As you know, I sell both Koni and Tokico (as well as other dampers). As you know, I tend to prefer the Koni's over D-specs, but also think that D-specs are pretty good bang for the buck which is why I do sell them, and at times recommend them depending on the situation.

I got this note from a customer today who had D-specs previously and now Koni's. He's using Steeda springs and did with the D-specs, and he had FRPP Eibach springs prior to those (run with the FRPP dampers and D-specs). He's not affiliated with me or any other company other than having bought his Koni's from me (and only the Koni's, he had all the other stuff before he found me). Here are his thoughts:

Sam,


My local Ford dealer installed the Koni's last Tuesday. They have a technician there who is very meticulous. He said that he set them at your recommended settings. I have driven the car about 45 miles since the Koni's were installed.
Sam, to me they make a very noticeable difference over the D Specs. The roads I have driven on would have really upset the car in the past. It feels more planted with the Koni's but at the same time they have a very nice feeling of compliance that I cannot put into words.
Its like I can feel a quality difference is about the only way I can describe it.
My cornering feels better also. I have not driven far on an interstate yet but the short drive I made felt very good.
I appreciate all your help and the time you took over the phone.
So right now my set up is, Steeda Ultra light springs, Koni Sport Shocks/Struts, Steeda HD strut mounts, Steeda Adj. rear panhard bar & HD brace, Steeda G trac brace, factory 18" Bullitts with BFG 255/45/18 KDW NTs. 3.55s.
Is there anything else you can recommend? with my goal of increased handling while still maintaining a good ride.

THANKS AGAIN!

P.S. And I know what you mean about the koni's providing a "BMW" ride, the Konis jut feel like quality and thats not my trying to justify the cost. Take Care!"

.... he is a member on this forum, but prefers to lurk vs. get into discussions. As such I removed his name for his privacy, but he did give me permission to have folks contact him privately if he thought it would help though I'm not inclined to do so. I feel that he's willing to do such a thing speaks volumes about how pleased he is with the parts and the service, and I truly appreciate that.

And an interesting note about how I work. He had the Steeda springs in place, has asked about changing springs to what I tend to use first. But I said no, because in the end I knew he's find a difference with the dampers, and didn't want to make two big changes at once. So while I could have sold more, that's not how I operate. If I felt the springs were a mess, I'd have changed him. I did not, so I gave up a bigger sale for a happy customer.

I know this is a little horn-tooting, but I wanted folks to know this is why I don't throw the baby out with the bath-water. And, more importantly I felt it was an unbiased opinion on what are two of the best all around damper options out there for these cars. take it fwiw.

are the konis adjustable too?

Sam, why is it that you're always tooting your own horn, then defending yourself (or vice-verse)?
I don't understand the purpose of this post except to promote yourself and a product you sell. Would you explain why the Konis are better, or was it just that your customer thought they felt better? Is he an experienced driver that can objectively critique a damper? The differencecould be a simple difference in damping, and have nothing to do with the "quality" of the damper. Of course I'm not comparing the Konis to the Tok's...just don't see the purpose of the post, so I thought I'd ask.

Tjeppelin,
Yes, the Konis are adjustable, on the rebound damping only. The Tok's are single dajustable, but change both the rebound and compression damping together. Changing the relationship between the rebound and compression damping (assuming the compression is OK where it is) actually makes the Koni more "adjustable".

since sam is off line and won't be responding soon i thought i'd throw my 2 cents in. feel free to ignore my opinion.

i think the purpose of the post is exactly as you suggest: to promote himself and his product. having said that i don't think there is anything wrong with that. he is a site sponsor after all... he's paid some kind of fee, i presume, to be able to do just that. he even admits he is tooting his own horn.

as far as explaining why the konis are superior, i believe that's been done ad nauseum.

sure, he's opinionated, but i love a good discussion and i have enjoyed reading hisresponses and i feel i've gained knowledge from them.

(and i've never bought anything from him.)


ORIGINAL: steelcomp

Sam, why is it that you're always tooting your own horn, then defending yourself (or vice-verse)?
I don't understand the purpose of this post except to promote yourself and a product you sell. Would you explain why the Konis are better, or was it just that your customer thought they felt better? Is he an experienced driver that can objectively critique a damper? The differencecould be a simple difference in damping, and have nothing to do with the "quality" of the damper. Of course I'm not comparing the Konis to the Tok's...just don't see the purpose of the post, so I thought I'd ask.

Sam,
Thanks for the post. I'm always looking for info and user opinions.

Fair enough.ORIGINAL: timothyrw

since sam is off line and won't be responding soon i thought i'd throw my 2 cents in. feel free to ignore my opinion.

i think the purpose of the post is exactly as you suggest: to promote himself and his product. having said that i don't think there is anything wrong with that. he is a site sponsor after all... he's paid some kind of fee, i presume, to be able to do just that. he even admits he is tooting his own horn.

as far as explaining why the konis are superior, i believe that's been done ad nauseum.

sure, he's opinionated, but i love a good discussion and i have enjoyed reading hisresponses and i feel i've gained knowledge from them.

(and i've never bought anything from him.)


ORIGINAL: steelcomp

Sam, why is it that you're always tooting your own horn, then defending yourself (or vice-verse)?
I don't understand the purpose of this post except to promote yourself and a product you sell. Would you explain why the Konis are better, or was it just that your customer thought they felt better? Is he an experienced driver that can objectively critique a damper? The differencecould be a simple difference in damping, and have nothing to do with the "quality" of the damper. Of course I'm not comparing the Konis to the Tok's...just don't see the purpose of the post, so I thought I'd ask.

I'm sure the reason Sam is on here is to sell stuff. That's his business. He is however a sponsor and I see nothing wrong with that. I'm alwaysa little leary when someone tries to do that.With that being said, what ever advice Sam gives, you can take it to the bank.

What everhe sells you will work and work well. I'm in no way affiliated with Sam and in fact was a competitor of his when I worked at the Tire Rack for 20 years. I have bought products from him for my Camaro in the past and will continue to do so if I buy a Mustang.

Iautocross my current car in Street Mod, although it is very close to being an ESP car. I can't count the number of times ofpeople coming up to me commentingabout being blown awayby the capabilities of the car.I can thank Sam for that.

Here's a picture of the Mulletmobile at the Tire Rack test track. This was before going to 17x11's and 315/35/17's
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/SVThis/Car%20pictures/tirerack_100904_26.jpg
By the way, the car's running Koni yellows.

Sam,

I always appreciate reading your input to the threads and know you have considerable knowledge of suspension handling. I have no problem giving you a call when it's time to upgrade my suspension. Just give me the best price available!!!

cool thanks

ORIGINAL: SVThis

I'm sure the reason Sam is on here is to sell stuff. That's his business. He is however a sponsor and I see nothing wrong with that. I'm alwaysa little leary when someone tries to do that.With that being said, what ever advice Sam gives, you can take it to the bank.

What everhe sells you will work and work well. I'm in no way affiliated with Sam and in fact was a competitor of his when I worked at the Tire Rack for 20 years. I have bought products from him for my Camaro in the past and will continue to do so if I buy a Mustang.

Iautocross my current car in Street Mod, although it is very close to being an ESP car. I can't count the number of times ofpeople coming up to me commentingabout being blown awayby the capabilities of the car.I can thank Sam for that.

Here's a picture of the Mulletmobile at the Tire Rack test track. This was before going to 17x11's and 315/35/17's
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/SVThis/Car%20pictures/tirerack_100904_26.jpg
By the way, the car's running Koni yellows.


WTF?

THAT is by far the most ridiculous post i've seen in here yet. Sam doesn't need to be defended. He's a site sponsor and has purchased the right to sell parts and use the site to his advantage. What the site doesn't need is an F-body fag :D;)signing up to defend him. BTW - the Mustang will STILL outsell the new Camaro like it ALWAYS HAS and ALWAYS WILL. [sm=gears.gif]

I don't always agree with Sam or anybody else on here for that matter. Sometimes everyone agrees. This place is full of opinions by definition. Some are correct and informative, some are not.

If I had to guess Sam posted this as an example of how the average Joe describes their experience because there are some people on here that don't understand words that have more than a couple of syllables. Rather than spew out technical $hit that some people don't "get", he said "here's what Joe Shmoe said".

This is an example of one of those useless threads that spirals out of control. Sam posted a customer's view. View it.

^^^^ZZZZZZZZZZING!

i know now what the "f" in f-body means...

ORIGINAL: RodeoFlyer

ORIGINAL: SVThis

I'm sure the reason Sam is on here is to sell stuff. That's his business. He is however a sponsor and I see nothing wrong with that. I'm alwaysa little leary when someone tries to do that.With that being said, what ever advice Sam gives, you can take it to the bank.

What everhe sells you will work and work well. I'm in no way affiliated with Sam and in fact was a competitor of his when I worked at the Tire Rack for 20 years. I have bought products from him for my Camaro in the past and will continue to do so if I buy a Mustang.

Iautocross my current car in Street Mod, although it is very close to being an ESP car. I can't count the number of times ofpeople coming up to me commentingabout being blown awayby the capabilities of the car.I can thank Sam for that.

Here's a picture of the Mulletmobile at the Tire Rack test track. This was before going to 17x11's and 315/35/17's
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/SVThis/Car%20pictures/tirerack_100904_26.jpg
By the way, the car's running Koni yellows.


WTF?

THAT is by far the most ridiculous post i've seen in here yet. Sam doesn't need to be defended. He's a site sponsor and has purchased the right to sell parts and use the site to his advantage. What the site doesn't need is an F-body fag :D;)signing up to defend him. BTW - the Mustang will STILL outsell the new Camaro like it ALWAYS HAS and ALWAYS WILL. [sm=gears.gif]

I don't always agree with Sam or anybody else on here for that matter. Sometimes everyone agrees. This place is full of opinions by definition. Some are correct and informative, some are not.

If I had to guess Sam posted this as an example of how the average Joe describes their experience because there are some people on here that don't understand words that have more than a couple of syllables. Rather than spew out technical $hit that some people don't "get", he said "here's what Joe Shmoe said".

This is an example of one of those useless threads that spirals out of control. Sam posted a customer's view. View it.


Hi there RodeoLiar. Thanks for the warm welcome. I'll defend Sam if I want to, even if I have to read your stupid ass comments in the process.

Just for your own education, which from your above postI'm sure you have very little of,I didn't sign up on here just to defend Sam. Believe it or not I'm actually considering buying a new Mustang to run in F stock. I've been lurking on this board for a long time. I've been autocrossing and trackingF bodies and Mustangs for 30 years or about the time you were born. Do you think I give a **** if the Mustang outsells the Camaro? I'm not some fan boyof Camaros.

Next time just get on your littlehorsie and ride off into the West. I might suggest the Grand Canyon.
http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/Hobby-Horse-Print-C10359529.jpeg

ORIGINAL: timothyrw

^^^^ZZZZZZZZZZING!

i know now what the "f" in f-body means...


It's great this thread has been an education to you. The letter g by the way comes after f. By the way the "f" stands for faster than you.

don't the konis have a defect or something though.. some kind of recall.. how can you be sure youre getting a "good set"

ORIGINAL: siberian.mist

don't the Konis have a defect or something though.. some kind of recall.. how can you be sure youre getting a "good set"


Check this thread http://www.mustangforums.com/m_4676127/tm.htm

I'm glad that the majority of people seem to understand how business and life works, and I appreciate it. Thank you to those that understand how the world works, and that realize that I can't just sit here and wait for folks to come to me. All companies advertise in some way, shape of form, or they aren't companies for long.

I do run a business, and it's how I pay my bills. No different than if you work at a desk, or drive a truck, or mow lawns. Letting people know that you have something to offer is a necessary part of staying in business (or keeping your job). I believe it's called advertising, and is part of what I paid for when I became a site sponsor. Now, the other difference here is that I actually own and driven Mustangs, most companies are here solely to advertise. I'm here for that, but also because I enjoy (usually) working with fellow owners.

I guess I upset the apple cart by showing up and sometimes disagreeing, and "tooting my own horn". I'm a bit sad that dissenting opinions are looked up by some with such disdain. [&o]

Yes, Koni's are adjustable... though unlike D-specs Koni's do not link the compression to the rebound damping. Koni's for S197's only do rebound damping (which I think is generallya good thing, but not everyone does because not everyone understands how compression and rebound differ).

There was a production issue, and during that time some other companies did not work with Koni to remedy the issues. I send all the "bad" ones back and had them replaced with good. Some places kept the bad ones because, since there was no official recall they were not compelled to return the bad ones. I still havea set of "bad" ones here, if I were as big a dirt-bag as some seem to think I'd have sold them to someone. Instead I was very proactive in making sure they weren't installed and that the customer who got them originally got replacements as fast as we could get them for him. Technically, I could sell those to someone. I never would, even right now when we are a few more weeks from more Koni stock. Easy sales aren't my bad..... correct ones are.

I haven't seen too many people post about actually driving on Konis vs D-specs on the same car/springs, so I'd say this is a usefull thread. Thanks for the comparison!

Tom

Sam Strano claims 4th SCCA National Championship and 3rd ProSolo Series Championship (www.stranoparts.com (http://www.stranoparts.com))

Can anyone else claim that here on there racing resume?

I have spoken to Sam on a handful of occasions regarding parts that I purchased from him, he went as far as to find another supplier because he couldn't provide me with the "corrected" Koni's. Everytime he has called me or I have called him, I sit with a pad and pen in hand to take notes. The man is an open book and has a wealth of knowledge regarding suspension setup. Very few companies go that extra mile to ensure a customer is completely satisfied with there purchase, Sam does everytime. I have read thisin a number of posts from customers from this forum alone, including myself. As Ifurther the setup on my car I will continue to be a deticated customer of his for his service and knowledge.

Seriously guys... I see this on every stinking forum I go to. People moan and complain that companies don't understandwhat they want for their cars, or that they are just in it for the money and they don't care about our community... And without Fail, every time a guy like Sam comes along and not only tries to provide what the community wants but tries to be an active participant in it, they get flamed as soon as they mention the fact that a part they like and run themselves is one they sell. For god sakes guys, He owns a mustang himself... with his availablity of parts, I hafta think he's tried about every combo known to man, and then some..

I think Sam has contributed a great amount to the handling forum and posts like this one are only to show that his customers agree with him. Personally, when I have the money set aside to address my handling issues, Sam will be getting my money without question. Guys like Sam are the real deal and are the one's you should be taking a lead from, not the "Internet Hero's" who autocrossed once with his Mom's Acura SUV and moans and flames when Sam posts info counter to his.

It's crap like this that make manufactures lurkers on car forums, and not active members...

newbie, here,
just my 0.02 worth,
i do not yet know a lot about suspension and handling, but am trying to learn as much as i can before i make any purchases,
i was/am strongly considering d-specs, but this thread has me now considering the koni's strongly as well,

i need to learn more about : adjusting the rebound only (a la koni) vs coupling (single) adjustability ( a la d-specs) of both simultaneously.
to that effect, i am going to give sam a call,
partly because of his horn tooting,
partly because of his wins,
partly because of he seems to deal with things in a forthright manner, (at least by his described examples)
partly because a lot of folks here seem to really respect his opinion, and, lastly . . .
partly to reward his advertising effort, (at least with some traffic, and potentially some business)

yes the o.p. was partially self serving,
yes it was to report an observation from someone who has tried both, ( as i doubt many people have had that oppotunity)

like rodeoflyer said, . . . I am Joe Schmoe ( not to say sam's customer is)
and i don't yet understand all the jargon, so hearing it in less technical terms is somewhat valuable,
knowing what else is on the car ( i realize there is a partial list) wouuld help paint a fuller picture.

i see nothing wrong with the post,
it did seem to spiral out in left field,


i certainly do value teh opinions of vendor's and shops whos hands and butts are in it, rather than just selling stuff.
fwiw, (which probably aint much)
doc

I can maybe help with some of this.

About bump damping - it works with the spring in resisting wheel upward movement over bumps, and for any given car there's some sort of limit to how much force this travel should be resisted with. It's not supposed to be a major player in controlling roll, just provide enough control of the upward wheel travel so it won't overshoot and enough to avoid allowing the car to "jack down" over rough surfaces.

Ride-wise, it's obvious that too much bump will simply ride harder all the time.Way too much bump will make the tires go airborne over bumps (read: zero grip in any direction). Performance-wise, too much total force means that at least that wheel is not contributing as much cornering force as it could be. And the combination oftoo much force on the rise of a bumpfollowed by going light down the backside = greater tire force variation, which equals overall less grip as you travel that distance. Tire are not "constant coefficient of friction" devices; grip increases more slowly than downward load is applied. Particularly up front in a front-heavy RWD car, that's not the hot tip for getting the thing to maintain front grip.

I'll stick my neck out a little and suggest that D-specs might tend to work slightly better with springs toward the "soft" end of the range of readily available springs, and that Konis might be better with the heavier springs.


Norm

ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson

I can maybe help with some of this.
. . . I'll stick my neck out a little and suggest that D-specs might tend to work slightly better with springs toward the "soft" end of the range of readily available springs, and that Konis might be better with the heavier springs.

Norm


so when you say heavier springs favor the koni's, is that to say PROGRESSIVE RATE springs?
and the "lighter" springs to go with tok.'s means LINEAR?

ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson
I can maybe help with some of this.

About bump damping - it works with the spring in resisting wheel upward movement over bumps, and for any given car there's some sort of limit to how much force this travel should be resisted with. It's not supposed to be a major player in controlling roll, just provide enough control of the upward wheel travel so it won't overshoot and enough to avoid allowing the car to "jack down" over rough surfaces.
Ride-wise, it's obvious that too much bump will simply ride harder all the time.Way too much bump will make the tires go airborne over bumps (read: zero grip in any direction). Performance-wise, too much total force means that at least that wheel is not contributing as much cornering force as it could be. And the combination oftoo much force on the rise of a bumpfollowed by going light down the backside = greater tire force variation, which equals overall less grip as you travel that distance. Tire are not "constant coefficient of friction" devices; grip increases more slowly than downward load is applied. Particularly up front in a front-heavy RWD car, that's not the hot tip for getting the thing to maintain front grip.

I'll stick my neck out a little and suggest that D-specs might tend to work slightly better with springs toward the "soft" end of the range of readily available springs, and that Konis might be better with the heavier springs.

Norm


Hi Norm!

Thewaywe used to change thedamping rates on the Porsche (and BMW and VW) race cars we worked on was generally that asspring rates got higher (all else being equal, sprung and unsprung mass) the bump damping rate got softer and the rebound damping rate got higher. This was pretty easy to achive because all you had to do was tweak the externalrebound or bump adjusters on the dampers and send the car back out. Relatively speaking in effect the Koni Sport dampers are doing this exact same thing and it works pretty well as long as theinital bump rate is reasonably well selected and theproject car's specs is not too far off in terms of sprung and unsprung mass as selected by Koni. That said if you don't like what comprssion valving Koni has selected for you you can easily change the bump and/or rebounddamping rangefor a small fee by sending thedampersto Koni'sracing service department, talking to an engineer anddescribing where you want to go with the re-valve. We used to do this all the time early in the development ofcars with single adjustable dampers and for street cars without the budget for Koni D/A dampers.

As to the D-Specs working better with softer springs thishas not been my experience. I've been playing with springs, spring rates, ride heights damping, camber, toe and bumpsteer settingsfor a few months with the Steeda Adjustable Suspension setup on my car.I have put everything from a 165lb. spring to 250lb. springinfront and 165lb. to 200lb. spring on the rearof my car and the D-Specshave worked very well if not perfectly with all of them. I have also had the most amazing ride quality out of them for a given spring rateand have also tried some very different wheel and tire setups and found that the D-Specs work well with a VERYwide range of spring ratesand wheel/tireweight combinations too. I have not seen any reason to go to a higher spring rate for a street car and even if this were a dedicatedtrack car assumming it was stripped for weightI could not see going to more than a 375-450lb. front spring or more than 225lb.-250lb. at the rear, it's just not necessary. If I was going to builda serious racecar for the streetI would skip the Tokicosand go with Konis not because of anyissues on the part of the D-Spec dampers butfor the depth of services Koni's racing services shop has to offer and the ease of access to that technical tallent pool. Of course I would not bother to buy the Koni Sport dampers either. I would skip rightpast them and build up a set of Koni Race double adjustable inverted coilover struts andKoni Race double adjustable coilovers for the rear and save all the fuss of going back and forth to Koni racing services to revalve the dampers looking for what will work right for the car with a single adjustable Koni Sport damper everytime I made a change to the car that changed the sprung and/or unspring weights of the car.

HTH!

<< EDIT: OBTW all of the springs we use to use onPorsche, BMW and VWrace cars were straight rate springs as were the springs I have been playing with on my own car's Steeda coilovers. >>

ORIGINAL: doc stang
ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson
I can maybe help with some of this.
. . . I'll stick my neck out a little and suggest that D-specs might tend to work slightly better with springs toward the "soft" end of the range of readily available springs, and that Konis might be better with the heavier springs.

Norm

so when you say heavier springs favor the koni's, is that to say PROGRESSIVE RATE springs?
and the "lighter" springs to go with tok.'s means LINEAR?


Hi doc stang,

Progressive rate springs are a marketing hype thing. In reality all of the so called progressive rate springs arehit or missfor production vehicles. If you find a set that works well on one car the next set frequently don't work on the next car due to weight differences between the carsand the way the springs got made that day. The progressive springrate feature ofthe popularsport springs are not really so muchprogressive once the car is on the ground. The springs are wound with coilscloser to each other on one end and farther apart on the other end of the spring. Once the spring is installed much of that softer rate is used up by simply installing the spring to keep pressure on the spring seatsso the spring can'tcome out of the seats. The rest of the soft coils areused up as the car is loweredonto the spring and they take up the weight of the car. Once the car is being fully supportd by the springs if you stick your headunder the car you will see that the softer coils are pretty much inspring bind and acting as a solid at this point. In other wordsalmost all of the softer coils are no longer actively supporting the carand the stiffer part of the spring is doing most of thework now. There is a very fine balancebetween the softer coils and the firmer coils andwhich are active depend entirely on the weight being loadedon the spring which can vary by hundreds of pounds even on the same model due to the stuff people thinkthey need in their cars these days.

What I have found withEibach Pro-Kit springsaccross many different applicationswas the springs were too low and allowed the car to bottom out too often. Well gee, isn't thisexactly what the progressive rate spring design was supposed to prevent in the first place? Well yes that was the idea anyway and what the marketing geeks keep pumping out in print and on their websites. What was happening here in the real world though was the heel of thespring rate curve was well past the point wherethe increased spring rate could act to prevent or reducebottoming out because the car was already staring to bottom before the increased spring rate could take effect. I've seen this many times with many different brands of progressive spring and I just was not going to put up with it or try to find a progressive rate spring design that was designed to work properly on my car. Hence the Steeda coilovers even though I swore I was not going to go this route again on a street car and certainly not on this carmy daily driver. Oh well such is the state of the art in street suspension these days. If you really want it done right you still really have to do it yourself OR hire someone like Sam or find a local guywho has similar setup expertise. Of course you could just ask me and I'll tell you what I found and I don't charge you a thing unless you want to come over and use my garage and tools. Then you just have to bringover a couple of cases of beerto keep the garage gods happy.

HTH!

ORIGINAL: doc stang

so when you say heavier springs favor the koni's, is that to say PROGRESSIVE RATE springs?
and the "lighter" springs to go with tok.'s means LINEAR?

No. When I use terms like "lighter" or "heavier"with respect to springs, it's just synonyms for "softer" or "stiffer", respectively. I'm only looking at the spring rate at that point. Sorry.

FWIW, I'm not crazy about progressive rate springs either. To me they're useful as devices for improving the ride for mild to moderate drivers for whom handling = I can turn the car into the parking space easily (yay!). And it's a gimmick to let people lower their cars without sacrificing all of the ride quality. A band-aid, if you will. My opinion, of course.

Chip has described much better the point that I was trying to make. As you increase the shock setting to "match" a stiffer spring, the D-specs are theoretically going the wrong way with their bump damping, while the Konis are at least remaining constant on the 'bump' side of things. Hence it appears to me that as you select stiffer springs the Konis increasingly become the better choice.Assuming that their bump damping choice suits you, that is.

This bump damping issue isn't a pass-fail thing in a street car, BTW, just one of the little percentage things that win races or auto-X's for you once you get serious. A sensitive driver might notice a difference in the ride (noting here that some folks don't even notice the difference in ride firmness when you replace totally dead shocks with new ones). The increase in bump damping in the D-specs may not even be very much. (I'd really like to see some shock plots, hint, hint . . . Chip?).


Norm

ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson
ORIGINAL: doc stang
so when you say heavier springs favor the koni's, is that to say PROGRESSIVE RATE springs?
and the "lighter" springs to go with tok.'s means LINEAR?

No. When I use terms like "lighter" or "heavier"with respect to springs, it's just synonyms for "softer" or "stiffer", respectively. I'm only looking at the spring rate at that point. Sorry.

FWIW, I'm not crazy about progressive rate springs either. To me they're useful as devices for improving the ride for mild to moderate drivers for whom handling = I can turn the car into the parking space easily (yay!). And it's a gimmick to let people lower their cars without sacrificing all of the ride quality. A band-aid, if you will. My opinion, of course.

Chip has described much better the point that I was trying to make. As you increase the shock setting to "match" a stiffer spring, the D-specs are theoretically going the wrong way with their bump damping, while the Konis are at least remaining constant on the 'bump' side of things. Hence it appears to me that as you select stiffer springs the Konis increasingly become the better choice.Assuming that their bump damping choice suits you, that is.

This bump damping issue isn't a pass-fail thing in a street car, BTW, just one of the little percentage things that win races or auto-X's for you once you get serious. A sensitive driver might notice a difference in the ride (noting here that some folks don't even notice the difference in ride firmness when you replace totally dead shocks with new ones). The increase in bump damping in the D-specs may not even be very much. (I'd really like to see some shock plots, hint, hint . . . Chip?).

Norm


Hi Norm,

There used to be some D-Spec charts on the webbut I don't now where they are any more. As I recallthe bump damping changes are fairly small and amount to no more than maybe 20% or so the the total working bump compression rateat the fully firm setting for a given piston velocity. This is in strong contrast to the rebound adjustability range which I recall being really wide somwhere about 200%withsharply increasing damping rates at slower piston velocities as the rebound damping increased. Somewhere around the lower 1/3? or soof the damping range thedamping curves goflat or linear for both bump and rebound damping rates. I think this is why the D-Specs ride well when set at their lower settings and yet when turned upcontrolincreasesso much more quicky than ride degrades. I also think this is why they work so wellwithlinear rate springs, the damping rates and the ratio betweenbump and rebound rates are were wellselectedfor the car so you can have a pretty niceride and still achive a high level of transitional control even at lower settings. It's weird to me but it works well enough. I think that on th smoothest pavement the type of valve Tokico used is not as refinedor as responsive as the valves used in the Koni Sport dampers.I think the D-Spec valving is morerugged compared to the Koni Sport's valve metering system as we used to get a lot of blown Koni Sport dampers back from the VW rally racers. Of courseas I recall they were using the Koni FIA stuts and rear dampers but AFAIK Konihas always used the same basic valve metering system in all of the top adjusted singleadjustable dampers.

HTH!

<< EDITED for clarity >>

The "chart" of the D-specs is available on Tokico's website... but it's a generic chart that just gives an idea of what's up. Does not tell you what car they are for,or if theyare fronts or rears. Basically it's a very, very generic example. And it's here, right on Tokico's site: http://www.hitachi-hap-la.com/TokicoGasShocks/products/dspec/

As for which is more durable. I have way, way better luck with Koni's than Tokico's where durability is involved. While F1Fan might have seen a lot of blown VW units, Rally is not what they are intended, or designed for. All I know is that so far I've had 3 blown D-specs and no blown Koni's. Doesn't mean thatbreaking onecan't happen but over the years in my experience, regardless of the car, Koni's don't have as many issues in comparison. What's more is that there are at least 3 different "Sytles" of Koni single adjustables, and they are not all the same. They adjust in different ways. Some you have to compress fully to adjust, some you extend fully to adjust. And then some use the knob, like the S197's do. They are not all the same mechanism.

I'm on record as stating the D-specs are a big improvement over previous Tokico's and I'm notanti-D-Spec. While the bump doesn't make the same kind of increases as the rebound, it shouldn't. There is generally about 2/3rds more rebound in a typical shock as there is compression damping, and if the D-Specs increased the compression in an equal amount vs. an equal ratio, that'd be big trouble. But as it stands, compression damping and rebound damping do different jobs. I just feel that compression damping need to be right, and critically damped. Not overdamped. The compression job is to control the movement of the unsprung weight. It does not deal with how the car takes a set, or how it generates roll or pitch. Those are rebound items. If you get too little compression that's bad as the tire bounces like a basketball. Too much and the ride becomes too harsh. The issue I have with the D-Specs, and the biggest reasonthat I personallychanged and recommend Koni's is that you can't have one without the other. And I've been boxed by that system of adjustment. There have been times I wanted more rebound control in the car, but getting it meant the accompanying increase on compression, which on not perfect roads makes for a more "heavy footed" response to impacts. Sure, we can turn the shocks down and make that better... but then you soften rebound damping and that in turn makes the car generate roll and pitch more quickly, and in extreme instances might cause enough drop to not deal with the spring rate well enough.

What started this thread was my posting of a customer's findings (not my own). Remember the car is on a set of Steeda springs. The man had both D-specs and the Koni's and his findings illustrate the phenomena I'm talking about above with regards to compression vs. rebound. He called me complaining the car didn't deal with bumps well. While he could turn the shocks softer and it helped, the car then felt too vague. This was a classic case of wanting to adjust rebound alone.... which is how we ended up getting him Koni's. The only change he made this time around was the dampers. He asked about changing springs, but I told him to wait, as I knew the Koni change would have a good effect. I didn't know if it'd be perfect for him or not, that was something we had to find out (and a reason I recommend incremental changes and not massive ones). I should also note that our first conversation revolved around what settings he was using in D-Specs. The second was a report on different settings and his findings. Only then did we make the decision to change him over, and clearly his happy with the switch.

I do think the Koni's are superior dampers. I also don't hate D-Specs. I think if money is truly an issue, the D-Specs are good bang for the buck. However, I find that folks often say money is an issue but go spend as much or more on things that matter much less. That's a mistake. Good dampers rule so much, and will be in place for so long that they should not be skimped upon.

Can you do worse than D-Specs? Sure, and I sell them because I believe they work and work pretty well. However, I don't feel they are the best thing around, and like most "options" you can get on a car, when you opt for something that doesn't cost as much, you tend to give up something. Here it's the combination of ride quality vs. performance and just now finely you dial in the car. I heard a great line the other night, and it's true.... "You can't know what you don't know". Those that have been able to back to back the two dampers know both sides. Those that haven't been able to, or can't have to rely on what they hear and can learn. Like anything you will get different opinions. This is why I spend time with folks and do my best to explain the differences. Something that is not my favorite doesn't equal that thing sucking. It might, but the two are not mutually exclusive. I don't think D-Specs suck, but they aren't Koni's IMO.

Hi Sam,

There was an S197D-Spec #DSP12 specific chart very early on the website when they were announced but this has been replaced with the generic version as you mention.

Durability wise when used on a smooth surface and maintained well I have no doubt thatD-Specs will lastjust as long as a Koni sport dampercan but inthe real world this is a big variable and with D-Specs being relatively new only time will tell in this application Absolute numbers are deceptive, there have been more D-Specs sold than Koni Sports I assumme this istrue evenat your relatively new shop. It is not the absolute number of returns but the percentage of units sold and returned actually failed (not caused by external forces)that shows reliability.

Historically I agree with you Koni are very reliable dampers but like everything else they do break on a regularbasis. The place I used to work atused to sell thousands ofKonidampers every year and the return rate of Konidampers that were actually broken was higher than the number of Bilstein dampersin the same condition at that time.Actually theKoni VWrace struts we soldwere supposedly built and designed for just for rally use and would blow the valves in the pistons out not the seals and not the foot valves. Based on the problems folks had with the Koni dampers at the time a lot of people switched to Bilsteins and had very few problems not caused by putting the car into a ditch or tree. Koni and Bilstein use very different valving methods and the Bilsteins justworked more reliablyfor the rally folks than the Konis at the time. Stuff changes all the time though so who know what works now for the rally folks? This was just an example and my experience with a problem that Koni did not overcome before people jumped toBillies.

The interesting thing is that if you look at even the D-Spec'scompresiondamping rateI think the percentange of change is much smaller than the increased rebound damping effectively giving you the same sort of adjustment we used to do on the 2/3-way dampers in use at the time. How the D-Specs and Koni Sports curves differ mightshow us better how they differ and why they can feel so differently with different springs and unsprungweights. I may be ableto call andget the specfic shock dyno charts for the DSP12 dampers from Tokico. Or if you have half a set of D-Specs you can send me for a couple of weeks so I cango and have them put on a shock dyno send them to me and I'll give you a copy of the shock dyno charts I get when I send the dampers back.

As I've posted before Koni's do very well undera narow range of conditions and for a track car or a high-performance road car will be a great option as long as the driver canaccept the additonal ride harshness and potential mismatch in compression damping for hiscombination. For the most part I aggree that Koni'sare a goodchoice as long as that driver isfocused on road racing, soloand autoX events. Long tours, rough roadsand drag racing have very different needs in terms of damping traits and Koni Sports simply cannot meet these needs as well as a D-Spec damper does. You will never get a car with Koni Sportsto transfer weight on the drag strip as quickly as a D-Specequiped S197 all other things being equal, you will never get a Koni Sport equipedS197 to ride as softly as a D-spec equiped S197. So as any one cansee you canjust as easily be boxed in with the Koni Sports if you happen to want to run at the drag strip or needa softtouring quality ride, it's no different. It's just the nature of the different valving systems and the reasonfor the existance of 2,3,4 and 6-way dampers. Given a choice IMO and experience on the street more people are willing to trade some finetrack control forpotentially better ride and a wider range of acceptable use. Sure you can buy better drag dampers, QA1 makes some nice strutsand the Koni Sports IMO make a better low-end road racing damperbut the D-Specs can and doperformas well as the dedicated road or drag strip dampers just look at the people using them onroad courses and drag strips. If winning racesis the measure of success then D-Specs are doing a lot more than just being the best bang for the buck dampers out there they are killing Koni at the moment.As you can see I don't disagree with your assessment that Koni makesthe better road racingusedampers but this is a bit narrower thanmost people are willing touse their cars.

HTH!

Here's where we differ.... For some reason you seem to think that Koni's are very limited in their use because you say things like "Koni's do very well undera narow range of conditions and for a track car or a high-performance road car will be a great option as long as the driver canaccept the additonal ride harshness and potential mismatch in compression damping for hiscombination".

I completely disagree with that assessment, and think you'd be hard pressed to find folks who've had Koni's and dislike them under most any condition. The man who wrote the note that started this thread is not a racer, and was very clear to me about that. He lives in Michigan in the Detroit area, and didn't like how the car drove on the roads in and around his area. He's not out there autoxing against me for National Championships. I can't think of a better example to show anyone that the Koni's aren't just able to deal with a narrow range of conditions.

I could come up with more, up to and including quotes from magazines. As a matter of fact, here's a quote from GMHTP last year regarding a suspension I did for the Editor's car:

"It is important that you know the environment in which these components were street tested. I live in New York City, which has by far the worst roads in the U.S. One- to three-foot-deep potholes, ruts several inches deep, road hazards galore, and expansion joints that'll shock a suspension like a land mine. I travel through Queens, Manhattan, The Bronx, and New Jersey daily. (Statewide, New Jersey was recently voted as having the worst overall road system for the eighth year straight.) So, if this suspension has any weakness, I'd find it.
Right after the hard parts went in, I jumped in the Z and followed Sam Strano's SCCA champ '01 Camaro through the twisty roads outside Brookville, Pennsylvania. Immediately, I noticed that the floatiness was gone, and heavy steering input didn't mean eventual understeer, it meant that the car was going where you pointed it. It was already a night-and-day difference. However, it wasn't until the alignment was done that everything came together.
I am, quite simply, blown away by the Z28's new suspension. If I could distill everything I feel in one sentence, it would go like this: Everything dull and soft is now sharp and firm. Strano has balanced his spring rates and bar sizes to provide sick handling on the track, and verylivable manners on the road. The single-adjustable Konis are so spectacular I don't know where to start. Though Strano's shock settings, the larger 17-inch rims, and thinner sidewall made my NYC commute a touch rough with the terrible roads, this combo was perfect during a road trip on Pennsylvania's interstates. I took on- and off-ramps at ridiculous speeds, and I found myself carrying big speed into and out of 180-degree on-ramps, easily pulling away from high-dollar imports that were trying to keep up but couldn't. Two adjustments have been made. One was a clunk in the back that revealed itself as a loose nut on a rear shock mount; that was a quick fix. When I told Strano that the ride was a bit rough, he recommended that I drop the street tire pressure from the 34 front/32 rear from track testing to 30 all the way around.
I did, and it softened up NYC's bumps for me. So trust me-if it's OK for New York, it will be fine for your driver. All in all, I couldn't be happier with the mods we made to this Camaro."

Now, that's a Camaro.... but a Camaro with Koni's installed. What's more because the car was setup to also go to a track day, I didn't use softer springs, or softer shock settings like I could have. I put in the specs I use for autox duty, and yet you still read things like "very liveable, coudn't be happier, softened up NYC's bumps for me" and so on.

And I've stated it before, and I'll do it again. If anyone is in my neck of the woods, stop by. I'll happily take you for a ride in my car on Koni's, on out PA roads (which aren't exactly pristine) and you can judge for yourself if the shocks are only good in a narrow range.

The fact is D-specs have more "range" because they try to be everything to everyone.But range that's far too soft to control things isn't useful to me. Koni isn't trying to be everything to everyone. They know that control is what shocks are about. And fwiw you also seem to intimate that Koni's range is small. It's not. Koni's rebound range, at minimum traverse from full soft to +100% damping, and in some cases can add up to 400% more rebound control over full soft. If anyone doubts how much rebound range exists in Koni's, find someone with some and get them to take you for a ride with the shocks set full soft than full firm... you won't doubt the range of adjustment any longer.

And FWIW, QA1's are crap as far as I'm concerned. They have a POS adjuster, that doesn't even effect the piston, just a bypass to the outer oil chamber. They aren't even gas-charged dampers, and why not, even the stock stuff has a nitrogen charge to keep oil foaming and shock fade down.

I wouldn't give you a nickel for QA1 dampers. And I'm not anti-QA1... they make some really good rod-ends. :)

Hello everyone! Sam does not have to defend himself nor does anyone else.... as a sponsor he is allowed to post anything he wants in relation to advertising and which products he recommends for any application. (including his opinion-members can post opinions too!). What I do not understand is how this turned ugly and a "I know more about suspensions than you do" type of thread. Debating a fact based point is one thing but lets keep it just as that....debating opinions is hard as they are another persons perception of what they know about that debate and if their opinion is fact based and proven or not. I personally know nothing about suspensions and have looked to him for his "opinion" based on the fact that he stocks both brands and has used both himself. I also think his track record helps prove that. Keep it as a debate and lets not get this locked! J S197 section moderator

Awww. Just another day in the Handling Section http://www.buckeyestangs.com/vb/images/smilies/popcorn_1.gif

Hey...... where did you get that lil' popcorn muncher GIF?

I WANT ONE TOO http://www.buckeyestangs.com/vb/images/smilies/popcorn_1.gif

Jazzer and raging jealousy [:o]

ORIGINAL: Sam Strano
Here's where we differ.... For some reason you seem to think that Koni's are very limited in their use because you say things like "Koni's do very well undera narow range of conditions and for a track car or a high-performance road car will be a great option as long as the driver canaccept the additonal ride harshness and potential mismatch in compression damping for hiscombination".

I completely disagree with that assessment, and think you'd be hard pressed to find folks who've had Koni's and dislike them under most any condition. The man who wrote the note that started this thread is not a racer, and was very clear to me about that. He lives in Michigan in the Detroit area, and didn't like how the car drove on the roads in and around his area. He's not out there autoxing against me for National Championships. I can't think of a better example to show anyone that the Koni's aren't just able to deal with a narrow range of conditions.

I could come up with more, up to and including quotes from magazines. As a matter of fact, here's a quote from GMHTP last year regarding a suspension I did for the Editor's car:

"It is important that you know the environment in which these components were street tested. I live in New York City, which has by far the worst roads in the U.S. One- to three-foot-deep potholes, ruts several inches deep, road hazards galore, and expansion joints that'll shock a suspension like a land mine. I travel through Queens, Manhattan, The Bronx, and New Jersey daily. (Statewide, New Jersey was recently voted as having the worst overall road system for the eighth year straight.) So, if this suspension has any weakness, I'd find it.
Right after the hard parts went in, I jumped in the Z and followed Sam Strano's SCCA champ '01 Camaro through the twisty roads outside Brookville, Pennsylvania. Immediately, I noticed that the floatiness was gone, and heavy steering input didn't mean eventual understeer, it meant that the car was going where you pointed it. It was already a night-and-day difference. However, it wasn't until the alignment was done that everything came together.
I am, quite simply, blown away by the Z28's new suspension. If I could distill everything I feel in one sentence, it would go like this: Everything dull and soft is now sharp and firm. Strano has balanced his spring rates and bar sizes to provide sick handling on the track, and verylivable manners on the road. The single-adjustable Konis are so spectacular I don't know where to start. Though Strano's shock settings, the larger 17-inch rims, and thinner sidewall made my NYC commute a touch rough with the terrible roads, this combo was perfect during a road trip on Pennsylvania's interstates. I took on- and off-ramps at ridiculous speeds, and I found myself carrying big speed into and out of 180-degree on-ramps, easily pulling away from high-dollar imports that were trying to keep up but couldn't. Two adjustments have been made. One was a clunk in the back that revealed itself as a loose nut on a rear shock mount; that was a quick fix. When I told Strano that the ride was a bit rough, he recommended that I drop the street tire pressure from the 34 front/32 rear from track testing to 30 all the way around.
I did, and it softened up NYC's bumps for me. So trust me-if it's OK for New York, it will be fine for your driver. All in all, I couldn't be happier with the mods we made to this Camaro."

Now, that's a Camaro.... but a Camaro with Koni's installed. What's more because the car was setup to also go to a track day, I didn't use softer springs, or softer shock settings like I could have. I put in the specs I use for autox duty, and yet you still read things like "very liveable, coudn't be happier, softened up NYC's bumps for me" and so on.

And I've stated it before, and I'll do it again. If anyone is in my neck of the woods, stop by. I'll happily take you for a ride in my car on Koni's, on out PA roads (which aren't exactly pristine) and you can judge for yourself if the shocks are only good in a narrow range.

The fact is D-specs have more "range" because they try to be everything to everyone.But range that's far too soft to control things isn't useful to me. Koni isn't trying to be everything to everyone. They know that control is what shocks are about. And fwiw you also seem to intimate that Koni's range is small. It's not. Koni's rebound range, at minimum traverse from full soft to +100% damping, and in some cases can add up to 400% more rebound control over full soft. If anyone doubts how much rebound range exists in Koni's, find someone with some and get them to take you for a ride with the shocks set full soft than full firm... you won't doubt the range of adjustment any longer.


Hi Sam,

So would you suggest a set of Koni Sports to an S197GT owner who like to go drag racing with his buddies and hisfirmly non-racing interestedwife/girlfriend and has lightweight wheels and slicks and likes to drive his car out tovarious regional drag strips for weekend events? In your opinionareKoni Sports the better choice for him thana set of D-Specs? This is also his daily driver and hetakesit to work on the streets because that's all there are for his 20 mile drive into town and theroad conditions are notvery good living in the snow belt as he does.

What about the guy who has a long daily commute and car pools with aco-worker 60+ miles one-way as is common here in the greater L.A. area and likes to hit the driving schools in the area and says comfort is his main worry ashe wants to have a comfy ride for his daily 120 mile freeway slog but also would like toimprove body control still on his stock springs and bars due torideand noiseconcerns on his stock 17" wheels and tires?

What about a guy who is happy to experience life a 1/4 mile at a time all weekend long on a blower motor with slicks and a stripped interior? Are Koni Sports the best option for him too?

IMOwhich is based ontwo S197GT's with Koni Sports I installed withSteeda springsthese are great dampers for aserious high-performance streetand weekend track toy. Not surprisingly theSteeda Comp springs rodefirmer than the Ultralites. But ineither case IMO they won't make for agreat long distance cruising setup with the wife through the wine country. Now if we were talking about a solo blast uproute 1 here fromL.A.to NorCal for the weekend I'm all for it butas anybody will tell you I have the hardest bottom on the planet and will run route 1 all the way to The City in a single sitting breaking only to feed the pony.FYI that is a 10 hour run at afast pace andon more than one occassion I've turned around and flowndown I-5 in less than 5 hours from Marin to L.A.. But that's just my way of getting enough seat time to have a good weekend of driving.

HTH!

Ok... you win. D-specs rock and are the answer to all ills. No, on second thought you don't win. I never said D-specs are bad, only that I prefer the Koni's and then backed it up with an opinion of someone who specifically is NOT a hard-core kind of guy who drives on greater Detroit area roads.

I sell D-specs, I sell Koni. I have a preference after running both. As for the "drag race guy", I'd probably put him on D-specs... but mostly because the fact the compression gets stiffer in the back with adjustment can help tune out wheelhop. Not because they get a ton softer on rebound, because the Koni's can get plenty soft. And anyone really hardcore on dragging will unhook the massive front bar for better weight transfer, but at that point I don't want a shock that has no damping because the car will get really scary on the top end that way. And, fwiw I thought this was the handling section. You don't see me trying to push these as drag shocks. Although I've had cars 60's better on Koni's than on true drag shocks (QA1 and Afco's).....

Have a great Memorial Day weekend. I'm goin' racing.

On second thought, this post had no value.

I think like a lot of other subjects, this one is most open to personal preference or interpertation based on personal experience. What one may think is a "reasonable" ride quality, another may say it's horrible. It's pretty obvious that some guy that switches from his stock suspension to Koni's (especially in a Z28) is going to think "wow!!!, and think the guy who sold them to him is a hero. What does he know from shocks or suspension? Interesting thing is, his only reference to "ride quality" is:
When I told Strano that the ride was a bit rough, he recommended that I drop the street tire pressure from the 34 front/32 rear from track testing to 30 all the way around.
I did, and it softened up NYC's bumps for me. So trust me-if it's OK for New York, it will be fine for your driver. All in all, I couldn't be happier with the mods we made to this Camaro."
IMO, Z28's are already some of the worst riding, buckboard handling cars I've ever been in in stock form. I don't imagine the ride got any rougher with the Konis, and I like the solution. Lower the tire pressure?? How about make the suspension right. It's clear that the Koni's provided an impressive improvemenet, but F1's point is clearly made here, and mine. It's Sam's customer's personal opinion based on his own personal experience.
ON the other hand, I can't stand a "soft" ride, and welcome the firmness of something like a Koni. That's my "preference", and my "liking", and I could sell someone on that, based on the reasons I like it. Some threads can be completely technical based on pure results. I don't think this is one of them.
Just my .02

ORIGINAL: houstonnw


ORIGINAL: F1Fan

What about a guy who is happy to experience life a 1/4 mile at a time all weekend long on a blower motor with slicks and a stripped interior? Are Koni Sports the best option for him too?



How does that Watt's Link that you are so fond of work on the dragstrip?

Be careful attacking another poster/vendor. Wait, are you just a regular poster or are you actually a Steeda vendor? Your posts would suggest the latter.

JMHO
...said the pot to the kettle...
Nice contribuion tothe thread. Guess you didn't read the Mod's little note?

Another unneeded post.

Steelcomp and I don't have any issues after all.

Point taken steelcomp....... just checking in on the debate.... later everyone J;)

I need to briefly address some things stated or implied in the last few posts.

First, I do have a Steeda account. Not that I should have to prove it to anyone. You can call Don Cook and ask if he's ever processed any orders for me.

As for the crack about Z28's and my not fixing the suspension. Well I did. A suspension can't make up for tire pressures that are too high and beingused in a situation that does not warrant it. The first thing that reacts to bumps is the tire,and find it a bit sad that it was easier to try and attack me by claiming I messed up when in reality the tires are also part of the way a suspension works.

To recap:Though I'm avendor, I shouldn't have had the temerity to post findings by acustomer who actually back to backcompared two items that folks want to know about. When I did, 14 other little "what if's"ensuetry and say that he and Iare wrong forpreferring the Koni's over the almight D-spec. Meanwhile I've not cut downD-specs, just because I don't thinktwo things are the same doesn't meanone is automatically crap. I also have gone out of my way to point out that not only do IsellD-specs, but I did use them myself....In fact I won Nationalsand was #1 Pax on them last year. But then I'm arrogant because I show how results so folksknow I'm some other drooling idiot with a keyboard.Then Ihad the balls to ask who I was speaking to, or rather, discussing things with... and never got an answer other thanwhat amounts to"someonewho's smart".

The world has room foropinions.It's clear that some thinkD-specs are a better answer, and some think Koni's are.I tend to prefer Koni's, and when we don't get way off tangent and start talking aboutdragracing in thehandling section I stand by that, just like I wouldn't recommend EibachDrag springs to anyone here, butwell might in a drag raceoriented forum.

I inviteanyone who'd like to know what I think and why to call me up. I don't bite. I also don't claim to have all the answers, but I have a lot of good, practical, proven knowledge thatI don'thide.You don't haveto agree with me, I don't have to agree with you. I'm here to make a living, and I won't spend hours on the phone for free passing alongeverything I know to just anyone. However, I also don't keepsecrets and believe that information is agreat way to sell part and supportcustomers. In other words, don't think I'm ok with you calling, picking my brain andthen arguing with me. I'm not. If you want tocall with an open mind and discuss options for setup, that's fine and you can judge when we are done if you think I'm nuts or not. Nothing more, nothing less.

So with my car I don't race at all, I just drive to work and back but would like a better ride and a better handling car when I do punch it.;) I also would like to mention that I live down about 2 miles of a VERY VERY rough dirt road (ugh) right now and the stock suspension beats me and the car to death.

I'm guessing both D-specs and Koni would help a lot in my case, but after reading this thread I'm starting to lean towards Koni. They sound really nice and have a long history from what I understand.

So I'd like to ask Sam if Koni would be right for me? Sound like they would be. Also what else would I need for the suspension? I was thinking Steeda Sport Springs too. I figure I'd also need a few other compnents too and I really like Steeda.

Thanks.

SirKnightTG......PM sent....oh and just give Sam a call at the number listed in his sig;)

Very rough dirt roads aren't what the car is meant to do, and isn't really want any of the aftermarket handling items are meant to deal with either. There is a reason that off-road trucks are very tall and soft and outright race cars are very low and pretty stiff.

What I'd recommend is this: Keep the stock springs, you'll want the longer travel and softer rate. Do the shocks, but not because it will make a rough dirt road a lot better, but because it will help the car on the pavement.

As for Koni vs. D-spec.... Koni has the better warranty record, if needed... and under those conditions, that just might be necessary.

What happened to the previous posts?

Oh and Steelcomp I rec'd your PM and repiled but failed to mention that I have not removed any of your posts after I realized it was houston's that I deleted and NOT yours. The site has had issues for the past week and ADMIN is fixing it as we speak. I too have lost posts and threads. It has affected the whole site not just you and certain days you may have posted. I have nothing against you[sm=icon_cheers.gif].... J

ORIGINAL: mygt500

Oh and Steelcomp I rec'd your PM and repiled but failed to mention that I have not removed any of your posts after I realized it was houston's that I deleted and NOT yours. The site has had issues for the past week and ADMIN is fixing it as we speak. I too have lost posts and threads. It has affected the whole site not just you and certain days you may have posted. I have nothing against you[sm=icon_cheers.gif].... J
Cheers!

ORIGINAL: mygt500

Hello everyone! Sam does not have to defend himself nor does anyone else.... as a sponsor he is allowed to post anything he wants in relation to advertising and which products he recommends for any application. (including his opinion-members can post opinions too!). What I do not understand is how this turned ugly and a "I know more about suspensions than you do" type of thread. Debating a fact based point is one thing but lets keep it just as that....debating opinions is hard as they are another persons perception of what they know about that debate and if their opinion is fact based and proven or not. I personally know nothing about suspensions and have looked to him for his "opinion" based on the fact that he stocks both brands and has used both himself. I also think his track record helps prove that. Keep it as a debate and lets not get this locked! J S197 section moderator


Well now I am confused....... I have seen other threads that have had posts deleted for way less than what I have seen on the first page alone. ASS FAG **** CRAP and alot of other name calling and yet you will kill a post that has words like confederate?

What gives Mod? I would hope you would be fair to all.

To clarify for others, I am not a bitter poster who has had a post deleted, in fact the only one I have had removed was because it contained the qoutes of the guys being deleted. I just want to know why some forums are rated G when others can border R. I for one say let them all be R rated. LOL J/K

ORIGINAL: Sam Strano

Very rough dirt roads aren't what the car is meant to do, and isn't really want any of the aftermarket handling items are meant to deal with either. There is a reason that off-road trucks are very tall and soft and outright race cars are very low and pretty stiff.

What I'd recommend is this: Keep the stock springs, you'll want the longer travel and softer rate. Do the shocks, but not because it will make a rough dirt road a lot better, but because it will help the car on the pavement.

As for Koni vs. D-spec.... Koni has the better warranty record, if needed... and under those conditions, that just might be necessary.



True it's not an off-road car, but the thing is my old '95 V6 mustang handled this road MUCH better and I drove that thing for years. It's not a very hard and bumpy ride in that car down this road, but this new S197 is a different story. It's like riding a bucking horse. So there's DEFINITELY something going on suspension wise that makes my old car handle it and new one not. I guess I just need to experiment around and see what works.

Of course, I'm not planning on living out here forever. I am looking to move closer to where I work where I'll finally have a REAL driveway and no more off road. But this may be another year or two.

For the record, I've finally received the dyno graphs I've been waiting for comparing the D-specs to the Koni's. Because the information is proprietary, I'm not at liberty to share the actual curves (though anyone interested could dyno both dampers themselves). However, I now have some tangible proof of the differences.

For the record the D-spec fronts cover a lot more range than the Koni's do. The Koni rears cover a much larger range than the D-specs do. An interesting part of the curves is seeing the actual damping curve. D-specs are largely progressive in lower settings and become a bit digressive in higher settings, but there certain settings that range kind of kink around (which is just damper inconsistency) and go progressive then digressive but the settings on either side do not.

In the end they confirm what I had felt. The Koni's have more low speed damping force and change in rebound with adjustments than the D-specs.D-specscover more range in front, less in the back (a lot less), and because thechanges are more high piston speed biased I can see why I prefer the Koni feel. I want a car that generatesroll more slowly and doesn't make myteeth crack. TheD-specs will give you a low-piston speed change, but itbegets a lot more change as the piston speed rise. Translation, to get the roll and pitch rates similar you end up with more high speed damping in the D-specs than with the Koni's. And that my friends is whyI changed my car, and why the customerwho I quoted (his name is Bob K..... and he is on this forum)preferKoni's. Better low speed control while not beingquite as harsh on the high-speed end.

Simply comes down to how the two companies choose to do their forces and curves.

D-specs could be a lot worse and I will continue to carry them as I feel they are good value, even ifI donot think they arethe best damper.

I think i just ended the decision process on which dampers i wanted. I am going to go with the konis.. once i uhh get some cash.