Thanks - I'll check these out. I didn't think about using a normal digital camera, good idea, I thought you'd need a video camera.
EDIT: I just ordered the $45 version of the Cruise cam...thanks again!
No problem. This camera wasn't original with me--I got the tip from someone on cornercarvers who is somewhat of a video expert. I had been using an Aiptek and it is an absolute piece of dung compared to this one.
How much to compete with not one, but two M3's? Well, I have Eibach Prokits, Tokicos, FRPP Sway bars, BMR LCA's, some misc. bracing, Maximum Motorsports camber plates, Steeda camber plates...oh, and not to stoke the "Strano Wars"--but I am using his very nice swaybar endlinks. Total: <$2,000
Wheels/tires: Enkei RP03's and Nitto 555RII's: another ~$2,000
How much to compete with not one, but two M3's? Well, I have Eibach Prokits, Tokicos, FRPP Sway bars, BMR LCA's, some misc. bracing, Maximum Motorsports camber plates, Steeda camber plates...oh, and not to stoke the "Strano Wars"--but I am using his very nice swaybar endlinks. Total: <$2,000
Wheels/tires: Enkei RP03's and Nitto 555RII's: another ~$2,000
What tokico's? FRPP sways front and rear? 18" wheels?
Also, noticed in the video that the Dodge Viper was pulling on you. What are your power mods? Heard the exhaust, any power adders?
Nice post.
Tokico D-specs. FRPP front and rear sways. 17x9.5 wheels (Enkei RP03).
Oh yeah, the Viper can pull on pretty much any car out there. It's a handful, though. I've got the standard bolt-ons: JLT intake w/ a Bamachips 93 octane performance tune, CMCV deletes, underdrive pullies, and the FRPP axleback (the stingers). Enough power to have fun.
What's up, everyone! Finally decided to register here--nice forum.
Nice vid slaya. Nice driving as well. Nice and smooth. Well, after 52K mi I just finished the second round of upgrades on my suspension. The list is now as follows: I started with Spohn combo rear LCA's and PHB, BMR spherical UCA and mount, poly diff bushing PHB support and LCA relocate brkts, double adjustable Konis, and Ground Control adjustable spring kit, and stayed with the stock AR bar. In front I drilled my stock AR bar to make it adjustable and moved the link to the center hole (approx 1.25 in from the stock location...somewhere near a 20-25% increase in rate) I have the CG double adjustable Koni coilovers with their adjustable plates and Steeda LCA bushing supports (the black ones) and Quantum brake ducts. The car was really responsive, and had some slight static understeer, but nothing that was unreasonable. I'm running 255/45 Nittos on stock 18" Bullits. Spring rates are 420 front, 200 rear. Some may say this is way too much bias and too stiff in the front, but not IMO. Ride height was 27" to the front fender lip from the ground, 27-1/4" rear. 1.7* neg camber, 1/16" toe in. Caster is what it is, somewhere near 8*. At this ride height, the BMR UCA needed to be turned over so as not to hit the floor pan. Some slight clearancing was needed to not interfere with the rear housing, but it was inconsequential. I ran it in the upper hole of the mount, not the lower. The lower hole supposedly improved the instant center, but the angularity of the too-short UCA was unacceptable. I killed a lot of expensive handlers with this setup, but mostly (my guess) due to driving, and the willingness to hang it out. I had a weekend at Buttonwillow and the car did very well for a 255 tire. Power adders are the typical bolt-ons; C&L race int., Brenspeed 91 (CA) tune, plate deletes, UDP's, Magnaflow axle-backs, and I have a tune for 110 if I want to run race gas. New upgrades are GT500 front LCA's, Steeda bump steer kit and front LCA relocate, and my own AR bar end links. I retained the Steeda bushing supports. In back I replaced the BMR UCA with the Steeda competition arm and mount which is a longer assembly than stock...much needed improvement. I'm still running the stock AR bars, as I believe for the type of driving I do, I'd rather have more spring and less bar than the other way around. The car is VERY flat, and with the new geometry has almost perfectly neutral steering. The bumpsteer improvement is most noticeable, and there's still room for improvement there. I started with a good "guess" on the spacers, and haven't had a chance to actually check the bump steer yet. I increased the camber to 1.9 driver side. 1.8 pass. (with me in the seat). One thing to note...I had centered my rear end measuring from the fender lips, then double checking from the inner fender to the brake rotor making it equal on both sides. At the alignment rack, the rear end was out of alignment with the front over .2 degrees which equated to more than 1/4". When I cross-taped using more reliable points under the car, it was verified. My bad. Now, with the rear within .02 deg, the tires aren't close to being centered between the rear fender lips. The car is a different car all together. Much more stable, much better turn in, and it seems as if the ackerman is better. The previous understeer is all but gone and cornering stability and traction is much better, especially tight 1-2 corners on acceleration out of the corner. High speed cornering is much more confident with the bump steer eliminated and the new geometry. The Steeda rear UCA was barely hitting the floor pan under hard bumps, so I raised the ride height 1/8" all the way around...still pretty low for the street. I may at some point get under there and create a little "clearance" for the UCA. After one week, I'm still gathering info on the upgrades, but it's nice to spend this kind of $ and time on the car and have such positive results. Still to come are 285/40 rear, 275/40 fronts on YTBD rims and better brakes. I'm really holding out on any true analysis of the upgrades until then, as that's going to change everything. That's it for now.
< Message edited by steelcomp -- 4/27/2008 10:16:22 PM >
I'm really struggling with tire sizes. As much as I know how bigger tires on the rear tend to exaggerate the push, there's still the "look" factor. With the tires the same size front and rear, from some angles it just always seems to look like the rear tires are smaller than the front. Lets face it, these are some stylish cars, and looks does matter to a certain degree. I'm not throwing 50 lbs. of 20's on it for sure. I also don't think one size on the rear is going to throw the handling out the door, either, especially when I boost the HP to where I want to go.
< Message edited by steelcomp -- 4/28/2008 6:54:43 AM >
I'm really struggling with tire sizes. As much as I know how bigger tires on the rear tend to exaggerate the push, there's still the "look" factor. With the tires the same size front and rear, from some angles it just always seems to look like the rear tires are smaller than the front. Lets face it, these are some stylish cars, and looks does matter to a certain degree. I'm not throwing 50 lbs. of 20's on it for sure. I also don't think one size on the rear is going to throw the handling out the door, either, especially when I boost the HP to where I want to go.
In my case one of the main considerations was being able to rotate back to front to even up the tire wear and as 285/40/18 seemed to be the biggest that would go on the front that set the size. I agree though after seeing the car with them on the rears do appear 'smaller'.
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White 08 GT Roush S/C 445 HP/KDW2 285/40/18 tires/18 x 9.5 wheels Steeda Ultralites/ Steeda Competition springs/D Specs/LCA/Adj UCA & Mnt/AdjPHB/PHB brc/Upper strut mnts/GT500 Brake Kit/GT500 Front LCA/X5 Ball Jnt/Bmp Str + more
Sorry to interrupt your discussion gentlemen but, the push effect generated by a staggered wheel/tire combo can be counteracted with a little rear sway bar increase or front bar decrease?
Sorry to interrupt your discussion gentlemen but, the push effect generated by a staggered wheel/tire combo can be counteracted with a little rear sway bar increase or front bar decrease?
Or an application of the right foot.
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White 08 GT Roush S/C 445 HP/KDW2 285/40/18 tires/18 x 9.5 wheels Steeda Ultralites/ Steeda Competition springs/D Specs/LCA/Adj UCA & Mnt/AdjPHB/PHB brc/Upper strut mnts/GT500 Brake Kit/GT500 Front LCA/X5 Ball Jnt/Bmp Str + more
Sorry to interrupt your discussion gentlemen but, the push effect generated by a staggered wheel/tire combo can be counteracted with a little rear sway bar increase or front bar decrease?
Or an application of the right foot.
I tend to like a neutral balanced car or a car tending to be a little loose.
My limited setup experience went down the drain once I sold my old fox but this S197 is a whole new animal, its the first car I've ever owned where I used a staggered wheel setup. My local track is mostly a hairpin festival leaving just one somehow fast turn when you can really see what the car can do so when I tested it I came back home with more doubts than answers.
So I tried the car in a couple of wide fast turns on the street I have access too and was really surprised how the car handle, I have 255/285 with just a few suspension bolt ons and steeda bars and see now that the car can get really tail happy if you abuse your right foot.
Even so, I still can't understand how the FR500 does not uses a rear sway bar and also read that Rodeo doesn't too.
Sorry to interrupt your discussion gentlemen but, the push effect generated by a staggered wheel/tire combo can be counteracted with a little rear sway bar increase or front bar decrease?
But adding more rear bar takes grip from the rear, which you can do for balance but it's preferred to add it to the misbehaving end instead. Going smaller on the front bar may or may not help, and I don't think it will. You soften wheel rate, which can help if that's the reason for the push, but you also allow the car to roll more and might well lose contact patch as the car looses camber dynamically. And the more the front rolls the more the inside rear wheel is unloaded.
I personally don't want the heavy end of the car to be running the smaller tires.
ORIGINAL: Sam Strano But adding more rear bar takes grip from the rear, which you can do for balance but it's preferred to add it to the misbehaving end instead. Going smaller on the front bar may or may not help, and I don't think it will. You soften wheel rate, which can help if that's the reason for the push, but you also allow the car to roll more and might well lose contact patch as the car looses camber dynamically. And the more the front rolls the more the inside rear wheel is unloaded.
I personally don't want the heavy end of the car to be running the smaller tires.
I see that but, this is not a race purpose car, in that case I would have gone to the same sizes all around, I'll visit the track just a couple of times a year and just for fun so I just wanted a street car that looked good, runs well (have my turbo setup here waiting for time to install) and handle nice.
I'm still undecided on installing the bump steer kit I got, I have H&R sports front and it just lowered less than an inch so I thought I may not need them but on the track while braking it feels a little funny so I may give them a try.
What do you think?
< Message edited by Lito -- 4/28/2008 5:50:00 PM >
Well, again, it pretty much boils down to appplication and personal preference. If you've ever read anything by Herb Adams and/or Dick Guldstrand, you'd see they both have completely diffferent "theories" about suspension tuning, yet were both very successful. My learning has tought me there is no black and white answer to any of this. The answers are usually in the grey areas, otherwise everyone would be doing the exact same thing, and having the same results (save driver differences). I've found there is a balance between spring rates and bar rates, and each have their task. Some say run the softest spring you can and let the AR bars do the work. That works to a point, especially on a race track, but on the street or highway, I've found that too stiff a bar reduces the independance of the suspension. In a bumpy corner, this isn't good. Go-carts corner fantastically with no suspension to speak of, untill they hit a bump. Increasing the rear bar to "balance" the "handling" may do just that, but ultimate grip will most likely suffer. If my car is understeering, I don't want to reduce rear grip, I want to increase front. I made a small change today and had an interesting result. With 420# springs up front, my car is firm, to say the least. I've been running with my DA Konis about 3/4 turn from stiff on the rebound up front, (two clicks tight on compression) and I've always expected that with the springs, it should be a little "firm" and it worked very well. However, since I did the mods this last week with the front LCA upgrade, relocate, and the bump steer kit, it seemed so much "nicer" that I thought I'd back off the front damping a little and see what happens. I stopped on my way home (over the San Marcos Pass) and backed off 1/8 turn on the rebound on the front only, and what a difference! The ride actually became comfortable, and the front and rear seemed much more in balance. Not in a loose or tight sense, just in movement over bumps, things like that. The cornering didn't suffer one bit, nor did the body roll increase noticably. Steering seemed just as responsive, but what was surprising was the car just felt "better". Sometimes less is more. I'm looking forward to tomorrow when I can push it some and see what really changed, and if I lost anything closer to the edge. I keep thinking I should put aftermarket AR bars on this thing, but my end thought is "why"?
INSTRUCTIONS: This is a two part pop quiz. Please answer questions 1 & 2, and include war stories if you have them that substantiate your answers.
Pop Quiz Question # 1: Which of the below options, at minimum, is needed to get an '05 stang on 20" rims to compete n' beat late model porsches, Audi S Series, or BMW M series in the twisties.
Will Option #1 do it: (I currently have this.) 1. Lowering Springs (Ford Racing springs) 2. Set of nice rubber 245front/275 rear (Nitto Extremes)
Will Option #2 do it: 1. All the above 2. Rear Sway bar 3. Lower control arms
Will Option #3 do it: 1. All the above 2. Upgraded shocks (ie. Tokico D-specs) 3. Adjustable Panhard Bar
Pop Quiz Question # 2: Which of the above options, at minimum, is needed to get an '05 stang on 20" rims to compete n' beat modified import class rides (Honda, Acura, Nissan Z's & Infinity's) in the twisties.
I just don't want to get burned by a honda in some hair pins. I couldn't look at myself in the mirror afterwards. LOL.
I started this thread--which has really turned out to be an excellent shared source of handling knowledge--with the idea of modifying my ride to get better handling so I could drive faster, better.
In answering my own pop quiz: I choose option 3 (at least as a good place to start).
Today I personally finished my installation of:
1. Tokico D-specs shocks/struts (adjusted to full hard) 2. BMR PH Bar 3. Ebach rear sway bar 4. Steeda adj. UCA 5. Steeda LCAs
I purchased all these parts BRAND NEW IN BOX from two very nice local mustang-owning guys who ordered the parts new and ended up wanting slightly different set ups. I purchased all the above parts brand new for $980 + one tank of gas (drove 200 super-fun miles to pick up the parts).
I have never worked on my cars, have limited mechanical knowledge and was able to install everything in roughly two days.
First Test Drive: I was going up to the mountain passes of Skyline Blvd, but on my way up the weather wasn't great and the traffic was worse. So I turn around and as I do so around the corner behind me a C5 Corvette pulls up. I drive down the road a bit and take a turn onto a great road along the reservoir (2 miles long,high speed twisty, doesn't really lead anywhere, has no traffic, & is beautifully paved). To my pleasant surprise the C5 Corvette followed me. As I turned onto this road I gun it and see the Corvette follow suit - 45mph-->100mph. Hit the twisties hard and fast and the Corvette was pacing and fell back. HOWEVER, after pulling away from the Corvette, up ahead I see two bikers pulled over, so I hit the brakes and cool back down. When I hit the breaks IMO the stock calipers felt a bit sluggish. Made me think of aftermarket rotors/pads.
All in all, it feels great!!! The car feels much more confidence inspiring and is stiffer with significantly less roll.
Dramatic improvement over stock.
So, having started this thread, I can now say that my car handles and will give some of the big $$$ cars a run for the money!!!!!
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Brenspeed tuned Stage III Saleen VI s/c, Steeda CAI, 4.10''s, Steeda Triax, JBA Shorties, Magnaflow exhaust w/ SLP catbacks, FR Springs, 20''s w/ Nitto555''s, Tokico D-Specs, Eibach Rear Sway, Steeda UCA & LCAs, BMR PH Bar
Posts: 2746
Joined: 6/8/2006 From: SF Bay Area Status: offline
Well, I am bummed I didn't find this post until just last night. Only able to read the first three pages (some wonderful stuff in those pages, but need to get on makin' some breakfast for my gal). I would like to throw my $.02 into the OP if I may, but first a little about why I think I am at least qualified to respond to some other posts here.
Much, much very usefull info, and some great posts here. I have had my car completely re-suspended over a year ago by Griggs Racing. Griggs suspension has been mentioned several times. Mostly good reviews, but one that it is overly priced. I don't know, maybe it is, but not $8k for SLA's as one said. To have SLA's (short-long arms), upper control arms in front, you need many non-stock uprades including "K" member. I am running a 100% Griggs Racing GR-40 system on my '02 Saleen. I realize that it is NOT the same platform as the S197, but have spoken to John and Bruce Griggs pretty extensively on the differences between the two. For those that don't know what that entails, here you go:
severe-duty adjustable lower control arms (front) Heavy duty tubular anti-roll bar tubular "K" member upper and lower frame support. ***HERE*** is a pic of how well it works. CC plates coil-overs at all four corners Heavy-duty adjustable PH bar and is parallel with axle at ride hight torque arm 100% (literally) spherical (Heim joint) suspension bushings except axle end of rear LCA's (which are eurothane)
I have, so far, held my own during twisties runs with Z06's and BMW's. I, as others have said, have let some go as I felt he/she was just pushing too hard, and risking injury to many, including me . I have not driven an S197, much less a suspended one. I know the frame on one does not need the support mine did, but can be greatly improved by some upgrades.
If you look in my sig pics, you will see many pics of the work done. You will find a pic of "The Fort Ross Twisties" located approx. 90 miles N of San Francisco on HWY 1. I travel this stretch from GG Bridge, to Fort Bragg regularly. I, as mentioned to Stoenr in another section, run this stretch at an even 50 MPH. Not an exaggeration, and DO NOT CROSS ANY LINES. My car holds the road extremely well, and DOES NOT RIDE ROUGHER THAN SALEEN SUSPENSION. It is a misunderstanding that you need to have ultra-stiff suspension to have a nice handling car. The frame is a MAJOR component in good cornering, and without a solid one, you will never compete with any true road car (Porsche, M3, Z06, etc...). Fortunately the S197 has a wonderful frame, and needs far less work than mine did to turn heads on the twisties.
As to OP, you can hold your own pretty well against a BMW or Vette. But, as many have said, it is mostly driver related. Any nice upgrade of LCA's (referring to rears, mostly) adj. aftermarket PH bar, or better yet, Watts-link. "K" member, and good rubber on the road, are going to get you as far as you can go on the Mustang platform. If you want to TRULEY handle like Audi S or M series, you better go buy one.
Please do your research. Nothing is worse than when people give misinformation on this forum and all the others.
First - visit the Griggs Racing website. The cost for the street version of the SLA for the S197 chassis is $7,174.30. Add in sales tax if applicable, as well as shipping costs, and you are at 8k, as I am the one that stated it. For the road race version with rod ends, the cost shoots up to $10,186.26 . You will also notice that they have finally recognized and adressed the desire for a strut front end, as they now have a Koni coilover setup, which at @ $1400 is still a bit high for what you get, but it's good to see.
Second - I strongly urge you to drive a S197. They are completely different from the Fox/SN95 platform. I own both (93 Cobra). The fact that you neither own one nor have even driven one calls your credibility into question. The biggest problem with these cars is that too many people think that things that worked for the previous chassis carry over to this one which is far from the truth.
I'm not trying to be a prick (which I tend to do a lot), but this forum contains the largest accumulation of accurate information of all the S197 related forums. I would contend that most of us in here would strive to keep it that way.
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06' GT - NASA SoCal #82 TTB
Thanks to Wild Pony Motorsports, Ross Murray, and KW Suspension
3rd place (x2) - California Speedway 3/08 1st place - Buttonwillow Raceway 4/08
Which BMR panhard rod did you get? If it's the poly/poly one - throw it away. The adjustment in the center of the bar isn't a smart design. There's a lot of load induced there. You would be better served by a rod end/rod end one anyway. You wont get any NVH from a panhard with rod ends. Taking out the slop of the poly bushings will give you a much better feel.
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06' GT - NASA SoCal #82 TTB
Thanks to Wild Pony Motorsports, Ross Murray, and KW Suspension
3rd place (x2) - California Speedway 3/08 1st place - Buttonwillow Raceway 4/08
Printable Version
RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 
I also don't think one size on the rear is going to throw the handling out the door, either, especially when I boost the HP to where I want to go.
. I have not driven an S197, much less a suspended one. I know the frame on one does not need the support mine did, but can be greatly improved by some upgrades. 
