Looks like there's a new player in town!
I'd like to see a really good, real world test on one of these.

http://www.steeda.com/news/steeda_news/04-30-08_steeda_watts_linkage.php

looks good! hopefully it isn't too expensive...

It looks a lot like the Fay's 2. I wonder what it will cost.

ORIGINAL: Kobie
Looks like there's a new player in town!
I'd like to see a really good, real world test on one of these.
http://www.steeda.com/news/steeda_news/04-30-08_steeda_watts_linkage.php


Hi Kobie,

I posted about the Steeda Watt's link protypes in testing3months ago. So far nobody has done even back to back test of the much olderless adjustableSaleen PJ Edition's Watt's link on a car yet. I've driven a couple of PJ's and have installed the Saleen PJ watt's link and the differences are not trivial in terms of handling. The car acts MUCH better both under power and off.Also while the car does not exactly"ride" any better there is some sort of a change in the car'sdynamic ridequality or feel that I cannot put my finger on. It's weird to say but there is something going on back there I don't fully understand about the ride. The Saleen PJ Watt's link was so much of an improvement that I had to eat my words(and for those of you who read any ofmy suspensionposts you know that's rarely the case)and go out and buy one for my own car! Yes, it's a lot of money but it for a handling junkie well worththe money,it makesthat big an improvement if you have therest of the suspensionto take advantage of it.

In looking at theSteedaWatt's link designthecenterlink mounting and the folded sheet metal axle mounts I'd guess that Steeda's design(if they stick to their usual 4130 chrome-moly alloy steel fabrication)will be significantly lighter and stiffer than the Fayes 2 Watt's link. The Steeda Watt's link is also technically better due to the completely parallel link arms (adjustable)and vertical center link which offers a small but important advantage in handling feel dueto improved linkage geometry and axle motion. The axle tube link mountsshould probablybe aweld-in designthough for street use Steeda could offera clamp on installation. PersonallyI don'tlike clamping on the axle tubes due to thepotential for issues caused by usingclamps on the 8.8's lightweight axle tubes but for street use itmaybe O.K.


HTH!

ORIGINAL: sonnier
It looks a lot like the Fay's 2. I wonder what it will cost.


Hi sonnier,

The Steeda Watt's link is similar but very different. This is a Steeda engineered and fabricated suspension component, get serious it's going to cost a LOT, more than any previous design. But that said the Steeda design looks to be the best Watt's link design so far. But I'm pretty happy with the Saleen PJ Watt's link for now and once I get the new adjustable link arms designed and pop the car up and install them I'll be a happy man.

HTH!

Thanks for the input F1Fan. I have a feeling as well that it will also cost more just like most Steeda stuff does. That said, I do trust Steeda more than others and it's what I prefer to put on my car. Their products always seem to fit right and are well engineered and it's worth the money to me at least. I have more Steeda parts on my car than my sig says(guess I should update that) and they work well on the track for me. I've been debating on whether to just upgrade my PHB or go with a Watts link but at least for now I'm going to see what more will come out.

Anybody have a ballpark figure in mind for pricing? Thousands?

ORIGINAL: sonnier
Thanks for the input F1Fan. I have a feeling as well that it will also cost more just like most Steeda stuff does. That said, I do trust Steeda more than others and it's what I prefer to put on my car. Their products always seem to fit right and are well engineered and it's worth the money to me at least. I have more Steeda parts on my car than my sig says(guess I should update that) and they work well on the track for me. I've been debating on whether to just upgrade my PHB or go with a Watts link but at least for now I'm going to see what more will come out.


Hi sonnier,

You are welcome. I toothinkthe Steeda Watt's link will be priced higher than the previous Watt's link offerings form Saleen and Fayes2 but for good reason. I too have an awful lot of Steeda suspension parts on my car but not because I wanted to use parts from a singlesuspension parts maker.I looked at whatwas being offered to the S197 market thencompared my own thinking about what I wanted out of my new S197GT's suspension and what I thoughtthe S197 chassis needed to get there. My opinions arebasedon 35+ years experience as a Germansports and GTcar guy, sometime engine management andsuspension consultant and restorer of two vintage Mustangs who has been a Mulholland Drive/Highway regular for over 35 years from cafe bikes to running race cars at night when nobody was looking and even getting arrested doing 150mph on said road one day. What I found was Steeda was doing pretty much what I would do to addressthese chassis issuesin much the sameway I would address these issues. The stock chassiswas compromised for John Q. public and Auntie M. not a track and canyon crazy carguy coming over fromaserious 35 year addiction to German sports and GT hardware.

If you have a ride issue with the carand you are still on the stockdampers fix that first.Tokico's D-Spec dampers will give you a better rideandmore handling and ride bang for the buck than theKoni Sport dampers. You will be favorably impressed with the improved rear axle behavior over the stutter type bumps like 2 or 3 sets of rail road tracks or minor bumps mid-corner. But if you are ahardcore trackguy whichit seems you're not, the Koni Sports may offer a slight advantage on the track but that potential slight advantage is paid forwth a slight ride and comfort disadvantagethe other 99% of the time you are drivingon the street.

I have to repeat this, you will never get the S197's live axle to behavelike an IRS (independent rear suspension) car over any sort of road irregularities this is just a fact of life. The nature ofall live axles lies in their significantly higher unspring weight and100% coupling between the left and right sides of the axle. These are inescapable design issues witha live axle rear end. Even if you could reduce the weight of the unsprung masses to the same level as a good IRSand somehow magically retain 100% of the strength and reliability of the live axle you would still have that 100% couple between the left and right sides of the axle which is most of the problem with bumpy or minor surface irregularities.Soft bushings and springs can help obscure these issues if the damper's dampening curves are well thought out which we all know is not the case with the stock dampers.

I you have to worry overthe price of a Watt's link just installSteeda'a niceStreet Adjustable Panhard bar and the matching HD PB brace and try them out. The difference between a properly installed stiffadjustable Panhard bar with poly bushings and the stock Panhard bar is very noticable. It willlet you feel a lot more of what is going on with the rear axle and control it much better also. But by the same token you will feel the rear axleskittering more over irregular surfaceseven though it's still only skittering the same amount. This is the improved handling feel.

HTH!

F1,

I'm curious to hear what you think about the design of the Griggs Racing Watts Link.
http://www.griggsracing.com/index.php?cPath=4332_4309_4328_2040_3680&osCsid=1f 48163616cb9ef0fe14b6967028e7d5
Someone on another board comented that this was the best design out there. The price seems to be pretty good.
Just collecting opinions!!

How about the Torque Arm??
http://www.griggsracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=4332_4309_4328_2040_3675&pr oducts_id=571&osCsid=1f48163616cb9ef0fe14b6967028e 7d5

ORIGINAL: F1Fan

ORIGINAL: sonnier
Thanks for the input F1Fan. I have a feeling as well that it will also cost more just like most Steeda stuff does. That said, I do trust Steeda more than others and it's what I prefer to put on my car. Their products always seem to fit right and are well engineered and it's worth the money to me at least. I have more Steeda parts on my car than my sig says(guess I should update that) and they work well on the track for me. I've been debating on whether to just upgrade my PHB or go with a Watts link but at least for now I'm going to see what more will come out.


Hi sonnier,

You are welcome. I toothinkthe Steeda Watt's link will be priced higher than the previous Watt's link offerings form Saleen and Fayes2 but for good reason. I too have an awful lot of Steeda suspension parts on my car but not because I wanted to use parts from a singlesuspension parts maker.I looked at whatwas being offered to the S197 market thencompared my own thinking about what I wanted out of my new S197GT's suspension and what I thoughtthe S197 chassis needed to get there. My opinions arebasedon 35+ years experience as a Germansports and GTcar guy, sometime engine management andsuspension consultant and restorer of two vintage Mustangs who has been a Mulholland Drive/Highway regular for over 35 years from cafe bikes to running race cars at night when nobody was looking and even getting arrested doing 150mph on said road one day. What I found was Steeda was doing pretty much what I would do to addressthese chassis issuesin much the sameway I would address these issues. The stock chassiswas compromised for John Q. public and Auntie M. not a track and canyon crazy carguy coming over fromaserious 35 year addiction to German sports and GT hardware.

If you have a ride issue with the carand you are still on the stockdampers fix that first.Tokico's D-Spec dampers will give you a better rideandmore handling and ride bang for the buck than theKoni Sport dampers. You will be favorably impressed with the improved rear axle behavior over the stutter type bumps like 2 or 3 sets of rail road tracks or minor bumps mid-corner. But if you are ahardcore trackguy whichit seems you're not, the Koni Sports may offer a slight advantage on the track but that potential slight advantage is paid forwth a slight ride and comfort disadvantagethe other 99% of the time you are drivingon the street.

I have to repeat this, you will never get the S197's live axle to behavelike an IRS (independent rear suspension) car over any sort of road irregularities this is just a fact of life. The nature ofall live axles lies in their significantly higher unspring weight and100% coupling between the left and right sides of the axle. These are inescapable design issues witha live axle rear end. Even if you could reduce the weight of the unsprung masses to the same level as a good IRSand somehow magically retain 100% of the strength and reliability of the live axle you would still have that 100% couple between the left and right sides of the axle which is most of the problem with bumpy or minor surface irregularities.Soft bushings and springs can help obscure these issues if the damper's dampening curves are well thought out which we all know is not the case with the stock dampers.

I you have to worry overthe price of a Watt's link just installSteeda'a niceStreet Adjustable Panhard bar and the matching HD PB brace and try them out. The difference between a properly installed stiffadjustable Panhard bar with poly bushings and the stock Panhard bar is very noticable. It willlet you feel a lot more of what is going on with the rear axle and control it much better also. But by the same token you will feel the rear axleskittering more over irregular surfaceseven though it's still only skittering the same amount. This is the improved handling feel.

HTH!



I already installed Konis. It's what I have trusted on past cars, mostly German and one Japanese. It also doesn't hurt that I get jobber pricing on Konis. So far, that has made the biggest difference along with wheels/tires. I do about 4-5 HPDEs a year so really a Watts link is way more than I need, my money is still better spent on weekends at the track rather than more parts as I don't believe I've reached the full potential of this car as is.

ORIGINAL: Kobie
F1,

I'm curious to hear what you think about the design of the Griggs Racing Watts Link.
http://www.griggsracing.com/index.php?cPath=4332_4309_4328_2040_3680&osCsid=1f 48163616cb9ef0fe14b6967028e7d5
Someone on another board comented that this was the best design out there. The price seems to be pretty good.
Just collecting opinions!!


Hi Kobie,

I like a lot of the Griggs suspension parts, they are nice lightweight race parts. But being true race parts they are very poorly suited for street duty andrequire lots of regular inspections and maintenance that most street cars will never get. Griggs parts are also hard to getservice parts replacements for when they fail which they do regularlyand they are also not designed with any thought to the real world street use. SoGriggs uses rod ends for everythingwhich is not at all good for NVH (noise vibration and harshness) but good foreliminating compliance andprecise handling.

O.K. what do I think about the Griggs Watt's link?Hmm, first off theGriggs Watt's link price is deceiving because to make it work you alsoneed topurchase a specially modified Griggs TA diff cover which brings the total to about $1050. As usual for a racing piece the Griggs Watt's link uses no isolation at all in the Watt's link with rod-ends and fixed bearings through out the design so it will be noisy, harsh and transmit every vibration, bearing noise and diff gear whine into the car's cabin for you to deal with. The Griggs Watt's link places the center link on the diff cover which is not the ideal location as this means the rear axle roll center moves up and down with the axle not with the car as would be ideal. That said I'm not certain this is alarge disadvantage as I driven identical cars with the pivotfixed on both the diff and on the more conventional location the chassis and can't complain about it one way or the other.The center pivot of the Watt's link is short which I supposewas necessary to allowfor adjustable roll center on the diff which may not be ideal but seems to make little difference with the limited suspension travel a race car normally has. TheGriggs Watt's link arms are not parallel nor is there a provision to adjust them this way which is not as good handling as a Watt's link with parallel arms and verticalcenter pivot link. But these are all largelysmall distinctions.

IMO the best Watt's linkdesign for a street or race car isthe newSteeda piecegiven what I know and what I've seen of the design.You also get a company that will stand behind it and support it if and when it need parts down the road. The Saleen Watt's link is a simple design that foregoes an adjustableroll center height forproduction car useand to allow the part to work well for a long time with minimal maintainence. Saleen is also pretty good about supporting their cars.

HTH!

ORIGINAL: Kobie
How about the Torque Arm??
http://www.griggsracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=4332_4309_4328_2040_3675&pr oducts_id=571&osCsid=1f48163616cb9ef0fe14b6967028e 7d5


Hi Kobie,

You can keep it. Torque arms are hard to set pinion angle on, good strong torque arms are very heavy, torque arms kill your ground clearance, torque arms have less anti-squat which means they understeer more on corner exit. No thanks,torque arms are old, 3-link with Watt's link is better IMO.

HTH!

F1,

Thanks man! We can always count on you for the straight shot on things.
Side note : I talked to Steeda yesterday and they said availability would be in about 10 days and price would be in the $500 range. If that's true I know what I'll be spending money on during the off season.

Wow.. Only $500? I might pick one of those up too.. I don't auto-X or anything, but I'm a handling junkie (last car was a 1997 Grand Prix - Eibach, Koni, etc etc - widetrak's handled well to begin with), and the straight-line-only aspect of this car kind of bothers me. I was considering the Fays2 Watts link, but like F1Fan said, this Steeda unit looks great, and for $500, it's well within to correct price range to make it competitive..

ORIGINAL: Kobie
F1,

Thanks man! We can always count on you for the straight shot on things.
Side note : I talked to Steeda yesterday and they said availability would be in about 10 days and price would be in the $500 range. If that's true I know what I'll be spending money on during the off season.


Hi Kobie,

Thanks, I always try to be honest and to share the information I get back from folks I have contact with about suspension.

WOW! Only $500?No freaking way, that sounds WAY to low for a Steeda Watt's link! Incredible deal if the price turns out to be true as the Steeda Watt's link is really agood design made to appeal to street car owners. The addition of the reasonably but not overly isolated links was a stroke of genius. Can't hardly wait to hear the official price and have Steeda start shipping them out so I can install one in somebody's S197GTand test it against the Saleen PJ Watt's link in my car.

Amazing news, thanks!

HTH!

if it is only $500, i might be addingone by the end of the summer...

This months issue of muscle mustangs & fast fords has an article on saleen's watts link.They didn't quote a price on though so I figure it'd be pretty pricey but, it is something to think about.

so basically, teh watts link, and required accompaniments (like a differential cover) replace teh PHB and brace, right?
sway bar, and UCA/LCA needs are unchanged for a trackable, daily driver set up. right?
and obviously springs dampners needed still
thx
doc

ORIGINAL: doc stang

so basically, teh watts link, and required accompaniments (like a differential cover) replace teh PHB and brace, right?
sway bar, and UCA/LCA needs are unchanged for a trackable, daily driver set up. right?
and obviously springs dampners needed still
thx
doc


Yep! panhard bar & brace replacement. LCAs/UCAs still do the same job, to the same effect.

I just talked to Steeda. They said the Watts Link release is on hold for an "unknown" amount of time.
I for one would rather wait for a perfected part than be a beta tester. I just hope it's ready later this year for Track Days!!!

Yeah........ Scratch that $500 thing I said. Looks like the price is going to be $999.

ORIGINAL: Kobie

Yeah........ Scratch that $500 thing I said. Looks like the price is going to be $999.


and according to their web site it looks like it can be ordered now.

http://www.steeda.com/products/steeda_watts_link_s197.php

Is it just me or does the right side connection to the axle look like it hangs down below the differential?

http://www.steeda.com/directions/555-2525_steeda_watts_linkage.pdf

yeah, i've been checking on it each week and found it on stangsuspension.com today and got on here to post, but you beat me to it. it's too bad it's so expensive, looks like if i want a Watts, it's gonna have to be the Lakewood setup.

ORIGINAL: Texotic

yeah, i've been checking on it each week and found it on stangsuspension.com today and got on here to post, but you beat me to it. it's too bad it's so expensive, looks like if i want a Watts, it's gonna have to be the Lakewood setup.


Are you sure you want the Lakewood setup? See the picpretty poorly thought out design, and the failure shows exactly why (I can't remember where someone first posted this picture, but I saved it as a reminder as to why NOT to get the Lakewood unit).

local://upfiles/96090/E28C37DFD0604C5189388604948FE00A.jpg

for the price I thought it would be made out of chrome moly ......its just mild steel painted gray !

I just saw in on Steeda.ca for $950 CDN. Considering the fact you won't need to order and upgraded bar or brace, it's not that much extra cash for something much better.

ORIGINAL: Vapour Trails

I just saw in on Steeda.ca for $950 CDN. Considering the fact you won't need to order and upgraded bar or brace, it's not that much extra cash for something much better.


They must have just added it because earlier in the week it wasn't up yet. Hmmm, I wonder how much credit I can get from Patfor my Steeda PHB & PHB Brace?:)

ORIGINAL: Sleeper_08

ORIGINAL: Vapour Trails

I just saw in on Steeda.ca for $950 CDN. Considering the fact you won't need to order and upgraded bar or brace, it's not that much extra cash for something much better.


They must have just added it because earlier in the week it wasn't up yet. Hmmm, I wonder how much credit I can get from Patfor my Steeda PHB & PHB Brace?:)


Hi Sleeper_08,

I'll give you $100 for your Steeda PHB and HD PB. I have a guy who wants one and I don't have one to sell anymore. Sold mine to a buddy with a new '08DHG Bullitt.

Cheers!

ORIGINAL: sd07gt

for the price I thought it would be made out of chrome moly ......its just mild steel painted gray !


Hey sd07gt,

I think that image is a 3-Dmodel rendering, not a photographic image.

HTH!

ORIGINAL: Kobie
Is it just me or does the right side connection to the axle look like it hangs down below the differential?

http://www.steeda.com/directions/555-2525_steeda_watts_linkage.pdf



Hi Kobie,

Yeah it dose look low doesn't it? That's so you can adjust the link height to keep them parallel. It looks like something that will catch road debrisand if you are unlucky break it off though I have been told the mounts are very stout. I still don't like it so much even though the linkscan be optimized. For a street car it kind of scares me in the real world.

Cheers!

ORIGINAL: Kobie

I just talked to Steeda. They said the Watts Link release is on hold for an "unknown" amount of time.
I for one would rather wait for a perfected part than be a beta tester. I just hope it's ready later this year for Track Days!!!


Hey,

Funny story about the shipping date slip. I hearda flatbed truck was bringing the first batch of brackets back from powder coating and lost the whole load all over the highway in Florida. Apparently a victim of poor tie down practices. Steeda had to have a whole new batch fabricated to send back to powder coating before they could ship. That put them behind the release dateby a couple threeweeks.

Cheers!

Hmmm, I'd really like to see other shots of this thing installed.

Looking at the last photo in the installation doc, it's hard to say, but the lower right side looks about as low as their relocation brackets. As for "catching things" I don't see how that is possible if that bracket is fully boxed. Once it is on the axle tube, shouldn't any debris just bounce right off the face of it?

Of course, if by "debris" we mean larger things that might actually do serious damage, then yeah it may present that problem...but any more than the relocation brackets? More pics would really help.

Someone like me is just going to have to put one on their car and try it out. Someone else is going to have to pay for it...;)

Best,
-j

Hopefully you are avoiding driving over any 'debris' you see on the road. I won't even drive over a paper bag.

After lookoing at that vs. the Griggs set up, I'm more in favor ofthe Griggs. I just don't like adding all that unsprung weight to the rear axle (live axle is already way heavy enough) and even with the modified rear cover, teh Griggs unit is comparable in price and IMO, a better design. I also don't like clamping anything to the rear axle tubes, and depending on that to keep the rear end in place, no matter how strong they think they are.

Griggs vs Steeda

Which is better???


local://upfiles/74036/0F5A06A4F0E141778C5CD7F3917AE16A.jpg

local://upfiles/74036/5C68098FEE9840E4A610838F23BD2F60.jpg

ORIGINAL: steelcomp
After lookoing at that vs. the Griggs set up, I'm more in favor ofthe Griggs. I just don't like adding all that unsprung weight to the rear axle (live axle is already way heavy enough) and even with the modified rear cover, teh Griggs unit is comparable in price and IMO, a better design. I also don't like clamping anything to the rear axle tubes, and depending on that to keep the rear end in place, no matter how strong they think they are.


Hey steelcomp,

The Griggs Watt's link is a race only part and not really well suited for street use.Ofcourse for you it might be considered a "street" part given your level of commitment to speed. 8^)The Steeda and Saleen Watt's links are designed to be comfortable on the street with reasonable O.E likeNVH levels. I agree that the Griggs Watt's link is probably the best built but itmay not be the best in terms of potential utility andhandling performance . The Steeda Watt's link probably has the most track handling potential once you replace the poly bushing Watt'slink ends with rod ends. The differences in unspring weight are probably not great enough to make a difference on a smooth track and the Steeda Watt's link's adjustability, durabilityand tuneability advantageswould IMOlikely out weightthe Grigg's Watt's link's lighter weight. The Saleen Watt's link can also be converted to use rod ends and it fairly lightweight. But the Saleen Watt's link also cannot be adjusted for roll center height nor can the link geometry be optimized.

For dedicated track use the Saleen PJ Watt's link islow man on the pole but for the street the PJ Watt's link is IMO the best option due to the use of rubber bushings in the linkage for the lowest noise level, nothing hanging downunder the axleandthe PJ Watt's link'slighter unspring and spring weight overall.

Which one youchoose depends on what you do with the car and what you needin tems of design features and adjustability, they all have a place where they will work and fit well. All three of the Watt's linkslooked at hereare fairlyclose in price, close enough to make useage the controling factor. The Saleen PJ Watt's link is $995 shipped from JDM, the SteedaWatt's link is about $1,075 delivered and the Griggs Watt's link is about $1,200 shipped.

HTH!

F1,
I agree wholeheartedly with everything you said. It's a matter of application. On my pesonal car, the unsprung weight makes the difference. In loking at it, it looks to me like the Griggs unit is as adjustable as the Steeda, if not quite as. I know the Griggs unit is designed for cars with a lower ride height than most (suited for their applications) which may or may not be where our cars are. I'm thinking it wouldn't be too difficult on any of these to come up with a "combo" link...poly on one end (depending on the style) and adjustable rod end on the other. Hey..I do have some poly in my suspension!
You've about got me sold on the watts link idea, though. Where does the center of the Saleen link fall in regards to the link mounting points? At your ride height, is it any where near centered?
Ona side note about Griggs...have you looked at their level one street package....complete with GC coilover front struts, sans the GC logo. Thought that was interesting. ;)

ORIGINAL: F1Fan

TheGriggs Watt"s link arms are not parallel nor is there a provision to adjust them this way which is not as good handling as a Watt"s link with parallel arms and verticalcenter pivot link. But these are all largelysmall distinctions.
I"m kind of late to this party, but I think you only need the arms to be inclined at mirror-image angles(and obviously of the same length)in order to keep the WL part of roll center definition moving purely vertically.


Steel - I believe that a hard rubber rod end replacement exists that might also work as a direct, bolt-in replacement. Scroll down to where you see thetext Double Rod Ended LCA"s ride too harsh for you? Try Rubber in one end: (http://www.jonaadland.com/Z28/Mods/LCA/AluminumLCAs.html). I think maybe you and a couple of other folks around here are aware of Jon"s background and experience. Those who aren"t might want to look a couple of paragraphs lower for a short description of an, ummm, inadvertent strength testing episode . . .


Norm

ORIGINAL: F1Fan

Hi Sleeper_08,

I'll give you $100 for your Steeda PHB and HD PB. I have a guy who wants one and I don't have one to sell anymore. Sold mine to a buddy with a new '08DHG Bullitt.

Cheers!



FiFan

Thanks for the offer but I'm going to stick with the PHB for now. The car is so much more capable than I am that it will take me a while to get up to it's level - if ever.