I believe the rear end is in good shape on my mustang. I have a lot of new parts on it to. New shock towers, shocks, ect. So the suspension is in pretty good shape. The FMX tranny is the only thing on the car I believe is like new. Haven't had 1 problem with it. Don't want to sound like a newb but I thought auto trannys didn't have clutches, also what is a "nutral drop". Please elabroate for me. Also can a windsor handle 4v heads, or is that just something exclusive to the cleveland?
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It depends on how the engine is built. If you have too large of a port on an engine that isn't capable of moving the air the heads can, then velocity, and power, suffer as a result. When power suffers, the engine doesn't pump air as effectively and reduces flow, so you end up with large ports that will never see their flow potential because the engine can't support it, and may even lose power because of it. 4V Cleveland heads are generally not recommended for most street cars because the rpm range a street engine operates in usually isn't enough to move the volume of air necessary to generate effective port velocity(strokers being 1 exception). Port velocity is often going to account for more power production that flow rate. Remember that flow rate and velocity go hand in hand, higher velocity = higher flow rate, lower = lower. A large port CAN flow more, but only if the velocity is there to move the air. You're better off with slightly lower flowing heads that have higher velocity than you are with higher flowing heads with lower velocity, because remember that the flow rate is only POTENTIAL flow at a given amount of vacuum. Again, when looking it a head, velocity is just as important, or some would argue moreso, than flow
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
Posts: 121
Joined: 7/12/2005 From: El Paso, TX Status: offline
well, when you go with a windosr you really don't have to worry too much about the whole 4V heads. When Ford was making the Cleveland motors they cast two different heads. a 2V head with the smaller ports, and 4V heads with huge ports.
To the guy who said there is no such thing as too much, try putting a set of 210cc heads on a stock or mildly modified SBF and see how much power you don't make.
Yet again Hawkins a wrong response.Although not manual engaged adn disengaged clutches, autos have clutch just the same.look it up.And also when referring to 4 v heads you make it sound like 4 valves (2 intake and 2 exhaust) please tell me thats not what you mean if not i appologize. I say build the windsor as already stated since you have it. It will also be less expensive to build than equivalent cleveland. The cleveland is more often than not referred to as a "race" motor but ive driven both and theyre both fun to drive on tre road.Alot of a motors driveability has to do with driver skill also.Well good luck and have fun.
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ORIGINAL: Hawkins 812
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auto trannys didn't have clutches,
Auto trannys dont, i believe you mis-interprited his statement.
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Also can a windsor handle 4v heads, or is that just something exclusive to the cleveland?
So a351w 427 stroker with 4v heads sounds pretty good then?
If you mean 4v cleveland heads, then you first need to find a very $pecial intake to allow C heads on a W block. Depending on your cam, they may work well but there are many head choices available now.
well, when you go with a windosr you really don't have to worry too much about the whole 4V heads. When Ford was making the Cleveland motors they cast two different heads. a 2V head with the smaller ports, and 4V heads with huge ports.
To the guy who said there is no such thing as too much, try putting a set of 210cc heads on a stock or mildly modified SBF and see how much power you don't make.
Everything in perspective. You wouldn't put a set of ported heads on an stock engine anymore than you would put a 700dp on a stock 302. The guy was talking about building a street motor. A properly built 4V cleveland is not lacking for low end torque. Period. Improperly put together, sure.
Pretty much any aftermarket Windsor family head is better than any stock Cleveland head. Stock for stock, Cleveland heads are better, Windsor family stock heads have ports so small you can get a finger stuck in them. If you're gonna go to the trouble of putting C heads on a W, you might as well just get some good W heads like AFRs or Darts etc. There are a few good aftermarket Cleveland heads as well, and they generally perform very well. Clevors can work well if done right, but if you honestly have to ask questions about what needs to be done, don't do a Clevor, you'd be better off building a more vanilla W with some good heads, you'll most likely make more power since it's harder to get wrong than a Clevor is.
And yeah, there is such a thing as too big. That's why the Boss 302's sucked on the street, they had ports so large they couldn't make much power under 5,000rpm. Ran fine at 7,000rpm though
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
Like I said. Im going for a stroker. 408 or 427. Im gonna keep my windsor and I will use it for my building block. Im gonna be hitting close to 500 horses with a 408 and over 500 horses with a 427 so this is not a light upgrade. Im planning to spend 6-7 grand for this engine. So if my engine will perform better with 4v heads with that kind of power, than hell, why not add them you know? Thats my logic, dont beat around the bush, get things done the first time so that you dont have to do them a second. So im not just looking to slightly modify a stock engine here guys. I want my stang to be the sickest thing on the street. period. I will be adding a paxton superchager to it later on. but no big rush on that right now. So far my plan has been first engine, then traction, then suspension, then superchager, then interior. Being this is my first step, I need to start planning it right away, im gonna start this build in then next couple of months, and if i wait till the last minute im gonna mess something up or get a bad part or ect. So that my plan. Help me out here guys. Thanks.
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Spending all that money to build a good stroker, and putting stock, or even modified 4V heads on it is a waste. And engine that large with a good cam would love something like an AFR 205, or Edelbrock Victor Jrs, and those heads will absolutely annhilate 4V heads, stock or modified in a street stroker rpm range. Stock C heads are good for budget Cleveland engines, or a race class that requires you run the stock head, but if you're going to dump a bunch of money into building an awsome street stroker, don't waste time with factory C heads, either get some aftermarket C heads like CHI, Edelbrocks etc, or get a good W head like AFR 205, Vic. Jrs etc. Otherwise it's like building a badass 347 stroker and putting stock 302 heads on it, all you end up with is a lot of potential that's held up by a factory head casting. Even a modified factory head can only go so far, newer heads are totally redesigned....they may bolt on and have port openings in mostly stock locations, but the similarities end there. Totally different port shapes and dimensions and internal locations, better cooling from improved coolant pathway designs, thicker surfaces for better gasket retention etc etc. No matter how much work you do to a factory head, it's never going to be as good as a well developed more modern head, and if you spend that kinda money building a high performance street engine do it right and start off with a better head, and if you want modify that head later. But don't handicap yourself by running a stock head that's 35 years old
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
If you are building a w please stop using 2v, 4v terminology, it'll just confuse people since one a w the difference is much more subtle between 2v and 4v than it is on the Cleveland
Building a 351w stroker you need some aftermarket aluminum heads for the w like afr 205s for example as mentioned before.
You will obviously need to do a significant amount of reading and planning before pulling the trigger on anything. For example if you build your new stroker for brute power now....that usually means you will want to 10-11 compression and run it on 93 octane, pick a specific cam, and pick a certain carb. To then add a supercharger to that you will either blow it up without race gas or need to lower the compression, prob change the cam to one tuned in for a SC application, and use a different carb for blow through/box application or switch to EFI.
Nothing wrong with dreaming big, but start with the basics...like building your suspension and brakes to suit the car first. Then learn how to drive it with a stock 351w and its 250HP/280ft/lbs
I also put together what I considered a 'fair' assessment of the costs to build either motor to equivilent power level sometime ago. Will give you a good idea of costs using mid grade parts, it doesn't account for using upgraded fasteners of any type and the final assembly isn't included in the figures. Take it for what its worth since its free
< Message edited by dodgestang -- 10/29/2007 8:42:41 PM >
dodgestang im glad you brought up the idea of the basics because no matter how fast it is if it doesnt stop in time you will not have it ver y long.Now to bogalu, u do realize if youre planning a supercharger the motor has to be built for a supercharger not just a motor and then supercharger separate.they have to to coexist peacefully,Lower compression for a sc motor.Is this your first motor build,first classic, or anything else? Sorry if you already addressed this and i didnt notice cuz im on pain medicine for extracted wisdoms so forgive me for miss things.
The Aussie CHI heads are about the best you can get for a stroked W or a built C. They call them a 3V head, more streetable than the 4V, but better flow than the 2V.
To answer a question posed above, a neutral drop is revving the engine with the auto in neutral then dropping it into drive and flooring it. Same as dumping the clutch with a manual, that is, it's very hard on the drivetrain.
The Aussie CHI heads are about the best you can get for a stroked W or a built C. They call them a 3V head, more streetable than the 4V, but better flow than the 2V.
To answer a question posed above, a neutral drop is revving the engine with the auto in neutral then dropping it into drive and flooring it. Same as dumping the clutch with a manual, that is, it's very hard on the drivetrain.
Hah, you mean more streetable than the 2V with more flow than the 4V. Those heads are beastly and slightly outflow Vic Jr heads i think(which is impressive, especially for a 185cc port). What the factory C head would have become if Ford had kept developing it up through the decades
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
So if you built a engine for a superchager but didn't add one right away would that be ok? The car can stop well, suspension on it will do the trick, I don't do any nutral drops or anything of the sort so I'm planning on upgrading the suspension later. The engine is sick. Burns oil like crazy, jets in the carb are too big. all kinds of problems so I need to get the engine done first. then the suspension and so on.
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"Signature? What kind of pen works on an LCD Screen?"
And yeah, there is such a thing as too big. That's why the Boss 302's sucked on the street, they had ports so large they couldn't make much power under 5,000rpm. Ran fine at 7,000rpm though
The downfall of the Boss 302 was lack of cubic inches. That is why the heads were originally designed for a 351 cubic inch motor. To take it to the next step, the 429 Cobra Jet heads are of a similiar design and have larger intake ports, nobody every accused that engine of being soft on the bottom. The myth that the 4V heads are too large for the street is just that, a myth.
Yet again Hawkins a wrong response.Although not manual engaged adn disengaged clutches, autos have clutch just the same.look it up.And also when referring to 4 v heads you make it sound like 4 valves (2 intake and 2 exhaust) please tell me thats not what you mean if not i appologize. I say build the windsor as already stated since you have it. It will also be less expensive to build than equivalent cleveland. The cleveland is more often than not referred to as a "race" motor but ive driven both and theyre both fun to drive on tre road.Alot of a motors driveability has to do with driver skill also.Well good luck and have fun.
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ORIGINAL: Hawkins 812
quote:
auto trannys didn't have clutches,
Auto trannys dont, i believe you mis-interprited his statement.
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Also can a windsor handle 4v heads, or is that just something exclusive to the cleveland?
Yes, a windsor can handle 4 v heads.
WOW...are you on something? Of course a transmission has a clutch..ie; AUTO or MANUAL. The way he was interpriting needed corrected. BTW..a Windsor CAN handle 4v heads....where am i wrong?
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RE: Debating on whether to get a clevelend or windsor. - 
If you're gonna go to the trouble of putting C heads on a W, you might as well just get some good W heads like AFRs or Darts etc. There are a few good aftermarket Cleveland heads as well, and they generally perform very well. Clevors can work well if done right, but if you honestly have to ask questions about what needs to be done, don't do a Clevor, you'd be better off building a more vanilla W with some good heads, you'll most likely make more power since it's harder to get wrong than a Clevor is. 
