My 69 mustang has a 351w in it now. I heard clevelends were much better. Would my existing motor mounts allow me to put a clevelend in there? Also I have power steering, power brakes, ac compressor, and heater in my car now. Will they just bolt onto a clevelend like they do my windsor? Also is it worth upgrading to a clevelend? Im going to by a crate motor so if a clevelend is better I thought why not? If it is worth the upgrade what would be involved in modifications to get the clevelend to drop in there?
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This is a well debated issue. Search will net you plenty of results. I am sure plenty of others will also sound of again. Have fun figuring out opinions and facts
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Would my existing motor mounts allow me to put a clevelend in there?
Yes, 351c is a small black ford
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I have power steering, power brakes, ac compressor, and heater in my car now. Will they just bolt onto a clevelend like they do my windsor?
Yes, 351c is a small block ford
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Is it worth upgrading to a clevelend?
This is a well debated issue. Search will net you plenty of results. I am sure plenty of others will also sound of again. Have fun figuring out opinions and facts. On this specific issue my opinion based on research of costs to build 408 strokers tells me it is cheapest to build what you have. When you switch from one to the other you have the added costs of sourcing the additional parts (like a block).
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Im going to by a crate motor so if a clevelend is better I thought why not?
351w is your mule here, the reason being is you can't buy a cleveland crate motor that I am aware of.
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If it is worth the upgrade what would be involved in modifications to get the clevelend to drop in there?
There are no changes needed to the car to remove one small block fold and install a difference small block ford.
ps I like 'em both but never through away something that is perfectly good IMO.
Posts: 121
Joined: 7/12/2005 From: El Paso, TX Status: offline
I would keep the Windsor. If you plan on doing any kind of performance upgrades I think Windsors respond better and there is a lot more available. I remember reading somewhere a while back that the ports on the Cleveland 4V heads were way too ridiculous for street. If you're going with a crte motor I say definitely stick with a Windsor. Just my opinion.
I've heard that saying so many times like "it wouldn't be street car with that much power" or "it would be ridiculous on the street" but I don't quite understand those sayings. Would it be so fast that you couldn't even step on the pedel without peeling out, or would it be real squirly on the street? Please elaborate because I was hoping to get a 351w stroked out to a 427. I was gonna go for a 408 but a little extra money for a gain of 40 horses and some torque, you cant go wrong. But is 500 horsepower and a little over 500 torque gonna be too radical for street driving. Because its gonna be a daily driver for sure, but I wanna smoke any little rice burner on the street with a real car... the best classic muscle made. lol The only problem is that I don't want to take my car out of commission, thats why I was just gonna buy a new crate engine and just take the old 351w out of it and sell it to someone. Its not the original engine anyway. That way I don't have to stop driving it while its getting a new engine instead of modifying the current one and be out of commission for a while.
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It depends, some people think 300hp is a lot, others think 700hp is nothing. How much is too much depends on how the car is setup. If you have enough traction and driving skill for 700hp, then it's not "too much" provided it's something that can be driven practically(ie, doesn't need special fuel, meets legal requirements, isn't extremely difficult to drive - such as poor part throttle power when leaving stops etc). A lot of it comes down to suspension. 200hp could be too much with crappy suspension and tires, it won't hook and may handle like crap. Provided power doesn't exceed traction to the point where you can't control it or have to be ever so careful when you drive it, then I wouldn't consider it too much
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
I understand. So if you have good suspension, traction, ect. Then 500 horses can handle just like a lexus with 250 horses, but of couse a lot faster. lol
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With the right setup, yes. There is a point where that no longer is true though. Trying to get 5,000hp to get traction with street tires won't happen obviously
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
I understand. So if you have good suspension, traction, ect. Then 500 horses can handle just like a lexus with 250 horses, but of couse a lot faster. lol
I consider this statement to be a fact, but I am sure it will be debated anyway ;) "Vintage mustang will never handle like a Lexus unless you do something drastic like take your vintage sheetmetal and graft it onto a late model mustang and then spend a pile of money on that late model upgrading it. Regardless of suspension upgrades on an old mustang (which can be made to perform extremely well) the Lexus will have a few other things like anti lock brakes, traction control, depending on the model all wheel drive, etc... that unless you are planning HUGE changes to the car, you will never have."
A 500 HP 427 stroker powered vintage mustang will out accelerate many cars on the road however it is not an ideal setup for a daily driver for a couple of reasons. 1. A 427 (strokers in general and the 427 inparticular) will not be a 100k mile motor and generally there is a direct coorelation to the amount of money you spend building it to how many miles it will last for you. 2. A N/A carbed 500 HP will get poor gas mileage making for a rather expensive daily driver 3. A N/A carbed 500 HP will have poor street manners
I have a 410 cleveland in my 65 and it puts out close to 400 at the back tire. As soon as it rain (or snows) the car becomes more than a hand full to drive. I am not saying you can't, but if you want to build something at this level and use it for a daily driver you need to remember to also sink not just 6k min into the motor but another 12-20k into the car. Personally though if I had to have it as a daily drive I would do an EFI and forced induction on a standard stroke setup (or maybe a smaller 393 stroke).
Interesting thread. I agree with dodgestang and 67mustang302. IMO- theres no since in spending money/time for such a small(if any) gain. Put that money into the windsor you currently own and afterwards there wont be any comparison between the two.
Posts: 121
Joined: 7/12/2005 From: El Paso, TX Status: offline
I dunno if it was directed at what I said about the Cleveland 4V heads, but what I meant is that the ports are so big the streetability of the car would not be good. The low end would really suffer from the oversized ports.
Well it sounds like everybody agrees on a windsor. I suspose a 408 would do. Really like to get the 427, most crate engines I found are only 7-8 hundred more for a gain of 40+ horsepower and of course a little more torque too. Would really regret not upgrading if I find out that I will still strive for more power after I get the engine. Then crates that I found are usually around 6-7 grand so it should be a fair amount of money to spend, couse you get what you pay for in engines, or thats what I've found out lately. I would upgrade suspension later so it will probably drive like **** when I first put it in but its one thing at a time. Traction will be something that I will do if not the same time as I get the engine then shortly after. The FMX tranny should be able to handle that power easy. I will also upgrade to posi right around the same time. But im gonna worry about the engine first because the engine in the car right now is starting to get a little sick. lol
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If you put a lot of power in a car with bad suspension, you spend more in the long run when you replace crap that you keep breaking, such as u joints ans body panels(when you hit crap from losing control).
Good suspension on an old car can definately make it handle VERY well. Even a rear leaf spring type setup, if thought out well, can be made to handle nicely.
Also, consider a blower, since you can have a 351, or even a 302 and produce plenty of power, but have great drivability. A 302 built off the new Boss block for instance, with a nice blower setup and either EFI or a blow through carb could easily produce 500-600hp on pump fuel and drive every day with good reliability and manners, though would obviously be VERY expensive. Strokers can be a bear to drive with a lot of power, especially in bad weather, with all the bottom end torque. Simply looking hard at the gas pedal is enough to produce torque at the wheels. So yeah, like Dodgestang said, be ready to dump plenty of money into the rest of the car, and make sure everything is well thought out
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
I definitley agree that I will get a windsor. Been happy with it. Plus its really hard to find a cleveland so definitely a windsor. Although I don't want to break **** in my car just couse I cant afford a good suspension right away. I will hopefully not hit any walls but about ripping u joints and stuff like that. Is it really easy to tear something up on stock suspension or is it ok to run on stock suspension for a couple of months before I can offord to modify it?
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Posts: 3147
Joined: 1/18/2007 From: Las Cruces, NM Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Bogalu
I definitley agree that I will get a windsor. Been happy with it. Plus its really hard to find a cleveland so definitely a windsor. Although I don't want to break **** in my car just couse I cant afford a good suspension right away. I will hopefully not hit any walls but about ripping u joints and stuff like that. Is it really easy to tear something up on stock suspension or is it ok to run on stock suspension for a couple of months before I can offord to modify it?
Avoid dumping the clutch or doing neutral drops and the stock driveline and axle should live for a long time..... providing that the rear end is in respectable condition to begin with...
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66 Coupe I-6 Conversion, 408 Windsor, Tremec TKO 600 Wilwood fronts, SSBC Rears 9" Track Loc.
I would keep the Windsor. If you plan on doing any kind of performance upgrades I think Windsors respond better and there is a lot more available. I remember reading somewhere a while back that the ports on the Cleveland 4V heads were way too ridiculous for street. If you're going with a crte motor I say definitely stick with a Windsor. Just my opinion.
If you are starting from scratch a cleveland is going to be little cheaper than a Windsor for the fact that the stock Cleveland heads (2V or 4V) will out flow any stock Windsor head. If you are comparing aftermarket, then the price is pretty much even. Their is almost as much aftermarket support for the Cleveland as there is for the Windsor. Another fallacy is that the 4V heads are too big for the street, that is an old wives tale with no basis in reality.
Posts: 121
Joined: 7/12/2005 From: El Paso, TX Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: pushrodpower
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ORIGINAL: Deviousfred
I would keep the Windsor. If you plan on doing any kind of performance upgrades I think Windsors respond better and there is a lot more available. I remember reading somewhere a while back that the ports on the Cleveland 4V heads were way too ridiculous for street. If you're going with a crte motor I say definitely stick with a Windsor. Just my opinion.
If you are starting from scratch a cleveland is going to be little cheaper than a Windsor for the fact that the stock Cleveland heads (2V or 4V) will out flow any stock Windsor head. If you are comparing aftermarket, then the price is pretty much even. Their is almost as much aftermarket support for the Cleveland as there is for the Windsor. Another fallacy is that the 4V heads are too big for the street, that is an old wives tale with no basis in reality.
Very true about the Cleveland heads outflowing the Windsor heads but there is also too much.
I would keep the Windsor. If you plan on doing any kind of performance upgrades I think Windsors respond better and there is a lot more available. I remember reading somewhere a while back that the ports on the Cleveland 4V heads were way too ridiculous for street. If you're going with a crte motor I say definitely stick with a Windsor. Just my opinion.
If you are starting from scratch a cleveland is going to be little cheaper than a Windsor for the fact that the stock Cleveland heads (2V or 4V) will out flow any stock Windsor head. If you are comparing aftermarket, then the price is pretty much even. Their is almost as much aftermarket support for the Cleveland as there is for the Windsor. Another fallacy is that the 4V heads are too big for the street, that is an old wives tale with no basis in reality.
Very true about the Cleveland heads outflowing the Windsor heads but there is also too much.
I disagree, and I think all head porters would as well.
< Message edited by pushrodpower -- 10/29/2007 11:29:11 AM >
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Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 
