Posts: 2747
Joined: 6/8/2006 From: SF Bay Area Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: RodeoFlyer
Hi Jazzer,
Please do your research. Nothing is worse than when people give misinformation on this forum and all the others.
First - visit the Griggs Racing website. The cost for the street version of the SLA for the S197 chassis is $7,174.30. Add in sales tax if applicable, as well as shipping costs, and you are at 8k, as I am the one that stated it. For the road race version with rod ends, the cost shoots up to $10,186.26 . You will also notice that they have finally recognized and adressed the desire for a strut front end, as they now have a Koni coilover setup, which at @ $1400 is still a bit high for what you get, but it's good to see.
Second - I strongly urge you to drive a S197. They are completely different from the Fox/SN95 platform. I own both (93 Cobra). The fact that you neither own one nor have even driven one calls your credibility into question. The biggest problem with these cars is that too many people think that things that worked for the previous chassis carry over to this one which is far from the truth.
I'm not trying to be a prick (which I tend to do a lot), but this forum contains the largest accumulation of accurate information of all the S197 related forums. I would contend that most of us in here would strive to keep it that way.
Your right, I didn't realize the S197 set-up didn't even get a "K" member, bummer
As for this error calling my credibility into question, it is obvious to me Jazzer
It depends on how good the driver in the M3 is! I just got back from my first track day. Dunnville is a fairly complex track with an interesting mix of corners but not very high speeds - I got up to about 100 mph or so on the front straight. http://www.dunnvilleautodrome.com/images/track/stewartcircuitLABEL.pdf It was a blast. When we arrived at the track it was cold and blowing. Temperature all day didn't get above 50 to 55. My brother drove first to learn the track as he had never been on it before. Then it was my turn and it started raining - lot's of fun and a good way to learn throttle control! The car ran well and my brother's overall response was 'very impressive'. During my session with him he managed to pass most everything, including a new Corvette. During my sessions most everything passed me, except for an M3 who waved me by! This really shows that driver skill/desire counts for more than a lot of mods. One of my main goals while building the car was to make sure it was predicable and at the level I was operating at found it didn't have any vices. My brother lost it coming out of the Carousel corner and did a 360 into the grass. Fortunately everything was OK. The D Specs are great - roll in tighten ,them down, and away you go. The brakes never faded even though this track is hard on brakes - especially with a car as heavy as the S197 + SC. This was without the brake cooling ducts installed as the front tires are so large there is no room left for ducts. However I may have hard spotted the front rotors. The Roush SC performed like a dream and is nice and linear. Now to get more seat time - next stop Mosport GP circuit on June 25!
It depends on how good the driver in the M3 is! I just got back from my first track day. Dunnville is a fairly complex track with an interesting mix of corners but not very high speeds - I got up to about 100 mph or so on the front straight. http://www.dunnvilleautodrome.com/images/track/stewartcircuitLABEL.pdf It was a blast. When we arrived at the track it was cold and blowing. Temperature all day didn't get above 50 to 55. My brother drove first to learn the track as he had never been on it before. Then it was my turn and it started raining - lot's of fun and a good way to learn throttle control! The car ran well and my brother's overall response was 'very impressive'. During my session with him he managed to pass most everything, including a new Corvette. During my sessions most everything passed me, except for an M3 who waved me by! This really shows that driver skill/desire counts for more than a lot of mods. One of my main goals while building the car was to make sure it was predicable and at the level I was operating at found it didn't have any vices. My brother lost it coming out of the Carousel corner and did a 360 into the grass. Fortunately everything was OK. The D Specs are great - roll in tighten ,them down, and away you go. The brakes never faded even though this track is hard on brakes - especially with a car as heavy as the S197 + SC. This was without the brake cooling ducts installed as the front tires are so large there is no room left for ducts. However I may have hard spotted the front rotors. The Roush SC performed like a dream and is nice and linear. Now to get more seat time - next stop Mosport GP circuit on June 25! Car looks good, Sleeper, How's the wheel/tire combination working out? Any clearance issues? If I'm not mistaken, those rims are 45mm offset? Think 42mm would clear? (little more than 1/8" ?) Way to go, and thanks for the follow-up.
Car looks good Sleeper. How is the tire/rim combination working out with the 285's? Any interfearance issues to speak of? If I'm not mistaken, the Steedas are 18x9.5 x 45mm offset? They look like they fit pretty well, but can't say about inside clearance, especially in a turn. I'm looking at some 18x9.5's with 42mm which would move the wheel/tire a little more than 1/8" to the inside. Way to go and thanks for the follow up.
< Message edited by steelcomp -- 5/19/2008 11:24:25 PM >
i've tried to avoid this thread but it won't go away...
first: i've never raced on a track. i have taken a 40-hour high-speed operations training course. i know, "whoopee"... but what matters most is i've actually driven a m3 (granted an e36 generation) and numerous other bmw's.
(oh yeah, i slept at a holiday inn before typing this and i do read a lot of car magazines. something about the opinion of the editors of every magazine, including professional drivers, and an industry wide, well, awe, of bmw's handling performance, that re-enforces my own experience and thus leads me to some wild conclusions...)
now, i love my mustang. having said that, every time i drive a bmw i start running the numbers in my head on how to make it financially possible to own one and every time it pains me to give up the keys...
some have posted videos of mustangs passing bmw's on the track... ok, i'm sure no one has ever seen a bmw pass a mustang on the track. (sarcasm)
i know, i know, "well, it was just to prove it is possible." well... duh! when i was 16 i took my mom's 87 chevy nova (basically a rebadged corolla) and beat people in street races because, being young and stupid, i didn't let off the pedal until i caught back up with them and passed them... (which is what i considered a win... and still do...)
how many times have you heard a driver in the winner's circle say, "well, i knew i didn't have the fastest car, but..."
so in terms of racing (where i think we can all agree, and as some have already pointed out, the ability of the driver, and often times luck, is actually more important then the capability of the car) the question posed by the OP is really, well, somewhat naive. no offense, OP, keep reading if you are...
however, if you turn it into a talk about track or lap times, where we take two cars and take out the x-factor of the driver, which was my mindset from the get-go, then the questions posed by the OP become much more interesting.
that is to say, you could put me in a f1 car and put michael schumacher in a mustang and put us both on the nürburgring and i'm positive he will get the checker.
but the OP, from my interpretation, wasn't talking drivers. he was talking mustang vs m3/s4.
so how do you talk just cars? easy, you take out all the x-factors... the biggest being the driver.
also, the OP stated a "new m3". it is true what someone stated, the e46 generation of m3's were not extremely fast in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. with the new e90 it's a whole different ball game.
so it all boils down to this:
can a stock mustang compete with e46 m3s on a race track with a bunch of drivers with differing levels of skill? sure... duh, easy one. a modified mustang? even better.
but what about: same driver... stock mustang vs e46 m3? well, now that's a different story. i say m3 easily. mustang with modified suspension but no significant powertrain upgrades? probably still the m3.
can a modified mustang (modified as the OP listed and then some) compete with a e90 m3 given equally skilled drivers? not without expensive suspension/wheel/tire mods and not without forced induction.
if i'm an idiot please tell me so... (actually there's already a line for that, but the line for "why" is much shorter!)
i've tried to avoid this thread but it won't go away...
first: i've never raced on a track. i have taken a 40-hour high-speed operations training course. i know, "whoopee"... but what matters most is i've actually driven a m3 (granted an e36 generation) and numerous other bmw's.
(oh yeah, i slept at a holiday inn before typing this and i do read a lot of car magazines. something about the opinion of the editors of every magazine, including professional drivers, and an industry wide, well, awe, of bmw's handling performance, that re-enforces my own experience and thus leads me to some wild conclusions...)
now, i love my mustang. having said that, every time i drive a bmw i start running the numbers in my head on how to make it financially possible to own one and every time it pains me to give up the keys...
some have posted videos of mustangs passing bmw's on the track... ok, i'm sure no one has ever seen a bmw pass a mustang on the track. (sarcasm)
i know, i know, "well, it was just to prove it is possible." well... duh! when i was 16 i took my mom's 87 chevy nova (basically a rebadged corolla) and beat people in street races because, being young and stupid, i didn't let off the pedal until i caught back up with them and passed them... (which is what i considered a win... and still do...)
how many times have you heard a driver in the winner's circle say, "well, i knew i didn't have the fastest car, but..."
so in terms of racing (where i think we can all agree, and as some have already pointed out, the ability of the driver, and often times luck, is actually more important then the capability of the car) the question posed by the OP is really, well, somewhat naive. no offense, OP, keep reading if you are...
however, if you turn it into a talk about track or lap times, where we take two cars and take out the x-factor of the driver, which was my mindset from the get-go, then the questions posed by the OP become much more interesting.
that is to say, you could put me in a f1 car and put michael schumacher in a mustang and put us both on the nürburgring and i'm positive he will get the checker.
but the OP, from my interpretation, wasn't talking drivers. he was talking mustang vs m3/s4.
so how do you talk just cars? easy, you take out all the x-factors... the biggest being the driver.
also, the OP stated a "new m3". it is true what someone stated, the e46 generation of m3's were not extremely fast in terms of 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. with the new e90 it's a whole different ball game.
so it all boils down to this:
can a stock mustang compete with e46 m3s on a race track with a bunch of drivers with differing levels of skill? sure... duh, easy one. a modified mustang? even better.
but what about: same driver... stock mustang vs e46 m3? well, now that's a different story. i say m3 easily. mustang with modified suspension but no significant powertrain upgrades? probably still the m3.
can a modified mustang (modified as the OP listed and then some) compete with a e90 m3 given equally skilled drivers? not without expensive suspension/wheel/tire mods and not without forced induction.
if i'm an idiot please tell me so... (actually there's already a line for that, but the line for "why" is much shorter!)
The question was how much to "compete" with an M3 in the twisties. Not specified on a race track or the street, so a little vague, there. You make some good points, but I'm wondering if you've ever driven a well set up S197 Mustang? Hell, just throw some Konis and some PS2's on it and you're almost (90%) there. Funny thing is, the Mustang's front suspension is pretty much designed after the BMW. The big difference is the rear, where the BMW has IRS, and a well designed one at that. Having said that, if you gave me the difference in cost between an M3 and an S197GT and invested that in the GT, I'd return to you a car that would drive around the BMW and put change in your pocket. The biggest thing I love about beating an M (trashed an M5 just this AM) is the look on most M driver's faces as they get trounced by a lowly Mustang. Next years M3 is making 400hp, but at the expense of doing it at over 8000rpm. That's rediculous for any regularly driven street car, and will seperate even further the guys driving BMR's for status vs. the real drivers. AFAIC, BMW's are terribly over-rated, over priced, and typically maintenance and repair nightmares. I've beat the crap out of my 07 GT for 55K mi with yet a single issue, other than my constant playing with the suspension and tweaking on the engine. We'll see what the reliability issues are with the new 400hp, 8000+rpm M3...and the price tag. What I will say is it's amazing how many 3 and 5 series BMW's you see on the roads these days. What, are they giving those things away?? Personally, I'd much rather have an AMG.
[/quote] Car looks good Sleeper. How is the tire/rim combination working out with the 285's? Any interfearance issues to speak of? If I'm not mistaken, the Steedas are 18x9.5 x 45mm offset? They look like they fit pretty well, but can't say about inside clearance, especially in a turn. I'm looking at some 18x9.5's with 42mm which would move the wheel/tire a little more than 1/8" to the inside. Way to go and thanks for the follow up. [/quote]
Steelcomp
You are correct the Steeda rims are 18 x 9.5 with a 45 mm offset. When the car was at stock height there was no indication of rubbing. After lowering with Steeda Competition springs there is a very slight rubbing on the inner fender liners on full lock. I could probably get rid of it by cutting back the liner a bit if I wanted to.
The main problem is that there does not appear to be enough room left anywhere for the brake cooling duct!
< Message edited by Sleeper_08 -- 5/20/2008 2:54:21 AM >
_____________________________
White 08 GT Roush S/C 445 HP/KDW2 285/40/18 tires/18 x 9.5 wheels Steeda Ultralites/ Steeda Competition springs/D Specs/LCA/Adj UCA & Mnt/AdjPHB/PHB brc/Upper strut mnts/GT500 Brake Kit/GT500 Front LCA/X5 Ball Jnt/Bmp Str + more
ORIGINAL: steelcomp The question was how much to "compete" with an M3 in the twisties. Not specified on a race track or the street, so a little vague, there. You make some good points, but I'm wondering if you've ever driven a well set up S197 Mustang? Hell, just throw some Konis and some PS2's on it and you're almost (90%) there. Funny thing is, the Mustang's front suspension is pretty much designed after the BMW. The big difference is the rear, where the BMW has IRS, and a well designed one at that. Having said that, if you gave me the difference in cost between an M3 and an S197GT and invested that in the GT, I'd return to you a car that would drive around the BMW and put change in your pocket. The biggest thing I love about beating an M (trashed an M5 just this AM) is the look on most M driver's faces as they get trounced by a lowly Mustang. Next years M3 is making 400hp, but at the expense of doing it at over 8000rpm. That's rediculous for any regularly driven street car, and will seperate even further the guys driving BMR's for status vs. the real drivers. AFAIC, BMW's are terribly over-rated, over priced, and typically maintenance and repair nightmares. I've beat the crap out of my 07 GT for 55K mi with yet a single issue, other than my constant playing with the suspension and tweaking on the engine. We'll see what the reliability issues are with the new 400hp, 8000+rpm M3...and the price tag. What I will say is it's amazing how many 3 and 5 series BMW's you see on the roads these days. What, are they giving those things away?? Personally, I'd much rather have an AMG.
you also make some good points. actually, some points i would have made myself but for brevity, or at least for the attempt there of...
he actually says, "compete n' beat late model porsches, Audi S Series, or BMW M series in the twisties." so, i agree, kind of vague.
i think we all agree that on a race track with different drivers of differing skills it doesn't take much to make the s197 mustang capable of competing and beating e46 m3's. i like to think my mustang is pretty well sorted with the few mods i've done. i am 100% satisfied with my cars ability even on stock wheels/tires as it will take the turns as fast as i care to attack them. just a couple of weeks ago i finally took my car out to some real twisties on a backroad. i got lucky and didn't have any grandmas in front of me and no sheriff's deputies! 20+ minutes of s-curves, apexes, and elevation changes, and shifting from 2-3-4 and slaming on the brakes and doing it all over again! (chuckled as i looked at my gps map trying to keep up.) i was actually physically tired and had the most fun in a car i've had in a looooong time! (for all you hoosiers, SR 45 N out of Bloomington, and if you aren't satisfied after that, take 135 N towards Indy and then take SR 44 W to Martinsville, watch out for sport bikes and diesel pickups w/trailers taking corners too fast and coming into your lane... personal experience...)
having said that, there is just something about the confidence a bmw gives you in the twisties. it's like, "was that all?" while the mustang, especially stock, is very nervous and skittish. especially in uneven pavement. that's where that extra money comes in!
having said that... i don't own a bmw exactly for some of the points you bring up. the extreme value of a mustang (also throw in my 200 over invoice/0% for 72 mos), the maintenance costs of a bmw (especially for the m-series cars), reliability issues, etc...
my main problem with the scenario many people give, like your M5 kill this morning, is we only know your side of the story. what would the M5 guy say? how many times have i not taken the bait on a street race and some guy tells his friends, "i slayed a mustang gt this morning!"
i know from my own experience i've got kills that came down to one thing. brass balls. the faster car had a driver that was too scared (or smart) to go any faster.
that's why i bring up track/lap times with the same driver because then we are talking cars!
one last thing. there is no shame to admit that the mustang is what it is! i know you are all handling freaks on a mustang forum, but it's ok to admit that the mustang will just never have the handling feel, and will never have the ability to instill the feeling of confidence, that a $70k e90 bmw can... it's like to talk about how great the bmw is, is to somehow diminish the mustang... it's like when i make a compliment about a beautiful actress on tv, my wife then somehow equates that to me saying she is ugly!!
(except angelina jolie, even my wife says, "damn that girl is fine..")
< Message edited by timothyrw -- 5/20/2008 8:59:39 AM >
one last thing. there is no shame to admit that the mustang is what it is! i know you are all handling freaks on a mustang forum, but it's ok to admit that the mustang will just never have the handling feel, and will never have the ability to instill the feeling of confidence, that a $70k e90 bmw can... it's like to talk about how great the bmw is, is to somehow diminish the mustang...
Not matching the "feel" I'll give you. But I think there's room for argument concerning confidence, at least over pavement that's at least reasonably decent and once you've made the right basic tweaks. One of the easiest cars that I've ever hopped into and driven hard right away was another SCCA member's ESP-level 4th generation F-body at an auto-X a while back. One run used for basic familiarization with the car and the course and then get down to business. Stick axle and all, I had zero previous experience in that chassis (hadn't even ridden in one before then, actually) and I stayed within about a second of the car owner's time until the last run. That's as good a demonstration of confidence-inspiring as you're likely to find. That's relevant because the basic S197 chassis is at least that good, based on recent auto-X results where you know the top folks are really good, really trying, and that the S197 drivers have had several years fewer in which to have found all the little tweaks.
Norm.
< Message edited by Norm Peterson -- 5/20/2008 9:59:39 AM >
_____________________________
08 GT Premium Black/Light Graphite, stick, un-FStock weenie-EP 626/V6, Prepared just enough, sometimes
My last car was an Audi S4. They do handle really, really well. In fact that car would pretty much beat a stock Mustang GT in everything (handle, interior, qualitity, braking, and maybe even give it a run in a drag race). What the Audi lacks... style. The Mustang looks better, sounds better. And Ford was shooting for something different with the Mustang, it is much more affordable. A new S4 cost upwards of 2 new Mustangs. A stock Mustang is a starting point. Do your mods to what you like. They are totally different cars. I love my Mustang, just like all the Mustang I had before. I miss the S4 sometimes, but still like the muscle car feel and high reliablility of the Mustang. Just my 2 cents
No one doubts that stock for stock the Mustang will lose out to top end performance sedans like the M3 or S4. The question posed was how much does it cost to compete with them in the twisties.
I think it is clear that it doesn't take much money put into the suspension to compete with them in the twisties. Combine that with the Mustang's better power band (i.e. torque!) and you have a car that will hold its own in the twisties.
Printable Version
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 
) 
