I am thinking about installing EFI on my 70 fastback (Long way to go though). I found the retrotek EFI system and was wondering if anyone had tried this system. It loos like a carburetor and bolts onto a regular carburetor type intake manifold. Her is the manufacturer's website.
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ORIGINAL: 67mustang302
Just go for it, and pust a FAST XFI setup on it.
You don't have to buy anything else. it comes with the computer. The price is cheep if you consider buying a EFI unit, intake, throttle body, injectors, rails, fuel pressure regulator and maybe a mass air unit depending on the computer. Now when you look at this then the Retrotek is not so bad. I like it a lot, even good for supercharging and it has a variable output so you can use a single line for the fuel pump (no return line).
Its self tuning and its efi its a step up from a carb but not quite the muilt port injection.I havent used that but there push button shifter i put on a 32 ford kit car my uncle bought it worked great easy to put on and set up.
You don't have to buy anything else. it comes with the computer. The price is cheep if you consider buying a EFI unit, intake, throttle body, injectors, rails, fuel pressure regulator and maybe a mass air unit depending on the computer. Now when you look at this then the Retrotek is not so bad. I like it a lot, even good for supercharging and it has a variable output so you can use a single line for the fuel pump (no return line).
Yes, you do have to buy more. A fuel pump, for starters. Maybe an electronic ignition distributor if you want timing control. And if you do buy their system, you're going to be in bed with them as long as you have it since (from their installation instructions): "Sensors are available only through RetroTek Speed"
Also, the price is still too high when you compare it to a factory multi-point setup. It's even too high when you compare it to building your own TBI (megasquirt). The only real advantage I can see from their sales propaganda is that it doesn't need a fuel return line. So what? In their installation instructions they state "this option must be used with a RetroTek Speed fuel pump only". Also, you're still going to have to deal with fuel starvation issues when you're low on gas. This means a surge tank, a custom tank, or always keeping the fuel tank at least 1/4 full. Compared to the complexity of installing a surge tank and the cost of a custom tank, running a second fuel line is nothing.
Here's a little bit about TBI in general: "It is little better than a carburettor [sic] from the viewpoint of economy and frequently inferior to a carburettor [sic] as respects air flow ability." - Modern Engine Tuning by A. Graham Bell
Looks to me like the Retrotek is bling aimed at those who are afraid of installing a complex EFI system and its only uniquely desirable "feature" is that it shares the same physical dimensions as a Holley double pumper.
< Message edited by jcomp -- 11/17/2007 8:21:23 AM >
You don't have to buy anything else. it comes with the computer. The price is cheep if you consider buying a EFI unit, intake, throttle body, injectors, rails, fuel pressure regulator and maybe a mass air unit depending on the computer. Now when you look at this then the Retrotek is not so bad. I like it a lot, even good for supercharging and it has a variable output so you can use a single line for the fuel pump (no return line).
Yes, you do have to buy more. A fuel pump, for starters. Maybe an electronic ignition distributor if you want timing control. And if you do buy their system, you're going to be in bed with them as long as you have it since (from their installation instructions): "Sensors are available only through RetroTek Speed"
Also, the price is still too high when you compare it to a factory multi-point setup. It's even too high when you compare it to building your own TBI (megasquirt). The only real advantage I can see from their sales propaganda is that it doesn't need a fuel return line. So what? In their installation instructions they state "this option must be used with a RetroTek Speed fuel pump only". Also, you're still going to have to deal with fuel starvation issues when you're low on gas. This means a surge tank, a custom tank, or always keeping the fuel tank at least 1/4 full. Compared to the complexity of installing a surge tank and the cost of a custom tank, running a second fuel line is nothing.
Here's a little bit about TBI in general: "It is little better than a carburettor [sic] from the viewpoint of economy and frequently inferior to a carburettor [sic] as respects air flow ability." - Modern Engine Tuning by A. Graham Bell
Looks to me like the Retrotek is bling aimed at those who are afraid of installing a complex EFI system and its only uniquely desirable "feature" is that it shares the same physical dimensions as a Holley double pumper.
I have his book on "4 Stroke Performance Tuning" but not the one you mentioned, I'll have to look for it. But that's exactly right.
TBI has an economy advantage over carb because you can more finely control fuel delivery, but not by much. The probelms with TBI for performance is that 1) you have injectors sticking out in the air stream that take up quite a bit more space than primary boosters in a carb, and the boosters in a carb are DESIGNED to have air flow through them, the injectors on TBI have to have the air go around, and the design is more constrained due to the need to house the parts of the injector itself. Also 2) TBI vs. Carb are both a wet flow manifold design, which means that the induction is still constrained by needing to maintain certain velocity and vacuum levels in the system to prevent the fuel from liquifying or falling out of suspension. However, the carb has the advantage of being an emulsifier, not just delivering fuel in a certain ratio like TBI does. That means the fuel from a carb is more readily vaporized and some of it is already vaporized when it's introduced into the air stream, which means it atomises to a more homogeneous mixture more readily for better combustion, and less energy has to be imparted in the induction tract and during the compression cycle to vaporize the fuel to a point where it can burn more effectively. That means that during compression more heat from compression can be imparted to the air/fuel mixture to allow for a more rapid burn with carb than with TBI, since some compression heat is used in a TBI setup to vaporize the TBI mixture and less is left over to heat it for better combustion when compared to a carb setup.
As far as EFI being a "steup up" from carb, it really depends. Most modern carb systems can easily match the performance of modern EFI systems, and in many cases exceed it, but EFI can allow for better control to operate emissions systems, such as catalytic converters. You'll get better mileage with EFI on average, and certainly better emissions(if you run emissions equipment) but as far as power, most well tuned carb systems will outperform most well tuned EFI systems. Unless you spend really good money to get a setup like FAST, or know what you're doing and go with a Megasquirt, you're not going to get a performance edge over carburetion. Carbs may not pass smog, but they are excellent for making power, and they do it more cheaply and more reliably than EFI. That's not to say that EFI is bad, because it's not, but people seem to have the idea that EFI is just so much better than carb, when it's not. Most carb'd cars that have poor performance, are that way because of mismatched parts and/or poor tuning.
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
This is a better option. The OP posted a speed density type system, which should be offered for a few hundred, like Holley's example. Heck, even $1k is too much for that kind of a system, IMO.
Speed density actually works quite well(if it's not a crappy system anyway). FAST XFI is speed density, and if you got a complete system from them with everything you need, you'd prolly be well into the $3-4,000 range to assemble a basic system, if not more. Speed density works well if it's a good system, but does require tuning for any mod you do. Even mass air systems have to be tuned, the MAF and injectors need to be calibrated to work together, and you still need to tell the computer where you want timing and afr's to be etc. There are a lot of different options these days for an aftermarket EFI system.
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
what no one has comented on is the boss efi may be a "tbi" but it does differ from other "tbi", if you look closely it runs at high pressure unlike any other tbi I have seen, other tbi's run at 14-18 psi and the boss efi runs at 45 or so psi so if I am correct the injector pulse would be much different and I would think the fuel would be much more atomized than your normal tbi system.......think of a garden hose and a nozzle.....to get the same amount of water at a given pressure means opening it up but with higher pressure its more of a fine mist. I have used the holley analog and DI TBI's and they were impressive but the DI was a POS, the commander 950 I hear is worlds better but the retrotek is only about 300-400 more and it comes with a wide band self learning ecu and it looks alot better than the holley and in some cases has no return line. I still to this day think tbi has advantages over MPI, why does a carb usually make more power? wet flow and the atomization and intercooling effect and its so true what they state on thier website, look at efi race motors they either put the injectors far away from the cylinders aqnd direct inj, inside the cyl runs even higher pressure and it makes the most power(my diesel DI runs 20,000 psi). I'm no expert but I would think the more the fuel is atomized before it reaches the chamber the better.
I wish sombody or some mag would step up to the plate and do a real world test on efi vs carb, tbi vs mpi without worring about the manufactures.
In my opinion the boss efi is a good idea, its something that bridges the gap between tbi and mpi and gives the carbed look that we like to keep......
c'mon retrotek........take a 408 stroker and bolt on a perfectly calibrated pro-systems carb and your perfectly calibrated boss efi and compare them from idle quality.power and fuel consuption........I DARE YOU!
I think the price should be more like 1400-1500................complete turn key system.
< Message edited by htwheelz67 -- 11/20/2007 8:31:04 PM >
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ORIGINAL: jcomp
Also, you're still going to have to deal with fuel starvation issues when you're low on gas. This means a surge tank, a custom tank, or always keeping the fuel tank at least 1/4 full. Compared to the complexity of installing a surge tank and the cost of a custom tank, running a second fuel line is nothing.
Do you know of people who have encountered this problem without a sump or surge tank? The reason I ask is because I've read the same stuff but never from somebody who actually experienced it. Mutang's Plus swap and RMP's kits just use a single inline pump. FWIW, my Jeep rockcrawler sees some pretty steep angles, lots of offcamber and bouncing around, and I've never experienced a fuel starvation problem. I've had the fuel pump out and there wasn't much of a sump, expecially if you add a flat bottom aftermarket skidplate which flattens out the bottom of the plastic tank.
I'm going to go without a surge tank and see how it goes. That said, I do have a '69 tank (20 gallons) instead of the original '65 (16 gallons).
i dont have it, but ive seen in on a 68, and the owner said it made his car run better, but im interested in there smart shift system anyone tried that?
Also, you're still going to have to deal with fuel starvation issues when you're low on gas. This means a surge tank, a custom tank, or always keeping the fuel tank at least 1/4 full. Compared to the complexity of installing a surge tank and the cost of a custom tank, running a second fuel line is nothing.
Do you know of people who have encountered this problem without a sump or surge tank? The reason I ask is because I've read the same stuff but never from somebody who actually experienced it. Mutang's Plus swap and RMP's kits just use a single inline pump. FWIW, my Jeep rockcrawler sees some pretty steep angles, lots of offcamber and bouncing around, and I've never experienced a fuel starvation problem. I've had the fuel pump out and there wasn't much of a sump, expecially if you add a flat bottom aftermarket skidplate which flattens out the bottom of the plastic tank.
I'm going to go without a surge tank and see how it goes. That said, I do have a '69 tank (20 gallons) instead of the original '65 (16 gallons).
Jeff
Actually, I have a friend who installed the Edelbrock EFI setup on his 70s SBC pickup and he mentioned that he had the problem.
Since you posted this question in my EFI thread I've been trying to remember the website where the guy had the issues and I think it was this one: http://home.dmv.com/~stauffer/EFI_Main.htm Unfortunately, it is no longer a valid page. Maybe Google has it cached, I haven't checked too closely.
The need for a fuel accumulator (surge tank, header tank, whatever) is mentioned in the Inject Your Horse articles, also in a book I have on swapping EFI Chevy motors (written by JTR), and many websites (whatever that's worth).
If you're not convinced and want some info from those with more direct experience, the best place I can think of to check would be on the pro-touring website. I'll be the first to admit that I rarely know what I'm talking about.
As far as your Jeep... I'm not sure what to say. Unless you are a maniac, you aren't rock crawling at high RPMs with the engine loaded down, so your fuel consumption is probably fairly low while you are off camber. The fuel return probably feeds directly back into the sump area of the tank, which will help keep the sump from going empty as quick.
Good luck in ever trying to get the magazines do a totally objective test on anything. ESPECIALLY when it comes to EFI vs carb, or one EFI system vs. another.
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
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Anyone tried the Retrotek EFI? - 
Maybe Google has it cached, I haven't checked too closely. 