End of the V-8? Ford bets on direct injection and turbos

(http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2008/112_0308_ford_bets_on_direct_injection/photo_01.html)
[/align]The first automaker to put V-8s in popularly priced cars may be the first to take them away. Ford (http://www.motortrend.com/new_cars/01/ford/index.html) Motor Company is investing--big--into gas turbocharged direct-injection engines, says Derrick Kuzak, group vice president for global product development (Ford's Bob Lutz). Ford plans to build a half million vehicles per year with the engine technology in five years.[/align]Why GTDI, as Ford calls it? The technology was also formerly known as TwinForce, but Ford has renamed it EcoBoost. Beside better performance and fuel economy, "combined with downsizing engines, direct injection allows less turbo lag and higher compression for more boost," Kuzak explains. It produces better torque curves than diesels.[/align]And it's a substitute for cubic inches. A 2.0-liter GTDI can perform comparably with a 3.0-liter V-6 (which can generate as much as 275 horsepower and 280 lb-ft of torque, according to Ford) and add five mpg, per Kuzak. A 3.5-liter GTDI V-6 has a two-mpg advantage over a 4.6-liter V-8 and can see power numbers of 340 horsepower and over 340 lb-ft of torque. And the higher cost of GTDI pays off in better fuel economy (20-30 percent gains, according to Ford) much more quickly than with a hybrid or diesel.[/align]So is the V-8 dead? "I'm not sure," Kuzak replies. Ford will have to educate buyers that a GTDI V-6 can be torquier than a 4.6-liter V-8. One thing is certain: With the Energy Bill's higher CAFE standards, the V-8 will become more of a niche engine, more likely found only on low-volume sports cars, luxury sedans, and trucks.[/align]

If the V8 is not an option for the Mustang, the Mustang will die.

With all this environmentalist garbage mucking up such things, I will be buying classic cars in the future and not new ones.

I love how a small minority of eviromentalist wackos can control an entire country.[:@] There is something wrong with this world. Too bad Ford has to sell out it's good old american buyer to conform to this green fad. I know there are new laws coming into effect thanks to that ass bag Bush who claims to be an Republican. A real Conservative would have vetoed that energy bill. I still think Ford, Chevy, and Dodge should fight this energy bill in court. Not just lay down like a bunch of pansies. Thats how the eviromentalists get what they want. They just keeping suing untill they get their way.

Unfortunately for enthusiasts like us, most people are uninformed and ignorant so they are believing all this green propaganda. Someone needs to step up or our beloved muscle cars will be a thing or the past. God help us.


PS- suoperdave84, your car looks sick!

I'm not completely sold on direct injection because I don't believe its actually been perfected enough yet...The mazdaspeed 6 I used to have was DI and it had serious tuning problems even from the factory...the car ran rich ALL the time and I saw really crappy fuel economy...

Damn treehuggers

what does this mean? the v-8 will die out in all of ford's lineup except the f-series trucks and the mustang. they will use this engine to replace it in other cars though, i.e. crown vic and other fleet cars, and also other cars that have needed a v-8 due to their weight but where buyers don't really care about the engine as long as it lets the car accelerate at a respectable rate. ford will not kill off their v-8 mustang for at least another 30 years...i'd bet anything on it. this engine will replace all the other v-8s wherever the consumers don't care about performance and just want a decent accelerating car (i.e. suv, ford explorer, crown vic, etc.).

i am fairly sure the mustang will be one of the last v-8 american cars on the planet...

If a 3.5-liter V6 can make 340hp and torque, what could a 4.0-liter V8 do?380hp&tq? I would drive that, hell I would drive that V6.

With this new bill, big N/a V-8 are a dieing breed. Smaller F/I V-8 will survive for people like us that want V-8s and, mostly likely, have more power then our current engines. I bet the old push rod guys said that Modular engine would end the mustang too. (The engine did suck at first) lol

Mkay, if the V8 is a niche engine, as they say, let it stay in the Mustang GT and the F-series trucks and let that be your niche. Throw the Ecoboost in the Fusion/Milan, the Focus, put one in a roadster to compete with the Miata, the Solstice/Sky, revitalize the Lincoln lineup sedans and put it in those so they can better compete with Cadillac, Lexus, Infiniti, etc.. Just dont take the V8 out the Mustang and the F150 :(

I think the V6 Mustang is going to pay the price. The CAFE numbers will force out the 4.0 V6 and possibly the 3.5 from most of Fords lineup. I Would expect to see is a gas guzzler tax on all V8 cars that do not meet a set MPG rating.

The reason I bought a mustang GT is its immense room to grow. A turbo charged low displacement engine that is already pushing the limitations of the stock motor doesn't have that room. I imagine there are plenty of people in the same position as me that would refuse to buy such a car. If I want a super fast stock car I'll buy a z06. I bought my Mustang so I could make it much faster at a great value withoutswapping the engine or running 30lbs of boost.

Geez... 4.6 liter (281 ci) is what we're laughingly referring to as a "big" V8 now? :eek:

ORIGINAL: joshetc

If I want a super fast stock car I'll buy a z06. I bought my Mustang so I could make it much faster at a great value withoutswapping the engine or running 30lbs of boost.


I don't know man, there's a big difference in price between the Z06 and the Stang. i feel your point on modability being a big fun factor for the Stang though.and I say this as someone who has dont nothing more than an axle back exhaust so far :D

mods will come in due time.

If any stang has alot of performance for the money, it will still be a viable product. the vast aftermarket for our crs will find a way to adapt to whatever ford throws out. I'm not gonna panic just yet

ORIGINAL: RedGTyl

I love how a small minority of eviromentalist wackos can control an entire country.[:@] There is something wrong with this world. Too bad Ford has to sell out it's good old american buyer to conform to this green fad. I know there are new laws coming into effect thanks to that ass bag Bush who claims to be an Republican. A real Conservative would have vetoed that energy bill. I still think Ford, Chevy, and Dodge should fight this energy bill in court. Not just lay down like a bunch of pansies. Thats how the eviromentalists get what they want. They just keeping suing untill they get their way.

Unfortunately for enthusiasts like us, most people are uninformed and ignorant so they are believing all this green propaganda. Someone needs to step up or our beloved muscle cars will be a thing or the past. God help us.


PS- suoperdave84, your car looks sick!


Thanks for the compliment RedGTyl. Wait till you see the hood I am getting for it. Tufiber Venom.

And I see you are fed up with Bush as well (but not for the usual reasons). I appreciate his strength when it comes to the middle east but this energy bill and a few other things have got me pulling my hair out. He's got a lot of people hating the Right and I believe that the hatred for him here in Maryland is what got us our Communist Governor Martin O'Malley. Talk about rage. I can't stand this blue state anymore.

ORIGINAL: Fourth Horseman

Geez... 4.6 liter (281 ci) is what we're laughingly referring to as a "big" V8 now? :eek:















Times change.

ORIGINAL: Black05StangGT

I'm not completely sold on direct injection because I don't believe its actually been perfected enough yet...The mazdaspeed 6 I used to have was DI and it had serious tuning problems even from the factory...the car ran rich ALL the time and I saw really crappy fuel economy...


I think that is why they said it will be like 5 years before they will use it widely.. If they are smart they will perfect it before any car is sold to the consumer.

I really don't have a problem with it.. what if they make a v8 version of this? amazing power. probably for the cobras.. v6 for gt, 4cyl for regular.. I have no problem with that as long as power is Atleast as good as it is now.. and preferably even better.. I didn't buy this car just for the V8.. I would have bought a turbo'd v6 or maybe even an Sti if it looked anywhere near as good as our cars do, or if it had the same kind of value as ours do (you could easily spend an extra 10k for a 350z or an STi for same hp/features, plus, not look as good)

ORIGINAL: dferkler

It produces better torque curves than diesels.
[/align]And it's a substitute for cubic inches.



OH SNAP! He said replacement for displacement!!!!

ORIGINAL: Cubs17

Damn treehuggers


Well said. We are the only things on this planet that matter.:eek:


All this for 2mpg? Seems like a waste of time to me.

ORIGINAL: moosestang

ORIGINAL: Cubs17

Damn treehuggers


Well said. We are the only things on this planet that matter.:eek:


All this for 2mpg? Seems like a waste of time to me.



I agree, for only 2mpg it would not be worth it... I hope its more like 10mpg.. or its a waste of their money.. and power is power.. who here wouldn't wantto trade their stock gt for a supra eventhough itsnot a v8? ifall you care about ishow many cyl. you have... then... somethingisn't right with you... looks + speed.. isn't that most important?

Every manufacturer is being affected by these stricter mpg raitings...the Corvette will soon be scaled back and make less power because of these restrictions...Ford's australian market already sees pretty fast turbo V6's with the Ford brandingthat are competing with Holden and their GTO/V8 cars...I guess it was only a matter of time when Ford would make the switch...Also to say that the boosted cars are already at their limits peformance wise is a farse...this should not be a blanket statement...every car has limitations regardless of how much power is being pushed by the manufacturer...I've seen plenty ofboosted cars push well beyond what the factory was getting fromt them...i.e. 03/04 cobra or the GT500...hopefully when ford makes this move they will build the engines strong like they did for the Cobra and GT500 and people will make awesome power...if I am not mistaken even some of the stock evo motors could crank some serious power before problems would arise...

I would say speed + looks, but yes I agree for the most part :D

Happy Days are here again!!

http://images.mustangmonthly.com/featuredvehicles/mump_0708_10_z+best_mustang_buys+1977_mustang_II.j pg

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

If the V8 is not an option for the Mustang, the Mustang will die.

With all this environmentalist garbage mucking up such things, I will be buying classic cars in the future and not new ones.

+1

The demise of the V8 has been forecast more times than I care to remember. Guess what? Its still here.
As long as their is a market at what ever price goverment regulations force, people will buy and someone will supply the market.

Its not just about speed. A new base Chevy Cobalt 2.2 (One of the cheapest American cars you can buy) will
outrun the car that reintroduced Mustang Performance, the 1982 Mustang GT.

I am by no means defending Bush, but I think this was necessary. You can't have cheap gas prices and a war at the same time. So take your pick and quit bitching. For all the conservatives out there: Do you want the government to just stop all together, maybe we could rely on vigilantes and go back to the wild west? I mean right, those were the good old days? Seriously, grow up and think about other people and **** besides what you are "missing out on"

Besides, look at the Grand National, I'd like to see a raise of hands from the people that think they can beat a built up 6 like that with their AMAZING ZOMG v-8 stang.

ORIGINAL: kyle2k

I am by no means defending Bush, but I think this was necessary. You can't have cheap gas prices and a war at the same time. So take your pick and quit bitching. For all the conservatives out there: Do you want the government to just stop all together, maybe we could rely on vigilantes and go back to the wild west? I mean right, those were the good old days? Seriously, grow up and think about other people and **** besides what you are "missing out on"

Besides, look at the Grand National, I'd like to see a raise of hands from the people that think they can beat a built up 6 like that with their AMAZING ZOMG v-8 stang.


You gathered from those few comments that I want a wild west, vigilante government? No, I just feel I am entitled to the money I earn....and not you. I don't understand how liberals wake up every morning and tell themselves they need to pay more taxes.

As for the energy bill, it's bogus. The whole green agenda is bogus and is simply an attempt to take more power away from the people. Your boy Al Gore has had his movie and his theory torn to shreds and somehow all you Socialists swallow hook line and sinker.

Do what you want. Vote how you want. Keep your damn hands out of my wallet.

ORIGINAL: GidyupGo

ORIGINAL: Fourth Horseman

Geez... 4.6 liter (281 ci) is what we're laughingly referring to as a "big" V8 now? :eek:


Times change.


And not always for the better.

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

If the V8 is not an option for the Mustang, the Mustang will die.

With all this environmentalist garbage mucking up such things, I will be buying classic cars in the future and not new ones.


You realize that 60-70% of Ford Mustang sales are made up by the V6 model right? :eek:

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

You gathered from those few comments that I want a wild west, vigilante government? No, I just feel I am entitled to the money I earn....and not you. I don't understand how liberals wake up every morning and tell themselves they need to pay more taxes.

As for the energy bill, it's bogus. The whole green agenda is bogus and is simply an attempt to take more power away from the people. Your boy Al Gore has had his movie and his theory torn to shreds and somehow all you Socialists swallow hook line and sinker.

Do what you want. Vote how you want. Keep your damn hands out of my wallet.



Well thats like calling the kettle black. You gathered from those few comments that I even like Al Gore, etc, etc, etc. You of all selfish conservatives should realize that there is business (potentially for the American people) in this "bogus green agenda." Secondly, how can you wake up every morning and tell yourselves you truly support america when you bitch about taxes all the time. You support the war, taxes pay for the war, see the connection? Get an education before you try talk **** or shut the **** up.

i'm pretty sure the V8's on the mustangs will not be phased out anytime soon. If anything, it'll be the smaller end cars and SUV's that will be getting the DI/turbos.

Imo, its about time Ford does something different. Who knows, it may work out for the better.

THink outside the box. Gas will be $5 a gallon in 2 years, they know it the government knows it but we haven't let it sink in yet. They need to do something now or they won't be here in 5 years. The Arabs have us all by the balls

And......
Its not just the end of the v8, its the end of what made us all great.. Think about it, growing up my parents took us on vacations and a lot of them. 1 to 2 weeks seeing America. Man we went to the Grand Canyon twice, Yellowstone, Florida, NY etc.. Because they could afford it. Noone really travels like they used to, now its the mini vacation. 3 to 5 days. One of which is to and from. All because of gas..

I wouldn't mind a twin-turbo v6 like the BMW 335i's engine.:D pulls a nice 17/26 mpg too.

BMW is doing a nice job with DI+turbo v6's. If Ford can learn from others mistakes and successes, they can get ahead of the competition. Most consumers are looking for econo-cars more than performance. Automakers will cater to the majority first.

i think if they offer a twin turbo v6 they should offer a twin turbo v8 too. i dont care if the ecoboost engine is better, it wont have that mustang muscle car sound that we all love, and thats most of why i bought the car. i could have got an import twin turbo w/ better handling but i wanted the mustang: raw american muscle power. i dont like refined, i like it bold, all up in yo grill. and thats what the mustang is to me. if they totally move to a turbo v6 that will be a mistake. maybe they can put the turbo v6 in a focus or something like that.

very true, nothing matches the roar when u crank the engine on.

That means my car is gonna be worth a lot of money in the future! Even tho I would never sell it...

Im starting the protest

HELL NO WE WONT GO HELL NO WE WONT GO!!!!!! V8s ALWAYS AND FORVER



-John

ORIGINAL: ChiDiddy

I wouldn't mind a twin-turbo v6 like the BMW 335i's engine.Â*:D pulls a nice 17/26 mpg too.

BMW is doing a nice job with DI+turbo v6's. If Ford can learn from others mistakes and successes, they can get ahead of the competition. Most consumers are looking for econo-cars more than performance. Automakers will cater to the majority first.



its a I6.

Ford phasing out the v8 would be like chevy dropping the corvette from production, I for one could not see it happen. Alternative fuels will probally help keep v8s alive.

I don't believe it....

No way is Ford gonna drop a pussy engine in a mustang...

But its true..I'm worried to drive 5 extra miles for anything, let alone vacationing. I think I need a moped just to like check out my neighborhood LOL:eek:

[sm=exactly.gif] I agree!

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

Thanks for the compliment RedGTyl. Wait till you see the hood I am getting for it. Tufiber Venom.

And I see you are fed up with Bush as well (but not for the usual reasons). I appreciate his strength when it comes to the middle east but this energy bill and a few other things have got me pulling my hair out. He's got a lot of people hating the Right and I believe that the hatred for him here in Maryland is what got us our Communist Governor Martin O'Malley. Talk about rage. I can't stand this blue state anymore.


Your welcome!

And I feel your pain brotha I live in California! [sm=bangbang.gif] its like muscle car hell. long tubes are illegal! The people in power over here are blithering idiots. [:@] Yea I was a bush supporter up untill recently. I too appreciated his strength on foriegn policy but as of late I'm not sure I trust him on that either. What I dont understand is how he keeps trying to be mr. nice guy. The Democrats will always hate him and now because he is such a weak conservative, the republican base is pissed off at him too. It seems that some might even sit out the next election which would surely concede the presidency to the Democrats (who will be even more strict on emissions). How are the emissions laws in maryland?

ORIGINAL: ShadowWulf

ORIGINAL: dferkler

It produces better torque curves than diesels.
[/align]And it's a substitute for cubic inches.



OH SNAP! He said replacement for displacement!!!!


http://www.keystone-graphics.com/webstore/items_images/1138822941T-Shirt%20for%20Sayings8.jpg

ORIGINAL: ShadyNinja

ORIGINAL: ShadowWulf

ORIGINAL: dferkler

It produces better torque curves than diesels.
[/align]And it's a substitute for cubic inches.



OH SNAP! He said replacement for displacement!!!!


http://www.keystone-graphics.com/webstore/items_images/1138822941T-Shirt%20for%20Sayings8.jpg


lol, technically, its true. there IS replacement for displacement.

ORIGINAL: RedGTyl

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

Thanks for the compliment RedGTyl. Wait till you see the hood I am getting for it. Tufiber Venom.

And I see you are fed up with Bush as well (but not for the usual reasons). I appreciate his strength when it comes to the middle east but this energy bill and a few other things have got me pulling my hair out. He's got a lot of people hating the Right and I believe that the hatred for him here in Maryland is what got us our Communist Governor Martin O'Malley. Talk about rage. I can't stand this blue state anymore.


Your welcome!

And I feel your pain brotha I live in California! [sm=bangbang.gif] its like muscle car hell. long tubes are illegal! The people in power over here are blithering idiots. [:@] Yea I was a bush supporter up untill recently. I too appreciated his strength on foriegn policy but as of late I'm not sure I trust him on that either. What I dont understand is how he keeps trying to be mr. nice guy. The Democrats will always hate him and now because he is such a weak conservative, the republican base is pissed off at him too. It seems that some might even sit out the next election which would surely concede the presidency to the Democrats (who will be even more strict on emissions). How are the emissions laws in maryland?



I agree with your view of the current state of things in the Convervative world. As you can see we have some real idiots on the Left screwing things up too...some of them apparently own Mustangs and have a real hatred for anyone who believes they are entitled to money they earn....people who feel that giving up tax money equals love of country.

But enough about him.

Emissions here are not nearly like over there in CA. They are kind of strict but the people doing the actual emissions tests don't really care about their job. I took my truck in a few years ago and I actually watched it fail on the computer screen, and then they handed me a paper that said I passed. The next time I took it in they didn't even do any test at all...they just drove it over the roller and handed me the paper.

Not sure who to get behind in the race. Romney I think. You?

ORIGINAL: Black05StangGT

Every manufacturer is being affected by these stricter mpg raitings...the Corvette will soon be scaled back and make less power because of these restrictions...Ford's australian market already sees pretty fast turbo V6's with the Ford brandingthat are competing with Holden and their GTO/V8 cars...I guess it was only a matter of time when Ford would make the switch...Also to say that the boosted cars are already at their limits peformance wise is a farse...this should not be a blanket statement...every car has limitations regardless of how much power is being pushed by the manufacturer...I've seen plenty ofboosted cars push well beyond what the factory was getting fromt them...i.e. 03/04 cobra or the GT500...hopefully when ford makes this move they will build the engines strong like they did for the Cobra and GT500 and people will make awesome power...if I am not mistaken even some of the stock evo motors could crank some serious power before problems would arise...


+1,factory boosted cars always has more room for power than NA ones 'cause the blocksusually comes very strong from factory due to warranry concerns. A friend of mine has a 2006 Evo that runs 12.4s, daily driven with4mods only (Clutch, down pipe+cat back, Intercooler, BOV) then dialed the boost to 18psi and all thaton pump gas. A normal re-tune on boosted motors gains alot more power than a re-tune on NA motors.

Even with these new laws and restrictions coming in the near future (thanks Bush[:@]) we will find a way to keep the V-8 like they always have ....remember in the 80's the same thing happened and if I remember correctly the mustang had a V-8 the whole time.

ORIGINAL: mygt500

Even with these new laws and restrictions coming in the near future (thanks Bush[:@]) we will find a way to keep the V-8 like they always have ....remember in the 80's the same thing happened and if I remember correctly the mustang had a V-8 the whole time.


I hope so....but you know what...I already have my Mustang and I plan to keep it. The next body style is going to be flawed I think, so this is th eone to own. And like I said earlier I will just buy an old car in the future if they start turning these V8 cars into lawnmowers.

When the bill was signed they were saying on TV that the Corvette might be finished too. Sad to see it go if that happens. These cars are American Legends....but so is the Prius* now I guess. Sad times we live in.



*YES I know the Prius is not an American car

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

I agree with your view of the current state of things in the Convervative world. As you can see we have some real idiots on the Left screwing things up too...some of them apparently own Mustangs and have a real hatred for anyone who believes they are entitled to money they earn....people who feel that giving up tax money equals love of country.

But enough about him.

Emissions here are not nearly like over there in CA. They are kind of strict but the people doing the actual emissions tests don't really care about their job. I took my truck in a few years ago and I actually watched it fail on the computer screen, and then they handed me a paper that said I passed. The next time I took it in they didn't even do any test at all...they just drove it over the roller and handed me the paper.

Not sure who to get behind in the race. Romney I think. You?


Wow thats pretty cool! I wish it was like that here. The emissions people here actually do their job. Although I hear there are places that you can pay alittle extra to have a non compliant car pass. If you know what I mean. :D That will probably be the route I take to get my car to pass when I get long tubes. Good news is that I only have smog once every 5 years.

In regards to the conversation about the end of the Corvette and V8's in general. I just dont think people will stand for that sort of thing. The Corvette is an american icon as well as the Mustang. I think the car companies will figure out a way just to make our V8's more fuel efficient and or produce less emissions. Thats a technology worth investing in. For me its not just the speed of the mustang its the V8 itself that makes our cars great. No engine can produce such a beautiful yet manly sound as a V8. Also no other type of engine has the same torque curve characteristics. Hell I'd rather they detune our V8 engines than give us a powerful V6. V6's just arent the same. Then we can just tune our engines back up! thats why we have the after market. I mean who on this forum leaves their Mustang stock anyway?

With respect to gas milage, maybe the answer is cylinder deactivation in cruise? Hey I dont mind not running on all 8 cylinders if it means I can save some gas on the highway. I daily drive my mustang. However there needs to be a switch that locks in full time V8 mode for "spirited driving";)

As for candidates, I like Guiliani because of his record on fighting crime as NY's district attorney and his no BS attitude. Plus I know he'll be strong on foriegn policy. I know hes not the most conservate but I like how he doesnt pander to voters like the others. He just tells it how it is. I would say Romney is a close second because of this strong conservative and free market economic views.

However I'm curious on the candidates views on this latest emissions bill and the whole subject in general. that could swing my vote.

The issue is gasoline and oil supply gentlemen.

The V-8 will not go anywhere soon, they will make it more energy efficient with Natural , Gas, Propane, Displacement on Demand etc.


In the next 2 years, face it, gas will be at least $3.50 pergallon min in Suburban Comunities,
$3.65 in Major Cities.

Oil is no longer $ .69-.99 cent a quart.

1.Alot of US companies are outsourcing to foreign nations to save money resulting in less good paying jobs in the USA.

2. Min wage has not went up, but the cost of living has.

3.This war has cost us alot of money gas and oil ,.

4.EPA Laws are getting strict for cars, when its Industries, causing the problems.

Do to the economy and gasoline, alot of changes are gonna have to be made to survive.

And if your not making $35,000 or bove a year, you'll SOON be at poverty level.

ORIGINAL: aode06

The issue is gasoline and oil supply gentlemen.

The V-8 will not go anywhere soon, they will make it more energy efficient with Natural , Gas, Propane, Displacement on Demand etc.


In the next 2 years, face it, gas will be at least $3.50 pergallon min in Suburban Comunities,
$3.65 in Major Cities.

Oil is no longer $ .69-.99 cent a quart.

1.Alot of US companies are outsourcing to foreign nations to save money resulting in less good paying jobs in the USA.

2. Min wage has not went up, but the cost of living has.

3.This war has cost us alot of money gas and oil ,.

4.EPA Laws are getting strict for cars, when its Industries, causing the problems.

Do to the economy and gasoline, alot of changes are gonna have to be made to survive.

And if your not making $35,000 or bove a year, you'll SOON be at poverty level.




what do you mean gas will be that high? it already has been that high.. expect $4 in 2 years not too many good paying jobs are outsourced to foreign countries...
2. min wage has gone up, but doesn't reflect the cost of living increase + inflation properly but thats fine, im against a min wage.
4. agree sort of.. ive seen big cities with no real industry nearby but tons of smog because of cars.. (phoenix, not saying they don't have pollutants other than cars, but i think that is their main source, also since they dont really have any mass transport)

35k is proverty in many areas already.. 35k is a lot in some areas too (the South mainly, where you can still buy a decent house for like 100k)

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

I agree with your view of the current state of things in the Convervative world. As you can see we have some real idiots on the Left screwing things up too...some of them apparently own Mustangs and have a real hatred for anyone who believes they are entitled to money they earn....people who feel that giving up tax money equals love of country.



Get over yourself. You obviously aren't doing too bad. You have a GT with more than a handful of mod's. How much do you even pay for taxes? Do you really think you need that extra money so you can put it into your car? Some stupid lady in an SUV is probably gonna rearend the damn thing at some point in time anyways... I love my mustang, no doubt about it, and I have a v-8 (surprise surprise), but the future is going to slap you in the face whether you come screaming or not.

Please, for the love of God, will you answer if you see this connection: You support the mustang, you pay for the mustang. Therefore, you support the country, you help pay for things that the country represents. No matter what you do, taxes aren't going to go away. FACE IT, nothing will stop them, if not income based, they will become sales based. THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO GO AWAY.

And finally, answer the damn question, will your mustang be able to beat a 6 cylinder grand national that has as much money as you put into your stang? HELLL NOOOO

Don't parade around the issue and answer the damn questions, you can't keep running from problems forever.

Displacement on demand I could probably live with, as long as the technology is reliable and not intrusive.

But it'll be a much tougher sell to get me interested in turbocharging, if not a downright impossibility. I just don't care for the fact that it introduces some nonlinearity between my intentions and the end result. I can (and should) plan my line through a corner before I'm actually in it, but I think it's asking a little too much to also have to plan on adding throttle in anticipation of some variable amounts of lag and actual boost.

Single-issue pressure groups annoy me just by their existence, as they apparently refuse to believe that any other issue is as important as their own. What needs to be done is to drag all the "greenies", "safety nazis", and fuel economy knee-jerk artists kicking and screaming into the same room and not let any of them out until they can all see the other points of view and agree that everybody needs to make a few compromises.


Norm

ORIGINAL: Mishri


what do you mean gas will be that high? it already has been that high.. expect $4 in 2 years not too many good paying jobs are outsourced to foreign countries...Â*
2. min wage has gone up, but doesn't reflect the cost of living increase + inflation properly but thats fine, im against a min wage.
4. agree sort of.. ive seen big cities with no real industry nearby but tons of smog because of cars.. (phoenix, not saying they don't have pollutants other than cars, but i think that is their main source, also since they dont really have any mass transport)

35k is proverty in many areas already.. 35k is a lot in some areas too (the South mainly, where you can still buy a decent house for like 100k)


Im sorry but the bold sums it up right here, this is absolute proof of why conservatives have a problem. It is always about themselves and never about others. You could have 9 ferrari's and you would still want more. You're against the minimum wage huh? Well what about the other half of the country that survives off of them? But its okay, they can go **** themselves right....

Meh, I could care less really. When I'm in the market to buy a car, I'll buy what appeals to me, its as simple as that.

who is only making minimum wage? i don't know anybody.. even people at mcdonalds here are making $9/hr.. (and cost of living here is low).. mygrandparentsowned their own retail store.. they could barely afford to pay some high school kidminimum wage to sit at the counter and operate the register.. after over 25 years in business they finally had to close it.. minimum wage should be dictated by how low someone would be willing to be paid to do a job rather than forced by the government.. I'm not saying that the minimum wage killed the store though either.. there were other factors.. I'm mostly saying that nobody outside of high school really makes mininum wage.. (and if you do then there is something wrong with you)

min. wage mostly hurts small businesses in low income areas because they can't afford to higher anyone.

btw, im not conservitave.

As some have stated above, I don't think the V8 will die entirely as long as internal combustion engines are being mass produced. I DO think we will see smaller displacement V8's in the not so distant future. Don't be surprised if in a decadeor two the Mustang V8 is around 4 liters or so. There will always be a demand for a rumbling V8. By putting more fuel efficient 4 and 6 cylinder engines in the majority of vehicles, auto makers boost their average fuel economy, so that a Mustang V8 is still plausible.

I can't type/edit fast enough to keep up

kyle2k - and when it all comes down to income vs the cost of living -the tax-and-spend / spend-and-tax liberals are better in what legitimate respect? That the consequences tend to be delayed?

I doubt that all conservatives are against minimum wage. Certainly not those who have held jobs at or near that level for any reason. If you're truly a conservative, you believe that there are limits on what government should get involved in, not that you automatically become one at some level of income or privilege or stop being one and become a liberal if your situation changes in the other direction.


Norm

ORIGINAL: kyle2k

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

I agree with your view of the current state of things in the Convervative world. As you can see we have some real idiots on the Left screwing things up too...some of them apparently own Mustangs and have a real hatred for anyone who believes they are entitled to money they earn....people who feel that giving up tax money equals love of country.



Get over yourself. You obviously aren't doing too bad. You have a GT with more than a handful of mod's. How much do you even pay for taxes? Do you really think you need that extra money so you can put it into your car? Some stupid lady in an SUV is probably gonna rearend the damn thing at some point in time anyways... I love my mustang, no doubt about it, and I have a v-8 (surprise surprise), but the future is going to slap you in the face whether you come screaming or not.

Please, for the love of God, will you answer if you see this connection: You support the mustang, you pay for the mustang. Therefore, you support the country, you help pay for things that the country represents. No matter what you do, taxes aren't going to go away. FACE IT, nothing will stop them, if not income based, they will become sales based. THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO GO AWAY.

And finally, answer the damn question, will your mustang be able to beat a 6 cylinder grand national that has as much money as you put into your stang? HELLL NOOOO

Don't parade around the issue and answer the damn questions, you can't keep running from problems forever.


I am going to try to be civil here, even though you have cursed at me.

I am not against taxes. I understand we need Fire, Police, Roads, Hospitals...all of that. Here in Maryland the people threw out our Republican Gov. who had a surplus of cash on hand...and replaced him with a Gov. that just raised taxes on every single Marylander by $1222. That means oif you are single, you owe an additional $1222. If you have a family of 5, you owe an additional $6110....that's in ADDITION to what we have already been paying. The Government already takes about 30% of what we earn off the top...then there's property tax (which we have to pay on somethng we already OWN, every year...several thousand dollars)Then there's the death tax....the government takes 60% of what you try to leave to your children as inheritance....that is outright stealing from the American People.

It all comes down to this. You don't have any right to decide how charitable or selfish I am with the money I earn. I don't have any right to tell you how to live or what to do with your money....and I DON'T. I believe you are free to do whatever you wish as long as you are obeying laws and not harming anyone.

I also believe you are responsible for your own successes and failures. This is what true Conservatives think. I want all people to succeed, but not on my dime. It's up to me to make things go my way. It's up to everyone else to make things go their way. It's not selfish, it's sensible.

If you punish successful people, they stop trying to succeed....if you reward thelazy, you create a class of people who thinkthe successful people owe them something.

I know I'm not going to change your mind, but you seem to think of anyone who has different views than your own stupid. I didn't call you stupid, I only called you a liberal. You made it clear that you were so I don't see why you are so offended.

Will my car beat a Grand National? When I Procharge it it will.

ORIGINAL: aode06

The issue is gasoline and oil supply gentlemen.

The V-8 will not go anywhere soon, they will make it more energy efficient with Natural , Gas, Propane, Displacement on Demand etc.


In the next 2 years, face it, gas will be at least $3.50 pergallon min in Suburban Comunities,
$3.65 in Major Cities.

Oil is no longer $ .69-.99 cent a quart.

1.Alot of US companies are outsourcing to foreign nations to save money resulting in less good paying jobs in the USA.

2. Min wage has not went up, but the cost of living has.

3.This war has cost us alot of money gas and oil ,.

4.EPA Laws are getting strict for cars, when its Industries, causing the problems.

Do to the economy and gasoline, alot of changes are gonna have to be made to survive.

And if your not making $35,000 or bove a year, you'll SOON be at poverty level.




Good point. Another reason we have to pay such high gas prices is because of the high price of foriegn oil and lack of gasoline refineries. To my knowledge, there hasnt been a new refineries built since the 1970s. The reason for this is the eviromental crowd screams bloody murder and holds any new refinery contrustion up in court. The american oil companies dont really mind because they can just produce less (costs them less) and just charge us more. Americans are getting hosed. Also I hear we have PLENTY of oil here in the US but we cant drill because, Yes our friends the eviromentalists have prevented any such drilling. For exampleThat would be the answer right there. Its plain and simple.

1. Drill for our own oil. Indendent. Tell OPEC and hugo chavez to go pound sand.

2. Build newer, cleaner, more efficient oil refineries.

It would be nice to see a person in power say that stuff rather than all this green bs. We need real solutions. I'm all for alternative energy. we need to continue to work on that. but for now. our economy depends oil. We have a tone of it. lets use it.

hmm im confused about grand national.. isn't that a buick regal? factory 240bhp for the latest model? or the ultra rare '87one that nobody can really find that has stats like: 0-60mph (97km/h) took just 4.7s with a 13.4s/104mph (167km/h) quarter-mile. ??

aside from the oil field in alaska there isn't really much oil to be had.. lotsa natural gas and coal in WY though.. (which the enviro's whine about) in the gulf of mexico there is a massive oil field, probably one of the largest in the world.. but they haven't been able to seperate it from the sediments yet so its so far unusable. but thats all ive heard on that..

ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson

Displacement on demand I could probably live with, as long as the technology is reliable and not intrusive.

But it'll be a much tougher sell to get me interested in turbocharging, if not a downright impossibility. I just don't care for the fact that it introduces some nonlinearity between my intentions and the end result. I can (and should) plan my line through a corner before I'm actually in it, but I think it's asking a little too much to also have to plan on adding throttle in anticipation of some variable amounts of lag and actual boost.

Single-issue pressure groups annoy me just by their existence, as they apparently refuse to believe that any other issue is as important as their own. What needs to be done is to drag all the "greenies", "safety nazis", and fuel economy knee-jerk artists kicking and screaming into the same room and not let any of them out until they can all see the other points of view and agree that everybody needs to make a few compromises.


Norm


I don't see how a flat torque curve from 2250 RPM to redline isnon-linear, it's still a straight line... :eek:

Take a look at the twin turbo or single turbo with direct inject. The TQ line on a dyno is pretty much flat. Way different than any N/A engine that builds up over the course of it's RPM curve.

Eitherway, if ford would simply add direct inject to their entire existing lineup, it would help a lot with MPG. The down side is the price ofall theircars would probably go up 10-15%. Most people would bitch about that too.

ORIGINAL: Derf00

I don't see how a flat torque curve from 2250 RPM to redline isnon-linear, it's still a straight line... :eek:

Take a look at the twin turbo or single turbo with direct inject. The TQ line on a dyno is pretty much flat. Way different than any N/A engine that builds up over the course of it's RPM curve.

Eitherway, if ford would simply add direct inject to their entire existing lineup, it would help a lot with MPG. The down side is the price ofall theircars would probably go up 10-15%. Most people would bitch about that too.

That's measured under conditions much more closely related to steady-state than what happens when you're driving. Even dyno plots taken at 300 rpm/second acceleration doesn't fully represent real-world response in the lower gears. The nonlinearity that I'm referring to has to do with time lag and variable amounts of boost. Understand that my choice of competition (auto-X) and my normal driving involve frequent situations where you'd go off boost completely and would have to wait for it to be restored. Under those conditons, you'll be at less, perhaps far less torque output than the envelope picture that is normally published suggests.

I have in fact driven a turbo Buick back to back against mythumbnail car, backwhen it was still carbureted. They are essentially built on the same chassis. The turbo Buick was a dealer demo with enough miles on it that I wasn't nervous about going to WOT. Good midrange torque, probably about the same maximum number as my 0.040" over 350 was putting out in that iteration. But it took a moment for it to all show up, especially at lower rpms. Meanwhile, the effects of much smaller displacement (231 CID vs 357) and lower compression ratio (my 350 was running nominally a little under 10.0:1 vs 8.x or less - I'm no longer sure what the turbo CR was precisely, as it's been a while). Anyway, that's a lot to give up, and even for durations of less than a second it's clearly noticeable. I happen to dislike that feel, though I do understand that it may not make much difference to others. It's probably least noticeable or bothersome to those who are primarily interested in drag-racing or top speed running where once you're into boost you don't drop out of it for the duration of your run.


Norm

local://upfiles/62186/A6429AADF9E1432F8C35D4D21B6B8936.jpg

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

I agree with your view of the current state of things in the Convervative world. As you can see we have some real idiots on the Left screwing things up too...some of them apparently own Mustangs and have a real hatred for anyone who believes they are entitled to money they earn....people who feel that iving up tax money equals love of country.

But enough about him.

Emissions here are not nearly like over there in CA. They are kind of strict but the people doing the actual emissions tests don't really care about their job. I took my truck in a few years ago and I actually watched it fail on the computer screen, and then they handed me a paper that said I passed. The next time I took it in they didn't even do any test at all...they just drove it over the roller and handed me the paper.

Not sure who to get behind in the race. Romney I think. You?



In that case I guess I apologize for swearing at you and not being civil, but the bold up top does nothing to settle me down or make my tone diplomatic. Secondly, I didn't realize how severe taxes are in Maryland. That does sound bad, but i think the death tax is more of a "spend the money and help the economy instead of hoard it together for many years" mentality. I had a political discussion with my PolSci teacher today, and he proved a point to me today i didnt consider...."don't make generalizations about any political side or person." And I think thats where we have taken this too far. I will work to generalize less, but please, not every liberal hates v-8's and would prefer prius's, I myself am just more supportive of finding ways to make power with less weight, gas, etc... I might get the v-8 next run, i might not, we'll see how it goes.

Most likely all they will do is direct injection which allows you to far exceed the power levels of the design currently and will increase fuel mileage and emissions because it will burn cleaner and more efficiently. Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me, maybe by then they will start with solenoid actuated valves, thats what I want to adjust timing on. haha

ORIGINAL: kyle2k


ORIGINAL: suoperdave84

I agree with your view of the current state of things in the Convervative world. As you can see we have some real idiots on the Left screwing things up too...some of them apparently own Mustangs and have a real hatred for anyone who believes they are entitled to money they earn....people who feel that iving up tax money equals love of country.

But enough about him.

Emissions here are not nearly like over there in CA. They are kind of strict but the people doing the actual emissions tests don't really care about their job. I took my truck in a few years ago and I actually watched it fail on the computer screen, and then they handed me a paper that said I passed. The next time I took it in they didn't even do any test at all...they just drove it over the roller and handed me the paper.

Not sure who to get behind in the race. Romney I think. You?



In that case I guess I apologize for swearing at you and not being civil, but the bold up top does nothing to settle me down or make my tone diplomatic. Secondly, I didn't realize how severe taxes are in Maryland. That does sound bad, but i think the death tax is more of a "spend the money and help the economy instead of hoard it together for many years" mentality. I had a political discussion with my PolSci teacher today, and he proved a point to me today i didnt consider...."don't make generalizations about any political side or person." And I think thats where we have taken this too far. I will work to generalize less, but please, not every liberal hates v-8's and would prefer prius's, I myself am just more supportive of finding ways to make power with less weight, gas, etc... I might get the v-8 next run, i might not, we'll see how it goes.


Well I wrote that after all the cursing, and I appreciate your apology. Please accept mine as well. I don't think Liberals are idiots, but it is very hard to understand their views most of the time.

And I didn't mean to imply that Liberals hate V8s, although some of them do. And often you see them being very intolerant of people like myself.....not quite the tolerant bunch they seem to think they are. But there are plenty of good people on the Left, don't get me wrong. I just happen to totally disagree with the philosophy.

There's nothing wrong with wanting a good power:weight ratio. Everyone benefits there. but there's nothing wrong with wanting a powerful V8 either.

Again, I apologize if I offended in any way.

I think the best way to get best of both worlds, weight, power, fuel economy, sound, etc, would be by making an engine with the following attributes ( so to speak my 2010 mustang gt or higher wish list).

1. V-8
2. N/A
3. 5L
4. Carbon composite block :P (lol yeah right)
5. direct injection
6. displacement on demand

I found an article saying just adding direct injection could increase power up to 15%, with a 6% decrease in emissions, couple that with displacement on demand and you will have a 380hp maching from the factory that will get probably 30% better fuel economy, and would be absolutely deadly if combined with an aftermarket supercharger or turbo. I would pay 40k for that mustang btw...:P

ORIGINAL: Norm Peterson

ORIGINAL: Derf00

I don't see how a flat torque curve from 2250 RPM to redline isnon-linear, it's still a straight line... :eek:

Take a look at the twin turbo or single turbo with direct inject. The TQ line on a dyno is pretty much flat. Way different than any N/A engine that builds up over the course of it's RPM curve.

Eitherway, if ford would simply add direct inject to their entire existing lineup, it would help a lot with MPG. The down side is the price ofall theircars would probably go up 10-15%. Most people would bitch about that too.

That's measured under conditions much more closely related to steady-state than what happens when you're driving. Even dyno plots taken at 300 rpm/second acceleration doesn't fully represent real-world response in the lower gears. The nonlinearity that I'm referring to has to do with time lag and variable amounts of boost. Understand that my choice of competition (auto-X) and my normal driving involve frequent situations where you'd go off boost completely and would have to wait for it to be restored. Under those conditons, you'll be at less, perhaps far less torque output than the envelope picture that is normally published suggests.

I have in fact driven a turbo Buick back to back against my avatar car, backwhen it was still carbureted. They are essentially built on the same chassis. The turbo Buick was a dealer demo with enough miles on it that I wasn't nervous about going to WOT. Good midrange torque, probably about the same maximum number as my 0.040" over 350 was putting out in that iteration. But it took a moment for it to all show up, especially at lower rpms. Meanwhile, the effects of much smaller displacement (231 CID vs 357) and lower compression ratio (my 350 was running nominally a little under 10.0:1 vs 8.x or less - I'm no longer sure what the turbo CR was precisely, as it's been a while). Anyway, that's a lot to give up, and even for durations of less than a second it's clearly noticeable. I happen to dislike that feel, though I do understand that it may not make much difference to others. It's probably least noticeable or bothersome to those who are primarily interested in drag-racing or top speed running where once you're into boost you don't drop out of it for the duration of your run.


Norm


OK, well it makes sense for auto-x but for the majority of drivers out there that aren't going to drive the way you do. 2250 and above is not unreasonable.

I don't know. 2250 rpms might be an exaggerated point of lag on a TT v-6, on the 335i FULL boost is out by 1750 or even faster i think ive seen, so...thats like 300ft-lbs by 1750 rpm, does an N/A v-8 even make torque that fast? I also hope they lengthen the top end on the TT-v6, like an 8k redline....that would be nice.

fred - I notice that sort of thing even in moderate street driving. Did, actually. Don't evenlike it when an automatic transmission shifts only a second or so earlier or later than I would (but that's really a separate rant).

kyle - it would be interesting to find out what the actual traces of torque over time would be from a slow, constant speed roll for the 335i vs a S197 GT. I suspect that the S197 would briefly show much better numbers, give away a bit as the boost came up to full strength in the 335i, and come back on again as the 4.6 approached its peak. Let's assume comparable gearing and weight, and I'm betting that the overall advantage in that sort of cut-and-thrust driving lies with the larger NA engine. Less fuel-efficient in cruise mode? Probably.


Norm

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84
He's got a lot of people hating the Right and I believe that the hatred for him here in Maryland is what got us our Communist Governor Martin O'Malley. Talk about rage. I can't stand this blue state anymore.


Amen to that.

PS: YEAH 6% sales tax!

haha my sales tax is 8.75% for General merchandise but only 7% for vehicle rate
_____

ORIGINAL: godminus1

ORIGINAL: suoperdave84
He's got a lot of people hating the Right and I believe that the hatred for him here in Maryland is what got us our Communist Governor Martin O'Malley. Talk about rage. I can't stand this blue state anymore.


Amen to that.

PS: YEAH 6% sales tax!


Someone who feels my pain!

I decided not to buy anyhting in the state anymore. I will go look at the mall, etc, but when I buy I will buy tax-free online. I don't care if it costs more for shipping, I am not paying 20% more sales tax.

Boycott OhNoMalley! BUY ONLINE!

So, why all the resistance to more power on LESS gas? If someone told me my Mustang would have 40 more hp and get +2 mpg, then why would I compain?

Anyway, the Mustang has had a turbo option before, it survived just fine.


As a country, there are two approaches to using less gas. One is to produce more efficient cars that no one wants to buy or drive. That's the solution we usually go for in this country. It keeps gas at the same price, but gives enthuiastist nothing to drive.

The second is to make gas more expensive and allow the driver to decided what he purchases. The Europeans prefer the second solution. They live closer to work and most drive small diesels to save money on gas or take the train. Those solutions exist because gas is expensive. If you're an enthuiastist, than you can still buy a Prosche and knock yourself out on the Autobahn. You just pay for your fun. Automakers strongly prefer this option.

I would like to see a option for the v8 and a option for a straight 6 turbo. I have had a turbo supra for about 12 years now and like the power better on the mustang a lower rpms but once my turbo spools up there is no chance for my mustang. I will turbo chargemy mustang in the near future, then hopefully it will pull better in the upper rpms. TURBO's ROCK
I get 18-19 miles per gallon with the mustang
I get 23-24 miles per gallon with my supra

ORIGINAL: supracrowdis

I would like to see a option for the v8 and a option for a straight 6 turbo. I have had a turbo supra for about 12 years now and like the power better on the mustang a lower rpms but once my turbo spools up there is no chance for my mustang. I will turbo chargemy mustang in the near future, then hopefully it will pull better in the upper rpms. TURBO's ROCK
I get 18-19 miles per gallon with the mustang
I get 23-24 miles per gallon with my supra


I think the problem with an scenario like this is that the V6 turbo would be in the same price range as the V8...and the HP would be in about the same range too. You might actually even get a little more power out of the 6, which would not go over well within the company.

The reason Chrysler refuses to make a 2 door 300 (which a lot of people have wanted) is that the Crossfire would not sell as well. They have a really weird way of doing things at car companies.

Another problem is they tend to make whatever they want and then TELL the public that it is what they want....as opposed to the old way where companies made stuff that they thought people would want and then see if it sells.

V8 or bust...

Sorry for all you 6-ers, glad you've made the V8 stang possible, but it just doesn't sound as nice as 8...
If there is a V8 option, I will get it. They are just wonderfull motors, total harmony. I doubt they will phase them out, it would be... stupid...

Mustang will die a little without a V8... But then... All us GT/Shelby etc. drivers will be driving... the last of the V8's... And that is kinda cool too...

Hello?? Minimum wage jobs are stepping stone jobs, jobs that you take while you are going to school or whatnot. If you get one of these as a career jobthen that isnot anyone elsesproblemORIGINAL: kyle2k


ORIGINAL: Mishri


what do you mean gas will be that high? it already has been that high.. expect $4 in 2 years not too many good paying jobs are outsourced to foreign countries...
2. min wage has gone up, but doesn't reflect the cost of living increase + inflation properly but thats fine, im against a min wage.
4. agree sort of.. ive seen big cities with no real industry nearby but tons of smog because of cars.. (phoenix, not saying they don't have pollutants other than cars, but i think that is their main source, also since they dont really have any mass transport)

35k is proverty in many areas already.. 35k is a lot in some areas too (the South mainly, where you can still buy a decent house for like 100k)


Im sorry but the bold sums it up right here, this is absolute proof of why conservatives have a problem. It is always about themselves and never about others. You could have 9 ferrari's and you would still want more. You're against the minimum wage huh? Well what about the other half of the country that survives off of them? But its okay, they can go **** themselves right....

Hey..I'm doing my part. I'm driving a 'green' Mustang. :D

I'm fine with it. I have confidence that the new engines would be very capable. I just hope that it doesn't sound crappy though.

I love the sound of Skyline engines :D

I like the sound of skylines as well, but... Not from a mustang...
Without the V8, the true muscle-engine is gone...

They could always make even a smaller displacement V8... Bye Bye torque, but you'll retain the V8 grumble...Although I feel the current 4.6 grumble is already hopelessly outclassed by even the “small-block� V8's from yester year. There is no replacement for displacement, even when it comes to exhaust-tone…

ORIGINAL: Mishri

aside from the oil field in alaska there isn't really much oil to be had.. lotsa natural gas and coal in WY though.. (which the enviro's whine about) in the gulf of mexico there is a massive oil field, probably one of the largest in the world.. but they haven't been able to seperate it from the sediments yet so its so far unusable. but thats all ive heard on that..


My Grandpa is a small time oil producer in Oklahoma. My dad and brother both work for him. According to them, the problem is not the supply of oil but rather not enough refineries. In November by family had 4000 thousand gallons of oil that they had to sit on for two weeks because the pipeline in OK was full. This meant they didn't get paid and this is a common problem. I don't know if the pipeline was really full or if the refineries were just not accepting shipments so they could keep oil prices high. Also according to my Grandpa there is enough oil in Texas and Oklahoma to last another 100 years at current consumption. I know consumption will go up but were are hardly tapping the iceberg of oil in the gulf or Alaska, not to mention the California coastline is basically floating on oil reserves. As matter of fact my family was fixing to drill a new oil well but didn't because the refineries will not take anymore from them. We need more refineries. But atleast we know we have more oil when the refineries are ready to take more.

My Lincoln LS had a 3.9 V-8 that made about 280 HP and 285 TQ. Propelled my 4000lb car to 60 in about 6 seconds

ORIGINAL: Justice



They could always make even a smaller displacement V8... Bye Bye torque, but you'll retain the V8 grumble...Although I feel the current 4.6 grumble is already hopelessly outclassed by even the “small-block� V8's from yester year. There is no replacement for displacement, even when it comes to exhaust-tone…