RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor.
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/30/2007 9:09:11 AM
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dodgestang
Posts: 1473
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This will prob. be my lost post on this issue. Driving any car requires the driver to be alert and aware. Depending on the condition of the car and the performance level of the car the amount of tolerance allowable in the level of alertness and awareness varies.
On a newer car the driver can become distracted or do something stupid occasionally without too much incident.
On a newer high performance car the drive can become distracted or so something stupid with a higher degree of negative fall out.
On an old stock car the drive can become distracted or so something stupid with a higher degree of negative fall out.
On an old stock car with so-so suspension and a high performance motor the driver can never become distracted or do something stupid without a negative consequence.
Here is what happened the second I failed to respect my 400 RWHP mustang with BRAND NEW EVERYTHING from headlights to tailpipes and everything in between I MEAN EVERYTHING brand new leafs, shocks, springs, traction bars, subframe bars, chassis stiffening, 255 40 tires, steering box, center link, tie rods, 4 wheel disc brakes....everything in the drivetrain, suspension, steering, and braking was less than a year old.
And this is 'lucky'. It's not everyday you can drive your 65 mustang under a tractor trailer at 70 MPH on I95, get dragged for hundreds of feet, and walk away without a scratch on you and also have enough of a car left to rebuild. It is because of the work I did to the car to prepare the made it survive but it also wasn't enough to prevent it from happening obviously.
< Message edited by dodgestang -- 10/30/2007 9:14:11 AM >
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/30/2007 9:11:10 AM
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Hawkins 812
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OUCH !!! I hate hearing them kind of stories... was this recent? Hows she lookin atm ?
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/30/2007 9:46:32 AM
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Hawkins 812
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Looking as beautiful as ever !!! Nice job man.
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/30/2007 11:44:13 AM
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mat11089
Posts: 693
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Y would u think im on something? because i pick up on your mistakes?And also there is nothing to thank you for because i didnt missinterpret anything i just restated what you had said.Im not going to forum argue with you anymore.
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ORIGINAL: Hawkins 812
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ORIGINAL: mat11089
Yet again Hawkins a wrong response.Although not manual engaged adn disengaged clutches, autos have clutch just the same.look it up.And also when referring to 4 v heads you make it sound like 4 valves (2 intake and 2 exhaust) please tell me thats not what you mean if not i appologize. I say build the windsor as already stated since you have it. It will also be less expensive to build than equivalent cleveland. The cleveland is more often than not referred to as a "race" motor but ive driven both and theyre both fun to drive on tre road.Alot of a motors driveability has to do with driver skill also.Well good luck and have fun.
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ORIGINAL: Hawkins 812
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auto trannys didn't have clutches,
Auto trannys dont, i believe you mis-interprited his statement.
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Also can a windsor handle 4v heads, or is that just something exclusive to the cleveland?
Yes, a windsor can handle 4 v heads.
WOW...are you on something? Of course a transmission has a clutch..ie; AUTO or MANUAL. The way he was interpriting needed corrected. BTW..a Windsor CAN handle 4v heads....where am i wrong?
BTW....you saying "yet again" makes me believe you didnt go back and learn from your mis-interpritation; http://www.mustangforums.com/m_4099528/tm.htm ..you can thank me later 
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/30/2007 1:16:38 PM
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Bogalu
Posts: 153
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I don't plan on driving underneeth trucks though. lol Although I see your point. I will drive it very tenderly till I can afford all of my suspension work. Untill then I just need to drive like that 65 year old grandmother going 40 in a 45 pissing everyone off. : ) lol
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/30/2007 2:25:14 PM
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67mustang302
Posts: 5421
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Well, first off 4V heads ARE too big for the street on a 302. It's gonna depend on engine size as to what rpm range a given head design will work in. The same head will operate better in a higher rpm range on a smaller engine, and a lower rpm range on a bigger engine. 4V heads have huge ports, so large that on a 302, and even some 351's that they generate poor port velocity. The other problem with 4V heads is the monsterous 235cc or so intake port that flows less than most modern 170cc aftermarket heads. That means that 4V heads on a 302 just do not make for a streetable rpm range. Yeah, on a larger engine they'll work better, but not a 302 or a 289. Proper head size for a given application is going to be determined by rpm range needed and engine size and efficiency.
And yeah, you have to respect power in an old car, they're not nearly as forgiving as a newer car with traction control. I remember pulling into traffic one day with a busted rear sway bar link, but didn't know it. I barely gave it some gas and found myself facing the wrong way in the street. Traction control in a 60's car is your feet and hands
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60'
Times from before tune and driver mod.
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/30/2007 5:26:02 PM
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Bogalu
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Sounds like 4v heads on a 351w 408 or 429 stroker would be perfect then. You get that low rpm power that most cars dont have.
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/30/2007 6:42:54 PM
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Bogalu
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Alright. I understand now. So when people say like AFR heads they could be 4v anyway, who know... i mean unless you looked. Im starting to understand now. Im just a little slow, thats all. Thanks for the help. Most people agree those aussie heads are mean though?
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/30/2007 7:26:08 PM
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67mustang302
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2V and 4V meant 2 venturi and 4 venturi, or 2 barrel and 4 barrel, which denoted the carb that came with those types of heads. 2V heads came from the factory with a 2bbl carb engine, and 4V heads came with a 4bbl carb engine. And you're not going to just bolt a set of C heads onto a W engine, there's some machining involved. And again, the effort involved in putting stock or modified C heads on a W engine is really a waste, the time effort and money is better spent getting a good set of heads that WILL just bolt right on without hassle.
2V and 4V isn't used to deonate venturi any more because cars aren't made with carburetors any more, now 2V and 4V denotes the number of valves per cylinder(though the terminology is still used to talk about C heads).
I think you need to get off the idea of putting some stockish C heads on a W engine, you seem to think it's gonna make a lot of power and you're gonna have some badass engine, and that's not the case. For a budget build if you already had a C engine they'd work fine and make decent power, but if you go dumping a bunch of money into a W based engine and then put some stockish C heads on it, you're going to be sadly disappointed for the amount of money you spend. Just build a W engine that you already have and put good heads on it
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60'
Times from before tune and driver mod.
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/31/2007 12:34:31 AM
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Bogalu
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Thats what I mean. Is 4v heads only clevland heads? Or is there like 4v aussie heads or afr heads. Im really a noob. No lie. I just want the most power for the least amount of money. I really want over 500 torque and who cares about horsepower but I would like that to be over 500. Its got to be a 351 though. I have air conditioning, power steering, heater, and power brakes on my mustang that still need to fit in the engine compartment. Thats why im not debating on getting a bigger engine. I live in vegas, it gets over 120 here in the summer, and in a car it gets another 20-30 degrees hotter than that. So its real important to keep the same size engine. Thats why a 408/427 stroker sounds so appealing, a lot of power for the same size engine. I just need some help here on deciding on everthing engine wise on my car. I really dont know where to start. I knew that a 351c was the same displacement and was a slightly more powerful engine. So I thought that stroking it out would give a better gain in power. Thats where I got my reasoning. So now you see my problems here. So recomendations on anything, from choosing the right engine/keeping the current one, to the upgrades, would help me. Thank you so much here guys.
< Message edited by Bogalu -- 10/31/2007 12:35:33 AM >
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/31/2007 8:31:50 AM
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pushrodpower
Posts: 157
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bogalu
Thats what I mean. Is 4v heads only clevland heads? Or is there like 4v aussie heads or afr headsquote:
Yes, 2V and 4V are Cleveland terms only. The Aussie heads are Cleveland as well. The Cleveland engine lived a lot longer in Australia than it did in the states. When you see AFR or CHI heads listed at 2V, 4V or even 3V, they are referring to Cleveland heads ONLY. Like Dodgestang said above, Windsor heads are referred to by part numbers, not 2V or 4V.
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. Im really a noob. No lie. I just want the most power for the least amount of money. I really want over 500 torque and who cares about horsepower but I would like that to be over 500. Its got to be a 351 though. I have air conditioning, power steering, heater, and power brakes on my mustang that still need to fit in the engine compartment. Thats why im not debating on getting a bigger engine. I live in vegas, it gets over 120 here in the summer, and in a car it gets another 20-30 degrees hotter than that. So its real important to keep the same size engine. Thats why a 408/427 stroker sounds so appealing, a lot of power for the same size engine. I just need some help here on deciding on everthing engine wise on my car. I really dont know where to start. I knew that a 351c was the same displacement and was a slightly more powerful engine. So I thought that stroking it out would give a better gain in power. Thats where I got my reasoning. So now you see my problems here. So recomendations on anything, from choosing the right engine/keeping the current one, to the upgrades, would help me. Thank you so much here guys.
As has been stated earlier, if you already have a Windsor in your car, stick with it. Not only will you be able to get all of the hp you are looking for, especially if you stroke it; but it will be a lot cheaper than buying a Cleveland and starting from scratch.
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1973 Mach 1 with many mods
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/31/2007 9:12:53 AM
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mat11089
Posts: 693
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Bogalu,weve all put it very simply, Forget the idea of 4v versus 2 v.This is y in the beginning i made the comment about forgetting it cuz it only applies to the number of valves nowadays per cylinder.Weve answered youre questions over and over.We are all very glad and quick to help but I among other get frustrated when the thread started doesnt listen/pay attention/asks the same questions over and over.If youre paying attention now, AFTERMARKET heads.NO 4v or 2v AFTERMARKET!!!! not trying to be rude at all just clarify.
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 10/31/2007 11:46:52 AM
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pushrodpower
Posts: 157
Joined: 10/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mat11089
Bogalu,weve all put it very simply, Forget the idea of 4v versus 2 v.This is y in the beginning i made the comment about forgetting it cuz it only applies to the number of valves nowadays per cylinder.quote:
Unless you're posting in a classic mustang forum asking questions about a Cleveland engine and then it is a relevant question. And a noob looking at aftermarket Cleveland is going to run into 2V and 4V designations. So in this context 2V and 4V does apply.
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Weve answered youre questions over and over.We are all very glad and quick to help but I among other get frustrated when the thread started doesnt listen/pay attention/asks the same questions over and over.If youre paying attention now, AFTERMARKET heads.NO 4v or 2v AFTERMARKET!!!! not trying to be rude at all just clarify.
Wow!!! If you get frustrated by the poster, nobody is forcing you to reply. Ford engines, especially Cleveland and Windsors can get a little confusing if you have no prior experience with Fords, or came from Chevy world where you just about unlimited interchangability with the small block.
< Message edited by pushrodpower -- 10/31/2007 11:48:48 AM >
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1973 Mach 1 with many mods
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