RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (Full Version)

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RE: EFI 5.0L Swap

  

jcomp -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 11:21:00 AM)

I bit the bullet yesterday and ordered the adjustable motor mounts to make clearance for the fan. The donor shroud should work out.

I've decided on this radiator: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM-380428

I'm also getting the el-cheapo shorty headers as suggested by JamesW.

I've already got a remote spin-on oil filter for the transmission. I'll also be ordering a cooler and thermostat for it.

In the past I've always used Holley red fuel pumps but this time I'm going to try a Carter P4070. It looks like it's easier to mount and it can't possibly be any louder than the Holley. If the Carter works out I'm going to convert both my Pontiac and Chevy to this pump.

I set the intake system on the engine to see how everything would fit. I'm probably going to get an aftermarket air filter because it's smaller and easier to mount. It will be a while before I'm ready to bolt the upper intake down, but it's a motivational picture anyway. [:)]

[image]http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustang302mockup1.JPG[/image]

  
gothand -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 12:52:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcomp


In the past I've always used Holley red fuel pumps but this time I'm going to try a Carter P4070. It looks like it's easier to mount and it can't possibly be any louder than the Holley. If the Carter works out I'm going to convert both my Pontiac and Chevy to this pump.


FYI, those fuel pumps are for carbureted engines, not EFI!

Good luck!
Jeff

JMD -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 1:22:54 PM)

Yea, you will need the clearance for the fan, I have seen fans set this close before, the results were not good. A radiator may actually bend in a little when it is met with wind resistance, I saw one with about a 1/4" or maybe even a 1/2" of clearance come into contact with the fan.


Also, it is logical that a fan moving air to the rear of the car would flex toward the front to some degree..... I don't think I would set a mechanical fan closer than 1" to the radiator....

JohnnyK -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 1:59:22 PM)

So how exactly is your fuel delivery system going to work? Surge tanks and double pumps seem like a real chore, there has to be a better way. Almost seems easier to cut the tank open and add baffles or something?!

jcomp -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 2:52:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnnyK

So how exactly is your fuel delivery system going to work? Surge tanks and double pumps seem like a real chore, there has to be a better way. Almost seems easier to cut the tank open and add baffles or something?!


I'm going the double pump with a surge tank route. I want to mount my donor EFI in-tank pump inside the surge tank and save the cost of having to buy an inline pump. I'm heading out to a scrap/surplus dealer tomorrow to see what I can find to build what I want. There are several different surge tanks available for purchase and using one of them would simplify matters. JamesW uses one that seems pretty common and is made from a spin-on fuel filter and a remote oil filter adapter and is sold by BC Broncos.

If you wanted the in-tank pump, Fuel Safe makes an in-tank 'surge tank collector':

[image]http://www.fuelsafe-hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/4549_hdr_2_l.jpg[/image]

They probably offer an EFI-ready tank for the Mustang also. But the surge tank collector starts around $250 and goes up from there and that is for just the part. It still has to be installed, and it looks like it's intended for a tank where the pickup is installed from the top.

It's a problem that doesn't have an easy solution. The "best" way (EFI-ready tank) is the most expensive unless you can fabricate it yourself (I can't). The two pump/surge tank system is something that anyone can build themselves, is relatively inexpensive (you can get both pumps and the surge tank from BC Broncos for $235), and will do the job. It's just not as clean looking. [:)]

JohnnyK -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 4:49:58 PM)

Hmm I can't seem to find this 'surge tank' on their site? So it's a mini fuel tank that mounts to a frame rail or something? No, it doesn't sound too clean.. :D I don't completely get how it works either.. if you had a low pressure pump in the tank (Or external, I guess) that sucks it slow enough that you wouldn't have slosh issues, then wouldn't the high pressure pump just drain the surge tank and you'd be back to square one, with an extra pump hooked up?

And my other dilemma is still, would an in tank pump have more fuel slosh problems (Just sticking an SN95 or Fox in tank pump into the stock fuel tank) then running an external fuel pump with the stock sending unit, or would it be identical?

Thanks for the ideas man!

tarafied1 -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 4:52:27 PM)

nice progress, this should be a sticky. I'm gonna need this info some day!

jcomp -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 5:27:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tarafied1

nice progress, this should be a sticky. I'm gonna need this info some day!


Thanks. I think I'm going to take a few days off of the project... I ordered a lot of parts today and they should start showing up later in the week. I've spent FAR more time researching parts on this project than I thought I would. I think that's been the biggest challenge of this project so far: deciding, from all the many options, how to proceed. My puny brain is starting to hurt. [:D]


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnnyK

Hmm I can't seem to find this 'surge tank' on their site? So it's a mini fuel tank that mounts to a frame rail or something? No, it doesn't sound too clean.. :D I don't completely get how it works either.. if you had a low pressure pump in the tank (Or external, I guess) that sucks it slow enough that you wouldn't have slosh issues, then wouldn't the high pressure pump just drain the surge tank and you'd be back to square one, with an extra pump hooked up?

And my other dilemma is still, would an in tank pump have more fuel slosh problems (Just sticking an SN95 or Fox in tank pump into the stock fuel tank) then running an external fuel pump with the stock sending unit, or would it be identical?

Thanks for the ideas man!



No problem, I like to talk this stuff through with other people.

The surge tank (it has many other names, too) acts like the float bowls of a carburetor. It is a small storage of fuel for the engine to run on when the main tank pickup is uncovered. Most people run the fuel return line from the engine to the surge tank so it won't be emptied as quickly when the low pressure pump is not feeding it. The low pressure pump, when it's running, is constantly filling the surge tank and the surge tank has a return to the main tank. A diagram here would help a lot:

[image]http://sdsefi.com/fuelsys.gif[/image]

JamesW has an excellent explanation (and diagram) of how the two pump fuel system works: http://www.midnightdsigns.com/james/FuelSystem.htm
Here's the surge tank: http://bcbroncos.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=131_108&products_id=119
Here's another: http://www.rosehillperformanceparts.com/H%20Tank%20info.htm
Another: http://www.awildchild.com/accum1.htm
Another: http://www.geocities.com/hrayhouston/antisurgetank.html
http://toyotaperformance.com/surge_tank.htm
http://www.sr510.com/fuel.php
http://sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm
And I'm sure there are MANY more out there.

A low pressure pump inside the tank would work as well as an external pump, but I'm not sure such an animal exists. I wonder if one could use a high pressure pump to fill the surge tank. I guess it would work if it could handle always being free-flow.

Someone on another forum pointed out the Fuel Safe in-tank collector and Mustangs Unlimited carries it as part number ST100B. It's listed on page 91 of my catalog but there is no picture. It is designed to be placed inside a fuel tank. The ports on the bottom are one way and as the fuel sloshes around it will be trapped inside the collector. There are other varieties of this kind of thing out there, some with built-in high pressure pumps.

JohnnyK -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 6:37:35 PM)

Man, that does sound messy/complicated.. ;) Might be the best option though. I ordered a 69 tank today just in case I decide to stick with only a high pressure in-tank (Or external) pump and no surge tank.. I'll just calibrate it so 1/4 is empty.. ;) But yeah, I mean, would using only an in-tank HIGH pressure pump be any worse than using only an external high pressure pump (Just one pump, no surge tanks) do you think?

jcomp -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 7:19:24 PM)

I think an in-tank high pressure pump would work better than an external because, in general, electric fuel pumps are better at pushing fuel than pulling it out of the tank. I would ask around, though. I'm by no means an authority on the topic. I'm making it up as I go along. [:D]

Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if a person could use an oil accumulator to make up for a loss of fuel system pressure. Those things hold a few quarts so they should have more than enough volume. Some EFI cars have a fuel accumulator from the factory, that might be worth researching. I've read that the DeLorean had one. [:)]

JohnnyK -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 7:51:47 PM)

I'm beginning to think that the easiest route would be to use either an in-tank SN95 pump or external high-pressure pump, and weld some baffles into the tank.. the only problem I'd have with this is cutting into my brand new tank. So new, I ordered it 4 hours ago.. :D But seriously, it might actually be the easiest solution? The problem I see with the SN95 in-tank pump (Assuming the actual mating flange to the tank is the same) is the sending unit would not be calibrated for the same dimension of pump) so I'm thinking an external high pressure pump with baffles in teh tank might be best/cheapest/easiest?! Maybe not cheapest, I'm out of argon.. :D

JohnnyK -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/8/2007 8:07:01 PM)

Fuel cell foam?

jcomp -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/13/2007 8:34:26 PM)

The parts I ordered last week are starting to finally show up. I've got the headers in..

[image]http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangpheader1.JPG[/image]

[image]http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangdheader1.JPG[/image]

These fit much better than the stock 5.0 headers.. [8D]

The Carter low pressure fuel pump is mounted and the fuel return is soldered into the sending unit:

[image]http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustanglpfuel1.JPG[/image]

I ran the output of the pump to the return port on the sending unit, put in about 8 gallons of gas, ran the pump for a while, and checked for leaks. None so far. I'm going to cap off the old fuel line and leave it in place.

The radiator came in today and I trimmed the radiator support. There is now enough room for the new (and wider) fan:

[image]http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfantest6.JPG[/image]

The radiator is leaning to the left in the pic but it will be mounted more vertically.

Hopefully the subframe connectors will show up tomorrow so I can get those in and then I'll be ready to run the fuel lines. [:D]




JamesW -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/13/2007 8:58:04 PM)

Here's some pics of Isaac's 65 Gas tank mod to insert a later model fuel pump.

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_028

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_032

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_277

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_275

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_278

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_033

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_066




JMD -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/13/2007 9:02:24 PM)

That fan looks pretty damn close,,,,,, especially at the bottom...

quote:

ORIGINAL: jcomp

The parts I ordered last week are starting to finally show up. I've got the headers in..

[image]http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangpheader1.JPG[/image]

[image]http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangdheader1.JPG[/image]

These fit much better than the stock 5.0 headers.. [8D]

The Carter low pressure fuel pump is mounted and the fuel return is soldered into the sending unit:

[image]http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustanglpfuel1.JPG[/image]

I ran the output of the pump to the return port on the sending unit, put in about 8 gallons of gas, ran the pump for a while, and checked for leaks. None so far. I'm going to cap off the old fuel line and leave it in place.

The radiator came in today and I trimmed the radiator support. There is now enough room for the new (and wider) fan:

[image]http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfantest6.JPG[/image]

The radiator is leaning to the left in the pic but it will be mounted more vertically.

Hopefully the subframe connectors will show up tomorrow so I can get those in and then I'll be ready to run the fuel lines. [:D]





jcomp -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/17/2007 8:39:51 PM)

I've got the adjustable motor mounts installed. They got me a whopping 1/2" of additional clearance, plus the kit had missing hardware. The fan now has 3/4" clearance to the radiator at the closest point which still seems a bit close to me. Especially with a thin plastic fan. [:D] Now I'm leaning towards returning the fan and clutch and going with electrics. I'm REALLY not partial to electric fans, but I may still go that route. I'll mull it over while I'm on vacation next week.


The subframe connectors are also welded in. I went with the Tin Man connectors because they were cheap and heavy duty. They fit well but the prep work was a messy PITA. I'm glad that's over with and the car didn't catch on fire (very much). [8D]

Next on the agenda is to run the fuel lines, mount the radiator, get a driveshaft, and hook up the shifter. I wonder if I can adapt the donor cable shift parts to the 69 shifter. Stay tuned for more. [:)]

Has anyone tried using one of the Fox Mustang "cold air" kits on their EFI conversion? Putting the air filter in the wheelwell would free up some room under the hood but I wonder about clearance with the tire at full jounce, not to mention all the debris and water hazard.

petec -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/20/2007 12:34:35 PM)

When you mount your radiator permanently, make sure the top is leaned toward the engine a couple degrees. The reason for that instead of being perfectly vertical is the airflow is forced to run into the tubes on a crossflow radiator. It will help cooling SLIGHTLY.

tarafied1 -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/20/2007 12:41:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: petec

When you mount your radiator permanently, make sure the top is leaned toward the engine a couple degrees. The reason for that instead of being perfectly vertical is the airflow is forced to run into the tubes on a crossflow radiator. It will help cooling SLIGHTLY.

I didn't know that, cool (pun intended).

I like the progress, more pics!!!

jcomp -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/26/2007 10:14:17 AM)

Well, after much deliberation, I'm ditching the mechanical fan plan and going with an electric. There just isn't enough room. The radiator is against the frame, the oil pan is against the crossmember and there is still only about 4.5" of clearance between the radiator and the water pump. It MIGHT fit OK, but the electric fan WILL fit OK. So that's what I'm doing. [:)]

Here's the one I've got picked out: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=FLX%2D180&N=700+400226+315460+115&autoview=sku
I like this one because it will cover almost the entire core of the radiator and it draws 18 amps. I think the CFM ratings of electric fans are a bunch of hocus-pocus advertising BS, but it stands to reason that a fan that draws 18 amps at 13V will do more work and move more air than a fan that draws less current. Of course, this assumes that the fans are equally efficient. I'm shopping around to find this fan at a better price than Summit offers.

I'll be getting these collectors for the shorty headers: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=HED%2D21127&FROM=MG The collectors that came with the headers were 2" and I'd rather go a little larger. Plus these have the O2 sensor bungs already installed.

I've been debating on what to do about rims and tires for over a year now. I've got a set of American Racing Daisy rims but they are 14" and I'd rather go with 15" because tire availability is better. In this case "tire availability" also means "I already have some good tires from the donor car". So I'm thinking I'll go with a set of these:
[image]http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/crr-397_w.jpg[/image]

until I upgrade the rims on my Pontiac. It has a set of 15" Cragar S/S rims that would look good on this Mustang.

I'm considering getting a valve body recalibration kit for the AOD from these guys: http://www.becontrols.com/products/aodcat.htm
Does anyone have any experience with this company?

19stang66 -> RE: EFI 5.0L Swap (8/26/2007 4:53:40 PM)

WOW! I really enjoy reading your progress. Someday, I will do this conversion and thanks to you, JamesW, and others it shouldn't be too hard of a project. Keep the updates coming!

  

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