and required accompaniments (like a differential cover) replace teh PHB and brace, right? sway bar, and UCA/LCA needs are unchanged for a trackable, daily driver set up. right? and obviously springs dampners needed still thx doc
Yep! panhard bar & brace replacement. LCAs/UCAs still do the same job, to the same effect.
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NEW Steeda Watts Link - 
