RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twisties?
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/4/2008 2:16:42 PM
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Sam Strano
Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2007
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Hang on here....
What you are claiming is oversteer is actually understeer: "when your turning and the car doesn't make the turn as you had intended to steer it?) and the nose felt like it was pushing out a bit/with some body lean".
Tuning understeer out isn't hard to do, but this illustrates RodeoFlyer's point about having some skill in driving and the things involved in it. You can't tune a car well if we can't even relate what's happening correctly. Hence the reason I'm always so damned adamant about talking to customers and working steps at a time, or what F1Fan once called the "nip-tuck" approach (though I still don't really understand what that means). It's how you tune or setup any car if you really truly car about doing it right, and getting the desired result.
You can "fix" understeer any number of ways. Alignment tweaks, spring and/or bar tuning, tire size/pressure/compounds. I'd also want to know when it does it, but also what else you'd like to change about how the car drives. In that way I can work with you and the parts to get you a result that's good all around, not just for one thing like understeer. You can fix that by making a car super loose too, that's not exactly the right way to do it.
I'm starting to get a sense of how things work here. Like most forums there are a variety of opinions put out there. Some sound really good, some are really good. Some aren't. Bottom line is that anyone with a computer and the ability to come up with a screen name and password can put their opinion out there. Maybe they are literate folks who can talk a good game.
I try very hard to explain my thoughts and actions and the rational behind them. Not everyone is going to agree at all times. That's fine, it's what makes the world go 'round and in the end it's up to the customer to weigh what's he/she has heard and been told and see what makes the most sense to them. I prefer a cautious approach, and it's always worked well for me. I've won a lot of events, and setup other cars that have won events (including many National Championships) without the most "trick" things. For instance, I have competed against many cars with double and triple adjustable Penske shocks, and have not lost to one yet. My car has never been the lightest (and I'm certainly not) car in a class, or had anything but good solid common sense applied to the setup. Same goes for the cars I've setup that have won ASP, ES, FS as well as my own ESP car.
And what's more. My setups are streetable. I drive my cars all over the place, and just last year there was a series of articles in a national magazine about a setup I did on a pony-car (a Camaro) in which the car is daily driven across New York City, but also tracked. On a 1.3 mile track we ultimately took off almost 7 seconds (with R-comp tires), but still over 3 seconds a lap on the street tires. The setup worked for both instances. And that setup consisted of "only" shocks, springs, swaybars and a different PHB. That's it.
The fact is an S197 is better out of the box suspension wise than was/is a Camaro. That doesn't mean we might not want to improve it more or make it better. But it's easy to make good gains for not a lot of effort. And anything we want to do needs to be based upon what dynamically you want to change about how the car drives, NOT upon what random folks tell you that you need. I'm not ashamed to say the only think I feel all cars can improve from are better dampers because the OEM Ford stuff is a bit lacking in rebound control espeically in the rear. Beyond that, what parts would simply be based upon you perception of how the car drives. It is, after all, your car and nobody else's.
_____________________________
SCCA National Champion (x4)
SCCA ProSolo Champion (x3)
Borrower: ''07 Shelby GT #450
Owner: ''07 Mustang GTKoni equipped
Owner: STRANO PERFORMANCE PARTS
www.stranoparts.com
800-729-1831 orders
814-849-3450 questions/tech
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/4/2008 2:40:51 PM
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RodeoFlyer
Posts: 1412
Joined: 6/22/2006
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^^^^^^^
...the difference between the cook's explaination and the chef's 
So what Sam is saying is.........
get more driving experience so that you can more accurately describe what YOU need to make the car easier to drive.
.....and he will gladly sell you the parts.
Sam called me in CALIFORNIA from PENNSYLVANIA - just to let me know my $165 end links were on the way.
THAT'S CUSTOMER SERVICE from a 7 TIME NATIONAL CHAMP. Trust him. 
_____________________________
06' GT - NASA SoCal #82 TTB
Thanks to Wild Pony Motorsports, Ross Murray, and KW Suspension
3rd place (x2) - California Speedway 3/08
1st place - Buttonwillow Raceway 4/08
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/5/2008 9:10:43 AM
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steelcomp
Posts: 255
Joined: 12/9/2006
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Sam.
Thanks for taking the time nd talking with me the other day. Not a lot of guys would take time from their busy schedule, and I appreciate it. I came away from our conversation with a couple of interesting thoughts.
Just wndering what your opinion/input is on the Hotchkis adjustable AR bar set you advertize. They've always made some decent products, and I was wondering if they've odne their homework on these, or just played follow the leader? Rear bar/mount/adjustability looks decent.
Thanks again for your time.
As far as this thread goes, I absolutely agree with the thought of needing to be able to understand from a driver's point what the car is doing and why, before you can begin making changes to the car. These cars out of the box are so far ahead of what some would have considered a full race car not so many years ago. I don't know too many people in my circle who can push one of these cars to it's absolute limits as they are stock, and they can be pushed, tossed, turned and slid, and pretty darn predictably and gracefully just like they are by a skilled driver. They aren't able to put near the HP they're making to the ground, either, so power adders right off the bat aren't necessary. One of my pet peeves is guys who want to make more power, but 1) don't have the car in the right configuration to use the power they already have, and 2) don't have the driving skill to take advantage of more power even if the car can. Part of making these cars faster is getting the existing power to the ground effectively, and when you do that, you'll be amazed at how fast you can actually go. Ultimately, this goes back to driving technique, and learning to drive the car as it is. One of my first instructors told me a long time ago, "drive like there's an egg between your foot and the pedals." I've never forgotten that.
Thanks again Sam. If you're ever on the west coast, let me know. Cold one's on me.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sam Strano
Hang on here....
What you are claiming is oversteer is actually understeer: "when your turning and the car doesn't make the turn as you had intended to steer it?) and the nose felt like it was pushing out a bit/with some body lean".
Tuning understeer out isn't hard to do, but this illustrates RodeoFlyer's point about having some skill in driving and the things involved in it. You can't tune a car well if we can't even relate what's happening correctly. Hence the reason I'm always so damned adamant about talking to customers and working steps at a time, or what F1Fan once called the "nip-tuck" approach (though I still don't really understand what that means). It's how you tune or setup any car if you really truly car about doing it right, and getting the desired result.
You can "fix" understeer any number of ways. Alignment tweaks, spring and/or bar tuning, tire size/pressure/compounds. I'd also want to know when it does it, but also what else you'd like to change about how the car drives. In that way I can work with you and the parts to get you a result that's good all around, not just for one thing like understeer. You can fix that by making a car super loose too, that's not exactly the right way to do it.
I'm starting to get a sense of how things work here. Like most forums there are a variety of opinions put out there. Some sound really good, some are really good. Some aren't. Bottom line is that anyone with a computer and the ability to come up with a screen name and password can put their opinion out there. Maybe they are literate folks who can talk a good game.
I try very hard to explain my thoughts and actions and the rational behind them. Not everyone is going to agree at all times. That's fine, it's what makes the world go 'round and in the end it's up to the customer to weigh what's he/she has heard and been told and see what makes the most sense to them. I prefer a cautious approach, and it's always worked well for me. I've won a lot of events, and setup other cars that have won events (including many National Championships) without the most "trick" things. For instance, I have competed against many cars with double and triple adjustable Penske shocks, and have not lost to one yet. My car has never been the lightest (and I'm certainly not) car in a class, or had anything but good solid common sense applied to the setup. Same goes for the cars I've setup that have won ASP, ES, FS as well as my own ESP car.
And what's more. My setups are streetable. I drive my cars all over the place, and just last year there was a series of articles in a national magazine about a setup I did on a pony-car (a Camaro) in which the car is daily driven across New York City, but also tracked. On a 1.3 mile track we ultimately took off almost 7 seconds (with R-comp tires), but still over 3 seconds a lap on the street tires. The setup worked for both instances. And that setup consisted of "only" shocks, springs, swaybars and a different PHB. That's it.
The fact is an S197 is better out of the box suspension wise than was/is a Camaro. That doesn't mean we might not want to improve it more or make it better. But it's easy to make good gains for not a lot of effort. And anything we want to do needs to be based upon what dynamically you want to change about how the car drives, NOT upon what random folks tell you that you need. I'm not ashamed to say the only think I feel all cars can improve from are better dampers because the OEM Ford stuff is a bit lacking in rebound control espeically in the rear. Beyond that, what parts would simply be based upon you perception of how the car drives. It is, after all, your car and nobody else's.
_____________________________
07GT Alloy 5spd, IUP, Tint
C&L race, Brenspeed 91/110, deletes, UDP, Magnaflow,
GC d/a Koni, Spohn, BMR, FRPP, Steeda, Wilwood, Volk RE30, Michelin PS2''s & more.
I modify, therefore I am.
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/5/2008 12:28:09 PM
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F1Fan
Posts: 1281
Joined: 3/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sam Strano
Hang on here....
<<SNIPPED>>
Tuning understeer out isn't hard to do, but this illustrates RodeoFlyer's point about having some skill in driving and the things involved in it. You can't tune a car well if we can't even relate what's happening correctly. Hence the reason I'm always so damned adamant about talking to customers and working steps at a time, or what F1Fan once called the "nip-tuck" approach (though I still don't really understand what that means). It's how you tune or setup any car if you really truly car about doing it right, and getting the desired result.
<<SNIPED>>
Hi Sam,
If you have never seen an episode of the HBO series Nip Tuck I highly rcommend that you rent one of the show's DVDs. You only need to watch the first 2-3 minutes to see what I was refering to. This amazing HBO program is a hoot well written (series like this one are the best reasons sat/cable networks are gaining ground on broadcast networks) and so warped and sick (and I'm from L.A.) you won't believe it but somehow you just can't look away. Anywho, every episode of Nip Tuck opens with the principals doing an initial patient consultation interview to determine what the potential new patient is considering, to screen patients for mental stability and to see it they have reasonable expectations about the cosmetic surgery they are considering. The first line is always "So what is it about yourself you would like to change" and the answers are usually obvious and frequently highly entertaining as the camera pulls back to reveal the patient. I guess the reference was not obvious to you and I'm sorry if you missed the meaning in that prior post.
But this is basically the way I like to help folks, I ask and if they answer I'll respond with what I think should be a good starting point for them to build on. If the OP knows what he wants and I can hear it in his post I'll reply with suggestions. If they don't sound like they know what they want or like they don't drive fast enough I ask questions. Please see any of my previous posts, they go back several years, often I suggest very mild setups depending on conditions and driver wants and needs. I also ask that people be brutally honest about their intended use and what sort of driving experience or events they go to if any. You also may not know it but frequently I will have had several previous conversations with them through email and P.M. and frequently this is not obvious in the public threads as they get blended together.
Something you also have to consider is that to most of the folks here suspension components are like most other car accessories, nice jewelry to be seen wearing. Personally this is not my interst in S197 chassis suspension and this is reflected in the items I've bought, installed, tested, tweaked, tested again, tossed, install a new part and tested, tweaked and tested again and again on my own S197GT to make it work the way I like serious road cars to work. But make no mistake I don't give this advice lightly and veryt carefully consider everything I suggest for a reason based on what the poster has asked about and has written about whether you've seen all of the correspondance or not.
There is also the issue of the fact that you as a racer are limited by some sanctioning body's class rules in what you can and cannot do. Savvy, consistent class winners in almost every form of auto racing almost always have a good idea of what the local tech committee or rep. will or will not allow under the rules and choose cars and classes to compete in based on this information. For a street car there are no real limits in this regard only the cost in tems of time, money and what the mods do to change the car's utility in the real world. A lot of things I might suggest for a street car might not be allowed under many of the lower unprepared class rules, like relocating suspension mounting points or changing the type of suspension a car has over what the manufacturer was building into the production cars. And as you know there are no unprepared unprepared class cars at the top of the scoring sheets. So why the apparent desire to limit what people do to their suspension if they want to make these changes, are aware of and educated about what they are doing to their cars? Some folks just like the way it looks, I don't get that part but if I can help them to have a good working car and they like the way it works, handles, rides and looks I'm all for it. Other than selling parts and advice what do you do that is so different?
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/5/2008 1:19:14 PM
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RodeoFlyer
Posts: 1412
Joined: 6/22/2006
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**grabbing a bowl of popcorn and a chair**
_____________________________
06' GT - NASA SoCal #82 TTB
Thanks to Wild Pony Motorsports, Ross Murray, and KW Suspension
3rd place (x2) - California Speedway 3/08
1st place - Buttonwillow Raceway 4/08
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/5/2008 2:35:55 PM
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steelcomp
Posts: 255
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RodeoFlyer
**grabbing a bowl of popcorn and a chair**
LOL...I was thinking the same thing. Uh oh....After one conversation with Sam, and reading enough of F1's posts, this could be interesting.
_____________________________
07GT Alloy 5spd, IUP, Tint
C&L race, Brenspeed 91/110, deletes, UDP, Magnaflow,
GC d/a Koni, Spohn, BMR, FRPP, Steeda, Wilwood, Volk RE30, Michelin PS2''s & more.
I modify, therefore I am.
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/5/2008 3:41:42 PM
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Sleeper_08
Posts: 275
Joined: 12/18/2007
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As I mentioned before the real benefit of this forum is that there are several knowledgeable people proving input and doing it from different perspectives and experience.
In my case I don't want to spend a lot of time changing my car and gradually improving but to use the combined input to do a "one time" install and end up with a car that in the right hands can easily outrun a pre 2008 M3. For various reasons I also wanted to add SC right from the start so this forced an immediate requirement to upgrade.
Then I will hopefully learn how to drive it to somewhere near its capability. For me this is a better approach than changing things as my skills progress. I also have the advantage of learning from my brother who has a lot of seat time.
So thanks to you all for your input. The parts listed below have all been ordered and on May 3/4 we do the installation and May 19 is our first track day. As there are already some Porsches and Corvettes entered we'll get a change to see how the car stacks up, with the more experienced driver of course. I'll let you all know how it works out.
_____________________________
White 08 GT Roush S/C 445 HP/KDW2 285/40/18 tires/18 x 9.5 wheels Steeda Ultralites/ Steeda Competition springs/D Specs/LCA/Adj UCA & Mnt/AdjPHB/PHB brc/Upper strut mnts/GT500 Brake Kit/GT500 Front LCA/X5 Ball Jnt/Bmp Str + more
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/5/2008 4:37:06 PM
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RodeoFlyer
Posts: 1412
Joined: 6/22/2006
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a s197 with nothing more than sticky tires and a set of Koni's will outrun a pre-08 M3.
I should get little M3 stickers made to put on my fenders like the kill stickers on warplanes. I'd already have a bunch.
They aren't THAT fast, and many of their owners are overconfident and undertalented.
_____________________________
06' GT - NASA SoCal #82 TTB
Thanks to Wild Pony Motorsports, Ross Murray, and KW Suspension
3rd place (x2) - California Speedway 3/08
1st place - Buttonwillow Raceway 4/08
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/5/2008 6:56:44 PM
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Sleeper_08
Posts: 275
Joined: 12/18/2007
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Gee does that mean we should raise the standard and go after 997s?
_____________________________
White 08 GT Roush S/C 445 HP/KDW2 285/40/18 tires/18 x 9.5 wheels Steeda Ultralites/ Steeda Competition springs/D Specs/LCA/Adj UCA & Mnt/AdjPHB/PHB brc/Upper strut mnts/GT500 Brake Kit/GT500 Front LCA/X5 Ball Jnt/Bmp Str + more
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/6/2008 12:11:10 PM
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RodeoFlyer
Posts: 1412
Joined: 6/22/2006
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i'm just a turbo away from that 
_____________________________
06' GT - NASA SoCal #82 TTB
Thanks to Wild Pony Motorsports, Ross Murray, and KW Suspension
3rd place (x2) - California Speedway 3/08
1st place - Buttonwillow Raceway 4/08
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/6/2008 7:54:25 PM
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F1Fan
Posts: 1281
Joined: 3/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sleeper_08
As I mentioned before the real benefit of this forum is that there are several knowledgeable people proving input and doing it from different perspectives and experience.
In my case I don't want to spend a lot of time changing my car and gradually improving but to use the combined input to do a "one time" install and end up with a car that in the right hands can easily outrun a pre 2008 M3. For various reasons I also wanted to add SC right from the start so this forced an immediate requirement to upgrade.
Then I will hopefully learn how to drive it to somewhere near its capability. For me this is a better approach than changing things as my skills progress. I also have the advantage of learning from my brother who has a lot of seat time.
So thanks to you all for your input. The parts listed below have all been ordered and on May 3/4 we do the installation and May 19 is our first track day. As there are already some Porsches and Corvettes entered we'll get a change to see how the car stacks up, with the more experienced driver of course. I'll let you all know how it works out.
Hi Sleeper_08,
With the stuff you listed carefully installed and thoughfully aligned you will have a very fast capable car. Be careful and get some professional coaching on the track, it makes a huge difference in time saved. I know you don't want to get to much into the nuts and bolts of it but a few simple tools for the track are helpful. A smal notebook or log for setup notes, thoughts about the car and conditions, a stopwatch or lap timer with a split timing is handy, a large high quality tire gauge is a treasure, a contact tire pyrometer is best but in a pinch a laser guided IR can get you by and it has the added use of being able to check brake component temps and headers which can be really handy if you are having trouble. It is also nice to have access to a portable camber and toe gauge along with the tools to set camber and toe at the track.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/7/2008 2:11:41 AM
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ndgoalie35
Posts: 188
Joined: 9/11/2007
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Wow. There was a lot of platform underconfidence in the earlier threads. I have two words for all of you, GRIGGS RACING. The package might be $15g's, but show me another streetable package that can pull 1.5g's in lateral acceleration. This package would most likely murder other cars on the track.
http://gr40.com/
_____________________________
Black 07 CS/GT bone stock no more. Bamachips Race Tune, C&L "Race" Intake, XCAL 3 Tuner, SLP Loudmouths, 15% Tint up front, Limo in rear, Moleskin, Pioneer AVIC-D3.
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/7/2008 3:57:57 AM
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Norm Peterson
Posts: 1455
Joined: 2/26/2007
From: Delaware Twp, NJ
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It's not clear how to get from that link to any mention of 1.5 lateral g's, which is almost certainly a measurement involving real race tires. But anyway, that won't be 1.5 sustained lateral g's on real street tires. Maybe a spike reading on R-comps. Just how "streetable" . . . is always a compromise that depends on a few other things.
F1Fan - I didn't get the "Nip-Tuck" reference either. Don't watch enough TV I guess.
Norm
< Message edited by Norm Peterson -- 4/7/2008 5:30:27 AM >
_____________________________
08 GT Premium Black/Light Graphite, stick, un-FStock
weenie-EP 626/V6, Prepared just enough, sometimes
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/7/2008 10:10:24 AM
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Sam Strano
Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steelcomp
Sam.
Thanks for taking the time nd talking with me the other day. Not a lot of guys would take time from their busy schedule, and I appreciate it. I came away from our conversation with a couple of interesting thoughts.
Just wndering what your opinion/input is on the Hotchkis adjustable AR bar set you advertize. They've always made some decent products, and I was wondering if they've odne their homework on these, or just played follow the leader? Rear bar/mount/adjustability looks decent.
Thanks again for your time.
With the understanding that I run a business, and that business needs to make money to stay open, there are things that sometimes pop up for sale on my site that aren't necessarily what I think best. Hotchkis makes very nice parts.... and sometimes they are really useful. In this case, the rear bar is, IMO, far too large and the front doesn't need to be that big.
With a solid axle rear car, you don't want or need a HUGE rear swaybar. And frankly if the bar set is close to correct for the use and in combination with the springs on the car adjustment for fine tuning is only needed on one end. The front bar is far easier to make adjustable, hence the reason most do that.
I've tested a set of bars, not that much different from what's out there already, but different. We will very soon have a set of bars that are 1-3/8" (35mm) front, 7/8" (22mm) rear, with the front being adjustable, but BOTH being hollow. And we hope to have them for less than $400 a set. Trying to finalize the deal now (test fitting, driving has been done).
_____________________________
SCCA National Champion (x4)
SCCA ProSolo Champion (x3)
Borrower: ''07 Shelby GT #450
Owner: ''07 Mustang GTKoni equipped
Owner: STRANO PERFORMANCE PARTS
www.stranoparts.com
800-729-1831 orders
814-849-3450 questions/tech
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/7/2008 10:42:02 AM
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Sam Strano
Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2007
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I thought Nip/Tuck was an FX Network show... not HBO.
First thing is first here. I'd like to know F1Fan's name (simply to know who I'm talking to because I doubt his name is actually F1Fan). And I'd like to know what his credentials are, because in all honesty I don't have the time to waste arguing with the wind.
We both have opinions and clearly different ways of going about recommending parts. That's fine and I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is trying to debate unknows (both people, driving scenerio's, and setups). Yes, I do have rules to live by in some classes, and they can be pretty restrictive. But that's what has made me realize that this wheel doesn't need completely re-invented. There are always those that do, and for instance in my years in ESP in my Camaro I've run against other F-bodies with much "more" done.... and beaten them. There are a few older Mustangs that moved from a more basic setup to a radically different one, with no tangible difference in speed I could find vs. the previous setup after back to back running against my Camaro as a constant (and I drove both cars). The owner claimed a huge difference. But I all know is the car went from running the same times as my Camaro with the old setup, to running the same times with the new. I just found my back to be sore after the changes, the car more less forgiving, and the owner's wallet a lot lighter. Note this customer is a friend, but we don't see eye to eye on setup and I did not recommend those changes. My opinoins of the feel are that, opinions forged on test course that does not vary year to year (and a year passed between the before and after, and the Camaro was there for both tests). What isn't an opinion is the clock, and it told the story as far as I'm concerned.
There are book smarts and street smarts. I'm the first to tell folks I'm not an engineer. But what I have is experience and real-world trial and error and experience. If you add up my results, the sheer number of cars I get to drive for comparison, the location in which I live and the roads I drive on (here in western PA, the roads here aren't like glass...well maybe, but broken glass) I think I've got a good foundation for helping folks with their needs. If anyone has doubts, well I invite them to call my tech-line. I'd be happy, as I always have done, to talk things over. And in the end you can just simply decide if I'm insane, or not.
I think F1Fan often has good points, and has pretty good technical knowledge. But I don't always agree, I think recommendations are made that are too much, too soon without nearly enough background information. And if you could setup a car by a few e-mails and without a lot of testing and monkeying around.... I don't really understand why all F1 cars arean't Ferrari or McLaren speed, or why such teams spend so much time testing, and testing, and trying things. Why do OEM's put hundreds of thousands of miles on test mules? Why do they spend that money? Because the CAD programs and Windtunnels can't tell you if something *actually works*. And while something might seem to work pretty well, you don't know how well without other comparisons.
Basic example: I've driven S197's on stock V-6 dampers, stock GT dampers, FRPP Multimatic dampers, Tokico D-specs, Koni Sports, soon will be doing some testing of some high dollar AST Suspension Coil-overs, KW's, a set of Eibach Pro dampers. There might be one or two more, and I haven't driven EVERY shock for the (admittedly), but I don't think you'll find many who've driven more shocks (either on a Mustang or any other car with reference cars and shocks) than I have.
Whether you call me or not, I'd STRONGLY advise against ever setting a car up with only one opinion, and NEVER when that opinion comes from a namless person you know nothing about on the internet. And I tell people all the time, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I have my preferences and I'll explain them (by phone) because you can't set a car up by e-mail. At least not to the standard I demand of myself.
That's about all I have to say about this subject.
_____________________________
SCCA National Champion (x4)
SCCA ProSolo Champion (x3)
Borrower: ''07 Shelby GT #450
Owner: ''07 Mustang GTKoni equipped
Owner: STRANO PERFORMANCE PARTS
www.stranoparts.com
800-729-1831 orders
814-849-3450 questions/tech
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/7/2008 11:07:35 AM
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RodeoFlyer
Posts: 1412
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ndgoalie35
Wow. There was a lot of platform underconfidence in the earlier threads. I have two words for all of you, GRIGGS RACING. The package might be $15g's, but show me another streetable package that can pull 1.5g's in lateral acceleration. This package would most likely murder other cars on the track.
http://gr40.com/
FACT - Griggs makes AWESOME stuff
FACT - Griggs' stuff is RIDICULOUSLY expensive
FACT - Griggs will always tell you that there stuff is the best.
Agent 47 has a double a-arm suspension available for our cars. It's THREE THOUSAND DOLLARS - not $8000 like Griggs. Is it better or worse? I'm not qualified to make that presumtion. What I do know is that Agent 47 won the American Iron Extreme championship last year on the west coast. They stayed consistent and even set a track record last year. At first I was skeptical of their stuff as anyone would be with new stuff, however after 2 years of beating on the car their stuff has held up. Ernesto Rocco has a very fast and very light car. If Corey Weber shaved a few hundred pounds off the car and had Ernesto's seat time I argue they would be a lot closer.
Griggs' video depicting the spindle flex on the S197 really pisses me off. The part where they zoom in on the dial indicator that says MADE IN CHINA on the face rubs me the wrong way. I would expect that from someone more like JR Granatelli. For what Griggs is charging for their stuff they can afford a f***ing American made dial indicator. They want something like $1659 for a HARNESS BAR. Not a 4-point roll bar - a main hoop only. That's highway robbery! What the hell is it made out of? What great R&D costs are they trying to recover?
Their stuff is faster in capable hands, however arguably doesn't have the durability of some and requires more maintanence than others. With a big budget I would put their stuff on a race car, but not a street car. My 93' Cobra actually has a lot of their stuff on it, mixed with some Maximum stuff. When I called and talked to them about issues I was having their answer was to remove all of the Maximum stuff and replace it with theirs, to the tune of $4000. A simple setup change recommended by Maximum that cost me $400 did the job for now. It's not perfect, but it's good enough to get me by until I have the money to do it better.
Their answer always seems to be that theirs is the best and it costs a lot of money and if you wont spend it you wont be competitive. Their customer support is great if you buy a complete GR40 kit. Their AI contingency sponsorship was only for drivers with COMPLETE GR40 kits. Maximum's only requires you to have 3 of their parts on the car.
I don't mean to beat on Griggs too much, but in the times I have spoken to them I feel like i'm being badgered by a car salesman to buy the better equipped model for sticker price when I know what I want. I don't like the scare tactic they use to convince people to buy their setup because the factory front end is "unsafe". Funny the GAC guys, FIA guys, Miller Cup guys, AI guys, A Sedan guys - all do just fine on the factory front end. When I asked what they thought about that the Griggs response was "yeah but how often are they changing spindles and ball joints?". Well, I went straight to the proper source and spoke to the driver of a very competitive GAC car about it. His answer was that what Griggs is saying is typical of them (he didn't say it disrespectfully), and that his team has experienced no issues with the spindles. He stated that they did have a few issues with ball joint, but that they were mainly due to the crew improperly torquing them after replacing them due to wheel-to-wheel contact.
My car left this morning to be pulled apart by a suspension company that shall remain nameless but fairly obvious. It is being used for development. They have a 7-post rig. They have a lot of data and access to things that most companies dont. One of their engineers is spending this season developing a suspension system to put me on the podium this year at the NASA championships. It is being set up and shook down for every track in my region, with trackside support. I've already learned stuff about our car that would confuse most of us and make Sam and Chip giggle . First time out we slashed 3 seconds off of our times from last year. In all fairness, everyone seemed to have picked up a second or so from last year, but I now run on NT-01's whereas last year I ran on V710's, which are a little bit faster - but you get the point. So far we have only done dampers and springs, sent specific for my car based on their post rig data. Griggs is correct about the swaybar issues on the S197, and that is being adressed next. The majority of people don't know what they are talking about when it comes to our swaybars. I'm learning some really cool stuff. Working with a true mechanical engineer with fancy equipment at his disposal is cool!
We will just see about that 1.5G's
_____________________________
06' GT - NASA SoCal #82 TTB
Thanks to Wild Pony Motorsports, Ross Murray, and KW Suspension
3rd place (x2) - California Speedway 3/08
1st place - Buttonwillow Raceway 4/08
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/7/2008 12:18:57 PM
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RodeoFlyer
Posts: 1412
Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline
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Sam -
F1Fan's name is Chip, and most of us in here know that. He has been here for years, whereas you have been here for months.
He has likely installed more S197 sytems and driven them than you have.
I don't need to tell you that road racing setups and autocross setups have as amny differences as they do similarities. How much road racing experience do you have?
I presume that Chip has more experience with shocks than you have and more than I care about. I'm sure he will be responding shortly and at length. I loved my Bilsteins, which was against Chip's opinion but worked well for me. The car rode like sh*t but handled well. I've also driven a Saleen, ridden in a Roush, and driven on Bilsteins, Tokicos, and FRPP. And Koni's.
Chip and I often have different opinions all the time because what we do is different. He likes a cozy but spirited ride in Mullholland on Sundays. I like giving Corvettes a thank-you wave after they give me a point by. You are a successful cone chaser. ModAddict likes doing wheelies and not turning. Some guys like big blingy unprung weight killing 20's. We're all DIFFERENT.
Your posts suggest that your success is due more to your driving skill than your setup ability. I'm not trying to discredit either. I'm certain a few sessions with you could make me faster. I agree with F1Fan in that you are knowledgable in your niche. SCCA's stupid rules and their limitation are why I don't chase cones for competition. I also despise the holier-than-thou attitude expressed by many of it's members (particularly autocrossers), which is why I run with NASA. That attitude sneaks out in your posts from time to time. I think you have a lot to contribute to the forum, and out of respect for a fellow club racer will purchase from you as my needs require it.
I tend to be the resident a$$hole in here and speak more freely than some would like. I do however only speak about what I know about, mainly because i'm stubborn and hate admitting when i'm wrong. Since it's what I always do I will put this out there -
It's nice to have another person here that has real experience rather than an opinion formed by magazine ads. I respect that you run a business and need to sell parts - I get it. What I don't care for is that you seem to have appointed yourself the authority in here by becoming a site sponsor and standing behind your many championships. They are commendable. They do not however mean that you know it all or that you are always right. You have a great value and can serve the group well - and make money at the same time. That's great. I get a lot of emails from people thinking I am an authority in here, which I find laughable at times. I can only talk about what I have done with my car and what has worked or not. I give my opinions based on what I do. I can't give opinions on autocross setups. I ran a handful of events in FS before going hog wild on my car and being in CP, which isn't worth it to me to alter my setup for 3 minutes of track time - no thanks. At the end of the day what I do know is that I am one link in the chain, and try to help people out when they ask.
The bottom line is, you are a GREAT driver with GREAT documented knowledge about AUTOCROSS. I make no assumptions as to what else you might know. What I do know is that there are many of us that each have input, and NONE of us can be the final authority on anything in here. I would reccomend that you take a step back and see that many of us may have input in areas that you are not qualified - and vice versa. It seems that your business and chamionships might have made you press your nose against the big picture. There is talent, experience, and education in here that you may not be aware of because you are fairly new and weren't around in the past when people's credentials were spoken of. I jumped into autocross, and subsequently road racing, about 2 1/2 years ago, which to most would seem like not very long. I've spent a LOT of money a LOT of time on track. My car has been on track at least one weekend a month since I bought it. It's been on 5 different road courses, 2 of them with multiple configurations. I've learned a lot in a short time thru both trial and error, and advice and setup help from some of the most succesful and notable people when it comes to ponycars and road racing. It hasn't been cheap or easy, but I have a car capable of winning a championship in that time.
Respectfully Sam,
I'm just saying that there is a lot more experience and "credentials" than you realize. People hate JR Granatelli because of how he acts on all of the forums. A couple have actually banned him. Please don't become that guy.
- Matt
< Message edited by RodeoFlyer -- 4/7/2008 12:21:12 PM >
_____________________________
06' GT - NASA SoCal #82 TTB
Thanks to Wild Pony Motorsports, Ross Murray, and KW Suspension
3rd place (x2) - California Speedway 3/08
1st place - Buttonwillow Raceway 4/08
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/7/2008 2:48:32 PM
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Sam Strano
Posts: 300
Joined: 9/6/2007
Status: offline
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I don't think there is anything wrong with asking.... In fact, I've actually asked in the past with no response. I don't think it's at all unreasonable to want to know who I'm talking to, after all you guys know about me, and anything you want to know, just ask me.
I never said Chip (now I at least know a first name) doesn't know anything, despite not knowing a thing about him. I get the distinct feeling he is somehow involved in selling parts or some such thing, but I could be wrong. And even if he is, there is nothing wrong with that, I just like full disclosure which is why I want to know what the credentials are. It's not a matter of seeing who's equipment is bigger simple a matter of experience and practical application of parts and again, I don't think it was out of line in the least to want to know "who" I'm talking to. This is, after all, the internet and anyone with a computer and time can sign up for this, or most other forum and type up opinions, "facts", thoughts, FWIW's, YMMV's, and so on. You don't know if you are talking to a 17 year old or a 75 year old. I'm sorry I didn't know that Chip has "been around", though the vague fog surrounding the details make me wonder just what's up. A defendant has the right to face his accuser and cross-examine them. That's all I was doing, or trying to. Not much good I guess. I now know a first name, and that he's "likely" done more than I have.
As for my being "new". Maybe on this site, but I don't think that has much bearing on how a car works or what I know, does it? I'm not asking for everyone to just trust me. I'm more than willing to talk to folks and let them make your own decisions, and if anyone were to google me (which you can do since you know who I am), you'll find I just didn't pop up from nowhere. Just because I'm bringing other pony-car experience doesn't mean I'm clueless. FWIW, I don't think RodeoFlyer said that or meant to imply that but I think it could be construde that way.
As for "being that guy". I hear Grantelli just tells folks they are stupid type things. I don't know, and would personally reserve judgement until having dealings with him. I've heard things about me that just aren't true from people I've never talked to. And the internet is a very poor form or expressing intent, feeling. It is no substitute for personal interaction, largely because what is said it often misinterpreted. I'm blunt because beating around the bush really doesn't serve much good. What I said is what I was thinking, and in no way, shape, or form was it out of line, or derogatory toward F1Fan (or anyone else).
And while you might think my attitude sneaks out from time to time I ask you remember that I deal with people everyday. Day in and out, week in and out, year in and out. I'd say I must not be a complete ass because my customers tend to be loyal, and I must have done something right in the first place. I can have a real conversation with a person, I don't feel that happens by e-mail, and it's frustrating to me. As for SCCA vs. NASA. I belong to both. And both frustrate me in their own ways. SCCA is much more structured, and NASA being newer isn't. Over time NASA will have to have more rules and things will tighten up there too. NASA to me is a bunch of "good enough" at times. I'm horrified by the lack of safety equipment NASA requires for somethings... that doesn't make NASA members dumb (I am one), just as an SCCA rule doesn't make an SCCA arrogant.
Do I road-race? Nope. Can't afford it. Would love to, but I don't have the time or money to put toward a road-race car that can be destroyed through no fault of my own. I do track from time to time., I do autocross and if you check into backgrounds of many drivers, I think we all know that good autoxers make very good road racers, and not being an actual license holding "road-racer" doesn't mean I can't make a car awfully fast.
You'll be seeing an f-body on the west coast in CMC that I've help with, and I guarantee you it'll make some folk look silly. It's also driven by an autocrosser (who've I've competed with and beaten, and he me) over the years. He sat on Pole as a rookie @ Runoffs in T2. There are friends of mine who have never raced wheel to wheel ever who have aquitted themselves quite well the last few weeks. An autoxer whom I'm not friends with, but respect his driving harassed a Viper Comp Coupe on Michelin slicks driven by some guy named Tommy Archer with what amounts to an SCCA ASP class Corvette with no aero help a few more ponies--and no wheel to wheel experience. Road-racing involves race craft, and I'm not claiming to have that. But as for setting up a car and driving it, SCCA National Champion Soloist have a hell of a track record that extends from regional NASA events to Daytona and Sebring.
I don't want to be that guy, but I will point out issues that I feel should be pointed out. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me without thinking for themselves and learning where both sides of the argument comes from. That's not arrogant, at least I don't think it is. If you think it is, ok...
_____________________________
SCCA National Champion (x4)
SCCA ProSolo Champion (x3)
Borrower: ''07 Shelby GT #450
Owner: ''07 Mustang GTKoni equipped
Owner: STRANO PERFORMANCE PARTS
www.stranoparts.com
800-729-1831 orders
814-849-3450 questions/tech
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RE: How much $$$ to compete w/ new M3 or S4 in the twis... - 4/7/2008 3:38:13 PM
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Sleeper_08
Posts: 275
Joined: 12/18/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Hi Sleeper_08,
With the stuff you listed carefully installed and thoughfully aligned you will have a very fast capable car. Be careful and get some professional coaching on the track, it makes a huge difference in time saved. I know you don't want to get to much into the nuts and bolts of it but a few simple tools for the track are helpful. A smal notebook or log for setup notes, thoughts about the car and conditions, a stopwatch or lap timer with a split timing is handy, a large high quality tire gauge is a treasure, a contact tire pyrometer is best but in a pinch a laser guideThanks for the tips on what to take to the track. d IR can get you by and it has the added use of being able to check brake component temps and headers which can be really handy if you are having trouble. It is also nice to have access to a portable camber and toe gauge along with the tools to set camber and toe at the track.
HTH!
F1Fan
Thanks for the response. I've done a lot of research both here and elsewhere so hopefully the install will go well. After the install the car is going straight to an alignment shop that is familar with setting us the S197s for the street and track.
The list of things to have at the track is great. I've got them all covered except for the portable camber and toe gauge.
_____________________________
White 08 GT Roush S/C 445 HP/KDW2 285/40/18 tires/18 x 9.5 wheels Steeda Ultralites/ Steeda Competition springs/D Specs/LCA/Adj UCA & Mnt/AdjPHB/PHB brc/Upper strut mnts/GT500 Brake Kit/GT500 Front LCA/X5 Ball Jnt/Bmp Str + more
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