I am thinking about installing EFI on my 70 fastback (Long way to go though). I found the retrotek EFI system and was wondering if anyone had tried this system. It loos like a carburetor and bolts onto a regular carburetor type intake manifold. Her is the manufacturer's website.

http://www.retrotekspeed.com/products/bossefi/bossefi-system/bossefi-single-quad.html

Kinda pricy but looks very cool.

I like the Nostalgia EFI 6-Pack!

its a little high on price but if it workshow they claim its defenetly worth it!...i may have to start saving up some cash for one of there kits;)

I have been looking at them as well. But, I can hear it now, "You want to spend what, on what???".

Just go for it, and pust a FAST XFI setup on it. :D

That's a lot of money for throttle body injection.

ORIGINAL: 67mustang302

Just go for it, and pust a FAST XFI setup on it. :D


You don't have to buy anything else. it comes with the computer. The price is cheep if you consider buying a EFI unit, intake, throttle body, injectors, rails, fuelpressure regulator and maybe a mass air unit depending on the computer. Now when you look at this then the Retrotek is not so bad. I like it a lot, even good for supercharging and it has a variable output so you can use a single line for the fuel pump (no return line).

I'm waiting for the cast version to save $200...

If it's throttle body efi though, you might as well just stay carbed

Its self tuning and its efi its a step up from a carb but not quite the muilt port injection.I havent used that but there push button shifter i put on a 32 ford kit car my uncle bought it worked great easy to put on and set up.

ORIGINAL: 67mustang302

If it's throttle body efi though, you might as well just stay carbed

Have you actually read all their product material or are you just generalizing?

ORIGINAL: LCC

You don't have to buy anything else. it comes with the computer. The price is cheep if you consider buying a EFI unit, intake, throttle body, injectors, rails, fuel pressure regulator and maybe a mass air unit depending on the computer. Now when you look at this then the Retrotek is not so bad. I like it a lot, even good for supercharging and it has a variable output so you can use a single line for the fuel pump (no return line).


Yes, you do have to buy more. A fuel pump, for starters. Maybe an electronic ignition distributor if you want timing control. And if you do buy their system, you're going to be in bed with them as long as you have it since (from their installation instructions): "Sensors are available only through RetroTek Speed"

Also, the price is still too high when you compare it to a factory multi-point setup. It's even too high when you compare it to building your own TBI (megasquirt). The only real advantage I can see from their sales propaganda is that it doesn't need a fuel return line. So what? In their installation instructions they state "this option must be used with a
RetroTek Speed fuel pump only". Also, you're still going to have to deal with fuel starvation issues when you're low on gas. This means a surge tank, a custom tank, or always keeping the fuel tank at least 1/4 full. Compared to the complexity of installing a surge tank and the cost of a custom tank, running a second fuel line is nothing.

Here's a little bit about TBI in general: "It is little better than a carburettor [sic] from the viewpoint of economy and frequently inferior to a carburettor [sic] as respects air flow ability." - Modern Engine Tuning by A. Graham Bell

Looks to me like the Retrotek is bling aimed at those who are afraid of installing a complex EFI system and its only uniquely desirable "feature" is that it shares the same physical dimensions as a Holley double pumper.

ORIGINAL: jcomp

ORIGINAL: LCC

You don't have to buy anything else. it comes with the computer. The price is cheep if you consider buying a EFI unit, intake, throttle body, injectors, rails, fuel pressure regulator and maybe a mass air unit depending on the computer. Now when you look at this then the Retrotek is not so bad. I like it a lot, even good for supercharging and it has a variable output so you can use a single line for the fuel pump (no return line).


Yes, you do have to buy more. A fuel pump, for starters. Maybe an electronic ignition distributor if you want timing control. And if you do buy their system, you're going to be in bed with them as long as you have it since (from their installation instructions): "Sensors are available only through RetroTek Speed"

Also, the price is still too high when you compare it to a factory multi-point setup. It's even too high when you compare it to building your own TBI (megasquirt). The only real advantage I can see from their sales propaganda is that it doesn't need a fuel return line. So what? In their installation instructions they state "this option must be used with a
RetroTek Speed fuel pump only". Also, you're still going to have to deal with fuel starvation issues when you're low on gas. This means a surge tank, a custom tank, or always keeping the fuel tank at least 1/4 full. Compared to the complexity of installing a surge tank and the cost of a custom tank, running a second fuel line is nothing.

Here's a little bit about TBI in general: "It is little better than a carburettor [sic] from the viewpoint of economy and frequently inferior to a carburettor [sic] as respects air flow ability." - Modern Engine Tuning by A. Graham Bell

Looks to me like the Retrotek is bling aimed at those who are afraid of installing a complex EFI system and its only uniquely desirable "feature" is that it shares the same physical dimensions as a Holley double pumper.


I have his book on "4 Stroke Performance Tuning" but not the one you mentioned, I'll have to look for it. But that's exactly right.

TBI has an economy advantage over carb because you can more finely control fuel delivery, but not by much. The probelms with TBI for performance is that 1) you have injectors sticking out in the air stream that take up quite a bit more space than primary boosters in a carb, and the boosters in a carb are DESIGNED to have air flow through them, the injectors on TBI have to have the air go around, and the design is more constrained due to the need to house the parts of the injector itself. Also 2) TBI vs. Carbare both a wet flow manifold design, which means that the induction is still constrained by needing to maintain certain velocity and vacuum levels in the system to prevent the fuel from liquifying or falling out of suspension. However, the carb has the advantage of being an emulsifier, not just delivering fuel in a certain ratio like TBI does. That means the fuel from a carb is more readily vaporized and some of it is already vaporized when it's introduced into the air stream, which means it atomises to a more homogeneous mixture more readily for better combustion, and less energy has to be imparted in the induction tract and during the compression cycle to vaporize the fuel to a point where it can burn more effectively. That means that during compressionmore heat from compression can be imparted to the air/fuel mixture to allow for a more rapid burn with carb than with TBI, since some compression heat is used in a TBI setup to vaporize the TBI mixture and less is left over to heat it for better combustion when compared to a carb setup.

As far as EFI being a "steup up" from carb, it really depends. Most modern carb systems can easily match the performance of modern EFI systems, and in many cases exceed it, but EFI can allow for better control to operate emissions systems, such as catalytic converters. You'll get better mileage with EFI on average, and certainly better emissions(if you run emissions equipment)but as far as power, most well tuned carb systems will outperform most well tuned EFI systems. Unless you spend really good money to get a setup like FAST, or know what you're doing and go with a Megasquirt, you're not going to get a performance edge over carburetion. Carbs may not pass smog, but they are excellent for making power, and they do it morecheaply and morereliably than EFI. That's not to say that EFI is bad, because it's not, but people seem to have the idea that EFI is just so much better than carb, when it's not. Most carb'd cars that have poor performance, are that way because of mismatched parts and/or poor tuning.

This (http://www.massfloefi.com/) is a better option. The OP posted a speed density type system, which should be offered for a few hundred, like Holley's (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=HLY%2D502%2D20S&N =700+4294925239+4294839074+4294853151+400178+115&a utoview=sku) example. Heck, even $1k is too much for that kind of a system, IMO.

Speed density actually works quite well(if it's not a crappy system anyway). FAST XFI is speed density, and if you got a complete system from them with everything you need, you'd prolly be well into the $3-4,000 range to assemble a basic system, if not more. Speed density works well if it's a good system, but does require tuning for any mod you do. Even mass air systems have to be tuned, the MAF and injectors need to be calibrated to work together, and you still need to tell the computer where you want timing and afr's to be etc. There are a lot of different options these days for an aftermarket EFI system.

what no one has comented on is the boss efi may be a "tbi" but it does differ from other "tbi", if you look closely it runs at high pressure unlike any other tbi I have seen, other tbi's run at 14-18 psi and the boss efi runs at 45 or so psi so if I am correct the injector pulse would be much different and I would think the fuel would be much more atomized than your normal tbi system.......think of a garden hose and a nozzle.....to get the same amount of water at a given pressure means opening it up but with higher pressure its more of a fine mist. I have used the holley analog and DI TBI's and they were impressive but the DI was a POS, the commander 950 I hear is worlds better but the retrotek is only about 300-400 more and it comes with a wide band self learning ecu and it looks alot better than the holley and in some cases has no return line. I still to this day think tbi has advantages over MPI, why does a carb usually make more power? wet flow and the atomization and intercooling effect and its so true what they state on thier website, look at efi race motors they either put the injectors far away from the cylinders aqnd direct inj, inside the cyl runs even higher pressure and it makes the most power(my diesel DI runs 20,000 psi). I'm no expert but I would think the more the fuel is atomized before it reaches the chamber the better.

I wish sombody or some mag would step up to the plate and do a real world test on efi vs carb, tbi vs mpi without worring about the manufactures.

In my opinion the boss efi is a good idea, its something that bridges the gap between tbi and mpi and gives the carbed look that we like to keep......

c'mon retrotek........take a 408 stroker and bolt on a perfectly calibrated pro-systems carb and your perfectly calibrated boss efi and compare them from idle quality.power and fuel consuption........I DARE YOU!

I think the price should be more like 1400-1500................complete turn key system.

ORIGINAL: jcomp

Also, you're still going to have to deal with fuel starvation issues when you're low on gas. This means a surge tank, a custom tank, or always keeping the fuel tank at least 1/4 full. Compared to the complexity of installing a surge tank and the cost of a custom tank, running a second fuel line is nothing.


Do you know of people who have encountered this problem without a sump or surge tank? The reason I ask is because I've read the same stuff but never from somebody who actually experienced it. Mutang's Plus swap and RMP's kits just use a single inline pump. FWIW, my Jeep rockcrawler sees some pretty steep angles, lots of offcamber and bouncing around, and I've never experienced a fuel starvation problem. I've had the fuel pump out and there wasn't much of a sump, expecially if you add a flat bottom aftermarket skidplate which flattens out the bottom of the plastic tank.

I'm going to go without a surge tank and see how it goes. That said, I do have a '69 tank (20 gallons) instead of the original '65 (16 gallons).

Jeff

i dont have it, but ive seen in on a 68, and the owner said it made his car run better, but im interested in there smart shift system anyone tried that?

ORIGINAL: gothand

ORIGINAL: jcomp

Also, you're still going to have to deal with fuel starvation issues when you're low on gas. This means a surge tank, a custom tank, or always keeping the fuel tank at least 1/4 full. Compared to the complexity of installing a surge tank and the cost of a custom tank, running a second fuel line is nothing.


Do you know of people who have encountered this problem without a sump or surge tank? The reason I ask is because I've read the same stuff but never from somebody who actually experienced it. Mutang's Plus swap and RMP's kits just use a single inline pump. FWIW, my Jeep rockcrawler sees some pretty steep angles, lots of offcamber and bouncing around, and I've never experienced a fuel starvation problem. I've had the fuel pump out and there wasn't much of a sump, expecially if you add a flat bottom aftermarket skidplate which flattens out the bottom of the plastic tank.

I'm going to go without a surge tank and see how it goes. That said, I do have a '69 tank (20 gallons) instead of the original '65 (16 gallons).

Jeff


Actually, I have a friend who installed the Edelbrock EFI setup on his 70s SBC pickup and he mentioned that he had the problem.

Since you posted this question in my EFI thread I've been trying to remember the website where the guy had the issues and I think it was this one: http://home.dmv.com/~stauffer/EFI_Main.htm
Unfortunately, it is no longer a valid page. :eek: Maybe Google has it cached, I haven't checked too closely.

The need for a fuel accumulator (surge tank, header tank, whatever) is mentioned in the Inject Your Horse articles, also in a book I have on swapping EFI Chevy motors (written by JTR), and many websites (whatever that's worth).

If you're not convinced and want some info from those with more direct experience, the best place I can think of to check would be on the pro-touring website. I'll be the first to admit that I rarely know what I'm talking about. :D

As far as your Jeep... I'm not sure what to say. Unless you are a maniac, you aren't rock crawling at high RPMs with the engine loaded down, so your fuel consumption is probably fairly low while you are off camber. The fuel return probably feeds directly back into the sump area of the tank, which will help keep the sump from going empty as quick.

Good luck in ever trying to get the magazines do a totally objective test on anything. ESPECIALLY when it comes to EFI vs carb, or one EFI system vs. another.

IMHO it is a lot of $$ to get improved drivability. I would not remove one to put on a carb setup. EFIis 'superior' but at too high a cost (to me).

A MAF and a tuneable ECU are critical - because i doubt [looking around] that anyone putting this on is at stock HP/flow demands. Speed/density systems require a laptop/mapping capability to find a 'tune' that optimizes for engine performance.

A good carb, set up properly, will allow the $$ to be spent on more worthwhile items (appearence or HP).

ORIGINAL: htwheelz67

what no one has comented on is the boss efi may be a "tbi" but it does differ from other "tbi", if you look closely it runs at high pressure unlike any other tbi I have seen, other tbi's run at 14-18 psi and the boss efi runs at 45 or so psi so if I am correct the injector pulse would be much different and I would think the fuel would be much more atomized than your normal tbi system.......think of a garden hose and a nozzle.....to get the same amount of water at a given pressure means opening it up but with higher pressure its more of a fine mist. I have used the holley analog and DI TBI's and they were impressive but the DI was a POS, the commander 950 I hear is worlds better but the retrotek is only about 300-400 more and it comes with a wide band self learning ecu and it looks alot better than the holley and in some cases has no return line. I still to this day think tbi has advantages over MPI, why does a carb usually make more power? wet flow and the atomization and intercooling effect and its so true what they state on thier website, look at efi race motors they either put the injectors far away from the cylinders aqnd direct inj, inside the cyl runs even higher pressure and it makes the most power(my diesel DI runs 20,000 psi). I'm no expert but I would think the more the fuel is atomized before it reaches the chamber the better.

I wish sombody or some mag would step up to the plate and do a real world test on efi vs carb, tbi vs mpi without worring about the manufactures.

In my opinion the boss efi is a good idea, its something that bridges the gap between tbi and mpi and gives the carbed look that we like to keep......

c'mon retrotek........take a 408 stroker and bolt on a perfectly calibrated pro-systems carb and your perfectly calibrated boss efi and compare them from idle quality.power and fuel consuption........I DARE YOU!

I think the price should be more like 1400-1500................complete turn key system.




You raise some good points. However, I think there is more to a street engine than how much power it makes at WOT. What's best for racing dynos may not be best for racing around the Taco Bell drivethrough. :D

IMO EFI is a driveability upgrade. And from what I've seen you can do much better for the money than this retrotek setup. For a race engine I would probably go with a carburetor. For a street engine I am going with a factory mass-air multi-point setup. And for what the retrotek system costs I could have bought two entire donor cars for an EFI swap.

OK. Since I started this mess, let me tell you what I am after and what appealed to me about the retrotec system. I am building a daily driver that I have a 351W for.My intent is sticking with that engine for now. I would like EFI for drivability mainly and economy and emissions as a secondary concern. After all the $2k price would take a while to recoup with the slight gas mileage increase. What appealed to me about the the Retrotek system was easy installation, classic carburetor looks, and no clearance problems. None of which is an absolute necessity. I do have a carb for it and I will probably start there anyway.

As for the stock ford system, correct me if I'm wrong, but a stock EFI won't fit under the standard export brace and monte carlo bar which would require the high dollar types or custom making a set. Would also require a lower manifold to adapt to the 351W. Considering this, I would probably be better off buying a complete 5.0L EFI engine from a salvage yard and just putting it in. This is also an option I am considering.

What I originally asked was if anyone had used the Retrotek system, not if TBI is better or worse than carb or MPI, or... I have already considered the options and just wanted to know if anyone had experience with this specific system.

Carburetors are superior to EFI in terms of power production, reliability and cost, generally speaking....EFI wins out on mileage, emissions and has a slight edge in drivability sometimes. But ultimately itcomes down to each individual build, system and tune.THAT being said...if you want low cost drivability and economy, you can get that with a carburetor. If you go EFI that's fine too, but don't go to EFI because you think it's necessary to get good drivability or economy, if you do that then you're weasting your money.

Carburetors have a reputation for low economy and drivability because of retards that don't use and tunethem properly. Drivability with carbs is highly dependant upon the engine build and carburetor selection(which is true of EFI as well), and virtually ALL drivability problems with carb'd cars can be traced to either the incorrect carburetor, mismatched engine combination, or poor tuning. A PROPERLY selected carb with a PROPERLY selected combination of parts that is PROPERLY tuned will have excellent drivability and good economy. My carb'd 302 puts out FAR more power than either of my parents EFI cars, and it starts faster, especially in cold weather, has better throttle response, better drivability, and slightly less mileage(they get upper 20's-low 30's mpg on the highweay and I get low-mid 20's, not bad for having 2x the cylinders and 3x the power with no overdrive).

It all comes down to build, a properly built carb'd setup will run well, as will a properly built EFI setup. A poorly built carb'd setup will drive like crap, but so too will a poorly built EFI setup. The reason "EFI has better drivability" is because most people have the wrong parts slapped together with the wrong carb, so it runs like crap, and EFI is more forgiving. Carbs are much less forgiving when it comes to things like that, but also if you take the same well built engine and run it with EFI or with a carb, it should run just as well with either, only the carb will have better power and the EFI will have better mileage(in most cases, and also not by much of a difference).

If you think it's necessary to go with EFI for drivability, it's not, you just need a well thought out carburetor setup, rather than a hobbled together build that's gonna run like crap. If you want to go with EFI though, my personal choice for a basic street system with be Edelbrocks Pro Flo EFI setup. It's around $2,600 I think, but has EVERYTHING in it, including a tuning module so you don't need a laptop. It's a multi-point EFI setup, that uses a 4bbl throttle body and port injection, so it has a carb look to it(just without the float bowls) and it comes from a known reliable manufacturer that has excellent customer service/support. It's not the highest performance EFI system out there and the tuning is more limited than some others, but it's a good speed density system that you can easily tune with their module, and it will work with a very wide range of engine combinations. Plus it comes from a company that you know is not likely to go out of business in your lifetime, so you can always get parts and support for it.

I think that system is one of the best stand-alone bangs for the buck out there when you factor in performance, tuning, support, power, reliablity and quality etc. You could also try a Megasquirt setup if you don't mind building and tuning your own EFI system, but there's a lot of brainwork involved in that one, it's sure as hell NOT plug n play. Just stuff to consider.

After looking at all the responses it appears that;
a) most did not read all the website material or
b) those who did do not appreciate or understand it
So stick with your carbs man, until the end.
Real time tuning with a wideband O2 sensor for any condition is worse than one time tuning by reading your spark plugs at one condition? Pull out the tarot cards while you are at it.

I never said that real-time tuning is bad. And who says you can't use a wideband to tune a carb? You get aget carb that's reasonably good at adjusting for atmospheric variations, and whatever minor changes in afr you may encounter can be easily offset by the atomisation and vaporization advantages of a carburetor. Plus the Joule-Thompson effect, which actually causes the air/fuel charge to increase in density as it heads towards the cylinder, something that port EFI can not do, but TBI EFI and carbs can.Plus the carb is far cheaper and much more reliable. As soon as you get a sensor going bad in an EFI car, or any problem in wiring etc that changes resistance even slightly, and your fuel metering is off. Many EFI cars drive around with fuel metering that's off slightly and they never know it.

I'm not saying EFI sucks, it works quite well. But what I am saying is that many people think that carbs suck when compared to EFI which is simply not true. Each has their own advantages and disadvantages. Look at the racing world, some of the most potent race cars in terms of mean cylinder pressures, are carbureted. And even the most exotic of the EFI cars, Formula 1, for all the hundreds of millions of dollarseach teamspends every year on R&D and competition, and as exotic as their fuel injection systems are with highly advanced real time monitering that FAR exceeds any system on any street vehicle, they produce mean cylinder pressures that are only similar, or slightly less that other much less exotic carbureted cars, like Nextel Cup and NHRA Pro Stock.

No one system is better than the other overall. Each is better than the other at certain things, but in the end, the advantages and disadvantages of each make the systems comparable to one another. Ultimately it comes down to the guy setting it up, if you have an EFI system vs. a carb system, and both are set up equally as well, they're both going to perform similarly, though each will have an advantage over the other in certain areas. It comes down to what you want out of the system. But ultimately, it's not necessary to convert to EFI to gain drivability and economy with good performance, a carburetor can do that too.

Personally, I like carbs for n/a applications, because I just don't see the point in paying 5-10x as much for EFI, to have the same drivability, but with slightly less power and slightly more mileage, unless you're really that concerned about a few extra mpg. Especially when carburetors have much less to go wrong with them.However, it's just not neccessary to convert to EFI to gain drivability and still retain power. Don't count out older designs, pushrods and carburetors still have a lot of fight left in them, despite what many people think about modern overhead cam and EFI technology.