Wow. There was a lot of platform underconfidence in the earlier threads. I have two words for all of you, GRIGGS RACING. The package might be $15g's, but show me another streetable package that can pull 1.5g's in lateral acceleration. This package would most likely murder other cars on the track. http://gr40.com/
Hi ndgoalie35,
There is nothing preventing the S197 chassis from being developed into a car that can beat an E46 M3 or 997 series 911's except for money. With class rules imposed these cars are racing in Grand-Am Koni Challenge Series heads up with very entertaining results. Of course the S197 Mustang being raced is a special version of the car but the suspension differs little from the basic car we drive with the exception of the use of true coilovers for the rear axle. The rest of the suspension mods are literally all items you can buy over the counter from Ford or Steeda. The S197 based race cars have a slight weight disadvantage imposed by the rules to help slow them down along with a crippling now manditory 3.55 rear axle ratio but the street cars are not that far apart in terms of weight and one of the first things people seem to change around here is the rear axle gear ratio.
Griggs makes some interesting stuff if you have more money than you should be spending on an S197. O.K. for a dedcated track car I'm sure it works O.K. and can likely be made to work pretty well but on the street the GR40 suspension will have you begging for mercy. Street cars need to be durable and require minimal inspection and maintainence. Street cars also require good isolation and adequate suspension travel to reasonably and confortably traverse the daily dips, driveways and bumps on just about every road in America these days. I don't see this stuff described or pictured in the GR40 suspension any place even though they say they have a street car version. But IMO you can go just as fast with cheaper stuff all things being equal.
HTH!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
F1Fan's name is Chip, and most of us in here know that. He has been here for years, whereas you have been here for months.
He has likely installed more S197 sytems and driven them than you have.
Hi RF,
Yup that's me but I don't know if I have installed more S197 suspensions than Sam has I've only done a few dozen cars in my garage and almost all of them are street cars with an interest in weekend track events with no rules except for safety equipment. I've done some brake work too but primarily I'm focused on S197GT suspensions and help folks to decide what they want to do and what they wish their car could do better. Some of these guys are not very experienced drivers and some have a lot of track experience and years of canyon running which is where I started out. Actually I started out on Mulholland and then worked my way up to running PCH from L.A. to S.F in one sitting. It's the longest freaking orgasm you can have trust me.
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ORIGINAL: RodeoFlyer I don't need to tell you that road racing setups and autocross setups have as amny differences as they do similarities. How much road racing experience do you have?
I presume that Chip has more experience with shocks than you have and more than I care about. I'm sure he will be responding shortly and at length. I loved my Bilsteins, which was against Chip's opinion but worked well for me. The car rode like sh*t but handled well. I've also driven a Saleen, ridden in a Roush, and driven on Bilsteins, Tokicos, and FRPP. And Koni's.
Well a lot of my shock experience is really not all that interesting. Most of my damper experience is with looking at the dyno charts Koni or Bilstein would send us with the dampers they just rebuilt or revalved and making sure that they matched up with what we sent them and if any changes were requested that those changes showed up in the new dyno sheets and matching up springs that should work with them, sticking them in a car and sending the driver back out to see what he thinks and what the segment times tell us. It's not all that glorious, more like brut force development track work. But I got a good feel for how dampers need to work and that every car and every driver is different. These sometimes very small differences all add up on the race track but on the street getting pretty close is generaly enough because the very next corner is different than the last one and in the real world there is too much variation to get so nit-picky. There are a finite number of turns on a race track. On the street it's sort of like guessing which strain of flu you need to produce a vacine for 8 or 9 months in advance of the flu season. You know it's the flu you just don't know which one.
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ORIGINAL: RodeoFlyer Chip and I often have different opinions all the time because what we do is different. He likes a cozy but spirited ride in Mullholland on Sundays. I like giving Corvettes a thank-you wave after they give me a point by. You are a successful cone chaser. ModAddict likes doing wheelies and not turning. Some guys like big blingy unprung weight killing 20's. We're all DIFFERENT.
I used to work with road racers and they were nuts, oh, no offense there. Hey, I need a reasonably comfortable car because it's hard to go fast when the road is bumpy and the car is set up too stiff and the tires are not on the ground. I also like to run up PCH from L.A. to S.F. or Monterey anyway in a single sitting. Sometimes I just drive up to the City to eat and turnaround to drive back to L.A. in the same day. You would be amazed at some of the great racing drivers and car people I have meet and run with some speed up PCH going to the Monterey Historics and Pebble Beach Concours in August! I always manage to find a few Porsches, Corvettes and the occassional Ferrari to run with and we very frequently will stop as a group and gas up or grab a snack and chat along the way. When my '05 GT was stock I could not reasonably keep up with the C5's/C6's and 996 911's in the canyons. But by that first year on the way up to Monterey once I had my core suspension installed and adjusted even on stock tires I was not working nearly as hard and had to ease up to keep the group together and I'm no racing driver by any means. This is one of the things I just LOVE about sportycars, the people and our common interest in cars and their history.
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ORIGINAL: RodeoFlyer Your posts suggest that your success is due more to your driving skill than your setup ability. I'm not trying to discredit either. I'm certain a few sessions with you could make me faster. I agree with F1Fan in that you are knowledgable in your niche. SCCA's stupid rules and their limitation are why I don't chase cones for competition. I also despise the holier-than-thou attitude expressed by many of it's members (particularly autocrossers), which is why I run with NASA. That attitude sneaks out in your posts from time to time. I think you have a lot to contribute to the forum, and out of respect for a fellow club racer will purchase from you as my needs require it.
I tend to be the resident a$$hole in here and speak more freely than some would like. I do however only speak about what I know about, mainly because i'm stubborn and hate admitting when i'm wrong. Since it's what I always do I will put this out there -
Hey I was an asshole here before you. Of course there were plenty here before me.
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ORIGINAL: RodeoFlyer It's nice to have another person here that has real experience rather than an opinion formed by magazine ads. I respect that you run a business and need to sell parts - I get it. What I don't care for is that you seem to have appointed yourself the authority in here by becoming a site sponsor and standing behind your many championships. They are commendable. They do not however mean that you know it all or that you are always right. You have a great value and can serve the group well - and make money at the same time. That's great. I get a lot of emails from people thinking I am an authority in here, which I find laughable at times. I can only talk about what I have done with my car and what has worked or not. I give my opinions based on what I do. I can't give opinions on autocross setups. I ran a handful of events in FS before going hog wild on my car and being in CP, which isn't worth it to me to alter my setup for 3 minutes of track time - no thanks. At the end of the day what I do know is that I am one link in the chain, and try to help people out when they ask.
The bottom line is, you are a GREAT driver with GREAT documented knowledge about AUTOCROSS. I make no assumptions as to what else you might know. What I do know is that there are many of us that each have input, and NONE of us can be the final authority on anything in here. I would reccomend that you take a step back and see that many of us may have input in areas that you are not qualified - and vice versa. It seems that your business and chamionships might have made you press your nose against the big picture. There is talent, experience, and education in here that you may not be aware of because you are fairly new and weren't around in the past when people's credentials were spoken of. I jumped into autocross, and subsequently road racing, about 2 1/2 ye
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
For the record, the information and points of view that Strano, F1Fan, RodeoFlyer, and the many other posters have been great. As they say, opinions are like a$$holes, everyone's got one, and that is what makes the forum experience special.
I appreciate all the helpful comments regarding suspension mods and hope to continue learning how to make myself drive as fast as my car and then make my car driver faster.
Sounds like the first thing I need to do is get some good dampers/shocks, and LCAs to boot. Those combined with my lower springs should give me some good traction on the twisties to begin with.
As far as asdjustable shocks, can those be tweaked with the tires on? Just get under the car and turn screw dial or what?
Posts: 812
Joined: 10/9/2007 From: Harrisburg PA Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: crazystylin As far as asdjustable shocks, can those be tweaked with the tires on? Just get under the car and turn screw dial or what?
Regards adjusting the D-Specs: its done on car and is very easy, takes about 5 minutes or less to do all 4. The top of all 4 dampers are accesible and have a hole in them. You insert a small key (comes with the kit) into the damper and turn - clockwise = firm, counter = soft. Softest setting is about 7 turns counter clockwise. It adjusts both compression and rebound together (not independently adjustable). I do not have the Shaker1000 with the subs in the trunk. From what I understand the sub limits access to the top of the rear shocks - thus Tokico makes something called a remote adjuster - a SS hose with a flexible wire inside and a knob on top. You screw the remote adjuster on the top of each rear shock and leave it, its flexible and extends the knob past the sub so you can reach it.
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07 Vista Blue GT 5spd, BBK CAI, Brenspeed, Raptor, 18" DD Bullits, MGW Shifter, 4.10s, Eibach Pro, D-Specs, Violators, Cervini's Grill, Spohn adj PHB & UCA
ORIGINAL: Argonaut Regards adjusting the D-Specs: its done on car and is very easy, takes about 5 minutes or less to do all 4. The top of all 4 dampers are accesible and have a hole in them. You insert a small key (comes with the kit) into the damper and turn - clockwise = firm, counter = soft.
The Koni's are similar; they have a tab sticking out the top. They come with an adjustment knob that slips over it. Pop the hood, adjust the fronts. Pop the trunk, pull back trim (not attached in those areas) adjust rears. Really easy. There's ~ 3 turns of adjustment.
Basically there is no difference in how you physically adjust the Koni's vs. the D-specs. They both adjust via a turn of a knob and in both cases they are at the top of the damper.
What you adjust isn't the same. D-specs do bump and rebound linked, Koni's change only rebound (which I feel is a better tuning tool). And the Koni's adjuster is more robust. D-specs are so easy to turn that more than once we've had struts that "creep" away from their set position, Koni's don't do that. And D-specs have no full soft stop, you can acutally start to unscrew the guts if you go too far, where as Koni's have stops at full soft and full stiff.
And fwiw.... the remote adjusters for the D-spec rears are a waste of money in a hardtop car, period. Might be helpful on a convertible, I'm not really sure. Yeah, if you try and adjust the shocks from the trunk and have a Shaker 1000 they'd help, but it's just easier to flip the backseat down and the adjsuters are right there.
I was reading yalls posts on lateral G's and had recently read on the steeda site that thier Q350 can pull 1.2g's on a skid pad on steet tires. they are 275's but still. http://www.steeda.com/new_vehicles/Q350/index.php
Just thought that you might find it interesting since it could certainly be a Daily Driver. Sport Springs and D-Specs with strictly polyurathane bushing upgrades would not be a terrible ride at all. The upgrades they included on the Susp are:
ORIGINAL: HunterS664 I was reading yalls posts on lateral G's and had recently read on the steeda site that thier Q350 can pull 1.2g's on a skid pad on steet tires. they are 275's but still. http://www.steeda.com/new_vehicles/Q350/index.php
Just thought that you might find it interesting since it could certainly be a Daily Driver. Sport Springs and D-Specs with strictly polyurathane bushing upgrades would not be a terrible ride at all. The upgrades they included on the Susp are:
I sort of doubt that number is a steady state number as my own car has peaked over 1.2G's on a 200ft. clean skidpad. The more realistic number on my own car is closer to 0.93-0.96G depending on the direction and which run you count. My numbers were run on 275/40x18 BFG g/Force T/A KD tires which are stickier than the Nittos they like to use. Of course maybe their skidpad is stickier than mine or they used R compound DOT "street" tires which really are not street tires any more than Hoosier R6's are.
Cheers!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
Chip - I was thinking along similar lines, but willing to concede the use of "Street Touring" rubber, as in SCCA Solo STS/STU/STX/etc. Tires like Falken Azenis RT-615 fall somewhere between a good true street summer tire and R-comps. They're legitimately daily-drivable, but it's rather wasteful of the best part of their lives to do so. The newer ST* tires are slightly better than the Azenis.
In no way am i trying to back steeda's claims. Griggs site says that they use Hoosier R6's or atleast they are an option.
I would think that for the larger tires and more "hardcore" suspension work griggs does, there would be a bigger difference in steady state cornering g's, even if steeda used R comp's to get that number. But we have to keep in mind griggs was not on a skid pad, so.... maybe they're more capable than that.
Hunter
< Message edited by HunterS664 -- 4/10/2008 9:46:11 PM >
For the record... R-comp tires like Kumho's and Hoosiers are indeed "street" tires. They are DOT approved and I can legally drive them on the road until they get down to wear bars, not unlike any actual, for street use only, street tire.
People... it's marketing and nobody is going to say... Bob's stuff, pretty good but hey we used trick tires, and a new concrete skidpad to make out numbers. And fwiw, G numbers are not an indication of how well a car actually drives, only how much grip is makes when able to just drive around in circles (I can't think of a time that happens in real life).
Further, you have no idea how the number was really generated. Could have been in a banked corner. Could have been in a compression in the road. I saw number spikes of over 1.5 last year, which were that, spikes and I'd never claim that I could pull 1.5 even though I could show traces with the number on them. It's not honest.
You see, it's this kind of thing that drives me nuts. I guess it shouldn't, because not everyone is a sucker for big numbers. Those that are, well I really don't want them as customers anyway because they are the type that buy first, and think later.
< Message edited by Sam Strano -- 4/11/2008 10:51:33 AM >
How much to compete with not one, but two M3's? Well, I have Eibach Prokits, Tokicos, FRPP Sway bars, BMR LCA's, some misc. bracing, Maximum Motorsports camber plates, Steeda camber plates...oh, and not to stoke the "Strano Wars"--but I am using his very nice swaybar endlinks. Total: <$2,000
Wheels/tires: Enkei RP03's and Nitto 555RII's: another ~$2,000
How did you mount the camera? And what camera are you using? Any pictures of the mounting?
I'm using the Cruisecam headrest mount--it actually works great when someone is in the seat it is mounted to. On the posted footage, it was on the empty passenger seat, which is why there is some vibration. Lesson learned for next event--it'll go on my seat.
For the camera, I used the Panasonic Lumix DMC-LZ7S (pretty cheap on closeout at Amazon http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000MW7B12). Youtube doesn't do it justice, but it takes excellent 640x480 at 30 fps footage (i.e. you can watch it on your TV just fine), uses SDHC or SD cards, and takes AA batteries. In comparison, I had an Aiptek cam that cost about the same and there is absolutely no comparison in the quality.
I could go on and on about this camera as the perfect track day camera!
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 
