^^wow, here's someone taking the stance of outsold > out of the box performance/potential; any takers for this challenge?
Anybody? I guess you guys sleep at night.
What I mean is that the Camaro/Firebird had been battling the Mustang since 1967. The F-bodies have always been at least as good, and in many years far superior to the Mustang. But the SN95/New Edge Mustangs outsold the 4th gen F-bodies by over 2 to 1.
There is no question in my mind that the 4th gen F-body is a better car than the 1990's Mustang, but that doesn't matter because no one bought them.
If the 4th gens were the cars that defined the 90's they would have sold more.
^ I wouldn't agree with his choices either because the criterium for "Car of the Decade" has to be a combination of out of the box perfomance, potential, public approval, and availability/affordability to the common peoples.
The Mustangs may have outsold the LSx and LTx cars, but every time I go out street racing in KC I can't count how many mustangs are getting torn up by GM cars. The ones that are winning are using poweradders against a bolton car and once H/C/I/E goes on the LSx cars you better have some serious work done to the stang, 4v or not.
^^wow, here's someone taking the stance of outsold > out of the box performance/potential; any takers for this challenge?
Anybody? I guess you guys sleep at night.
What I mean is that the Camaro/Firebird had been battling the Mustang since 1967. The F-bodies have always been at least as good, and in many years far superior to the Mustang. But the SN95/New Edge Mustangs outsold the 4th gen F-bodies by over 2 to 1.
There is no question in my mind that the 4th gen F-body is a better car than the 1990's Mustang, but that doesn't matter because no one bought them.
If the 4th gens were the cars that defined the 90's they would have sold more.
I dont have the time right now but I've posted this before...
Several Years during the 90s the F-Body actually outsold the mustang and when the mustang was ahead it wasn't a 2 to 1 margin... that's fanboy propaganda at it's best.
_____________________________
2001 Z28 M6 - 13.1 @ 108mph 2.1 60ft / Bone Stock (FRA / 1LE Springs - No new times yet)
To me a car that defines a decade would have to be the which pops to mind just thinking of their era, it doesn't matter if it's not the fastest or the most expensive. Everyone has their own opinion and heres mine!!!
50's ----- Corvette 60's ----- Cobra 70's ----- Cuda 80's ----- Grand National 90's ----- Camaro LT1/LS1 00's ----- Mustang Cobra 03/04
_____________________________
04 Cobra Conv. 8.1@85mph (Bone Stock) 03 Cobra Coupe 7.5@93mph (2.9 Pulley,K&N,Exhaust) 05 STI 8.5@80mph (Bone Stock) & Others Still the KING of S/S
Team MF Member #5002 Posts: 5069
Joined: 12/4/2005 Status: offline
I just hope you're not referring to a factory supercharged car... because that's a lame excuse. You have (2) companies, one that will put a blown car with a small block vs a N/A big block - then that's it... If Ford took a NA 427 and put it in the Cobra, then you would be crying "It takes them that much bigger block to compete" all the while the big block fords are ripping the GM's to shreds, like the Terminators were doing to the LS1 series... When I had my GT, and lost to a LS1, I never gave the excuse "well you have a bigger motor then me!".. I can't stand the "well you have a blower" excuse....
run what ya brung - case closed.
If you ask most car enthusiasts about cars in the 90s-2008 you're going to hear: NSX, TT Supra, Terminator, FBody - more then anything else... I just think the Supra TT was the best thing out in the 90's.. even moreso then Fbodies... because of the modibility they have.. and the Terminators in the 2000-2008 because they're really bullitproof for most people. There's no other car made under 40k in the last 20 years that can withstand what the Terminator Cobra can... and make power like the Terminator cobra through aftermarket.
Now if you want to rank where they are I say: 2000-2008
Terminator C5/C6 Vette Series Mach 1 / Fbodies - performance is close, Mach 1 looks better imo, but Fbodies can be made faster cheaper... hard to split them apart. NA Cobras SRT8 series Evo/STi SRT4 Neon
That above list is taking everything into account. Price, modibility, looks, abuse allowance.. everything. All in my opinion (I love America!)
quote:
ORIGINAL: 35thAnni99GT
^ I wouldn't agree with his choices either because the criterium for "Car of the Decade" has to be a combination of out of the box perfomance, potential, public approval, and availability/affordability to the common peoples.
The Mustangs may have outsold the LSx and LTx cars, but every time I go out street racing in KC I can't count how many mustangs are getting torn up by GM cars. The ones that are winning are using poweradders against a bolton car and once H/C/I/E goes on the LSx cars you better have some serious work done to the stang, 4v or not.
Posts: 346
Joined: 11/29/2006 From: Manchester, UK Status: offline
Can't believe no one has mentioned the Lambourghini Countach.
One of the cars that basically defined modern supercars in my opinion. And one of the true classics. Was also rather quick for a car built in the 70's.
I just hope you're not referring to a factory supercharged car... because that's a lame excuse. You have (2) companies, one that will put a blown car with a small block vs a N/A big block - then that's it... If Ford took a NA 427 and put it in the Cobra, then you would be crying "It takes them that much bigger block to compete" all the while the big block fords are ripping the GM's to shreds, like the Terminators were doing to the LS1 series... When I had my GT, and lost to a LS1, I never gave the excuse "well you have a bigger motor then me!".. I can't stand the "well you have a blower" excuse....
run what ya brung - case closed.
If you ask most car enthusiasts about cars in the 90s-2008 you're going to hear: NSX, TT Supra, Terminator, FBody - more then anything else... I just think the Supra TT was the best thing out in the 90's.. even moreso then Fbodies... because of the modibility they have.. and the Terminators in the 2000-2008 because they're really bullitproof for most people. There's no other car made under 40k in the last 20 years that can withstand what the Terminator Cobra can... and make power like the Terminator cobra through aftermarket.
Now if you want to rank where they are I say: 2000-2008
Terminator C5/C6 Vette Series Mach 1 / Fbodies - performance is close, Mach 1 looks better imo, but Fbodies can be made faster cheaper... hard to split them apart. NA Cobras SRT8 series Evo/STi SRT4 Neon
That above list is taking everything into account. Price, modibility, looks, abuse allowance.. everything. All in my opinion (I love America!)
quote:
ORIGINAL: 35thAnni99GT
^ I wouldn't agree with his choices either because the criterium for "Car of the Decade" has to be a combination of out of the box perfomance, potential, public approval, and availability/affordability to the common peoples.
The Mustangs may have outsold the LSx and LTx cars, but every time I go out street racing in KC I can't count how many mustangs are getting torn up by GM cars. The ones that are winning are using poweradders against a bolton car and once H/C/I/E goes on the LSx cars you better have some serious work done to the stang, 4v or not.
LSx F-bodies ruled the 90's IMHO.
Thats because you couldn't.
The LS1 is actually smaller than the engine in your GT.
I just hope you're not referring to a factory supercharged car... because that's a lame excuse. You have (2) companies, one that will put a blown car with a small block vs a N/A big block - then that's it... If Ford took a NA 427 and put it in the Cobra, then you would be crying "It takes them that much bigger block to compete" all the while the big block fords are ripping the GM's to shreds, like the Terminators were doing to the LS1 series... When I had my GT, and lost to a LS1, I never gave the excuse "well you have a bigger motor then me!".. I can't stand the "well you have a blower" excuse....
run what ya brung - case closed.
If you ask most car enthusiasts about cars in the 90s-2008 you're going to hear: NSX, TT Supra, Terminator, FBody - more then anything else... I just think the Supra TT was the best thing out in the 90's.. even moreso then Fbodies... because of the modibility they have.. and the Terminators in the 2000-2008 because they're really bullitproof for most people. There's no other car made under 40k in the last 20 years that can withstand what the Terminator Cobra can... and make power like the Terminator cobra through aftermarket.
Now if you want to rank where they are I say: 2000-2008
Terminator C5/C6 Vette Series Mach 1 / Fbodies - performance is close, Mach 1 looks better imo, but Fbodies can be made faster cheaper... hard to split them apart. NA Cobras SRT8 series Evo/STi SRT4 Neon
That above list is taking everything into account. Price, modibility, looks, abuse allowance.. everything. All in my opinion (I love America!)
quote:
ORIGINAL: 35thAnni99GT
^ I wouldn't agree with his choices either because the criterium for "Car of the Decade" has to be a combination of out of the box perfomance, potential, public approval, and availability/affordability to the common peoples.
The Mustangs may have outsold the LSx and LTx cars, but every time I go out street racing in KC I can't count how many mustangs are getting torn up by GM cars. The ones that are winning are using poweradders against a bolton car and once H/C/I/E goes on the LSx cars you better have some serious work done to the stang, 4v or not.
LSx F-bodies ruled the 90's IMHO.
Thats because you couldn't.
The LS1 is actually smaller than the engine in your GT.
Ewwwww... Nice one..haha.... most people would not have seen that one coming. haha
_____________________________
2001 Z28 M6 - 13.1 @ 108mph 2.1 60ft / Bone Stock (FRA / 1LE Springs - No new times yet)
^^wow, here's someone taking the stance of outsold > out of the box performance/potential; any takers for this challenge?
Anybody? I guess you guys sleep at night.
What I mean is that the Camaro/Firebird had been battling the Mustang since 1967. The F-bodies have always been at least as good, and in many years far superior to the Mustang. But the SN95/New Edge Mustangs outsold the 4th gen F-bodies by over 2 to 1.
There is no question in my mind that the 4th gen F-body is a better car than the 1990's Mustang, but that doesn't matter because no one bought them.
If the 4th gens were the cars that defined the 90's they would have sold more.
I dont have the time right now but I've posted this before...
Several Years during the 90s the F-Body actually outsold the mustang and when the mustang was ahead it wasn't a 2 to 1 margin... that's fanboy propaganda at it's best.
Wow, I said that the 4th gen F-bodies were totally superior to the 90's Mustangs and still get called a fanboy.
I had a 1996 Z28 6 speed and a 1999 Trans Am automatic. I bought both new.
I now drive a 2007 Mustang GT. I bought it because I like how it looks, and, oh yeah, THERE ARE NO MORE CAMARO'S AND TRANS AM'S.
The fact is that GM discontinued them because they weren't selling. They wouldn't have discontinued them if they had been selling. GTO anyone?
Another fact is that while people weren't buying the 4th gens, they were buying Mustangs. And while it is true that there were some years in the 90's where the F-bodies outsould the SN95/NE, none of those years were between 1998 and 2002 when Saint LS1 blessed us with his presence.
No one seems to have a problem with the Trans Am representing the 70's even though it was slower and harder to modify "out of the box" than other 1970's cars. Everyone knows that it's easier and cheaper to get horsepower from a Chevy engine than a Pontiac. 1970 was the peak of the Musclecar era. Any 1970 musclecar would rape any 1975-1979 T/A, but it's acceptable to define the decade by one.
My new list will follow the guidelines of affordable for the average shmo with a decent job, out of the box performance, public acceptance,etc....
^ I wouldn't agree with his choices either because the criterium for "Car of the Decade" has to be a combination of out of the box perfomance, potential, public approval, and availability/affordability to the common peoples.
The Mustangs may have outsold the LSx and LTx cars, but every time I go out street racing in KC I can't count how many mustangs are getting torn up by GM cars. The ones that are winning are using poweradders against a bolton car and once H/C/I/E goes on the LSx cars you better have some serious work done to the stang, 4v or not.
LSx F-bodies ruled the 90's IMHO.
OK, by your standards the SN95/New Edge meets out of the box performance, with 15 sec 1/4's for SN95's and 14 sec 1/4's for the New Edge, both respectable for the day.
Potential: I won't even get into that one.
Public approval: 1,617,020 SN95/NE's sold during their run.
Availability/affordability to the unwashed masses: DUH.
Please note that I am still saying pound for pound the 4th gen F-body is the better car, but what fits the criteria better?
< Message edited by Blue Meanie -- 4/19/2008 9:25:14 PM >
Wow, I said that the 4th gen F-bodies were totally superior to the 90's Mustangs and still get called a fanboy.
I had a 1996 Z28 6 speed and a 1999 Trans Am automatic. I bought both new.
I now drive a 2007 Mustang GT. I bought it because I like how it looks, and, oh yeah, THERE ARE NO MORE CAMARO'S AND TRANS AM'S.
The fact is that GM discontinued them because they weren't selling. They wouldn't have discontinued them if they had been selling. GTO anyone?
Another fact is that while people weren't buying the 4th gens, they were buying Mustangs. And while it is true that there were some years in the 90's where the F-bodies outsould the SN95/NE, none of those years were between 1998 and 2002 when Saint LS1 blessed us with his presence.
There is a lot of damning evidence and cover up to make any 'sales' argument laughable. Then there is the hiatus hush order and bam as soon as the plant is torn down up pops a new camaro anouncement.
Obviously you have owned a 4th gen but know very little in regards to them outside of maybe performance.
Then you further back up the fact that you are spewing trash with your GTO comment (newsflash... GM only planned 3 years from the get go..it wasn't discontinued due to sales, it simply ran it's intended cycle.) Documents and news articles posted years before the first 04 even made it onto the first cargo ship prove this.
As far as the LS1 outselling anything...the LS1 didn't do anything new (the LT1 was already good enough to handle the GT cars)... and it certainly didn't set any sales records. The LS1 years had some of the lowest build numbers in history (my 01 year only had 30 something thousand Camaros and 30 something thousand Firebirds).. if you look at the fact that the F-body platform was damned in the early 90s you would realize they didn't put any effort into advertisement nor improvements for them, in fact the LS1 wasn't even supposed to happen..I believe in the 94~95 era it was planned that the F-Body would cease to exist by 1998. In fact the only reason the LS1 happened was the CAW contract forced them to keep building F-Body cars and the LT1 was discontinued leaving them with no other engine choice but the LS1. (that is a whole different subject revolving around a stolen reverse cooling design / lawsuit)...
You are probably a pretty smart guy but maybe you need to brush up on your history before posting up next time?
< Message edited by S8ER01Z -- 4/19/2008 9:58:42 PM >
_____________________________
2001 Z28 M6 - 13.1 @ 108mph 2.1 60ft / Bone Stock (FRA / 1LE Springs - No new times yet)
Wow, I said that the 4th gen F-bodies were totally superior to the 90's Mustangs and still get called a fanboy.
I had a 1996 Z28 6 speed and a 1999 Trans Am automatic. I bought both new.
I now drive a 2007 Mustang GT. I bought it because I like how it looks, and, oh yeah, THERE ARE NO MORE CAMARO'S AND TRANS AM'S.
The fact is that GM discontinued them because they weren't selling. They wouldn't have discontinued them if they had been selling. GTO anyone?
Another fact is that while people weren't buying the 4th gens, they were buying Mustangs. And while it is true that there were some years in the 90's where the F-bodies outsould the SN95/NE, none of those years were between 1998 and 2002 when Saint LS1 blessed us with his presence.
There is a lot of damning evidence and cover up to make any 'sales' argument laughable. Then there is the hiatus hush order and bam as soon as the plant is torn down up pops a new camaro anouncement.
Obviously you have owned a 4th gen but know very little in regards to them outside of maybe performance.
Then you further back up the fact that you are spewing trash with your GTO comment (newsflash... GM only planned 3 years from the get go..it wasn't discontinued due to sales, it simply ran it's intended cycle.) Documents and news articles posted years before the first 04 even made it onto the first cargo ship prove this.
As far as the LS1 outselling anything...the LS1 didn't do anything new (the LT1 was already good enough to handle the GT cars)... and it certainly didn't set any sales records. The LS1 years had some of the lowest build numbers in history (my 01 year only had 30 something thousand Camaros and 30 something thousand Firebirds).. if you look at the fact that the F-body platform was damned in the early 90s you would realize they didn't put any effort into advertisement nor improvements for them, in fact the LS1 wasn't even supposed to happen..I believe in the 94~95 era it was planned that the F-Body would cease to exist by 1998. In fact the only reason the LS1 happened was the CAW contract forced them to keep building F-Body cars and the LT1 was discontinued leaving them with no other engine choice but the LS1. (that is a whole different subject revolving around a stolen reverse cooling design / lawsuit)...
You are probably a pretty smart guy but maybe you need to brush up on your history before posting up next time?
Yeah, I remember reading about the pact with the CAW and the ST. Therese plant back in 2002. They were predicting no new Camaro's ever back then and hinted that after the plant was destroyed they'd be able to weasel out of the deal. Old news.
Again, I'm not knocking either the LT1, LS1 or F-bodies in general. I've owned a 74 Camaro LT 350 4bbl, 79 Trans Am 455 that I sold when I bought the Mustang, 79 Firebird Esprit 301 that I still have, 80 Trans Am 305 chevy 4 speed,82 Trans Am Recaro Edition, 84 Trans Am 15th Ann Edition, 87 GTA ASC conv 305 TPI 5 speed, 1989 Trans Am TPI 305 auto, 96 Z28, and 99 T/A. I know f-bobies fairly well. All I'm saying is GM (and Ford as well) will run a platform into the ground if it keeps selling. 1968-1982 Vette, 1970-1981 F-body, 1982-1992 F-body, 1977-1990 Impala/Caprice,1978-1988 G bodies etc. All of these cars were sold way,way past their prime. The 4th gen was still dominating performance-wise in 2002.If the 4th gens were selling hot they'd still be making them today. The fact that the 90's Mustang hit the 4th gens so hard in sales was a major factor in the F-bodies demise.
As for the GTO, you are correct that the original platform was only intended to be produced through 2006 due to side impact standards, but the MODEL was killed due to slow to no sales. The G8 is built off the replacement platform for the GTO, so if there was more interest/sales in the 04-06 the model would live on today.
I'm still lost as far as defining the cars of the decades if sales numbers hold no meaning. Are you supposed to choose by emotional attachment? Most guy's in S/S weren't alive to remember any of these cars.
< Message edited by Blue Meanie -- 4/19/2008 11:13:16 PM >
Team MF Member #5002 Posts: 5069
Joined: 12/4/2005 Status: offline
lol.. prick.. you know what i meant!
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrRogers
quote:
ORIGINAL: xxkazp3rxx
I just hope you're not referring to a factory supercharged car... because that's a lame excuse. You have (2) companies, one that will put a blown car with a small block vs a N/A big block - then that's it... If Ford took a NA 427 and put it in the Cobra, then you would be crying "It takes them that much bigger block to compete" all the while the big block fords are ripping the GM's to shreds, like the Terminators were doing to the LS1 series... When I had my GT, and lost to a LS1, I never gave the excuse "well you have a bigger motor then me!".. I can't stand the "well you have a blower" excuse....
run what ya brung - case closed.
If you ask most car enthusiasts about cars in the 90s-2008 you're going to hear: NSX, TT Supra, Terminator, FBody - more then anything else... I just think the Supra TT was the best thing out in the 90's.. even moreso then Fbodies... because of the modibility they have.. and the Terminators in the 2000-2008 because they're really bullitproof for most people. There's no other car made under 40k in the last 20 years that can withstand what the Terminator Cobra can... and make power like the Terminator cobra through aftermarket.
Now if you want to rank where they are I say: 2000-2008
Terminator C5/C6 Vette Series Mach 1 / Fbodies - performance is close, Mach 1 looks better imo, but Fbodies can be made faster cheaper... hard to split them apart. NA Cobras SRT8 series Evo/STi SRT4 Neon
That above list is taking everything into account. Price, modibility, looks, abuse allowance.. everything. All in my opinion (I love America!)
quote:
ORIGINAL: 35thAnni99GT
^ I wouldn't agree with his choices either because the criterium for "Car of the Decade" has to be a combination of out of the box perfomance, potential, public approval, and availability/affordability to the common peoples.
The Mustangs may have outsold the LSx and LTx cars, but every time I go out street racing in KC I can't count how many mustangs are getting torn up by GM cars. The ones that are winning are using poweradders against a bolton car and once H/C/I/E goes on the LSx cars you better have some serious work done to the stang, 4v or not.
LSx F-bodies ruled the 90's IMHO.
Thats because you couldn't.
The LS1 is actually smaller than the engine in your GT.
My criteria would be speed, potential, affordability, popularity.
1960's - The Pontiac GTO. Popularized and spawned the musclecar era. 1970's - Hemi Cuda. The pinnacle of of musclecars. Late 70's were too depressing to even consider. 1980's - Buick Grand National. Not as plentiful as the Fox cars, but about as good as it got for a factory musclecar in that time. 1990's - F-Body LS1 - All the same attributes as the old Fox, but better. 00's - Mustangs - The F-body gone after '02, the Mustang wins by default. Moreover, the S197 comes out and creates a frenzy. Corvettes are nice, but they are always on the fringe and are in a category by themselves.
Meeeehhh... I will admit the 98/99 model 4th Gen F-bodies are bad-ass, but given, as others have said, out of the box performance, and availability to the general populace, the 95 Viper GTS, and/or the 96 RT10 Vipers pretty much ruled the 90's. The The C4 and C5 Z06's were good, but no cigar when it came to the Vipers all around performance. Although, the Z06 does have an edge handling wise it just gets out-classed in a lot of ways by the middle 90's vipers. BOTH cars are just as available to the general populace, and both were and still are, priced pretty much the same unless you load them down with options. Sure, the F-bodies were definitely a mark to beat in performance, and I still LOVE the 4th gen formula T/A's and would like to own one some day. But mopar pretty much set the bar as far as an all around sports car with the vipers that GM didn't surpass until they released the C6 Z06's. ;-)
Printable Version
RE: Cars that Defined a Decade - 
Still the KING of S/S
