I was wondering if the 400 having a longer stroke would make a difference. The 400m I thought was a modified cleveland. I just do not know ford engines that well.
< Message edited by dgulian -- 9/29/2007 8:31:32 PM >
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Joined: 1/18/2007 From: Las Cruces, NM Status: offline
The M is kind of a bastard engine, I don't mean this in a bad way per se, but have you looked for performance parts for an M engine? The reason I ask is because you wont find any.......
The M must use the big bell housing, so you can not use a C-4 with the M, (to the best of my knowledge anyway) IMO a C-6 is too big and it is a power eater...
I saw one guy talking about using an M on this website, just one,,,, there must be a reason for this....
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66 Coupe I-6 Conversion, 408 Windsor, Tremec TKO 600 Wilwood fronts, SSBC Rears 9" Track Loc.
The M supposedly stands for modified, but morphodite would be a better word I think. And yeah, you'll have a really hard time finding parts for it, selection will be limited. I'm not a fan of Clevelands anyway unless you actually bother to spend money on decent aftermarket heads, but you'd be better of with a C than an M
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
Posts: 3143
Joined: 1/18/2007 From: Las Cruces, NM Status: offline
Yea and thinking about it, I have seen at least twenty times the number of posts about putting a Chevrolet engine in a Mustang than I have seen about putting an M in a Mustang.... There must be a reason for this...
Everything I have ever heard or read about an M has been negative, everything....
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66 Coupe I-6 Conversion, 408 Windsor, Tremec TKO 600 Wilwood fronts, SSBC Rears 9" Track Loc.
I would not think of putting a chev in the mustang even though I have more experience with chevys. As I understand it the 351c has smaller combustion chambers in the heads. Would they not help push up the compression on the 400M ? Now a really dumb question , what is the difference between 2V and 4V heads? is it just the valve size? Does any one know the valve diameter of the two?
Posts: 3143
Joined: 1/18/2007 From: Las Cruces, NM Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: dgulian
I would not think of putting a chev in the mustang even though I have more experience with chevys. As I understand it the 351c has smaller combustion chambers in the heads. Would they not help push up the compression on the 400M ? Now a really dumb question , what is the difference between 2V and 4V heads? is it just the valve size? Does any one know the valve diameter of the two?
Most people say that a 351 4V is not a good engine for low end torque or even daily driving for that matter. The RPM band is way up there, and it has been said that they don't really build power at all until about 3,000 rpm. The 2Vs are supposed to be better down low.
The 2Vs and the 4Vs have the same valves, but the port size on the 4Vs is very large.
Some 2Vs and 4Vs came equipped with 2.19 int and 1.71 exh, and some had 2.04 int and 1.67 exh
"There are four basic variations of the Cleveland head. First is the 351C-4V head D0AE-H,-R with closed wedge chambers (62.8 cc) and huge ports (2.38 X 1.63 inches intake and 2.00 X 1.46 exhaust). Next is the 351C-2v head with smaller ports and open chambers. Third, there is the 351C-4V open chamber head D1ZE-DA and D1ZE-GA. And finally there'e the Australian Cleveland head that offers the best of both worlds- a closed chamber with 351C-2V size ports for improved low end torque for the street."
< Message edited by JMD -- 9/29/2007 9:59:23 PM >
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66 Coupe I-6 Conversion, 408 Windsor, Tremec TKO 600 Wilwood fronts, SSBC Rears 9" Track Loc.
Put CHI 3V 185 heads on it, with a good hydraulic roller cam in a 351 with good induction/exhaust/ignition, you can make 500+hp. They have ports as small or smaller than a 2V but flow WAY more than a 4V
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
The 351M/400M is a tall deck version of the 351C that uses the 429/460 bellhousing pattern and engine mounts. It also uses the 351C 2V heads. The 2V heads have smaller ports and valves than the 4V. The 2V heads have open combustion chambers. And as noted here, you will be hard pressed to find performace parts for the M.
If it were me and I had the 351C available it would be my choice.
I see some of the drawbacks.I also found summit has a carb and intake combos for the engine. Looks like the 400 is a lower rpm engine. I have been under the impression that more cubic inches is better???? For a street only engine would a 600 cfm respond better than a 750 cfm both being holleys on the 400?
The 400 is one of the 335-series engines introduced in 1972. The designation 400M is for the Midland designation or popularly known as the Modified. The 400 was a raised deck 335 series with a four-inch bore and four-inch stroke. It was concieved to replace the FE series 360 and 390ci big blocks. The 400M also had a 385 series Ford big block bell housing bolt pattern unlike the 351C, which had a small block pattern.
In 75, Ford destroked the 400 to 351 to reduce costs. It became the 351M. I know this because I was confused about the 400 myself, and read up on the switch. The 351M is heavy, and would NOT be considered a stump puller.
The 351C, 351M and 400M all use the same cylinder heads, which is the 351C-2V heads, and yes it is the same casting, and correctly stated it is the one with the best low end torque.
This is my 2 cents. I built a 1970 351 C 4V heads for my 82 F150. The truck had a 302 2V and AOD trans. The best part of the 351C are the heads. The 4V heads have larger valves, both intake and exhaust. It also has larger ports. These heads are big for the street and most recommend the 2V heads if running on the street. I didn't notice any issues running the 4V heads. The heads come in open and closed chambered. If I had to choose, Take the Cleveland, it leaves the 351w, the 351m and 400m far behind.
The Cleveland in stock form outperforms a 351W because the Windsor style heads pretty much suck. When you talk about adding aftermarket performance parts to a 351, then a Windsor outperforms a Cleveland due to a much wider availability of more well developed parts. Unless you talk about CHI heads which can be used as a stock Cleveland or stock Windsor head replacement(they offer the head with factory W configurations with coolant ports, accessory bolts etc) and then both engines are comporable in performance, though the W is easier to find parts for at a lower cost
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
Excellant post 69FECoupe! Dennis, The thing you need to be carefull of is that forums are opinions. The facts presented in the link do support useing a 351C in Mustang over a 400M but if that's what you have, make a budget stump pulling Mustang! I think they all have good advice about the question. If I had both to choose from, I too would prefer the 351C but since you already have the 400 and C6, go for it (I know you have the 400/C6 because we have talked before). The C6 is heavy and the 400 is too but the car is light. It might not win in the 1/4 mile if put up against the 351C car but stop light to stop light it will feel good. There is nothing wrong with the heads, the 2V heads will be fine. Follow the writer in the link's advice and pump up the CR and put a good cam & timing chain and the 600cfm should be fine as you won't be revving it. It does make a good truck engine and there are enough aftermarket parts to upgrade to a 4V and headers, cam, ignition, etc. Even if your car weighs in a few hundred pounds more than one with a 351C and a C4 you won't break anything! C4's can be modified to withstand a lot of power and the after market does make a bellhousing to fit a C4 to a big block) but stock, you'll break 'em! I have destroyed many. My 67 429/C6 might not be the fastest or lightest but it is fun to drive and it ain't no slouch! I bought the engine for $500, rebuilt it with a mild cam and a stock rebuild on the C6 (which was $350). I have less money in my whole car than some in just a stroker engine (I would love one but too much money for me). My low budget 429 will run all day on pump gas, smoke just about any thing in my neighborhood and is reliable. I made up some of the weight by swapping out the front end with FG parts, relocated the battery to the trunk, aluminum intake, headers, aluminum drive shaft, etc. and even the big heavy 429/C6 handles ok for a 40 year old car. Dare to be different! Good luck.
< Message edited by tarafied1 -- 10/1/2007 8:52:12 PM >
I vote for the 400 mostly because I had one in my 76 F150 which was my off roading toy. There isn't alot of performance parts for the 400 but what there are they can destroy anything. I had a bunch of edelbrock parts; intake, carb, heads, and cam and that truck could outrun my stock 95 5.0 mustang off the line with 35inch tires and a lift. I even mananged to destroy a 9 inch with it, blew up the spider gears and ripped the splines off the axles. It really didn't cost that much to upgrade it either, I know it cost less than 2K. I sold it to my friend but if you want I could find out exactly what parts they were.
As far as bigger engines weighing more, that's true. The smaller the engine the better, but engine and vehicle weight can be offset by more power. Bigger engine = bigger shot With a bigger engine just use a larger amount of nitrous in multiple stages
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Who cares how much horsepower it has, all that matters is how fast it goes!
Best run 13.23 at 106.97mph with a 2.183 60' Times from before tune and driver mod.
I intend to use a 400/C6 simply because that is what I have on hand. I will be building basically the same engine as at T. Meyer. I think if I can get 375 on the ground using this build I will be happy. One thing to watch for is that the 351m/400 motor mounts are totally unique to this engine. Also, there are no headers designed for the 400 in a Mustang, as far as I'm aware (though the 351c headers should work OK).
As far as no parts for a 400, tale a look at the 434 Fordmuscle.com did. Parts are avaliable, you just have to look.
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which 351m/400 or 351 cleveland?? - 
Victoria 
With a bigger engine just use a larger amount of nitrous in multiple stages 
