With the Paxton/Vortech you should be able to see a more peakier HP rating. Since you can get the Vortech with an Air-to-Water Aftercooler (which I personally like better than Air-to-Air intercoolers) you will be able to run a more aggressive tune than the Whipple. The Whipple most likely will not be intercooled so you will be limited to lower boost levels due to higher discharge temperatures, which means lower HP numbers. However since the Whipple uses a twin screw compressor, the maximum boost will come on a lot quicker. This means you will see more boost throughout your whole rpm band. Since Paxton/Vortech are centrifugal type compressors, the boost will have to build up with RPM speed. So with this said the Whipple will take off a lot quicker, but the Paxton/Vortech will catch up and maybe pass you.
Now most s/c'ers these days are designed around stock vehicles. So when you do add headers, heads, cams, etc....this can cause a lean condition so additional tuning will be required, but it will compliment the performance.
With the Paxton/Vortech you should be able to see a more peakier HP rating. Since you can get the Vortech with an Air-to-Water Aftercooler (which I personally like better than Air-to-Air intercoolers) you will be able to run a more aggressive tune than the Whipple. The Whipple most likely will not be intercooled so you will be limited to lower boost levels due to higher discharge temperatures, which means lower HP numbers. However since the Whipple uses a twin screw compressor, the maximum boost will come on a lot quicker. This means you will see more boost throughout your whole rpm band. Since Paxton/Vortech are centrifugal type compressors, the boost will have to build up with RPM speed. So with this said the Whipple will take off a lot quicker, but the Paxton/Vortech will catch up and maybe pass you.
Now most s/c'ers these days are designed around stock vehicles. So when you do add headers, heads, cams, etc....this can cause a lean condition so additional tuning will be required, but it will compliment the performance.
Unless Vortec has changed their product, their 'aftercooler' is a box that you load up with ice cubes. The air passes through it, and the ice cools the charge. -Until the ice melts. A standard air-to-air intercooler is a lot more efficient. I would never bother with Vortec's aftercooler. I would put an aftermarket air-to air intercooler on it. Realize a cooler air charge is safer for your motor, with less chance of detonation. The new Whipple blowers have a water to air heat exchanger/intercooler system, and it does a decent job. One problem of water to air intercooler is that they get heat soaked and become less efficient once they heat up. Air to air intercoolers are the most efficient under prolonged boost, especially in the heat of the summer. The twin screw blower will have a much fatter 'powerband' than the centrifugal blowers, and hardly looses out in top end power. As a matter of fact, a centrifugal blower's hp curve surpasses a twin screw's hp curve around 5200 rpms on stock cams, + or -. For street driving, the screw is the way to go. -Not even close.
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Joined: 2/16/2005 From: bay area Status: offline
now you guys are getting me confused.. hahaha.. what to do what to do.. but for price I think just getting a vor/pax sc for 3500 that gives you 120hp is great.. and later go for the intercooler..unless any of you know where you can get a whipple for 3500-4K
I contacted Whipple directly a few days ago. Their supercharger system WILL be intercooled and that is why the price is so high. When you price out a Vortech/Paxton or Procharger w/ intercooler setup, the price is not that much different. Add to that, the Whipple setup is COMPLETE and requires NO DRILLING OR MODIFICATIONS and the extra couple hundred dollars is worth it to me. And a DIY job of 6 to 10 hours isn't too atrocious. Here's an email response they sent me:
"We are about to release our new bolt-on supercharger system for the '05 Mustang. We do not have a set release date, but we are hoping to have it ready to go within the next couple of months. You will be able to buy directly from us or an authorized FORD Racing dealer. We do not have a set price at this time, but our anticipated retail price is around $5495.00 for the completeintercooled set-up.
I will keep your e-mail address and notify you as soon as we are ready to take orders.
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Joined: 2/16/2005 From: bay area Status: offline
No drilling? so this is something a clutz like me can do. A complete kit.. that includes air intake and (gears).. 5499 is soo much though ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh IS there anyone here with the hook up!!?? group discount? something..haha
Check the link that was posted and check around their site. I researched it a little bit and their kits give you everything you need. Belts, hoses, hi-flow intake & filter, gaskets, etc. I think I even remember reading that they give you new injectors.
Posts: 1368
Joined: 2/16/2005 From: bay area Status: offline
4.10 .. I dont think they will give those. If its a kit I can do myseld then all I have to pay for is the $$ for dyno and tune. Once I hit the 1000 mark I will take it in for a plain dyno and see what stock is. Then try it with modes here and there. I'm afraid to dyno tone too early..haha.. was at a car show and sheen things blow up on dynos.. -trust no one
Unless Vortec has changed their product, their 'aftercooler' is a box that you load up with ice cubes. The air passes through it, and the ice cools the charge. -Until the ice melts. A standard air-to-air intercooler is a lot more efficient. I would never bother with Vortec's aftercooler. I would put an aftermarket air-to air intercooler on it. Realize a cooler air charge is safer for your motor, with less chance of detonation. The new Whipple blowers have a water to air heat exchanger/intercooler system, and it does a decent job. One problem of water to air intercooler is that they get heat soaked and become less efficient once they heat up. Air to air intercoolers are the most efficient under prolonged boost, especially in the heat of the summer. The twin screw blower will have a much fatter 'powerband' than the centrifugal blowers, and hardly looses out in top end power. As a matter of fact, a centrifugal blower's hp curve surpasses a twin screw's hp curve around 5200 rpms on stock cams, + or -. For street driving, the screw is the way to go. -Not even close.
Vortech hasn’t changed their Aftercooler product, but there seems to be a big misconception on the true benefits of an air-to-water Aftercooler opposed to the air-to-air Intercooler.
It’s very true that you can load the Aftercooler with ice cubes and the benefits are enhanced. But in real life driving conditions you do not need to add ice to see that an Aftercooler has better thermal performance and less pressure loss than air-to-air Intercoolers. And there is no support to say air-to-air Intercooler are more efficient. Since air-to-air Intercoolers require a lot of piping the overall pressure loss is greater, which makes the systems not as efficient. Aftercooler usually are placed closer to the throttle body, which makes the airflow more direct thus eliminating all the ducting that will lead to pressure loss. Test has proved that air-to-water has almost a 1/3rd greater flowrate capacity over air-to-air, which proves that Aftercooler efficiency are greater.
The other misconception is the whole, “heat soak” theory with air-to-water Aftercoolers and how they become less efficient than air-to-air Intercoolers once they heat up. Since air-to-water Aftercoolers have several pounds of liquid that is being re-circulated by a pump, it has been proven that the stability in temperature remains virtually unchanged. Also what is failed to be mention is that all air-to-air Intercoolers only work with forward vehicle motion. So when your vehicle is not in motion the air-to-air Intercoolers will not be effective at all. In the heads up testing using real road life conditions the T/B temperatures with air-to-water Aftercoolers were a lot cooler, which means air-to-water Aftercoolers can yield greater horse power numbers and that the thermal performance is better.
Air-to-Air - 128 Degrees at 5200rpm Air to-Water - 110 Degree s at 5000rpm
The bottom line is that air-to-water Aftercoolers produces less pressure loss…are more efficient…and have better thermal performance, which makes the advantages of Aftercoolers clear. Air-to-water Aftercoolers provide the greatest potential for power increase which air-to-air Intercoolers cannot match and this is proven. =)
ORIGINAL: ForceInduction 4.10 .. I dont think they will give those. If its a kit I can do myseld then all I have to pay for is the $$ for dyno and tune. Once I hit the 1000 mark I will take it in for a plain dyno and see what stock is. Then try it with modes here and there. I'm afraid to dyno tone too early..haha.. was at a car show and sheen things blow up on dynos.. -trust no one
COMMENT BY: Higgie I thought with the added, rear wheel hp, we could forgo the gears. With the 175 extra rwhp, the car will be extremely fast. The 4.10's would make it all that much harder to launch the car without blowing away the rear tires. S/C , factory gears, should be a great combination of quick, and topend. I don't want a car that is rocket quick, but runs to high of engine rpm for cruising at 75mph.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Birdieman4
Unless Vortec has changed their product, their 'aftercooler' is a box that you load up with ice cubes. The air passes through it, and the ice cools the charge. -Until the ice melts. A standard air-to-air intercooler is a lot more efficient. I would never bother with Vortec's aftercooler. I would put an aftermarket air-to air intercooler on it. Realize a cooler air charge is safer for your motor, with less chance of detonation. The new Whipple blowers have a water to air heat exchanger/intercooler system, and it does a decent job. One problem of water to air intercooler is that they get heat soaked and become less efficient once they heat up. Air to air intercoolers are the most efficient under prolonged boost, especially in the heat of the summer. The twin screw blower will have a much fatter 'powerband' than the centrifugal blowers, and hardly looses out in top end power. As a matter of fact, a centrifugal blower's hp curve surpasses a twin screw's hp curve around 5200 rpms on stock cams, + or -. For street driving, the screw is the way to go. -Not even close.
Vortech hasn’t changed their Aftercooler product, but there seems to be a big misconception on the true benefits of an air-to-water Aftercooler opposed to the air-to-air Intercooler.
It’s very true that you can load the Aftercooler with ice cubes and the benefits are enhanced. But in real life driving conditions you do not need to add ice to see that an Aftercooler has better thermal performance and less pressure loss than air-to-air Intercoolers. And there is no support to say air-to-air Intercooler are more efficient. Since air-to-air Intercoolers require a lot of piping the overall pressure loss is greater, which makes the systems not as efficient. Aftercooler usually are placed closer to the throttle body, which makes the airflow more direct thus eliminating all the ducting that will lead to pressure loss. Test has proved that air-to-water has almost a 1/3rd greater flowrate capacity over air-to-air, which proves that Aftercooler efficiency are greater.
The other misconception is the whole, “heat soak” theory with air-to-water Aftercoolers and how they become less efficient than air-to-air Intercoolers once they heat up. Since air-to-water Aftercoolers have several pounds of liquid that is being re-circulated by a pump, it has been proven that the stability in temperature remains virtually unchanged. Also what is failed to be mention is that all air-to-air Intercoolers only work with forward vehicle motion. So when your vehicle is not in motion the air-to-air Intercoolers will not be effective at all. In the heads up testing using real road life conditions the T/B temperatures with air-to-water Aftercoolers were a lot cooler, which means air-to-water Aftercoolers can yield greater horse power numbers and that the thermal performance is better.
Air-to-Air - 128 Degrees at 5200rpm Air to-Water - 110 Degree s at 5000rpm
The bottom line is that air-to-water Aftercoolers produces less pressure loss…are more efficient…and have better thermal performance, which makes the advantages of Aftercoolers clear. Air-to-water Aftercoolers provide the greatest potential for power increase which air-to-air Intercoolers cannot match and this is proven. =)
COMMENT BY: Higgie
With all these coments, it seems that the twin screw, with dedicated water cooling system, has the best of all features. There is no blower with less distance to the engine intake than a twin screw. As I understand it, the boost is built in the blower itself, smallest volume of all, roots blowers have to build in the whole intake path, and as noted here, centrificul's, have a lot of piping to get from the blower, through the intercooler, and into the throttlebody.
Sure the whipple costs more, but it still seems to have all the features mentioned by several of the posts.
SO I have to save a little longer, not to many serious horse power upgrades, that you don't get what you pay for.
On a slightly different power adder note:
If you realy want that extra 150 rwhp., and you only need it a fewe econds here and there. You have to consider a nitrous system. I don't know how the 4.6L 3V, will handle it. But it is a lot less money than a SC. Of course, talk about trouble, if it isn't tuned right. We always call it "blow torch in a bottle", run lean, and we're talking burnt holes in pistons. 4 sure.
< Message edited by Higgie -- 3/13/2005 11:10:45 AM >
It’s very true that you can load the Aftercooler with ice cubes and the benefits are enhanced. But in real life driving conditions you do not need to add ice to see that an Aftercooler has better thermal performance and less pressure loss than air-to-air Intercoolers. And there is no support to say air-to-air Intercooler are more efficient. Since air-to-air Intercoolers require a lot of piping the overall pressure loss is greater, which makes the systems not as efficient. Aftercooler usually are placed closer to the throttle body, which makes the airflow more direct thus eliminating all the ducting that will lead to pressure loss. Test has proved that air-to-water has almost a 1/3rd greater flowrate capacity over air-to-air, which proves that Aftercooler efficiency are greater.
A few points. Firstoff, you can't confuse an 'aftercooler' with an air to water intercooler. Vortec's aftercooler provides some benefit, as long as your ice doesn't melt. In the heat of the summer, it melts so fast it isn't even practical. It works great in the cooler months, but in the cooler months your air charge is 'already cool'. An aftercooler does not have better thermal than an air to air intercooler. When I was comparing intercoolers, I was talking about water to air heat exchanger systems used in positive displacment blowers, vs the air to air intercoolers that centrifugal blowers use. The aftercooler is a waste of time. Here is a point I think you are missing. On a positive displacment blower, like a Whipple twin screw, the amount of boost you run and how long you're running it DIRECTLY effects the air charge. Boost creates heat, and that's how these units get heat soaked. -And heat soaking is not a misconception, as you stated. With a centrifugal blower like a Vortec, your boost level won't dictate your air charge, ever. My point is that if you go out and run a twin screw car hard in the heat of the summer, initially it will perform well as the H2o temp stays low. -But, with some extended boost, the blower builds heat, and the water to air heat exchanger (intercooler) that the blower sits on will get very hot, thus heating the coolant needed to cool the charge. If you have an intercooler temp guage, you can literally watch it go up. Once the water temp reached 130*, you'll feel a performance loss difference, and once it reaches 140*+, power loss becomes very noticable. Also,bthe ambient outside temp limits your minimum H20 temp. In 90* summer heat, a water temp of 110* isn't possible, except for the first 5 minutes it is driven. Flow rate capacity is meaningless when you got a hot twin screw blower sitting on a heat exchanger that can't hardly cool the charge until the blower cools down a bit. Yes, your point about the water to air cars cooling themselves at idle is dead on, but in the summer, as I said, your water temp is limited to the amient ait temp outside. This is exactly why air to air intercoolers are more efficient than water to ait units. You can go take a procharged stang with an air to air intercooler out and boost it all day, and the air charge will hardly be affected. If you take a Whipple equiped stang and boost it all day, it will have a decent amount of performance loss once the blower gets hot with some boost.
quote:
Since air-to-water Aftercoolers have several pounds of liquid that is being re-circulated by a pump, it has been proven that the stability in temperature remains virtually unchanged.
This statement couldn't be further from the truth. The stability in temp. IS DIRECTLY RELATED to the amount of boost you are running and the outside temp. The more boost you run for extended periods, the more the water heats up, and the warmer the air charge. Just making a dyno run with my twin screw S281E saleen built enough heat for me to have to let the car idle for 20 minutes to get the temp down far enough to make another dyno run.
How does this relate to real world driving, or roadrace play?? Meaning, will the twinscrew limit me on the higway, or at the roadrace course (as in, prolonged driving time).
Please note, I realize higway engine rpm should be low while I travel, like 70mph. I also have never roadraced, it's a new interest for me. Just driving my 05 GT, after having my main vehicle be a truck for the last 15 years, has been a hoot.
< Message edited by Higgie -- 3/13/2005 12:35:30 PM >
How does this relate to real world driving, or roadrace play?? Meaning, will the twinscrew limit me on the higway, or at the roadrace course (as in, prolonged driving time).
Please note, I realize higway engine rpm should be low while I travel, like 70mph. I also have never roadraced, it's a new interest for me. Just driving my 05 GT, after having my main vehicle be a truck for the last 15 years, has been a hoot.
When on the highway, you will be maintainting a constant speed, with no boost. The only time you are 'penalized' is when you are making some boost for some extended period of time. At, say, 70 mph on the freeway, you won't be making any boost, unless you decide to play 'grad prix'. As far as road racing goes, after you make a run you will want to let your car cool down, specificly the blower. If you touch the casing of a twin screw blower after 30 min of streetdriving under no boost, it will be warm. If you touch the casing of a twin screw blower after 30 mins of boosted driving, it will be red hot. They need more cooling time, while a procharged car with an intercooler need less. It is still worth doing the screw, regardless.
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Joined: 2/15/2005 From: San Diego, CA Status: offline
I have been in contact with Whipple and this was the last e-mail I received from them, which was quite informative:
"Greg,
The factory engine can take 450rwhp when it's designed properly. Were getting between 425-450rwhp at this point with 8lbs of boost. This is not the max on the engine, but what we've worked with for reliability of the engine. We will not ship out a system unless we feel confident in it's ability to survive. We do a lot of durability testing and really push the internals to the max before anything is released. Some other companies may really over-rev the engine to make a large increase but we have kept the rpm levels pretty modest, as this is the number 1 cause of valve train failure.
The kit comes with a standard pulley, which is 8psi. If you want something different than that, you'll have to order a seperate pulley.
As for exhaust, we have yet to test any of the aftermarket systems, but I'm sure Bassani, Borla and Magnaflow will all help increase the exhaust flow and reduce the heat in the engine. I can't give you hard data because we haven't tested it yet, but it certainly looks like it will respond well to a aftermarket exhaust system. There will be no changes to the system if you add an aftermarket exhaust system, everything in the PCM will still work.
I have also been in contact with Dusin at Whipple Superchargers. I asked him about using their supercharger on the automatic 05 GTs. Here is his response (reproduced here with Dustin's permission):
David,
Thanks for the email. The auto tranny is certainly not good for 475hp, it's pushing it at 400hp. We will release the manual kit first and will follow with the automatic transmission kit which will have more torque management, less boost and lower power so the trans will live. If you can find an upgrade for the trans, then we can give you more power, but the standard auto SC system will be de-tuned for reliability.
The factory engine is fine for the kit, we've designed it around 91 octane or better, as long as you keep this in it, you'll be fine.
Thanks, Dustin Whipple Superchargers
Dustin then sent me a brief follow-up message:
We will have durability test done on the auto once the manual is released so we can make it as safe as possible. Hopefully some of the other aftermarket companies will jump on the trans issue.
I have already e-mailed Lentech about this, and urge other '05 GT automatic owners to do the same.
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Joined: 2/16/2005 From: bay area Status: offline
I'm lost.. so the vortech and paxton SC are not air-air? I need water and a bag of ice? If the vortech will give you 420HP without the intercooler and the engine can only take 450hp without some major changes... then why go the whipple or vortech/paxton intercooler route? all for 30 hp more+ 2K more? hummm..
I'm lost.. so the vortech and paxton SC are not air-air? I need water and a bag of ice? If the vortech will give you 420HP without the intercooler and the engine can only take 450hp without some major changes... then why go the whipple or vortech/paxton intercooler route? all for 30 hp more+ 2K more? hummm..
Of the big 3 centrifugal blowers out there (Paxton,Vortec, and Procharger) only the procharger kits includes and air to air intercooler. If you wanted an intercooler for a Paxton or Vortec, you would have to buy it aftermarket and custom fabricate the tubing to make the intercooler fit. Vortec offers an option called an 'aftercooler'. It is not an intercooler. It is a box the air charge passes through between the blower and intake, that can be filled with ice. It isn't that efficient, and when the ice melts, it's ineffective. -And in some heat, the ice melts really fast. You have a point about the max hp issue. The biggest reasons why you would add an intercooler to, say, a Paxton, are to: 1) Keep the air charge as cool as possible for less chance of detonation(running lean). 2) Allow your motor to not have to work as hard to make max hp. With an intercooler, you can get more aggressive with your tune and run more timing safely. But, I see your point about max hp. The Whipple kit, and all twin screw kits, come with a heat exchanger (intercooler). The only kits that don't come with an intercooler of some type are the Vortec and Paxton kits (and Powerdyne).
Posts: 1368
Joined: 2/16/2005 From: bay area Status: offline
The only thing I want ice in will be my drinks. I'm dont know sheet about the SC systems, but I do know I dont want to "fill" my car with ice cubes.. haha.. something about that sounds gay. Before you race me lets stop at a store so I can get some ice..haha.. no thanks. But the 3.5K for the reg setup that gives you 120hp is nice with the perditor. You talked about procharger. When I had my 99 I was looking at procharger and they were getting a little more hp and I heard some good things about them too.. who knows...
From what I read, the Vortech aftercooler is a sealed "maintenance free" item...you cannot add ice. If you look at the design of the Mustang aftercooler and the aftercoolers for other cars where you can add ice, you'll see why. The design didn't leave room for the fill cap on top..it would have to be on the side, and well, good luck getting ice/water into that. I'll bet they will redesign it very soon to add ice...it's about marketing and that single trip down the drag strip where ice might actually help. Not only Vortech people use ice...have you been to a drag strip? Many people have bags of ice trying to get some kind of edge..."by any means necissary".
I'd like to have any of those mentioned superchargers, but my choice would be Vortech because I only own one car at a time, and the Vortech would be better for commuting since launching would be practically the same as stock and the boost would be more in the upper rpms (I'm often in bumper-to-bumper traffic). I don't think anyone driving anything other than a straight mean drag car would be dissappointed with any of those superchargers.
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Joined: 2/16/2005 From: bay area Status: offline
Yea.. thats sounds more like what I want too. I want something for the road. maybe in a blue moon go to the strip.. but I have never done that before except for a car show. If the vortech doesnt need ice all the time then 3500 for 120hp(no intercooler) + the preditor is a great deal. SOLD.. can anyone find it cheaper?
Posts: 466
Joined: 2/15/2005 From: San Diego, CA Status: offline
See my post on the shortblock motor for upgrades. I want to make sure I can do this right from the get go and know that I will want to continue to add and improve over the years, so I might spend a bit of the money now to get the 5.0 shortblock, which is supposed to be 40hp more from the get-go along with reinforced internals. Add a pulley, CAI, electric water pump, gears, etc. and you are well on your way. Of course a dyno to pull them all together.
It is expensive, but in the long run, appears to be the way to go (for me).
My problem has always been that I get tired of my cars too quickly, although I have not had sports cars. For the money, Mustangs are easy on the wallet, but can be comparable (with mods) to any car on the road.
Printable Version
RE: Whipple Supercharger for 05 GT - 
IS there anyone here with the hook up!!?? group discount? something..haha
