I don't see how a flat torque curve from 2250 RPM to redline is non-linear, it's still a straight line...
Take a look at the twin turbo or single turbo with direct inject. The TQ line on a dyno is pretty much flat. Way different than any N/A engine that builds up over the course of it's RPM curve.
Eitherway, if ford would simply add direct inject to their entire existing lineup, it would help a lot with MPG. The down side is the price of all their cars would probably go up 10-15%. Most people would bitch about that too.
That's measured under conditions much more closely related to steady-state than what happens when you're driving. Even dyno plots taken at 300 rpm/second acceleration doesn't fully represent real-world response in the lower gears. The nonlinearity that I'm referring to has to do with time lag and variable amounts of boost. Understand that my choice of competition (auto-X) and my normal driving involve frequent situations where you'd go off boost completely and would have to wait for it to be restored. Under those conditons, you'll be at less, perhaps far less torque output than the envelope picture that is normally published suggests.
I have in fact driven a turbo Buick back to back against my thumbnail car, back when it was still carbureted. They are essentially built on the same chassis. The turbo Buick was a dealer demo with enough miles on it that I wasn't nervous about going to WOT. Good midrange torque, probably about the same maximum number as my 0.040" over 350 was putting out in that iteration. But it took a moment for it to all show up, especially at lower rpms. Meanwhile, the effects of much smaller displacement (231 CID vs 357) and lower compression ratio (my 350 was running nominally a little under 10.0:1 vs 8.x or less - I'm no longer sure what the turbo CR was precisely, as it's been a while). Anyway, that's a lot to give up, and even for durations of less than a second it's clearly noticeable. I happen to dislike that feel, though I do understand that it may not make much difference to others. It's probably least noticeable or bothersome to those who are primarily interested in drag-racing or top speed running where once you're into boost you don't drop out of it for the duration of your run.
I agree with your view of the current state of things in the Convervative world. As you can see we have some real idiots on the Left screwing things up too. ..some of them apparently own Mustangs and have a real hatred for anyone who believes they are entitled to money they earn....people who feel that iving up tax money equals love of country.
But enough about him.
Emissions here are not nearly like over there in CA. They are kind of strict but the people doing the actual emissions tests don't really care about their job. I took my truck in a few years ago and I actually watched it fail on the computer screen, and then they handed me a paper that said I passed. The next time I took it in they didn't even do any test at all...they just drove it over the roller and handed me the paper.
Not sure who to get behind in the race. Romney I think. You?
In that case I guess I apologize for swearing at you and not being civil, but the bold up top does nothing to settle me down or make my tone diplomatic. Secondly, I didn't realize how severe taxes are in Maryland. That does sound bad, but i think the death tax is more of a "spend the money and help the economy instead of hoard it together for many years" mentality. I had a political discussion with my PolSci teacher today, and he proved a point to me today i didnt consider...."don't make generalizations about any political side or person." And I think thats where we have taken this too far. I will work to generalize less, but please, not every liberal hates v-8's and would prefer prius's, I myself am just more supportive of finding ways to make power with less weight, gas, etc... I might get the v-8 next run, i might not, we'll see how it goes.
Most likely all they will do is direct injection which allows you to far exceed the power levels of the design currently and will increase fuel mileage and emissions because it will burn cleaner and more efficiently. Doesn't sound like a bad idea to me, maybe by then they will start with solenoid actuated valves, thats what I want to adjust timing on. haha
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06 4.0L with intentions far from stock -------------------------------------------
I agree with your view of the current state of things in the Convervative world. As you can see we have some real idiots on the Left screwing things up too. ..some of them apparently own Mustangs and have a real hatred for anyone who believes they are entitled to money they earn....people who feel that iving up tax money equals love of country.
But enough about him.
Emissions here are not nearly like over there in CA. They are kind of strict but the people doing the actual emissions tests don't really care about their job. I took my truck in a few years ago and I actually watched it fail on the computer screen, and then they handed me a paper that said I passed. The next time I took it in they didn't even do any test at all...they just drove it over the roller and handed me the paper.
Not sure who to get behind in the race. Romney I think. You?
In that case I guess I apologize for swearing at you and not being civil, but the bold up top does nothing to settle me down or make my tone diplomatic. Secondly, I didn't realize how severe taxes are in Maryland. That does sound bad, but i think the death tax is more of a "spend the money and help the economy instead of hoard it together for many years" mentality. I had a political discussion with my PolSci teacher today, and he proved a point to me today i didnt consider...."don't make generalizations about any political side or person." And I think thats where we have taken this too far. I will work to generalize less, but please, not every liberal hates v-8's and would prefer prius's, I myself am just more supportive of finding ways to make power with less weight, gas, etc... I might get the v-8 next run, i might not, we'll see how it goes.
Well I wrote that after all the cursing, and I appreciate your apology. Please accept mine as well. I don't think Liberals are idiots, but it is very hard to understand their views most of the time.
And I didn't mean to imply that Liberals hate V8s, although some of them do. And often you see them being very intolerant of people like myself.....not quite the tolerant bunch they seem to think they are. But there are plenty of good people on the Left, don't get me wrong. I just happen to totally disagree with the philosophy.
There's nothing wrong with wanting a good power:weight ratio. Everyone benefits there. but there's nothing wrong with wanting a powerful V8 either.
Again, I apologize if I offended in any way.
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Bucephalus '07 Alloy Metallic Mustang GT Brenspeed JLT CAI Eibach Pro kit 20" Silver Foose Nitrous Wheels Motive 4.10s
I think the best way to get best of both worlds, weight, power, fuel economy, sound, etc, would be by making an engine with the following attributes ( so to speak my 2010 mustang gt or higher wish list).
I found an article saying just adding direct injection could increase power up to 15%, with a 6% decrease in emissions, couple that with displacement on demand and you will have a 380hp maching from the factory that will get probably 30% better fuel economy, and would be absolutely deadly if combined with an aftermarket supercharger or turbo. I would pay 40k for that mustang btw...:P
I don't see how a flat torque curve from 2250 RPM to redline is non-linear, it's still a straight line...
Take a look at the twin turbo or single turbo with direct inject. The TQ line on a dyno is pretty much flat. Way different than any N/A engine that builds up over the course of it's RPM curve.
Eitherway, if ford would simply add direct inject to their entire existing lineup, it would help a lot with MPG. The down side is the price of all their cars would probably go up 10-15%. Most people would bitch about that too.
That's measured under conditions much more closely related to steady-state than what happens when you're driving. Even dyno plots taken at 300 rpm/second acceleration doesn't fully represent real-world response in the lower gears. The nonlinearity that I'm referring to has to do with time lag and variable amounts of boost. Understand that my choice of competition (auto-X) and my normal driving involve frequent situations where you'd go off boost completely and would have to wait for it to be restored. Under those conditons, you'll be at less, perhaps far less torque output than the envelope picture that is normally published suggests.
I have in fact driven a turbo Buick back to back against my avatar car, back when it was still carbureted. They are essentially built on the same chassis. The turbo Buick was a dealer demo with enough miles on it that I wasn't nervous about going to WOT. Good midrange torque, probably about the same maximum number as my 0.040" over 350 was putting out in that iteration. But it took a moment for it to all show up, especially at lower rpms. Meanwhile, the effects of much smaller displacement (231 CID vs 357) and lower compression ratio (my 350 was running nominally a little under 10.0:1 vs 8.x or less - I'm no longer sure what the turbo CR was precisely, as it's been a while). Anyway, that's a lot to give up, and even for durations of less than a second it's clearly noticeable. I happen to dislike that feel, though I do understand that it may not make much difference to others. It's probably least noticeable or bothersome to those who are primarily interested in drag-racing or top speed running where once you're into boost you don't drop out of it for the duration of your run.
Norm
OK, well it makes sense for auto-x but for the majority of drivers out there that aren't going to drive the way you do. 2250 and above is not unreasonable.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P Zero
He could strap a rocket to his ass and beat em on foot too. -P.
I don't know. 2250 rpms might be an exaggerated point of lag on a TT v-6, on the 335i FULL boost is out by 1750 or even faster i think ive seen, so...thats like 300ft-lbs by 1750 rpm, does an N/A v-8 even make torque that fast? I also hope they lengthen the top end on the TT-v6, like an 8k redline....that would be nice.
< Message edited by kyle2k -- 1/9/2008 11:37:57 AM >
fred - I notice that sort of thing even in moderate street driving. Did, actually. Don't even like it when an automatic transmission shifts only a second or so earlier or later than I would (but that's really a separate rant).
kyle - it would be interesting to find out what the actual traces of torque over time would be from a slow, constant speed roll for the 335i vs a S197 GT. I suspect that the S197 would briefly show much better numbers, give away a bit as the boost came up to full strength in the 335i, and come back on again as the 4.6 approached its peak. Let's assume comparable gearing and weight, and I'm betting that the overall advantage in that sort of cut-and-thrust driving lies with the larger NA engine. Less fuel-efficient in cruise mode? Probably.
ORIGINAL: suoperdave84 He's got a lot of people hating the Right and I believe that the hatred for him here in Maryland is what got us our Communist Governor Martin O'Malley. Talk about rage. I can't stand this blue state anymore.
ORIGINAL: suoperdave84 He's got a lot of people hating the Right and I believe that the hatred for him here in Maryland is what got us our Communist Governor Martin O'Malley. Talk about rage. I can't stand this blue state anymore.
Amen to that.
PS: YEAH 6% sales tax!
Someone who feels my pain!
I decided not to buy anyhting in the state anymore. I will go look at the mall, etc, but when I buy I will buy tax-free online. I don't care if it costs more for shipping, I am not paying 20% more sales tax.
Boycott OhNoMalley! BUY ONLINE!
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Bucephalus '07 Alloy Metallic Mustang GT Brenspeed JLT CAI Eibach Pro kit 20" Silver Foose Nitrous Wheels Motive 4.10s
So, why all the resistance to more power on LESS gas? If someone told me my Mustang would have 40 more hp and get +2 mpg, then why would I compain?
Anyway, the Mustang has had a turbo option before, it survived just fine.
As a country, there are two approaches to using less gas. One is to produce more efficient cars that no one wants to buy or drive. That's the solution we usually go for in this country. It keeps gas at the same price, but gives enthuiastist nothing to drive.
The second is to make gas more expensive and allow the driver to decided what he purchases. The Europeans prefer the second solution. They live closer to work and most drive small diesels to save money on gas or take the train. Those solutions exist because gas is expensive. If you're an enthuiastist, than you can still buy a Prosche and knock yourself out on the Autobahn. You just pay for your fun. Automakers strongly prefer this option.
< Message edited by wmtheflash -- 1/9/2008 5:02:05 PM >
I would like to see a option for the v8 and a option for a straight 6 turbo. I have had a turbo supra for about 12 years now and like the power better on the mustang a lower rpms but once my turbo spools up there is no chance for my mustang. I will turbo charge my mustang in the near future, then hopefully it will pull better in the upper rpms. TURBO's ROCK I get 18-19 miles per gallon with the mustang I get 23-24 miles per gallon with my supra
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06 auto gt 4.10 gears, jba shorty headers, flowmaster's, udp's, C&l intake 93 tune w/sct 2 , 20x8.5 20x10 nitto 555's, eibach pro kit ,d-spec ,steeda adj pan bar, bmr upper & lower control arms,tci 3000 stall,steeda g-trac brace,14" antena,35% tint
I would like to see a option for the v8 and a option for a straight 6 turbo. I have had a turbo supra for about 12 years now and like the power better on the mustang a lower rpms but once my turbo spools up there is no chance for my mustang. I will turbo charge my mustang in the near future, then hopefully it will pull better in the upper rpms. TURBO's ROCK I get 18-19 miles per gallon with the mustang I get 23-24 miles per gallon with my supra
I think the problem with an scenario like this is that the V6 turbo would be in the same price range as the V8...and the HP would be in about the same range too. You might actually even get a little more power out of the 6, which would not go over well within the company.
The reason Chrysler refuses to make a 2 door 300 (which a lot of people have wanted) is that the Crossfire would not sell as well. They have a really weird way of doing things at car companies.
Another problem is they tend to make whatever they want and then TELL the public that it is what they want....as opposed to the old way where companies made stuff that they thought people would want and then see if it sells.
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Bucephalus '07 Alloy Metallic Mustang GT Brenspeed JLT CAI Eibach Pro kit 20" Silver Foose Nitrous Wheels Motive 4.10s
Sorry for all you 6-ers, glad you've made the V8 stang possible, but it just doesn't sound as nice as 8... If there is a V8 option, I will get it. They are just wonderfull motors, total harmony. I doubt they will phase them out, it would be... stupid...
Mustang will die a little without a V8... But then... All us GT/Shelby etc. drivers will be driving... the last of the V8's... And that is kinda cool too...
Hello?? Minimum wage jobs are stepping stone jobs, jobs that you take while you are going to school or whatnot. If you get one of these as a career job then that is not anyone elses problem
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ORIGINAL: kyle2k
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mishri
what do you mean gas will be that high? it already has been that high.. expect $4 in 2 years not too many good paying jobs are outsourced to foreign countries... 2. min wage has gone up, but doesn't reflect the cost of living increase + inflation properly but thats fine, im against a min wage. 4. agree sort of.. ive seen big cities with no real industry nearby but tons of smog because of cars.. (phoenix, not saying they don't have pollutants other than cars, but i think that is their main source, also since they dont really have any mass transport)
35k is proverty in many areas already.. 35k is a lot in some areas too (the South mainly, where you can still buy a decent house for like 100k)
Im sorry but the bold sums it up right here, this is absolute proof of why conservatives have a problem. It is always about themselves and never about others. You could have 9 ferrari's and you would still want more. You're against the minimum wage huh? Well what about the other half of the country that survives off of them? But its okay, they can go **** themselves right....
I like the sound of skylines as well, but... Not from a mustang... Without the V8, the true muscle-engine is gone...
They could always make even a smaller displacement V8... Bye Bye torque, but you'll retain the V8 grumble... Although I feel the current 4.6 grumble is already hopelessly outclassed by even the “small-block” V8's from yester year. There is no replacement for displacement, even when it comes to exhaust-tone…
aside from the oil field in alaska there isn't really much oil to be had.. lotsa natural gas and coal in WY though.. (which the enviro's whine about) in the gulf of mexico there is a massive oil field, probably one of the largest in the world.. but they haven't been able to seperate it from the sediments yet so its so far unusable. but thats all ive heard on that..
My Grandpa is a small time oil producer in Oklahoma. My dad and brother both work for him. According to them, the problem is not the supply of oil but rather not enough refineries. In November by family had 4000 thousand gallons of oil that they had to sit on for two weeks because the pipeline in OK was full. This meant they didn't get paid and this is a common problem. I don't know if the pipeline was really full or if the refineries were just not accepting shipments so they could keep oil prices high. Also according to my Grandpa there is enough oil in Texas and Oklahoma to last another 100 years at current consumption. I know consumption will go up but were are hardly tapping the iceberg of oil in the gulf or Alaska, not to mention the California coastline is basically floating on oil reserves. As matter of fact my family was fixing to drill a new oil well but didn't because the refineries will not take anymore from them. We need more refineries. But atleast we know we have more oil when the refineries are ready to take more.
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RE: End of the V-8? Ford bets on direct injection and t... - 
RE: End of the V-8? Ford bets on direct injection and t... - 
