RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 4/22/2008 6:49:16 PM
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GT Bob
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Seriously guys... I see this on every stinking forum I go to. People moan and complain that companies don't understand what they want for their cars, or that they are just in it for the money and they don't care about our community... And without Fail, every time a guy like Sam comes along and not only tries to provide what the community wants but tries to be an active participant in it, they get flamed as soon as they mention the fact that a part they like and run themselves is one they sell. For god sakes guys, He owns a mustang himself... with his availablity of parts, I hafta think he's tried about every combo known to man, and then some..
I think Sam has contributed a great amount to the handling forum and posts like this one are only to show that his customers agree with him. Personally, when I have the money set aside to address my handling issues, Sam will be getting my money without question. Guys like Sam are the real deal and are the one's you should be taking a lead from, not the "Internet Hero's" who autocrossed once with his Mom's Acura SUV and moans and flames when Sam posts info counter to his.
It's crap like this that make manufactures lurkers on car forums, and not active members...
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/9/2008 8:14:33 AM
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doc stang
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newbie, here,
just my 0.02 worth,
i do not yet know a lot about suspension and handling, but am trying to learn as much as i can before i make any purchases,
i was/am strongly considering d-specs, but this thread has me now considering the koni's strongly as well,
i need to learn more about : adjusting the rebound only (a la koni) vs coupling (single) adjustability ( a la d-specs) of both simultaneously.
to that effect, i am going to give sam a call,
partly because of his horn tooting,
partly because of his wins,
partly because of he seems to deal with things in a forthright manner, (at least by his described examples)
partly because a lot of folks here seem to really respect his opinion, and, lastly . . .
partly to reward his advertising effort, (at least with some traffic, and potentially some business)
yes the o.p. was partially self serving,
yes it was to report an observation from someone who has tried both, ( as i doubt many people have had that oppotunity)
like rodeoflyer said, . . . [u][b]I am Joe Schmoe ( not to say sam's customer is)
and i don't yet understand all the jargon, so hearing it in less technical terms is somewhat valuable,
knowing what else is on the car ( i realize there is a partial list) wouuld help paint a fuller picture.
i see nothing wrong with the post,
it did seem to spiral out in left field,
i certainly do value teh opinions of vendor's and shops whos hands and butts are in it, rather than just selling stuff.
fwiw, (which probably aint much)
doc
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/9/2008 9:10:33 AM
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Norm Peterson
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I can maybe help with some of this.
About bump damping - it works with the spring in resisting wheel upward movement over bumps, and for any given car there's some sort of limit to how much force this travel should be resisted with. It's not supposed to be a major player in controlling roll, just provide enough control of the upward wheel travel so it won't overshoot and enough to avoid allowing the car to "jack down" over rough surfaces.
Ride-wise, it's obvious that too much bump will simply ride harder all the time. Way too much bump will make the tires go airborne over bumps (read: zero grip in any direction). Performance-wise, too much total force means that at least that wheel is not contributing as much cornering force as it could be. And the combination of too much force on the rise of a bump followed by going light down the backside = greater tire force variation, which equals overall less grip as you travel that distance. Tire are not "constant coefficient of friction" devices; grip increases more slowly than downward load is applied. Particularly up front in a front-heavy RWD car, that's not the hot tip for getting the thing to maintain front grip.
I'll stick my neck out a little and suggest that D-specs might tend to work slightly better with springs toward the "soft" end of the range of readily available springs, and that Konis might be better with the heavier springs.
Norm
< Message edited by Norm Peterson -- 5/9/2008 9:21:37 AM >
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/9/2008 2:38:01 PM
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doc stang
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson
I can maybe help with some of this.
. . . I'll stick my neck out a little and suggest that D-specs might tend to work slightly better with springs toward the "soft" end of the range of readily available springs, and that Konis might be better with the heavier springs.
Norm
so when you say heavier springs favor the koni's, is that to say PROGRESSIVE RATE springs?
and the "lighter" springs to go with tok.'s means LINEAR?
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EBC yellow, Quantum ducts, Goodridge S.S. lines, Motul RBF600
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TurboHorsePower TWIN 57's, on the shelf
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/9/2008 6:08:37 PM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson
I can maybe help with some of this.
About bump damping - it works with the spring in resisting wheel upward movement over bumps, and for any given car there's some sort of limit to how much force this travel should be resisted with. It's not supposed to be a major player in controlling roll, just provide enough control of the upward wheel travel so it won't overshoot and enough to avoid allowing the car to "jack down" over rough surfaces.
Ride-wise, it's obvious that too much bump will simply ride harder all the time. Way too much bump will make the tires go airborne over bumps (read: zero grip in any direction). Performance-wise, too much total force means that at least that wheel is not contributing as much cornering force as it could be. And the combination of too much force on the rise of a bump followed by going light down the backside = greater tire force variation, which equals overall less grip as you travel that distance. Tire are not "constant coefficient of friction" devices; grip increases more slowly than downward load is applied. Particularly up front in a front-heavy RWD car, that's not the hot tip for getting the thing to maintain front grip.
I'll stick my neck out a little and suggest that D-specs might tend to work slightly better with springs toward the "soft" end of the range of readily available springs, and that Konis might be better with the heavier springs.
Norm
Hi Norm!
The way we used to change the damping rates on the Porsche (and BMW and VW) race cars we worked on was generally that as spring rates got higher (all else being equal, sprung and unsprung mass) the bump damping rate got softer and the rebound damping rate got higher. This was pretty easy to achive because all you had to do was tweak the external rebound or bump adjusters on the dampers and send the car back out. Relatively speaking in effect the Koni Sport dampers are doing this exact same thing and it works pretty well as long as the inital bump rate is reasonably well selected and the project car's specs is not too far off in terms of sprung and unsprung mass as selected by Koni. That said if you don't like what comprssion valving Koni has selected for you you can easily change the bump and/or rebound damping range for a small fee by sending the dampers to Koni's racing service department, talking to an engineer and describing where you want to go with the re-valve. We used to do this all the time early in the development of cars with single adjustable dampers and for street cars without the budget for Koni D/A dampers.
As to the D-Specs working better with softer springs this has not been my experience. I've been playing with springs, spring rates, ride heights damping, camber, toe and bumpsteer settings for a few months with the Steeda Adjustable Suspension setup on my car. I have put everything from a 165lb. spring to 250lb. spring in front and 165lb. to 200lb. spring on the rear of my car and the D-Specs have worked very well if not perfectly with all of them. I have also had the most amazing ride quality out of them for a given spring rate and have also tried some very different wheel and tire setups and found that the D-Specs work well with a VERY wide range of spring rates and wheel/tire weight combinations too. I have not seen any reason to go to a higher spring rate for a street car and even if this were a dedicated track car assumming it was stripped for weight I could not see going to more than a 375-450lb. front spring or more than 225lb.-250lb. at the rear, it's just not necessary. If I was going to build a serious racecar for the street I would skip the Tokicos and go with Konis not because of any issues on the part of the D-Spec dampers but for the depth of services Koni's racing services shop has to offer and the ease of access to that technical tallent pool. Of course I would not bother to buy the Koni Sport dampers either. I would skip right past them and build up a set of Koni Race double adjustable inverted coilover struts and Koni Race double adjustable coilovers for the rear and save all the fuss of going back and forth to Koni racing services to revalve the dampers looking for what will work right for the car with a single adjustable Koni Sport damper everytime I made a change to the car that changed the sprung and/or unspring weights of the car.
HTH!
<< EDIT: OBTW all of the springs we use to use on Porsche, BMW and VW race cars were straight rate springs as were the springs I have been playing with on my own car's Steeda coilovers. >>
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 5/19/2008 10:07:45 AM >
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/9/2008 6:39:57 PM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doc stang
quote:
ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson
I can maybe help with some of this.
. . . I'll stick my neck out a little and suggest that D-specs might tend to work slightly better with springs toward the "soft" end of the range of readily available springs, and that Konis might be better with the heavier springs.
Norm
so when you say heavier springs favor the koni's, is that to say PROGRESSIVE RATE springs?
and the "lighter" springs to go with tok.'s means LINEAR?
Hi doc stang,
Progressive rate springs are a marketing hype thing. In reality all of the so called progressive rate springs are hit or miss for production vehicles. If you find a set that works well on one car the next set frequently don't work on the next car due to weight differences between the cars and the way the springs got made that day. The progressive spring rate feature of the popular sport springs are not really so much progressive once the car is on the ground. The springs are wound with coils closer to each other on one end and farther apart on the other end of the spring. Once the spring is installed much of that softer rate is used up by simply installing the spring to keep pressure on the spring seats so the spring can't come out of the seats. The rest of the soft coils are used up as the car is lowered onto the spring and they take up the weight of the car. Once the car is being fully supportd by the springs if you stick your head under the car you will see that the softer coils are pretty much in spring bind and acting as a solid at this point. In other words almost all of the softer coils are no longer actively supporting the car and the stiffer part of the spring is doing most of the work now. There is a very fine balance between the softer coils and the firmer coils and which are active depend entirely on the weight being loaded on the spring which can vary by hundreds of pounds even on the same model due to the stuff people thinkthey need in their cars these days.
What I have found with Eibach Pro-Kit springs accross many different applications was the springs were too low and allowed the car to bottom out too often. Well gee, isn't this exactly what the progressive rate spring design was supposed to prevent in the first place? Well yes that was the idea anyway and what the marketing geeks keep pumping out in print and on their websites. What was happening here in the real world though was the heel of the spring rate curve was well past the point where the increased spring rate could act to prevent or reduce bottoming out because the car was already staring to bottom before the increased spring rate could take effect. I've seen this many times with many different brands of progressive spring and I just was not going to put up with it or try to find a progressive rate spring design that was designed to work properly on my car. Hence the Steeda coilovers even though I swore I was not going to go this route again on a street car and certainly not on this car my daily driver. Oh well such is the state of the art in street suspension these days. If you really want it done right you still really have to do it yourself OR hire someone like Sam or find a local guy who has similar setup expertise. Of course you could just ask me and I'll tell you what I found and I don't charge you a thing unless you want to come over and use my garage and tools. Then you just have to bring over a couple of cases of beer to keep the garage gods happy.
HTH!
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/10/2008 5:08:43 AM
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Norm Peterson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doc stang
so when you say heavier springs favor the koni's, is that to say PROGRESSIVE RATE springs?
and the "lighter" springs to go with tok.'s means LINEAR?
No. When I use terms like "lighter" or "heavier" with respect to springs, it's just synonyms for "softer" or "stiffer", respectively. I'm only looking at the spring rate at that point. Sorry.
FWIW, I'm not crazy about progressive rate springs either. To me they're useful as devices for improving the ride for mild to moderate drivers for whom handling = I can turn the car into the parking space easily (yay!). And it's a gimmick to let people lower their cars without sacrificing all of the ride quality. A band-aid, if you will. My opinion, of course.
Chip has described much better the point that I was trying to make. As you increase the shock setting to "match" a stiffer spring, the D-specs are theoretically going the wrong way with their bump damping, while the Konis are at least remaining constant on the 'bump' side of things. Hence it appears to me that as you select stiffer springs the Konis increasingly become the better choice. Assuming that their bump damping choice suits you, that is.
This bump damping issue isn't a pass-fail thing in a street car, BTW, just one of the little percentage things that win races or auto-X's for you once you get serious. A sensitive driver might notice a difference in the ride (noting here that some folks don't even notice the difference in ride firmness when you replace totally dead shocks with new ones). The increase in bump damping in the D-specs may not even be very much. (I'd really like to see some shock plots, hint, hint . . . Chip?).
Norm
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/19/2008 10:51:47 AM
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F1Fan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson
quote:
ORIGINAL: doc stang
so when you say heavier springs favor the koni's, is that to say PROGRESSIVE RATE springs?
and the "lighter" springs to go with tok.'s means LINEAR?
No. When I use terms like "lighter" or "heavier" with respect to springs, it's just synonyms for "softer" or "stiffer", respectively. I'm only looking at the spring rate at that point. Sorry.
FWIW, I'm not crazy about progressive rate springs either. To me they're useful as devices for improving the ride for mild to moderate drivers for whom handling = I can turn the car into the parking space easily (yay!). And it's a gimmick to let people lower their cars without sacrificing all of the ride quality. A band-aid, if you will. My opinion, of course.
Chip has described much better the point that I was trying to make. As you increase the shock setting to "match" a stiffer spring, the D-specs are theoretically going the wrong way with their bump damping, while the Konis are at least remaining constant on the 'bump' side of things. Hence it appears to me that as you select stiffer springs the Konis increasingly become the better choice. Assuming that their bump damping choice suits you, that is.
This bump damping issue isn't a pass-fail thing in a street car, BTW, just one of the little percentage things that win races or auto-X's for you once you get serious. A sensitive driver might notice a difference in the ride (noting here that some folks don't even notice the difference in ride firmness when you replace totally dead shocks with new ones). The increase in bump damping in the D-specs may not even be very much. (I'd really like to see some shock plots, hint, hint . . . Chip?).
Norm
Hi Norm,
There used to be some D-Spec charts on the web but I don't now where they are any more. As I recall the bump damping changes are fairly small and amount to no more than maybe 20% or so the the total working bump compression rate at the fully firm setting for a given piston velocity. This is in strong contrast to the rebound adjustability range which I recall being really wide somwhere about 200% with sharply increasing damping rates at slower piston velocities as the rebound damping increased. Somewhere around the lower 1/3? or so of the damping range the damping curves go flat or linear for both bump and rebound damping rates. I think this is why the D-Specs ride well when set at their lower settings and yet when turned up control increases so much more quicky than ride degrades. I also think this is why they work so well with linear rate springs, the damping rates and the ratio between bump and rebound rates are were well selected for the car so you can have a pretty nice ride and still achive a high level of transitional control even at lower settings. It's weird to me but it works well enough. I think that on th smoothest pavement the type of valve Tokico used is not as refined or as responsive as the valves used in the Koni Sport dampers. I think the D-Spec valving is more rugged compared to the Koni Sport's valve metering system as we used to get a lot of blown Koni Sport dampers back from the VW rally racers. Of course as I recall they were using the Koni FIA stuts and rear dampers but AFAIK Koni has always used the same basic valve metering system in all of the top adjusted single adjustable dampers.
HTH!
<< EDITED for clarity >>
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 5/19/2008 1:02:52 PM >
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/19/2008 11:26:26 AM
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Sam Strano
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The "chart" of the D-specs is available on Tokico's website... but it's a generic chart that just gives an idea of what's up. Does not tell you what car they are for, or if they are fronts or rears. Basically it's a very, very generic example. And it's here, right on Tokico's site: http://www.hitachi-hap-la.com/TokicoGasShocks/products/dspec/
As for which is more durable. I have way, way better luck with Koni's than Tokico's where durability is involved. While F1Fan might have seen a lot of blown VW units, Rally is not what they are intended, or designed for. All I know is that so far I've had 3 blown D-specs and no blown Koni's. Doesn't mean that breaking one can't happen but over the years in my experience, regardless of the car, Koni's don't have as many issues in comparison. What's more is that there are at least 3 different "Sytles" of Koni single adjustables, and they are not all the same. They adjust in different ways. Some you have to compress fully to adjust, some you extend fully to adjust. And then some use the knob, like the S197's do. They are not all the same mechanism.
I'm on record as stating the D-specs are a big improvement over previous Tokico's and I'm not anti-D-Spec. While the bump doesn't make the same kind of increases as the rebound, it shouldn't. There is generally about 2/3rds more rebound in a typical shock as there is compression damping, and if the D-Specs increased the compression in an equal amount vs. an equal ratio, that'd be big trouble. But as it stands, compression damping and rebound damping do different jobs. I just feel that compression damping need to be right, and critically damped. Not overdamped. The compression job is to control the movement of the unsprung weight. It does not deal with how the car takes a set, or how it generates roll or pitch. Those are rebound items. If you get too little compression that's bad as the tire bounces like a basketball. Too much and the ride becomes too harsh. The issue I have with the D-Specs, and the biggest reason that I personally changed and recommend Koni's is that you can't have one without the other. And I've been boxed by that system of adjustment. There have been times I wanted more rebound control in the car, but getting it meant the accompanying increase on compression, which on not perfect roads makes for a more "heavy footed" response to impacts. Sure, we can turn the shocks down and make that better... but then you soften rebound damping and that in turn makes the car generate roll and pitch more quickly, and in extreme instances might cause enough drop to not deal with the spring rate well enough.
What started this thread was my posting of a customer's findings (not my own). Remember the car is on a set of Steeda springs. The man had both D-specs and the Koni's and his findings illustrate the phenomena I'm talking about above with regards to compression vs. rebound. He called me complaining the car didn't deal with bumps well. While he could turn the shocks softer and it helped, the car then felt too vague. This was a classic case of wanting to adjust rebound alone.... which is how we ended up getting him Koni's. The only change he made this time around was the dampers. He asked about changing springs, but I told him to wait, as I knew the Koni change would have a good effect. I didn't know if it'd be perfect for him or not, that was something we had to find out (and a reason I recommend incremental changes and not massive ones). I should also note that our first conversation revolved around what settings he was using in D-Specs. The second was a report on different settings and his findings. Only then did we make the decision to change him over, and clearly his happy with the switch.
I do think the Koni's are superior dampers. I also don't hate D-Specs. I think if money is truly an issue, the D-Specs are good bang for the buck. However, I find that folks often say money is an issue but go spend as much or more on things that matter much less. That's a mistake. Good dampers rule so much, and will be in place for so long that they should not be skimped upon.
Can you do worse than D-Specs? Sure, and I sell them because I believe they work and work pretty well. However, I don't feel they are the best thing around, and like most "options" you can get on a car, when you opt for something that doesn't cost as much, you tend to give up something. Here it's the combination of ride quality vs. performance and just now finely you dial in the car. I heard a great line the other night, and it's true.... "You can't know what you don't know". Those that have been able to back to back the two dampers know both sides. Those that haven't been able to, or can't have to rely on what they hear and can learn. Like anything you will get different opinions. This is why I spend time with folks and do my best to explain the differences. Something that is not my favorite doesn't equal that thing sucking. It might, but the two are not mutually exclusive. I don't think D-Specs suck, but they aren't Koni's IMO.
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/19/2008 2:01:16 PM
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F1Fan
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Hi Sam,
There was an S197 D-Spec #DSP12 specific chart very early on the website when they were announced but this has been replaced with the generic version as you mention.
Durability wise when used on a smooth surface and maintained well I have no doubt that D-Specs will last just as long as a Koni sport damper can but in the real world this is a big variable and with D-Specs being relatively new only time will tell in this application Absolute numbers are deceptive, there have been more D-Specs sold than Koni Sports I assumme this is true even at your relatively new shop. It is not the absolute number of returns but the percentage of units sold and returned actually failed (not caused by external forces) that shows reliability.
Historically I agree with you Koni are very reliable dampers but like everything else they do break on a regular basis. The place I used to work at used to sell thousands of Koni dampers every year and the return rate of Koni dampers that were actually broken was higher than the number of Bilstein dampers in the same condition at that time. Actually the Koni VW race struts we sold were supposedly built and designed for just for rally use and would blow the valves in the pistons out not the seals and not the foot valves. Based on the problems folks had with the Koni dampers at the time a lot of people switched to Bilsteins and had very few problems not caused by putting the car into a ditch or tree. Koni and Bilstein use very different valving methods and the Bilsteins just worked more reliably for the rally folks than the Konis at the time. Stuff changes all the time though so who know what works now for the rally folks? This was just an example and my experience with a problem that Koni did not overcome before people jumped to Billies.
The interesting thing is that if you look at even the D-Spec's compresion damping rate I think the percentange of change is much smaller than the increased rebound damping effectively giving you the same sort of adjustment we used to do on the 2/3-way dampers in use at the time. How the D-Specs and Koni Sports curves differ might show us better how they differ and why they can feel so differently with different springs and unsprung weights. I may be able to call and get the specfic shock dyno charts for the DSP12 dampers from Tokico. Or if you have half a set of D-Specs you can send me for a couple of weeks so I can go and have them put on a shock dyno send them to me and I'll give you a copy of the shock dyno charts I get when I send the dampers back.
As I've posted before Koni's do very well under a narow range of conditions and for a track car or a high-performance road car will be a great option as long as the driver can accept the additonal ride harshness and potential mismatch in compression damping for his combination. For the most part I aggree that Koni's are a good choice as long as that driver is focused on road racing, solo and autoX events. Long tours, rough roads and drag racing have very different needs in terms of damping traits and Koni Sports simply cannot meet these needs as well as a D-Spec damper does. You will never get a car with Koni Sports to transfer weight on the drag strip as quickly as a D-Spec equiped S197 all other things being equal, you will never get a Koni Sport equiped S197 to ride as softly as a D-spec equiped S197. So as any one can see you can just as easily be boxed in with the Koni Sports if you happen to want to run at the drag strip or need a soft touring quality ride, it's no different. It's just the nature of the different valving systems and the reason for the existance of 2,3,4 and 6-way dampers. Given a choice IMO and experience on the street more people are willing to trade some fine track control for potentially better ride and a wider range of acceptable use. Sure you can buy better drag dampers, QA1 makes some nice struts and the Koni Sports IMO make a better low-end road racing damper but the D-Specs can and do perform as well as the dedicated road or drag strip dampers just look at the people using them on road courses and drag strips. If winning races is the measure of success then D-Specs are doing a lot more than just being the best bang for the buck dampers out there they are killing Koni at the moment. As you can see I don't disagree with your assessment that Koni makes the better road racing use dampers but this is a bit narrower than most people are willing to use their cars.
HTH!
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 5/23/2008 3:52:34 PM >
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/19/2008 2:26:51 PM
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Sam Strano
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Here's where we differ.... For some reason you seem to think that Koni's are very limited in their use because you say things like "Koni's do very well under a narow range of conditions and for a track car or a high-performance road car will be a great option as long as the driver can accept the additonal ride harshness and potential mismatch in compression damping for his combination".
I completely disagree with that assessment, and think you'd be hard pressed to find folks who've had Koni's and dislike them under most any condition. The man who wrote the note that started this thread is not a racer, and was very clear to me about that. He lives in Michigan in the Detroit area, and didn't like how the car drove on the roads in and around his area. He's not out there autoxing against me for National Championships. I can't think of a better example to show anyone that the Koni's aren't just able to deal with a narrow range of conditions.
I could come up with more, up to and including quotes from magazines. As a matter of fact, here's a quote from GMHTP last year regarding a suspension I did for the Editor's car:
"It is important that you know the environment in which these components were street tested. I live in New York City, which has by far the worst roads in the U.S. One- to three-foot-deep potholes, ruts several inches deep, road hazards galore, and expansion joints that'll shock a suspension like a land mine. I travel through Queens, Manhattan, The Bronx, and New Jersey daily. (Statewide, New Jersey was recently voted as having the worst overall road system for the eighth year straight.) So, if this suspension has any weakness, I'd find it.
Right after the hard parts went in, I jumped in the Z and followed Sam Strano's SCCA champ '01 Camaro through the twisty roads outside Brookville, Pennsylvania. Immediately, I noticed that the floatiness was gone, and heavy steering input didn't mean eventual understeer, it meant that the car was going where you pointed it. It was already a night-and-day difference. However, it wasn't until the alignment was done that everything came together.
I am, quite simply, blown away by the Z28's new suspension. If I could distill everything I feel in one sentence, it would go like this: Everything dull and soft is now sharp and firm. Strano has balanced his spring rates and bar sizes to provide sick handling on the track, and verylivable manners on the road. The single-adjustable Konis are so spectacular I don't know where to start. Though Strano's shock settings, the larger 17-inch rims, and thinner sidewall made my NYC commute a touch rough with the terrible roads, this combo was perfect during a road trip on Pennsylvania's interstates. I took on- and off-ramps at ridiculous speeds, and I found myself carrying big speed into and out of 180-degree on-ramps, easily pulling away from high-dollar imports that were trying to keep up but couldn't. Two adjustments have been made. One was a clunk in the back that revealed itself as a loose nut on a rear shock mount; that was a quick fix. When I told Strano that the ride was a bit rough, he recommended that I drop the street tire pressure from the 34 front/32 rear from track testing to 30 all the way around.
I did, and it softened up NYC's bumps for me. So trust me-if it's OK for New York, it will be fine for your driver. All in all, I couldn't be happier with the mods we made to this Camaro."
Now, that's a Camaro.... but a Camaro with Koni's installed. What's more because the car was setup to also go to a track day, I didn't use softer springs, or softer shock settings like I could have. I put in the specs I use for autox duty, and yet you still read things like "very liveable, coudn't be happier, softened up NYC's bumps for me" and so on.
And I've stated it before, and I'll do it again. If anyone is in my neck of the woods, stop by. I'll happily take you for a ride in my car on Koni's, on out PA roads (which aren't exactly pristine) and you can judge for yourself if the shocks are only good in a narrow range.
The fact is D-specs have more "range" because they try to be everything to everyone. But range that's far too soft to control things isn't useful to me. Koni isn't trying to be everything to everyone. They know that control is what shocks are about. And fwiw you also seem to intimate that Koni's range is small. It's not. Koni's rebound range, at minimum traverse from full soft to +100% damping, and in some cases can add up to 400% more rebound control over full soft. If anyone doubts how much rebound range exists in Koni's, find someone with some and get them to take you for a ride with the shocks set full soft than full firm... you won't doubt the range of adjustment any longer.
_____________________________
SCCA National Champion (x4)
SCCA ProSolo Champion (x3)
Borrower: ''07 Shelby GT #450
Owner: ''07 Mustang GTKoni equipped
Owner: STRANO PERFORMANCE PARTS
www.stranoparts.com
800-729-1831 orders
814-849-3450 questions/tech
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/19/2008 2:33:39 PM
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Sam Strano
Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline
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And FWIW, QA1's are crap as far as I'm concerned. They have a POS adjuster, that doesn't even effect the piston, just a bypass to the outer oil chamber. They aren't even gas-charged dampers, and why not, even the stock stuff has a nitrogen charge to keep oil foaming and shock fade down.
I wouldn't give you a nickel for QA1 dampers. And I'm not anti-QA1... they make some really good rod-ends. :)
_____________________________
SCCA National Champion (x4)
SCCA ProSolo Champion (x3)
Borrower: ''07 Shelby GT #450
Owner: ''07 Mustang GTKoni equipped
Owner: STRANO PERFORMANCE PARTS
www.stranoparts.com
800-729-1831 orders
814-849-3450 questions/tech
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/20/2008 1:53:51 AM
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mygt500
Posts: 5905
Joined: 11/26/2006
Status: offline
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Hello everyone! Sam does not have to defend himself nor does anyone else.... as a sponsor he is allowed to post anything he wants in relation to advertising and which products he recommends for any application. (including his opinion-members can post opinions too!). What I do not understand is how this turned ugly and a "I know more about suspensions than you do" type of thread. Debating a fact based point is one thing but lets keep it just as that....debating opinions is hard as they are another persons perception of what they know about that debate and if their opinion is fact based and proven or not. I personally know nothing about suspensions and have looked to him for his "opinion" based on the fact that he stocks both brands and has used both himself. I also think his track record helps prove that. Keep it as a debate and lets not get this locked! J S197 section moderator
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2006 Mustang GT with Cervinis Kit
Whipple H.O S/C 465 RWHP and 440RWTQ
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/20/2008 8:11:01 PM
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2007GT/CS
Posts: 815
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline
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Awww. Just another day in the Handling Section 
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Saleen S/C - 432 RWHP/406 RWTQ - Hurst - Spydershaft - 4.10s - Bassani mufflers
Koni - Vogtland - J&M UCA/LCAs - Saleen Watts Link - 5zigen FN01r-c 18x9.5
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/23/2008 5:32:25 PM
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F1Fan
Posts: 1281
Joined: 3/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sam Strano
Here's where we differ.... For some reason you seem to think that Koni's are very limited in their use because you say things like "Koni's do very well under a narow range of conditions and for a track car or a high-performance road car will be a great option as long as the driver can accept the additonal ride harshness and potential mismatch in compression damping for his combination".
I completely disagree with that assessment, and think you'd be hard pressed to find folks who've had Koni's and dislike them under most any condition. The man who wrote the note that started this thread is not a racer, and was very clear to me about that. He lives in Michigan in the Detroit area, and didn't like how the car drove on the roads in and around his area. He's not out there autoxing against me for National Championships. I can't think of a better example to show anyone that the Koni's aren't just able to deal with a narrow range of conditions.
I could come up with more, up to and including quotes from magazines. As a matter of fact, here's a quote from GMHTP last year regarding a suspension I did for the Editor's car:
"It is important that you know the environment in which these components were street tested. I live in New York City, which has by far the worst roads in the U.S. One- to three-foot-deep potholes, ruts several inches deep, road hazards galore, and expansion joints that'll shock a suspension like a land mine. I travel through Queens, Manhattan, The Bronx, and New Jersey daily. (Statewide, New Jersey was recently voted as having the worst overall road system for the eighth year straight.) So, if this suspension has any weakness, I'd find it.
Right after the hard parts went in, I jumped in the Z and followed Sam Strano's SCCA champ '01 Camaro through the twisty roads outside Brookville, Pennsylvania. Immediately, I noticed that the floatiness was gone, and heavy steering input didn't mean eventual understeer, it meant that the car was going where you pointed it. It was already a night-and-day difference. However, it wasn't until the alignment was done that everything came together.
I am, quite simply, blown away by the Z28's new suspension. If I could distill everything I feel in one sentence, it would go like this: Everything dull and soft is now sharp and firm. Strano has balanced his spring rates and bar sizes to provide sick handling on the track, and verylivable manners on the road. The single-adjustable Konis are so spectacular I don't know where to start. Though Strano's shock settings, the larger 17-inch rims, and thinner sidewall made my NYC commute a touch rough with the terrible roads, this combo was perfect during a road trip on Pennsylvania's interstates. I took on- and off-ramps at ridiculous speeds, and I found myself carrying big speed into and out of 180-degree on-ramps, easily pulling away from high-dollar imports that were trying to keep up but couldn't. Two adjustments have been made. One was a clunk in the back that revealed itself as a loose nut on a rear shock mount; that was a quick fix. When I told Strano that the ride was a bit rough, he recommended that I drop the street tire pressure from the 34 front/32 rear from track testing to 30 all the way around.
I did, and it softened up NYC's bumps for me. So trust me-if it's OK for New York, it will be fine for your driver. All in all, I couldn't be happier with the mods we made to this Camaro."
Now, that's a Camaro.... but a Camaro with Koni's installed. What's more because the car was setup to also go to a track day, I didn't use softer springs, or softer shock settings like I could have. I put in the specs I use for autox duty, and yet you still read things like "very liveable, coudn't be happier, softened up NYC's bumps for me" and so on.
And I've stated it before, and I'll do it again. If anyone is in my neck of the woods, stop by. I'll happily take you for a ride in my car on Koni's, on out PA roads (which aren't exactly pristine) and you can judge for yourself if the shocks are only good in a narrow range.
The fact is D-specs have more "range" because they try to be everything to everyone. But range that's far too soft to control things isn't useful to me. Koni isn't trying to be everything to everyone. They know that control is what shocks are about. And fwiw you also seem to intimate that Koni's range is small. It's not. Koni's rebound range, at minimum traverse from full soft to +100% damping, and in some cases can add up to 400% more rebound control over full soft. If anyone doubts how much rebound range exists in Koni's, find someone with some and get them to take you for a ride with the shocks set full soft than full firm... you won't doubt the range of adjustment any longer.
Hi Sam,
So would you suggest a set of Koni Sports to an S197GT owner who like to go drag racing with his buddies and his firmly non-racing interested wife/girlfriend and has lightweight wheels and slicks and likes to drive his car out to various regional drag strips for weekend events? In your opinion are Koni Sports the better choice for him than a set of D-Specs? This is also his daily driver and he takes it to work on the streets because that's all there are for his 20 mile drive into town and the road conditions are not very good living in the snow belt as he does.
What about the guy who has a long daily commute and car pools with a co-worker 60+ miles one-way as is common here in the greater L.A. area and likes to hit the driving schools in the area and says comfort is his main worry as he wants to have a comfy ride for his daily 120 mile freeway slog but also would like to improve body control still on his stock springs and bars due to ride and noise concerns on his stock 17" wheels and tires?
What about a guy who is happy to experience life a 1/4 mile at a time all weekend long on a blower motor with slicks and a stripped interior? Are Koni Sports the best option for him too?
IMO which is based on two S197GT's with Koni Sports I installed with Steeda springs these are great dampers for a serious high-performance street and weekend track toy. Not surprisingly the Steeda Comp springs rode firmer than the Ultralites. But in either case IMO they won't make for a great long distance cruising setup with the wife through the wine country. Now if we were talking about a solo blast up route 1 here from L.A. to NorCal for the weekend I'm all for it but as anybody will tell you I have the hardest bottom on the planet and will run route 1 all the way to The City in a single sitting breaking only to feed the pony. FYI that is a 10 hour run at a fast pace and on more than one occassion I've turned around and flown down I-5 in less than 5 hours from Marin to L.A.. But that's just my way of getting enough seat time to have a good weekend of driving.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/23/2008 6:44:09 PM
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Sam Strano
Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline
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Ok... you win. D-specs rock and are the answer to all ills. No, on second thought you don't win. I never said D-specs are bad, only that I prefer the Koni's and then backed it up with an opinion of someone who specifically is NOT a hard-core kind of guy who drives on greater Detroit area roads.
I sell D-specs, I sell Koni. I have a preference after running both. As for the "drag race guy", I'd probably put him on D-specs... but mostly because the fact the compression gets stiffer in the back with adjustment can help tune out wheelhop. Not because they get a ton softer on rebound, because the Koni's can get plenty soft. And anyone really hardcore on dragging will unhook the massive front bar for better weight transfer, but at that point I don't want a shock that has no damping because the car will get really scary on the top end that way. And, fwiw I thought this was the handling section. You don't see me trying to push these as drag shocks. Although I've had cars 60's better on Koni's than on true drag shocks (QA1 and Afco's).....
Have a great Memorial Day weekend. I'm goin' racing.
_____________________________
SCCA National Champion (x4)
SCCA ProSolo Champion (x3)
Borrower: ''07 Shelby GT #450
Owner: ''07 Mustang GTKoni equipped
Owner: STRANO PERFORMANCE PARTS
www.stranoparts.com
800-729-1831 orders
814-849-3450 questions/tech
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/24/2008 3:29:09 PM
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houstonnw
Posts: 38
Joined: 2/4/2007
Status: offline
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On second thought, this post had no value.
< Message edited by houstonnw -- 5/25/2008 10:58:20 AM >
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/24/2008 3:53:40 PM
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steelcomp
Posts: 255
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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I think like a lot of other subjects, this one is most open to personal preference or interpertation based on personal experience. What one may think is a "reasonable" ride quality, another may say it's horrible. It's pretty obvious that some guy that switches from his stock suspension to Koni's (especially in a Z28) is going to think "wow!!!, and think the guy who sold them to him is a hero. What does he know from shocks or suspension? Interesting thing is, his only reference to "ride quality" is:
quote:
When I told Strano that the ride was a bit rough, he recommended that I drop the street tire pressure from the 34 front/32 rear from track testing to 30 all the way around.
I did, and it softened up NYC's bumps for me. So trust me-if it's OK for New York, it will be fine for your driver. All in all, I couldn't be happier with the mods we made to this Camaro."
IMO, Z28's are already some of the worst riding, buckboard handling cars I've ever been in in stock form. I don't imagine the ride got any rougher with the Konis, and I like the solution. Lower the tire pressure?? How about make the suspension right. It's clear that the Koni's provided an impressive improvemenet, but F1's point is clearly made here, and mine. It's Sam's customer's personal opinion based on his own personal experience.
ON the other hand, I can't stand a "soft" ride, and welcome the firmness of something like a Koni. That's my "preference", and my "liking", and I could sell someone on that, based on the reasons I like it. Some threads can be completely technical based on pure results. I don't think this is one of them.
Just my .02
_____________________________
07GT Alloy 5spd, IUP, Tint
C&L race, Brenspeed 91/110, deletes, UDP, Magnaflow,
GC d/a Koni, Spohn, BMR, FRPP, Steeda, Wilwood, Volk RE30, Michelin PS2''s & more.
I modify, therefore I am.
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RE: Koni vs. D-specs.. a customer's view - 5/24/2008 4:34:32 PM
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steelcomp
Posts: 255
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: houstonnw
quote:
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
What about a guy who is happy to experience life a 1/4 mile at a time all weekend long on a blower motor with slicks and a stripped interior? Are Koni Sports the best option for him too?
How does that Watt's Link that you are so fond of work on the dragstrip?
Be careful attacking another poster/vendor. Wait, are you just a regular poster or are you actually a Steeda vendor? Your posts would suggest the latter.
JMHO
...said the pot to the kettle...
Nice contribuion to the thread. Guess you didn't read the Mod's little note?
_____________________________
07GT Alloy 5spd, IUP, Tint
C&L race, Brenspeed 91/110, deletes, UDP, Magnaflow,
GC d/a Koni, Spohn, BMR, FRPP, Steeda, Wilwood, Volk RE30, Michelin PS2''s & more.
I modify, therefore I am.
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