Posts: 2707
Joined: 2/17/2005 From: San Francisco Status: offline
which is better and why? ive heard the cleaveland was but i dont know why. also, i heard there were other rare enginesmade like the michigan or some other place. is this true?
Posts: 2707
Joined: 2/17/2005 From: San Francisco Status: offline
like its just more compatible with performance parts or what? how differnt, architechture-wise are the cleveland and the windsor that the cleveland is noticibly better?
These days, there are many more performance parts available for the Windsor vs the Cleveland. That, plus the fact that the Windsor was in production so much longer then the Cleveland make the Windsor a popular choice today. That said, the reason the Cleveland has so much performance potential is the head design. It breathes much better in stock form then the Windsor head. The 2bbl head is better for street performance as the 4bbl heads like high rpm's. They're both good motors but if I was going to build a 351, I'd do a Cleveland. JMO.
Posts: 85
Joined: 7/18/2004 From: Newport News, VA Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: Shifty101Easy
like its just more compatible with performance parts or what? how differnt, architechture-wise are the cleveland and the windsor that the cleveland is noticibly better?
Windsor is a small block. The Cleveland is an "intermediate" block. A tweener if you will. Not technically a small block, but not technically (but sometimes listed as) a big block. When Ford desinged the Cleveland (esp the 4bbl head version) they realized that you can make lotsa power if the heads breathe well. The 4bbl heads on a Cleveland were built to breathe.
The gas crunch and introduction of emissions laws killed development of the Cleveland. I think they were only made from like '71-'74. Then came the neutered 351M and 400M.
Be warned though. They can be hard to find parts for. And as was said, expensive.
Posts: 85
Joined: 7/18/2004 From: Newport News, VA Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: 69FECoupe
These days, there are many more performance parts available for the Windsor vs the Cleveland. That, plus the fact that the Windsor was in production so much longer then the Cleveland make the Windsor a popular choice today. That said, the reason the Cleveland has so much performance potential is the head design. It breathes much better in stock form then the Windsor head. The 2bbl head is better for street performance as the 4bbl heads like high rpm's. They're both good motors but if I was going to build a 351, I'd do a Cleveland. JMO.
i can tell u that depending on what year you have its possible to fit both in just about every year. i have a cleveand, and my friend has a winsor both are 67 coupes and i know a few people who have put them in 65s where the engine compartment is smaller, but it was a squeeze.
the old clev..revs like crazy and it good for on the avg 1000 more rpms
_____________________________
IF YOU CAN'T BEAT'EM WHOOP THEIR ASS! '89 lx 5.0 5spd 4 sale 3800 '90 lx 306 s/c '90 lx 5.0 auto hockey sux mopar..I like midgets they hang nice from my x-mas tree
For what you will pay for a hot Cleveland, you can get a stroker Windsor with more HP. I think the Windsor is the better bang for the buck. And it will fit into any year mustang whereas the Cleveland wont.
Posts: 2707
Joined: 2/17/2005 From: San Francisco Status: offline
ok, so both have some upside and downside it seems like. Cleveland seems like you have to be more committed and attentive while the windsor isnt as demanding but still has potential to be preatty good like the Cleveland.
ok for you computer guys out there...is "stroking" your engine sort of like "overclocking" your engine?
It's not as easy as "overclocking". It's more involved than a dipswitch and a flex fan. What you're doing is changing the actual displacement. I would relate overclocking to running an engine at higher RPM then suggested...
As far as I can see, the Cleveland is like the Vortec stuff to the chevy guys. For stock parts, it's better. As someone already said, It's alot easier to find upgrades for a W than a C, so if you plan on alot of aftermarket stuff, the W will give you more options.
When you stroke a motor, you are changing the crank profile to take longer piston rods, thereby increasing the cubic inch displacement of the engine. I have seen kits that take a 351W block and increase it to a 427ci. And that one you can fit into a 65 of 66 body.
Commonly a 302 is stroked to 347 and the 351 to a 393 or 408. Best to buy a stroker kit or even short block from somebody like coasthigh performance. Big inch small blocks are good bang for the buck and weight...
You can get complete kits that are just drop in parts from places like Performance Automotive Warehouse (PAW), I think JEGs and Summit racing also. If you can turn a wrench, you can build a motor.
I am from australia and own a 351 cleveland in a 1976 ford landau. the engine produces 350 flywheel hp with stock 2v closed chamber heads, stock inlet manifold, and stock HEI ignition. It does however have a holley 650dp and a stage 3 heetseeker cam with 500thou lift on both inlet and exhaust. clevelands were the only small block ford V8 built in australia so parts are plentyful. Ford australia built two versions of the cleveland, 351ci and 302ci. the 302 has been known to produce 450hp with ported 2v heads and the 351 can produce 550hp. there is a 3v aluminium head wich has produced 550hp on a 351 unported with 10.2-1comp. there are only a few windsors used for racing over here being the cleveland is easy to extract power from. clevelands can be stroked to 412ci using a 400M crank
When you stroke a motor, you are changing the crank profile to take longer piston rods, thereby increasing the cubic inch displacement of the engine. I have seen kits that take a 351W block and increase it to a 427ci. And that one you can fit into a 65 of 66 body.
Not sure what you are trying to say.
Here is my Stroked 351 cleveland....408 cubes with a modest cam and STOCK cast iron heads putting 396 RWHP to the ground through an AOD, Ford 9 inch, and all installed in my STOCK 65 engine compartment.
The no BS bottom line is: "It is cheaper to build what you own already"
The difference between building a c and a w for performance is easily marginalized to the cost of the core parts...meaning if own a w and want to build a c...the cost to source the parts you don't already have (block, heads) make it more expensive to build...and vise versa.
Where I can drop 2k on a stroker kit and go to town on the stock heads for 500-600 (valves, springs, etc), you can't with a w...you have to drop $1500 on a stroker kit and then 1200 on new aluminum heads.
i have a 79 351w in my fox bodie and i couldnt ask for more the windsor has so much tourqe. the engine just about jumped in my lap i called a place and the guy had one i bought it rebuilt it put some heads on it the only part hard to find was the oil pan i needed an oil pan that had the dipstick in the pan not in the block after that i used my 302's roller rockers put the guide plates in for my 302's roller cam and i have a 79 351w roller motor parts were everywhere for it
Commonly a 302 is stroked to 347 and the 351 to a 393 or 408. Best to buy a stroker kit or even short block from somebody like coasthigh performance. Big inch small blocks are good bang for the buck and weight...
you could stroke a 302 but you get a oil burner form the piston pin being so far moved that the oil ring is under the piston boss causing oil to pass
Printable Version
351W vs. 351C - 
