RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or put his hand over his heart for the National
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Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or put his hand over his heart for the National Athe
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| Obama |
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| clinton |
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| McCain. |
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| I don't vote. |
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| Their all a bunch of punks |
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Total Votes : 71
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(last vote on : 4/22/2008 9:55:00 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 5:10:57 PM
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Burnsy
Posts: 2080
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you realize i pointed out that the dems only won congress by a few seats before you did right?...
and second of all, you continue to quote me as "outsmarting"... Just to let you know, this is incorrect. That is why I said you undermined your own point.
What is interesting is that you have posted "damn liberals" several times after people in support of the war, and I noticed it every time, I believe you were waiting for someone to bite. I never saw one actually ask you what you meant. I knew what you meant, and I agree with your point. It is a liberal viewpoint to support the massive overspending that this war has caused. But a true conservative stance is isolationism and a government so small that there is no national Army. Technically today this is known as Libertarian...
But that is not feasible today. There is evil in the world and there are people that want to hurt us, who need to be met with force. Now that we have ruined the infrastructure over there, we need to make it right. And the Iraqi's are currently footing about 35% of the bill (I think..somewhere near there) for reconstruction Bush said in a recent speech, which is soon to be more, which is being paid from the oil that we helped get back online.
I at least see that as a good thing.
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 5:13:30 PM
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jdback19
Posts: 1400
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President Bush ate my baby and thats final.
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 5:15:38 PM
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sw07gt
Posts: 1434
Joined: 9/12/2006
From: Louisville, KY
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Burnsy
you realize i pointed out that the dems only won congress by a few seats before you did right?...
and second of all, you continue to quote me as "outsmarting"... Just to let you know, this is incorrect. That is why I said you undermined your own point.
What is interesting is that you have posted "damn liberals" several times after people in support of the war, and I noticed it every time, I believe you were waiting for someone to bite. I never saw one actually ask you what you meant. I knew what you meant, and I agree with your point. It is a liberal viewpoint to support the massive overspending that this war has caused. But a true conservative stance is isolationism and a government so small that there is no national Army. Technically today this is known as Libertarian...
But that is not feasible today. There is evil in the world and there are people that want to hurt us, who need to be met with force. Now that we have ruined the infrastructure over there, we need to make it right. And the Iraqi's are currently footing about 35% of the bill (I think..somewhere near there) for reconstruction Bush said in a recent speech, which is soon to be more, which is being paid from the oil that we helped get back online.
I at least see that as a good thing.
Now I don't know if this is actually true or not but after all the lies he has told the country I choose not to believe one word that comes out of his mouth and I honestly don't know how so people will believe every word he said. Wow, just wow.
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 5:21:31 PM
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Lord Ashram
Posts: 386
Joined: 12/25/2005
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AHHHH I am glad someone FINALLY took the bait.
My branding of the political group of people who A) argue that Americans take too many handouts and have become soft because of it and deserve fewer handouts but at the same time B) support an administration and a foreign policy that spends TRILLIONS of American earned taxes in a foreign country for a questionable return "liberals" has been VERY intentional.
This same group of people often then turn around and complain about paying high taxes, as if our current financial burden has been improved by the current administration. "Our government is bloated!" they complain. And then they tell us it isn't their fault, and that we should cut from our fellow Americans before cutting from very questionable bedfellows.
So this use of term "liberal," which this same group then uses like a curse word to describe a God-hating, America-Hating enemy, is very deliberate. To me, a truly "bad liberal" is someone who gives money to other countries but denies the same to his or her countrymen, when they contributed the money to begin with, and then passes judgment on the people, the Americans, less fortunate who need this help.
Now, if you want to argue that our administration is not conservative than fine, go ahead, that I'll argue, and you might win. But you'll have to argue with Dick Cheney, and his conservative record is fairly strong. And we can argue about waste in government and among the poor and whatever; very, VERY true in a great many places.
But I've long been annoyed by these hyped-up, flag-waving bozos who sneer "liberal!" when I describe my basic beliefs, but then spread money in all the wrong places and looking down on America.
/rant
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jewel91lx5.0
I don't dislike blacks, jewish people, and mexicans as a whole. I only dislike the majority that I have met or know of.
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 6:12:49 PM
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fastbackford351
Posts: 978
Joined: 12/23/2006
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OK. I have been silent long enough.
My big bitch about the argument that this war is costing too much is the actual percentage of our GDP that the defense budget makes up.
An asshair over 4%! Thats it! Can we really bitch about 4% of our national wealth going to our defense? Honestly people? Yes it is a massive amount of money, but paultry compared to what we as a nation piss away.
Now as a percentage of the actual Government spending the military spending, that number goes up to 14%. But I still don't understand how anybody can bitch about that because the Federal Government is Constitutionally bound to provide for our common defense.
We have a very real, and very deadly enemy that would love nothing more than to have a 9/11 every day if it were within their abilities.
With 7+ years and no more attacks at home I would say that duty has been performed in good faith.
There has to be a lot better argument out there than cost for me to change my mind on this war.
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 6:24:40 PM
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WhiteHorse94
Posts: 162
Joined: 3/23/2006
From: Lakeland, FL
Status: offline
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The Iraqi people nor Saddam Hussein did NOT plan, execute, or take part in 9/11.
Why would going to war with a country/people who had nothing to do with this protect us from those who did?? IMO the Iraq conflict mearly took valuable manpower, resources and funding away from fighting the real enemy.
< Message edited by WhiteHorse94 -- 4/21/2008 6:25:44 PM >
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 6:27:35 PM
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I G Joe
Posts: 2493
Joined: 12/20/2004
From: The Great Northwest
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why do we always get crapped on by candidates.... it would be nice to actually have a good one this time.
< Message edited by I G Joe -- 4/21/2008 6:29:22 PM >
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 6:30:42 PM
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mustangman5089
Posts: 1170
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: NH
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteHorse94
The Iraqi people nor Saddam Hussein did NOT plan, execute, or take part in 9/11.
Why would going to war with a country/people who had nothing to do with this protect us from those who did?? IMO the Iraq conflict mearly took valuable manpower, resources and funding away from fighting the real enemy.
Wow, just wow. You are a ****ing meat head. You do realize we are not at war with the country of Iraq right?
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 6:33:12 PM
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WhiteHorse94
Posts: 162
Joined: 3/23/2006
From: Lakeland, FL
Status: offline
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You do realize our armed forces are currently occuping the country of Iraq, right?
Keeping those armed forces from doing other things, right?
There is a reason they call it the "Iraq war"
I didn't realize I had to spell out every little detail or else I'd be called a f**** etc.
< Message edited by WhiteHorse94 -- 4/21/2008 6:35:20 PM >
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 6:41:47 PM
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mustangman5089
Posts: 1170
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: NH
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteHorse94
You do realize our armed forces are currently occuping the country of Iraq, right?
Keeping those armed forces from doing other things, right?
There is a reason they call it the "Iraq war"
I didn't realize I had to spell out every little detail or else I'd be called a f**** etc.
Yes but that doesn't mean we are at war with Iraq. Soldiers are fighting in Iraq but they're not fighting the country of Iraq.
I guess the ****ing meat head remark was a little uncalled for, but meat head is such an awesome phrase, I firgured I'd throw it in there.
< Message edited by mustangman5089 -- 4/21/2008 6:48:10 PM >
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 6:45:43 PM
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Lord Ashram
Posts: 386
Joined: 12/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: fastbackford351
Can we really bitch about 4% of our national wealth going to our defense?
No. And no one has. What people HAVE complained about is four percent of our money that we earn being used for a bunch of foreigners to build their schools and pay off their death debts and that we could be using that money to make us MUCH much safer. Screw the costs, but it is inefficient waste that I cannot stomach.
As for in Iraq or vs Iraq, the effect is the same. I swear, if we had spent HALF the money we have spent in that sandbox HERE, along our northern and southern borders and in our ports, and used HALF that manpower, illegal immigration would be a dead issue and with it all of its disgusting drain of our economy, and we would have ALL imports checked on their way in, without private industry bitching it is too expensive. Then spend the other half on maintaining a military on awareness, intelligence gathering capabilities that actually feature some Arabic speakers and some subtlety, and weapon systems that allow us to project power without longterm dedication needed. You know, those sorts of weapons that fly in under the radar and go in a vent or down a chimney? Cheaper and we probably kill just as many bad guys who are a danger to OUR country.
No problem with Gitmo and the rest; just want someone I trust to do a good job running it, and what we have isn't it.
< Message edited by Lord Ashram -- 4/21/2008 6:50:48 PM >
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jewel91lx5.0
I don't dislike blacks, jewish people, and mexicans as a whole. I only dislike the majority that I have met or know of.
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 6:56:11 PM
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WhiteHorse94
Posts: 162
Joined: 3/23/2006
From: Lakeland, FL
Status: offline
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I think we're splitting hairs here about either being at war/in a war, whatever. My point was it was taking soldiers and money away from other more important problems.
And I guess it was "regime change". Still, that "regime" was not responsible for 9/11
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 7:08:42 PM
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mustangman5089
Posts: 1170
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: NH
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteHorse94
I think we're splitting hairs here about either being at war/in a war, whatever. My point was it was taking soldiers and money away from other more important problems.
And I guess it was "regime change". Still, that "regime" was not responsible for 9/11
I think that terrorism is a pretty big problem. Are there other problems that need to be takin care of? Of course. But are they more important than fighting terrorism? In my book no, but maybe for you?
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 7:14:58 PM
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mustangman5089
Posts: 1170
Joined: 5/29/2004
From: NH
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sw07gt
quote:
ORIGINAL: mustangman5089
quote:
ORIGINAL: WhiteHorse94
The Iraqi people nor Saddam Hussein did NOT plan, execute, or take part in 9/11.
Why would going to war with a country/people who had nothing to do with this protect us from those who did?? IMO the Iraq conflict mearly took valuable manpower, resources and funding away from fighting the real enemy.
Wow, just wow. You are a ****ing meat head. You do realize we are not at war with the country of Iraq right?
Yea its cool we can just go occupy other countries as long as we aren't technically fighting them. Hell we can even overthrow their leader because he's "evil".
I like the way you think.
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 7:34:04 PM
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Burnsy
Posts: 2080
Joined: 3/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lord Ashram
No. And no one has. What people HAVE complained about is four percent of our money that we earn being used for a bunch of foreigners to build their schools and pay off their death debts and that we could be using that money to make us MUCH much safer. Screw the costs, but it is inefficient waste that I cannot stomach.
As for in Iraq or vs Iraq, the effect is the same. I swear, if we had spent HALF the money we have spent in that sandbox HERE, along our northern and southern borders and in our ports, and used HALF that manpower, illegal immigration would be a dead issue and with it all of its disgusting drain of our economy, and we would have ALL imports checked on their way in, without private industry bitching it is too expensive. Then spend the other half on maintaining a military on awareness, intelligence gathering capabilities that actually feature some Arabic speakers and some subtlety, and weapon systems that allow us to project power without longterm dedication needed. You know, those sorts of weapons that fly in under the radar and go in a vent or down a chimney? Cheaper and we probably kill just as many bad guys who are a danger to OUR country.
No problem with Gitmo and the rest; just want someone I trust to do a good job running it, and what we have isn't it.
I agree with you on everything except that we need to be in Iraq. I will agree to disagree. Its a terrible situation, and I'd like to be out of there ASAP, but if we leave too soon, we will end up being compelled to go back in. And you know thats true. If its starts being a genocide, (with Iran pledging to back the shiites and Saudi Arabia pledging to back the Sunnis... it will be) then even all of the countries saying get out, and the U.N. will say it is our mess.."at least sadaam kept order"...
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 7:36:18 PM
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fastbackford351
Posts: 978
Joined: 12/23/2006
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Ashram...buddy....The immigration issue is seperate from the Islamo-fascist war from what I can see here in the cheap seats. For whatever reason the powers that be, both left and right, there is a STRONG opposition to the border walls. I don't know why and I hate it, but there it is.
In lieu of establishing Fort America, which is a sweet dream of mine but absolutely unrealistic, the boots on the ground in Iraq and Afghanastan and God knows where else, keep the enemy on their heels. Tough to land a good punch while rolling around on your heels.
How does that saying go? "The best defense is a good offense". Or if the saying is actually supposed to be the other way around it should be the way I quoted it.
As far as not checking each and every container, I'd be willing to wager that there is a LOT more going on in that department than you and I know about. Not saying every single one is checked but Uncle Sugar ain't playing 'round and 7+ years with no more hits = inarguable success however poorly executed.
The private companies bitching about the cost of inspecting said cargo, can you imagine what it would cost if the government got their hands on that operation? woof. You have to believe that they , the bad guys, have tried the conex on a cargo ship infiltration bit. That is an overwhelming task but X-Rays and radiation detectors are quality countermeasures and force multipliers.
My point is that obviously we are doing much right in the way of protecting America, which, after all, is what is all boils down to. No more 9/11's. If ugly schit has to happen then make the ugly schit happen over there and keep it out of my back yard.
The death benefits to Iraqi people I have no real qualm with either. Good P.R. & because it is the right thing to do.
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Government Warning:
Governments are extremely dangerous.
Death, imprisonment, theft of property
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giving them too much power.
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RE: Why doesn't Obama say the pledge of alligence? Or ... - 4/21/2008 7:48:46 PM
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Lord Ashram
Posts: 386
Joined: 12/25/2005
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At this point I don't necessarily agree with immediate and unilateral withdrawal from Iraq. This is a long term problem and one that, at this point, needs a very close eye on. But I feel like the way it is being handled, with a certain arrogance and without the ability to get active international support (i.e. to get our way out of it a bit) is poor.
Fastback, I don't even disagree that the war in Iraq HELPS keep us safe. However, it is how MUCH safer that is the question. I think VERY few of the "bad guys" over there are a threat to us, and very few of the powers behind those bad guys are a threat to us. Come on, Iraq isn't some war on terrorists who actually threaten us, actually threaten the homeland. It is us being stuck in between religious divides and, even more dangerously, between clan divides, between Al Sadr and Hakim, the family that Maliki is indebted to. Yes, it may give some travelling foreign fighters a place to strike American soldiers, but most of the "terrorists" there are of the decidedly homegrown variety who don't care what is going on beyond the borders of Sadr City. Would we have to keep an eye out for more ambitious terrorists? Yes, but I don't think this would be a problem for a smaller, more streamlined military force and a FAR more robust ring of intelligence assets and friendly foreign powers.
As for the checking, estimates are normally between one and two percent being scanned for the biggies; nuclear or biological. I actually have a very close friend who is a clerk for a supreme court justice, and I went through some background interviews for him with the FBI. At the conclusion of the interview (it is neat to have two FBI agents come to your door and introduce themselves with their ID) I asked "Listen, just out of curiousity..." and asked some questions about bridge and tunnel security in the United States and port security. They were remarkably candid, both saying we basically do nothing to guard against many threats and they agreed with my statement of "Wait... largely we are just getting lucky?" That was a very scary, and eye opening thing to hear.
I just don't think we are being as aware and efficient as you seem to. There have been some successes; some intelligence gathered, some attempts stopped, I am sure more stopped than we are allowed to know about. The progress in Afghanistan (which even now we hear is starting to roll back) is admirable and certainly keeps us safer. However, I see so many poor turns, so many missteps, so many poor calculations, so many backings of poor leaders and incompetent foreign leaders, and so many examples of poor planning and vision and ability to forsee problems. The domestic security concerns could be MUCH better addressed by reallocating resources currently invested aboard and using them domestically.
< Message edited by Lord Ashram -- 4/21/2008 7:51:49 PM >
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jewel91lx5.0
I don't dislike blacks, jewish people, and mexicans as a whole. I only dislike the majority that I have met or know of.
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