Details of the project can now be found here:


http://carmutations.com/tiki-index.php?page=69+Mustang+EFI+5.0L+Install

Look for "James W" on here, he will be able to help with any specific questions. What kind of ECMyou be using? Thats usuallythe big hang up with an EFI, getting them to run. But once they do, you will be spoiled.

Yeah, I've read JamesW's site and quite a few others. There's a lot of information out there on this swap which is one of the reasons I'm doing it. I also like how I can just buy some of the conversion parts instead of having to build them.

I'll be using the ecm from the donor car, I haven't looked at it closely to see which specific program code I have. I think the wiring will be the most tedious part of the build, but more time consuming than difficult. I was trained in the military to work on electronics and I spent 8 years calibrating, troubleshooting, and repairing electronic test equipment. I'm hoping I will be able to figure out how to wire this car. I guess we'll see...

Anyway, I've broken my basic plan of attack down to three main areas. The mechanical, plumbing, and electrical. Step one will be to get the engine mounted in the car and handle the driveshaft, throttle, mounts, etc. Step two will be to do the fuel system, cooling system, power steering. Step three will be to wire it all in. It's not a rigid plan, but it's a good way to break this large project into a series of smaller ones.

I'm looking forward to being spoiled. :D

Yes, im doing the same with my 66 and i like the idea of moving the dip stick how and were did u learn that and do u have to

ORIGINAL: OutLaw66stang

Yes, im doing the same with my 66 and i like the idea of moving the dip stick how and were did u learn that and do u have to


It is pretty obvious where to drill once you get in there. You can see my dipstick peeking out behind my alternator.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b264/pupntaco/Mustang/DSC_0138.jpg

Do you always write notes to yourself - 'ATF Type F'? Have you considered 'Post-it' notes? And can you see the ground thru all that plumbing, belts and other junk? At least it's clean.
Jim

ORIGINAL: OutLaw66stang

Yes, im doing the same with my 66 and i like the idea of moving the dip stick how and were did u learn that and do u have to


Here's JamesW's page on the subject: http://www.midnightdsigns.com/Mustang/Engine.htm
Here's another one: http://www.mustangandfords.com/howto/16159_engine_aod_transmission_swap/

If the drilling is not something you want to do, Jegs has a kit to take care of the conversion. New oil pan, timing cover, dipstick, etc.

The dipstick should be moved because it needs to go down into the oil pan sump.

OK i see now thanks.

You'll like being spoiled. I drove mine 250 miles last weekend..... average 22.7 mpg.

ORIGINAL: 66GTKFB

Do you always write notes to yourself - 'ATF Type F'? Have you considered 'Post-it' notes? And can you see the ground thru all that plumbing, belts and other junk? At least it's clean.
Jim

That Type F white letters was the first thing my eyes went to when I opened it. Ya' know when you are getting old when you have CRS disease and have to write notes to yourself in your engine bay. :D Just teasing Jeff. Keep on truckin' brutha.

ORIGINAL: 66GTKFB

Do you always write notes to yourself - 'ATF Type F'? Have you considered 'Post-it' notes? And can you see the ground thru all that plumbing, belts and other junk? At least it's clean.
Jim


:D Ha ha, that will be coming off! The front drive accessories, including the power steering pump, were originally from an '85 GT vert that my father and I built up in the late 80's. It was his bright idea to write that on there, but being that it was really hidden in the engine bay of an '85, it didn't seem that big of a deal at the time.

Here is as short of an explanation of my current build as quickly and best as I can describe it:
Took a nice, almost new '85 GT vert (loved that car) and swapped in a built351W, WC T5 tranny, subframes, 8.8" rear, 245 gatorback tires, Kaufmann prepped suspension (does anybody else remember that name from the early Fox body days?)
About 1992, happened upon a straight, partially disassembled'65 A-code fastback for $3000 in need of paint and a driveline and bought it as a project (already had a '65 GT coupe driver).
'85 was getting more and more difficult to smog :Dand body was showing lots of wear so I pulled the engine and tranny and set off to build a performance prepped fastback (I was only 23 or 24 at the time, single and fresh out of college).
Added a new Currie 9" and a Global West suspension, swapped in 351W and T5, had custom headers and exhaust built and reupholstered the seats.
The economy, specifically home development, hit its worst, most prolonged recession in the L.A. area ... put project on the shelf. [:o]
Economy picks back up, get bit by the Jeep bug, park '65 GT in storage next to the fastback.
Marriage, kids ...
Sold storage facility so the Mustangs have to find new place to hibernate ... my home garage.
Five cars are too many to store at my house so one has to go ... bye bye GT coupe.
Staring at the fastback gets the juices flowing again so the project resumes (last October).
Engine did not age well in 10 years of storage so out it comes for a 302 which fits better in the engine bay.
Bought crate motor and swapped it in and out several times due to a rear main seal leak, ultimately returning it because the builder's fixdidn't work. (engine shown in previous pic)
Bought Ford Racing crate motor like I should've in the first place. (no pic)
Motor in, dynotuned, runs like a clock and is very streetable. :)
Nearly every part purchased, restored and/or polished and ready for install.
Car blasted, primed, sanded, prepped
Review color spray sample tomorrow (7/25) in anticipation of spray next week.
Get car back, paint and reassemble interior and assemble exterior.
Pour a cold Guiness, forget about the thousands of dollars spent, blood (seven stitches above the eyebrow), sweat and tears (more than I'd care to admit :D) and the 15 years it took to finish... and think about the 'vert I'd like to have. :D
This has been an interesting project to say the least. The finished product will reflect how much a person can change in 15 years and four kids. What started out as a performance build finishes as an attempt to retain as stock appearance as reasonably possible (exterior looks 100% stock except for slightly lower stance) given the parts that are already in place (suspension, driveline). Mark my words, if and when I get a 65/66 vert, it will be planned and completed in a more timely, organize manner. Better yet, I may just purchaseone already completed and save some money.[sm=goodidea.gif]

My plan of attack would be to do all the mounting first. I think you will have to fab the engine mounts though, not sure if they have anything out for that. I pretty much built my whole car, then disassembled it for paint.Are you going to loose the shock towers in favor of a Mustang II front? As far as the wiring, ifyou can read schematics, it should be a breeze. I prompted for an aftermarket ECM. At first, I was very intimidated by the program, but once I learned to turn the screws and twist the distributor on the keyboard, it became fun to mess with. Tune the carwithout raising the hood. Good luck and have fun. Oh, Idid starta file and notebook on the build, justto keep my head on straight.

ORIGINAL: JamesW

You'll like being spoiled. I drove mine 250 miles last weekend..... average 22.7 mpg.


I think I'll like that quite a bit. :D


ORIGINAL: 67 evil eleanor

My plan of attack would be to do all the mounting first. I think you will have to fab the engine mounts though, not sure if they have anything out for that. I pretty much built my whole car, then disassembled it for paint. Are you going to loose the shock towers in favor of a Mustang II front? As far as the wiring, if you can read schematics, it should be a breeze. I prompted for an aftermarket ECM. At first, I was very intimidated by the program, but once I learned to turn the screws and twist the distributor on the keyboard, it became fun to mess with. Tune the car without raising the hood. Good luck and have fun. Oh, I did start a file and notebook on the build, just to keep my head on straight.


I went ahead and bought the Ron Morris AOD crossmember so, in theory, the engine/trans should bolt in with the stock isolators. I came VERY close to ordering a Heidt's Mustang II front suspension for the car but decided not to. I'm not too concerned with the prevailing opinion of "experts" that it isn't an optimum suspension, I think it would be fine in my daily driver. The reason I'm holding off is because I don't want to make the project too big. I'd like to be driving the car next month. It's still on the table, though. I do plan on installing a set of Heidt's subframe connectors before this is all over.

It would be great to be able to tune the engine with a computer. I happen to write software for a living (have a degree in Mathematics/Computer Science) and the fusion of my job and my hobby would be pretty cool. But I want this project to be mostly off-the-shelf parts. When I get around to putting turbos and fuel injection on my Pontiac... It will be exciting. Gotta build a good reliable driver first, though. :D

I've been taking a lot of pictures as I go, I might build a website detailing my project. I think I'm going to do a few things differently than some of the other sites I've seen.

Here's another pic of the dipstick on the 5.0:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/89fiveliterenginedipstick3.jpg

It's got some extra curve in it from being too enthusiastic about tapping it down with the hammer. :eek: But it functions properly, so I'm not going to redo it.


I got the old 351 and trans pulled out today. What a mess. I also pulled off most of the front of the engine. Found a bad connector going to the alternator, broken bolt on the water pump, bad harmonic balancer, rust colored antifreeze, the lower radiator hose spring was entirely rusted and broken in places. The thing was so dirty I stopped halfway through and pressure washed the newly exposed portions of the engine compartment.

Anyway, I drove it this afternoon one last time and here's what it looked like when I started:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangengine2.jpg

And here's what it looks like now:
http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangnoengine1.jpg

Time for a shower and maybe a run to get some beer. [8D]

This was a fun read. Looks like fun too, then I remember mine is sitting in my driveway without and engine, then it's not so fun looking anymore:D The tube installation was my favorite part, looks great. Good luck to you, keep taking those great photos!

Roy

Not to hijack the post , But im am intrigued by EFI ...

can you make the swap to any SBF Engine?

how much gas does it save you ?

ORIGINAL: 06triplevalve

This was a fun read. Looks like fun too, then I remember mine is sitting in my driveway without and engine, then it's not so fun looking anymore :D The tube installation was my favorite part, looks great. Good luck to you, keep taking those great photos!

Roy



Thanks, Roy. I think the fun part is the assembly because the tear down is so messy. :D

takeoutexodus: There is a ton of information out there about this EFI swap, including a Mustangs Plus article on installing the later model EFI on an older engine. Start another thread and I'll give you the link. :D

You restomod guys slay me. You are always looking at ways to make your classic Mustang like a modern car with efi conversion, etc. If you want a modern car, buy a modern car.

I've been in the final stages of selling a house I own 200 miles away so I haven't had much time to work on the Mustang. But the house is now sold (what a relief) and I can get back to work. Too bad it's raining right now and I have to do all this work outside. So here's an update. :)

I got the old engine and trans torn down and stashed away in four 55 gallon drums. The drums are sealed up and airtight so everything will be ready for me if I decide to make the car original again. Plus everything is being kept together and out of the way. Everything I took off went into a barrel.

The old 351W still had the engine tag under the coil and had the last few digits of the car's VIN stamped onto a pad on the back of the block below the driver's side cylinder head. According to the tag, this engine was code "K211-S".

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangenginebarrel.jpg

Here's the pressure washed and painted engine compartment (I took these a few minutes ago in the rain):

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangenginenbay3.jpg

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangenginenbay2.jpg

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangenginenbay1.jpg

The paint is semi-flat black. The pressure washing removed a lot of the old paint so I had to break out the shake-and-shoot and start fogging. It's not a great job but this isn't a restoration. Not a lot of "resto" in this "restomod". :D Oh, and those paint runs are OE. [8D]

I'm really having a hard time resisting the urge to get out the sandblaster and making this project a lot bigger.

Yesterday I found a couple of allen plugs for the thermactor (smog) ports on the back of the 5.0L heads. For the record, they are 5/8-11. Turns out there is a place about a mile from my house that only deals in fasteners. They gave them to me gratis, which I thought was cool. They've been there about 10 years which means I've wasted a lot of time over the last 10 years running around looking for bolts. :eek:

Trick-Flow also sells the plugs and you can buy them through Summit for under $4. My problem with them is that they are about an inch long and hard to thread into the carbon-encrusted port.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangengine3.jpg

The engine/trans is in the car so I could see how everything cleared. I kept the factory 89 Mustang exhaust manifolds to see how they would fit. Here are some pics:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustang89exhaust1.jpg

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustang89exhaust2.jpg

There is a tiny bit of clearance on the passenger side but the driver's side is barely touching the steering box. If the manifolds were 1/4 inch narrower on both sides everything would be great.

The motor mounts are pretty well lined up:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangenginemount1.jpg

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangenginemount2.jpg

There is a TON of room behind the engine:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangenginefirewall1.jpg

The AOD crossmember fit perfectly:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangtransmount1.JPG
The passenger side trans mount threads were stripped (the bolt FELL out when I went to remove the old mount) but the bolt was long enough to put a nut on it.

I was hoping I could get away with the POS 89 Mustang exhaust manifolds so I could save the huge expense of real headers for now. Next I'm going to get some adjustable motor mounts and try moving the engine back an inch or so to make the POS exhaust fit. If it works, great. If not, then I'll be spending about $800 for some ceramic coated long tubes and the adjustable mounts will come in handy anyway to make some room for the radiator and fan.

What is it they say? Take your projected budget and double it? This is about to start cutting into my supercharger fund. :D

A rough measurement of the old 69 Mustang driveshaft shows it to be just a little long. FYI, the AOD has a different yoke than the FMX. Obviously, I'm not going to have the driveshaft shortened until I get the engine mounting worked out.

Jeremy,
I suggest you skip the adjustable motor mounts and just buy some headman shortie headers from Summitt for now. I think you can pick up some that will fit fine for about half the cost of those adjustable motor mounts.

These sell for $145

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/hed-88400_w.jpg

cool project, thanks for documenting it. I have a trashed 68 and an 87 5.0 with AOD and I'm planning the same thing. It will be very helpful.

James, that's a great idea. I had ruled out shorties when I was planning since I didn't want to buy any parts that weren't part of the long term plan (which is long tubes). However, I still want to go through the brakes and suspension after I get it drivable again. Also rear gears (thinking 4.10s) and some sort of traction aid. Plus rims/tires. Plus a stereo. Plus whatever else is broken. :D

On a project of this size it will be better to spend less now even though it will cost me more in the long run. Looks like el-cheapo shorties might be the way to go.

Thanks,

Jeremy

ORIGINAL: tarafied1

cool project, thanks for documenting it. I have a trashed 68 and an 87 5.0 with AOD and I'm planning the same thing. It will be very helpful.


Well, I'm here to help. :)

I'm really posting all this for Soaring. I think that deep (way, way, way deep) down inside he would like to see more projects like this. If I document mine, maybe more people will get the urge to do something similar. :D:D

This thread is really just notes as I go along, I'll eventually make a website for it. I've already got a domain name registered and right now I'm still trying to pick out a content management system I like.

Have you figured out how you're going to run your fuel system? I spent more time on that than I did installing the motor!

3/8" steel line for the feed and 3/8" aluminum line for the return, both run under the passenger side of the car. A filter and then a low pressure electric pump at the tank, using the stock pickup tube and going to the 3/8". The tank has a drain so I could use that for the return. However, on this tank the drain is really exposed so I may pull out the sending unit and braze the return into it.

I'm considering mounting the surge tank under the hood (maybe in the corner under the passenger side hood hinge), using a design similar to this (http://www.geocities.com/hrayhouston/antisurgetank.html) but made out of metal. I have a friend who owns a machine shop so I may talk to him about making me one in aluminum. Alternatively, I could make it out of steel pipe (but it would be heavy) or maybe an aftermarket coolant overflow tank. I like the idea of reusing the donor fuel pump. I'll also reuse the donor fuel filter setup and put it after the surge tank.

I can appreciate the time you spent on your fuel system, it's the part of your site I've spent the most time reading. And I've spent a lot of time there. :D

I think Mustangs Plus has a sending unit with a return in it for a reasonable price. Anyway, cool project. It's stuff like this that interests me. I know a lot of guys don't like making mods like this but when you take a less desirable model that would probably be parted out and make something sweet, well, more power to ya. Keep it coming!
Craig

Check out this if you haven't already:

http://www.rosehillperformanceparts.com/H%20Tank%20info.htm

Glen's solution sounds like an example of where you're headed. The stock pump fits inside this custom built surge tank.

Today I got the throttle cable swapped over.

Lucky for me, the 69 already had a throttle cable setup. The hole in the firewall was the correct size and the old mounting bolt was in the correct position. The new cable had two mounting bolts. Maybe I'll put in another one, maybe not.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangnewthrottlecable3.jpg

I didn't get a picture of the unmodified stock accelerator pivot rod. Here's what it looks like now:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangnewthrottlecable4.jpg

I cut a slot in the top so the cable could pass through, flattened it out and drilled out the bottom of the hole. I used a dremel to make the rod end thinner, so that the green clip would snap into place and retain the cable to the rod.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangnewthrottlecable2.jpg

Here it is connected:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangnewthrottlecable1.jpg

I also had to adjust the angle of the pivot rod so that the pedal wasn't too high. This rod is made of pretty soft steel so it wasn't a problem.

ORIGINAL: tarafied1

I think Mustangs Plus has a sending unit with a return in it for a reasonable price. Anyway, cool project. It's stuff like this that interests me. I know a lot of guys don't like making mods like this but when you take a less desirable model that would probably be parted out and make something sweet, well, more power to ya. Keep it coming!
Craig


I've seen the aftermarket efi sending units but $100 seems a bit steep for a regular $29 sending unit with 6" of tubing soldered through it. However, I would buy one if they came with provision to mount an in-tank low pressure pump (if such a thing even exists).

I am interested in these kinds of projects because they don't come with instruction manuals. I like to do my own thing and see how it turns out. This particular project may be headed down a well traveled path, but there's still a lot of room for interpretation. Especially since so many of the write ups involve buying stuff from Windsor-Fox who is apparently out of business. Good thing we still have Ron Morris. :)

This coupe would have been great to fill in a lot of the parts on a 69 sportsroof shell. I think it will be even greater to see it on the road every day, out in weather that would have the sportsroof car safely in the garage. :D

Jeremy

ORIGINAL: JamesW

Check out this if you haven't already:

http://www.rosehillperformanceparts.com/H%20Tank%20info.htm

Glen's solution sounds like an example of where you're headed. The stock pump fits inside this custom built surge tank.



I hadn't seen that one before, thanks. It's interesting how these tanks have different names: surge tank, accumulator tank, swirl pot, header tank. It makes it difficult to see what everyone has done.

Jeremy

There's a couple of other sites where guys have taken a new gas tank and modified it to accept an later model mustang in tank fuel pump?Quite a bitof fabrication and welding. I'll dig those up if you're interested.

I went with the external high pressure pump more for ease of replacement than anything else. The BC Bronco's surge tank was (I thought) the easiest aftermarket solution.

I'm trying to avoid any real fabrication I can, I want to make this project easily repeatable by almost anyone. That will lead to some rather inelegant solutions but as long as it's safe and it works then I'm OK with that.

I was really impressed with the BC Broncos surge tank. It is a very clever and cost effective solution. It looks like you could build it yourself for about $25. But I want to stay with the Mustang 5.0 pump because it's readily available and easily upgradeable. Plus I already have one that works. What would be really cool is if someone made a surge tank that allowed you to reuse the donor pump assembly. Pull the fuel pump assembly out of the donor tank and put it into the surge tank just like it's a small fuel tank. That would let you reuse the donor wiring connector and the fuel pump would be mounted as it was designed to be mounted.

Right now I'm leaning towards building the surge tank out of steel pipe because it's so cheap. If it doesn't work out then I will probably go with the external high pressure pump and fuel filter surge tank. How much noise do your pumps make?

I have one other question for you. With your engine in the stock location and with the AFCO radiator, how much room is there between the water pump and the radiator core? From looking at your pics and looking at this car, I'm wondering if there will be enough room for the mechanical clutch fan.

Thanks,

Jeremy

http://www.midnightdsigns.com/Mustang/Radiator/Top.jpg

This is my old motor..but same deal. It's about enough room to slip a serpentine beltbetween when turned on it's side......

I made a mock radiator today out of foam to see what the clearance for the fan will be:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfantest1.jpg

The foam piece is 24"X19"X2 7/8". As you can see, there isn't enough room for a 3" radiator with this fan. The fan is touching the foam. I've looked through the Hayden catalog and there is a shorter fan clutch listed that will give another 1/4" of room. This is probably enough space for the radiator to fit, but it will still be very close.

For the record, the donor fan assembly has a depth of 3.5". There is a distance of approximately 6 3/8" from the water pump pulley surface to the plane of the radiator mount. I wonder if this distance varies across the classic Mustang model years.

So... I've got a few other options. Looks like it's time to do some more searching and reading to see how other people have handled this problem. I'm not willing to go with a radiator that is smaller and I want to keep the clutch fan.

Here is the donor shroud added to the mix. With the mock radiator the shroud was too close to the engine pulleys and the fan was too far inside it.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfantest2.jpg
Yes, the shroud is upside down. :)


It is unlikely I'll be able to use the donor shroud without modifications. Even if I go with the adjustable motor mounts and move the engine back 1.5", the fan will still be too far inside the shroud.

I bought the new fan clutch today. It is 1/4 inch shorter than the old one, so that worked out OK. The Hayden part number is 2737 and the application is a 90s Jeep something or other. $33 at Checker.

I also picked up a new fan because the donor fan is cracked. Dorman makes the fan, PN 620-112. $27 at Advance Auto.

Unfortunately, the new fan is thicker!

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfantest5.JPG

The new clutch and new fan fit even worse than the old assembly. Here's the new setup:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfantest3.jpg

I put the old ford fan on the new clutch and there is enough room for the fan to spin without hitting the foam:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfantest4.jpg

Looks like I can gain at least 1/2 inch of clearance with some moderate trimming of the radiator support. I'll give that a try next.

Just my opinion, but when the fan is that close I don't think the shroud is of much help. No time for the air to move around the blades when its that close. Its good finger protection though.

I'm at the fuel point too. I was really curious when I found this site! http://www.geocities.com/mstngmtt/Mustang/three.htm I can't get my hands on a cheap (read: disposable if it doesn't work) SN95 fuel pump and sending unit. Sounds like a great solution, but, I'm skeptical. #1, you think more people would have tried it, I'm most worried about the top mounting plate diameter. and #2, if all that works, wouldn't the sending unit use a different resistance? I'm going to phone some wreckers tomorrow.

ORIGINAL: 67 evil eleanor

Just my opinion, but when the fan is that close I don't think the shroud is of much help. No time for the air to move around the blades when its that close. Its good finger protection though.


I agree, a shroud on a fan that close probably doesn't do much. But with the fan that close it also limits the area of the radiator core that air is drawn through. I want to move the fan away from the radiator so that it pulls air through the entire core.


ORIGINAL: JohnnyK

I'm at the fuel point too. I was really curious when I found this site! http://www.geocities.com/mstngmtt/Mustang/three.htm I can't get my hands on a cheap (read: disposable if it doesn't work) SN95 fuel pump and sending unit. Sounds like a great solution, but, I'm skeptical. #1, you think more people would have tried it, I'm most worried about the top mounting plate diameter. and #2, if all that works, wouldn't the sending unit use a different resistance? I'm going to phone some wreckers tomorrow.


The problem with putting the high pressure pump in the stock tank is that the inlet of the pump may become uncovered under acceleration and cornering. You would have to keep the tank about 1/3 full at all times to keep the engine from stumbling due to lack of fuel pressure. There are ways to work around this that involve modifying or replacing the stock fuel tank, but they get expensive quick.

Do you have any pictures of your EFI swap? I'd love to see them.

I bit the bullet yesterday and ordered the adjustable motor mounts to make clearance for the fan. The donor shroud should work out.

I've decided on this radiator: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=SUM-380428

I'm also getting the el-cheapo shorty headers as suggested by JamesW.

I've already got a remote spin-on oil filter for the transmission. I'll also be ordering a cooler and thermostat for it.

In the past I've always used Holley red fuel pumps but this time I'm going to try a Carter P4070. It looks like it's easier to mount and it can't possibly be any louder than the Holley. If the Carter works out I'm going to convert both my Pontiac and Chevy to this pump.

I set the intake system on the engine to see how everything would fit. I'm probably going to get an aftermarket air filter because it's smaller and easier to mount. It will be a while before I'm ready to bolt the upper intake down, but it's a motivational picture anyway. :)

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustang302mockup1.JPG

ORIGINAL: jcomp


In the past I've always used Holley red fuel pumps but this time I'm going to try a Carter P4070. It looks like it's easier to mount and it can't possibly be any louder than the Holley. If the Carter works out I'm going to convert both my Pontiac and Chevy to this pump.


FYI, those fuel pumps are for carbureted engines, not EFI!

Good luck!
Jeff

Yea, you will need the clearance for the fan, I have seen fans set this close before, the results were not good. A radiator may actually bend in a little when it is met with wind resistance, I saw one with about a 1/4" or maybe even a 1/2" of clearancecome into contact with the fan.


Also, it is logical that a fan moving air to the rear of the car would flex toward the front to some degree..... I don't think I would set a mechanical fan closer than 1" to the radiator....

So how exactly is your fuel delivery system going to work? Surge tanks and double pumps seem like a real chore, there has to be a better way. Almost seems easier to cut the tank open and add baffles or something?!

ORIGINAL: JohnnyK

So how exactly is your fuel delivery system going to work? Surge tanks and double pumps seem like a real chore, there has to be a better way. Almost seems easier to cut the tank open and add baffles or something?!


I'm going the double pump with a surge tank route. I want to mount my donor EFI in-tank pump inside the surge tank and save the cost of having to buy an inline pump. I'm heading out to a scrap/surplus dealer tomorrow to see what I can find to build what I want. There are several different surge tanks available for purchase and using one of them would simplify matters. JamesW uses one that seems pretty common and is made from a spin-on fuel filter and a remote oil filter adapter and is sold by BC Broncos.

If you wanted the in-tank pump, Fuel Safe makes an in-tank 'surge tank collector':

http://www.fuelsafe-hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/4549_hdr_2_l.jpg

They probably offer an EFI-ready tank for the Mustang also. But the surge tank collector starts around $250 and goes up from there and that is for just the part. It still has to be installed, and it looks like it's intended for a tank where the pickup is installed from the top.

It's a problem that doesn't have an easy solution. The "best" way (EFI-ready tank) is the most expensive unless you can fabricate it yourself (I can't). The two pump/surge tank system is something that anyone can build themselves, is relatively inexpensive (you can get both pumps and the surge tank from BC Broncos for $235), and will do the job. It's just not as clean looking. :)

Hmm I can't seem to find this 'surge tank' on their site? So it's a mini fuel tank that mounts to a frame rail or something? No, it doesn't sound too clean.. :D I don't completely get how it works either.. if you had a low pressure pump in the tank (Or external, I guess) that sucks it slow enough that you wouldn't have slosh issues, then wouldn't the high pressure pump just drain the surge tank and you'd be back to square one, with an extra pump hooked up?

And my other dilemma is still, would an in tank pump have more fuel slosh problems (Just sticking an SN95 or Fox in tank pump into the stock fuel tank) then running an external fuel pump with the stock sending unit, or would it be identical?

Thanks for the ideas man!

nice progress, this should be a sticky. I'm gonna need this info some day!

ORIGINAL: tarafied1

nice progress, this should be a sticky. I'm gonna need this info some day!


Thanks. I think I'm going to take a few days off of the project... I ordered a lot of parts today and they should start showing up later in the week. I've spent FAR more time researching parts on this project than I thought I would. I think that's been the biggest challenge of this project so far: deciding, from all the many options, how to proceed. My puny brain is starting to hurt. :D


ORIGINAL: JohnnyK

Hmm I can't seem to find this 'surge tank' on their site? So it's a mini fuel tank that mounts to a frame rail or something? No, it doesn't sound too clean.. :D I don't completely get how it works either.. if you had a low pressure pump in the tank (Or external, I guess) that sucks it slow enough that you wouldn't have slosh issues, then wouldn't the high pressure pump just drain the surge tank and you'd be back to square one, with an extra pump hooked up?

And my other dilemma is still, would an in tank pump have more fuel slosh problems (Just sticking an SN95 or Fox in tank pump into the stock fuel tank) then running an external fuel pump with the stock sending unit, or would it be identical?

Thanks for the ideas man!



No problem, I like to talk this stuff through with other people.

The surge tank (it has many other names, too) acts like the float bowls of a carburetor. It is a small storage of fuel for the engine to run on when the main tank pickup is uncovered. Most people run the fuel return line from the engine to the surge tank so it won't be emptied as quickly when the low pressure pump is not feeding it. The low pressure pump, when it's running, is constantly filling the surge tank and the surge tank has a return to the main tank. A diagram here would help a lot:

http://sdsefi.com/fuelsys.gif

JamesW has an excellent explanation (and diagram) of how the two pump fuel system works: http://www.midnightdsigns.com/james/FuelSystem.htm
Here's the surge tank: http://bcbroncos.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=131_108&products_id=119
Here's another: http://www.rosehillperformanceparts.com/H%20Tank%20info.htm
Another: http://www.awildchild.com/accum1.htm
Another: http://www.geocities.com/hrayhouston/antisurgetank.html
http://toyotaperformance.com/surge_tank.htm
http://www.sr510.com/fuel.php
http://sdsefi.com/techsurge.htm
And I'm sure there are MANY more out there.

A low pressure pump inside the tank would work as well as an external pump, but I'm not sure such an animal exists. I wonder if one could use a high pressure pump to fill the surge tank. I guess it would work if it could handle always being free-flow.

Someone on another forum pointed out the Fuel Safe in-tank collector and Mustangs Unlimited carries it as part number ST100B. It's listed on page 91 of my catalog but there is no picture. It is designed to be placed inside a fuel tank. The ports on the bottom are one way and as the fuel sloshes around it will be trapped inside the collector. There are other varieties of this kind of thing out there, some with built-in high pressure pumps.

Man, that does sound messy/complicated.. ;) Might be the best option though. I ordered a 69 tank today just in case I decide to stick with only a high pressure in-tank (Or external) pump and no surge tank.. I'll just calibrate it so 1/4 is empty.. ;) But yeah, I mean, would using only an in-tank HIGH pressure pump be any worse than using only an external high pressure pump (Just one pump, no surge tanks) do you think?

I think an in-tank high pressure pump would work better than an external because, in general, electric fuel pumps are better at pushing fuel than pulling it out of the tank. I would ask around, though. I'm by no means an authority on the topic. I'm making it up as I go along. :D

Just thinking out loud here, but I wonder if a person could use an oil accumulator to make up for a loss of fuel system pressure. Those things hold a few quarts so they should have more than enough volume. Some EFI cars have a fuel accumulator from the factory, that might be worth researching. I've read that the DeLorean had one. :)

I'm beginning to think that the easiest route would be to use either an in-tank SN95 pump or external high-pressure pump, and weld some baffles into the tank.. the only problem I'd have with this is cutting into my brand new tank. So new, I ordered it 4 hours ago.. :D But seriously, it might actually be the easiest solution? The problem I see with the SN95 in-tank pump (Assuming the actual mating flange to the tank is the same) is the sending unit would not be calibrated for the same dimension of pump) so I'm thinking an external high pressure pump with baffles in teh tank might be best/cheapest/easiest?! Maybe not cheapest, I'm out of argon.. :D

Fuel cell foam?

The parts I ordered last week are starting to finally show up. I've got the headers in..

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangpheader1.JPG

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangdheader1.JPG

These fit much better than the stock 5.0 headers.. [8D]

The Carter low pressure fuel pump is mounted and the fuel return is soldered into the sending unit:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustanglpfuel1.JPG

I ran the output of the pump to the return port on the sending unit, put in about 8 gallons of gas, ran the pump for a while, and checked for leaks. None so far. I'm going to cap off the old fuel line and leave it in place.

The radiator came in today and I trimmed the radiator support. There is now enough room for the new (and wider) fan:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfantest6.JPG

The radiator is leaning to the left in the pic but it will be mounted more vertically.

Hopefully the subframe connectors will show up tomorrow so I can get those in and then I'll be ready to run the fuel lines. :D

Here's some pics of Isaac's 65 Gas tank mod to insert a later model fuel pump.

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_028

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_032

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_277

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_275

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_278

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_033

http://whittz.com/v-web/gallery/EFI66/Picture_066

That fan looks pretty damn close,,,,,, especially at the bottom...

ORIGINAL: jcomp

The parts I ordered last week are starting to finally show up. I've got the headers in..

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangpheader1.JPG

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangdheader1.JPG

These fit much better than the stock 5.0 headers.. [8D]

The Carter low pressure fuel pump is mounted and the fuel return is soldered into the sending unit:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustanglpfuel1.JPG

I ran the output of the pump to the return port on the sending unit, put in about 8 gallons of gas, ran the pump for a while, and checked for leaks. None so far. I'm going to cap off the old fuel line and leave it in place.

The radiator came in today and I trimmed the radiator support. There is now enough room for the new (and wider) fan:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfantest6.JPG

The radiator is leaning to the left in the pic but it will be mounted more vertically.

Hopefully the subframe connectors will show up tomorrow so I can get those in and then I'll be ready to run the fuel lines. :D

I've got the adjustable motor mounts installed. They got me a whopping 1/2" of additional clearance, plus the kit had missing hardware. The fan now has 3/4" clearance to the radiator at the closest point which still seems a bit close to me. Especially with a thin plastic fan. :D Now I'm leaning towards returning the fan and clutch and going with electrics. I'm REALLY not partial to electric fans, but I may still go that route. I'll mull it over while I'm on vacation next week.


The subframe connectors are also welded in. I went with the Tin Man connectors because they were cheap and heavy duty. They fit well but the prep work was a messy PITA. I'm glad that's over with and the car didn't catch on fire (very much). [8D]

Next on the agenda is to run the fuel lines, mount the radiator, get a driveshaft, and hook up the shifter. I wonder if I can adapt the donor cable shift parts to the 69 shifter. Stay tuned for more. :)

Has anyone tried using one of the Fox Mustang "cold air" kits on their EFI conversion? Putting the air filter in the wheelwell would free up some room under the hood but I wonder about clearance with the tire at full jounce, not to mention all the debris and water hazard.

When you mount your radiator permanently, make sure the top is leaned toward the engine a couple degrees. The reason for that instead of being perfectly vertical is the airflow is forced to run into the tubes on a crossflow radiator. It will help cooling SLIGHTLY.

ORIGINAL: petec

When you mount your radiator permanently, make sure the top is leaned toward the engine a couple degrees. The reason for that instead of being perfectly vertical is the airflow is forced to run into the tubes on a crossflow radiator. It will help cooling SLIGHTLY.

I didn't know that, cool (pun intended).

I like the progress, more pics!!!

Well, after much deliberation, I'm ditching the mechanical fan plan and going with an electric. There just isn't enough room. The radiator is against the frame, the oil pan is against the crossmember and there is still only about 4.5" of clearance between the radiator and the water pump. It MIGHT fit OK, but the electric fan WILL fit OK. So that's what I'm doing. :)

Here's the one I've got picked out: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=FLX%2D180&N=700+400226+315460+115&autoview=sku
I like this one because it will cover almost the entire core of the radiator and it draws 18 amps. I think the CFM ratings of electric fans are a bunch of hocus-pocus advertising BS, but it stands to reason that a fan that draws 18 amps at 13V will do more work and move more air than a fan that draws less current. Of course, this assumes that the fans are equally efficient. I'm shopping around to find this fan at a better price than Summit offers.

I'll be getting these collectors for the shorty headers: http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=HED%2D21127&FROM=MG The collectors that came with the headers were 2" and I'd rather go a little larger. Plus these have the O2 sensor bungs already installed.

I've been debating on what to do about rims and tires for over a year now. I've got a set of American Racing Daisy rims (http://www.roadsters.com/200S-14x7.jpg) but they are 14" and I'd rather go with 15" because tire availability is better. In this case "tire availability" also means "I already have some good tires from the donor car". So I'm thinking I'll go with a set of these:
http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/crr-397_w.jpg

until I upgrade the rims on my Pontiac. It has a set of 15" Cragar S/S rims that would look good on this Mustang.

I'm considering getting a valve body recalibration kit for the AOD from these guys: http://www.becontrols.com/products/aodcat.htm
Does anyone have any experience with this company?

WOW! I really enjoy reading your progress. Someday, I will do this conversion and thanks to you, JamesW, and others it shouldn't be too hard of a project. Keep the updates coming!

Yeah!!..let's do it... It's almost winter up there, don'tcha know. Perfect time to start this project!

Ya but I leave for school the 2nd and i'm 3.5 hrs away from home. The only time i would have is the month off for christmas. Even then it wouldnt be much because of trips i already have planned. And I'd really like to learn how to tune a carb'd engine before I learn EFI. Another reason I want to do it is because my older brother has a ton of experience with EFI, he has a 88 GT with quite a few mods. Someday though, you can count on me converting to the darkside.

Wow, whatta project.
May I point out, that the engine mounts arent the real limiting factor in for & aft movement of the engine. Engine mounts are side to side & up/down.
The tranny mount point has a larger influence. Notch the tranny mount, and slide the engine back,,, ohh maybe 1/2 in, or so??
This is such a cool project I, just had to through something in.:)

Thanks for all the encouragement from everyone. It's been hard to keep motivated and maintain a positive attitude while working outside under the blazing sun. To paraphrase old Bones McCoy: Dammit Jim, I'm a computer nerd, not a landscaper! [8D]

The AOD crossmember I'm using is slotted for adjustment so it's not stopping progress. I've got adjustable motor mounts also and they still have some adjustment left. What's stopping the engine from moving back any more is that the oil pan is hitting the crossmember. I suppose I could raise the engine and move it back a little bit more (the oil pan is sloped) but I wonder how high I could go before I start having hood clearance issues with the EFI upper intake.

Anyway, the adjustable motor mounts got me about 1/2" of clearance which is allowing me to fit the big honking electric fan I want. However, in hindsight, the fancy mounts were a waste of money since there are other fans I could be using that are less than 4" thick.

At the very least I can console myself that I did everything reasonably possible to keep the mechanical fan. Also when anyone asks why I didn't keep the donor fan I will be able to expound upon the subject with such depth that they will become bored and regret they asked. :D

I haven't done too much to the car in the past few weeks, but here's an update.

I've got my 4 new tires and wheels. The rims are Cragar Soft 8s, 4.25" backspace. The tires are BFG Traction T/As, 225/60/15. The weight difference between the new engine and old engine is so much that the front of the car sits over an inch higher and the new tires look a little small. Once I get the car drivable again, I'll start planning on what I need to do about it. Here's a pic of the front anyway:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangnewtires1.jpg

Chrome center caps and lug nuts haven't shown up yet. The look is different and I chose these rims because they were $37 each, but I'm liking the plain look they have. Back to basics.

I've also got the radiator and fan mounted (finally). It looks a little unorthodox but it holds the radiator securely and integrates with the shroud mount.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangradiatorandfan1.jpg

I'll probably do something else for the upper mount down the road, but this is good for now.

This is the general idea for the mounting of the trans cooler and trans filter:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangtranscooler1.jpg

Now that the radiator is mounted, I can move the engine forward some to get the oil pan off the crossmember. About 1/4 inch should do it and I've got the room to spare between the water pump and fan. Once the engine is in its final position I'll measure for the driveshaft and have a local company shorten the old one and install the AOD yoke.

I've got the Performance Automatic AOD shift linkage kit. I called them and they let me know that it will work with the donor mustang TV parts. They've even got a video on their site on how to install the kit. :D I've decided to wait on putting in the Baumann shift kit until after I've driven the car for a while. I did get a drain plug kit for the transmission pan, though. I'll be putting it in when I do the shift linkage. I hope it doesn't leak like the last one I did.

I worked on mounting the trans cooler and filter today. It's still not finished:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangcoolerline1.JPG

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangcoolerassembly1.JPG

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangcoolerassembly2.JPG

lookin good!

It's funny looking back. I remember asking the question about putting EFI in our classic mustangs. The post was removed and that stirred a bee's nest. That's when I recommended that JamesW be our moderator. Now that the old communist regime has fallen, look at all the great information we are able to talk about. This is a great thread and I have learned quite a bit. Keep this great thread alive.

Yeah, I don't pay those "keep it original" guys much mind. In fact, they helped motivate me to document what I'm doing to help others "ruin" their Mustangs also. :)

The shifter is connected and functional. The TV cable is connected at the transmission. The driveshaft is installed and the transmission cooler lines are completed.

The AOD shifter linage wasn't exactly a bolt-in affair. I had to bend the new trans linkage and the donor TV linkage for clearance. I also had to cut a few inches off and rebend the linkage rod. The linkage barely touches the body next to the transmission when it's in park. I've also checked out the VSS (in case I need it for the cruise control) and it clears the linkage. Oh, and I also made sure the detents inside the transmission matched the detents of the car's shifter.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangshift1.JPG

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangshift2.JPG

I was able to use the donor line to the trans filter, but it isn't exactly pretty. I had bend a piece of to splice in the return line and it's not exactly pretty either. [8D]

I wrapped the lines in pieces of hose wherever they were going to rub against something.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangcoolerassembly3.JPG

Here's the driveshaft, the old exhaust system, one of the subframe connectors, and my Dodge Dakota. [8D]

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangdriveshaft1.jpg

And finally, the car with the new rims and tires. I'm really liking the blacked out look of the wheels.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangsept07a.jpg

The car sat level with the 351 but sits high in the front with the 302.

interesting read, thanks for all the information.
it seems like you are now close to finishing, care to share what the price for this for those us interested in doing this topped out at??
im talking to my mechanic brother in law now to see if this is a project he wants to undertake!!!

Ihave read this thread and James W site extensively and not alotis mentioned about AC or Smog, my 68 does not have AC installed, do you know what i would have to do to get this to work w/ AC?
and some people are environmetally conscience and im not sure if California requires it, but also what would have to be done to run the emissions?

been checkin ebay and craiglist since reading this thread and there might be some good deals on parts cars, AOD or T5 transmission and 5.0 engines. One last question, in a donor car (mid 80s) was used could the rack and pinion or steering box also be transplanted into a classic mustang??

THANKS AGAIN
Chris

Now that the old communist regime has fallen, look at all the great information we are able to talk about. This is a great thread and I have learned quite a bit. Keep this great thread alive.

Yeah, I don't pay those "keep it original" guys much mind. In fact, they helped motivate me to document what I'm doing to help others "ruin" their Mustangs also.

your the two types of bastards that start that kind **** back up again, anytime you get rid of any type of member you lose info you might have needed or will need. before you start bashing, I am a restomod guy to, but i got along with "the communist regime" quiet well they helped me complete my project, so must not have been that bad.

Good work on the stang though, im impressed with it.

ORIGINAL: cxr

interesting read, thanks for all the information.
it seems like you are now close to finishing, care to share what the price for this for those us interested in doing this topped out at??
im talking to my mechanic brother in law now to see if this is a project he wants to undertake!!!

I have read this thread and James W site extensively and not alot is mentioned about AC or Smog, my 68 does not have AC installed, do you know what i would have to do to get this to work w/ AC?
and some people are environmetally conscience and im not sure if California requires it, but also what would have to be done to run the emissions?

been checkin ebay and craiglist since reading this thread and there might be some good deals on parts cars, AOD or T5 transmission and 5.0 engines. One last question, in a donor car (mid 80s) was used could the rack and pinion or steering box also be transplanted into a classic mustang??

THANKS AGAIN
Chris


Actually, I think I'm about half done at this point. I still need to do the wiring (what I expect to be the biggest part of the job) and the rest of the fuel system. I'm saving the wiring for last and am presently working on the fuel system.

I took the smog parts off because they provided no fuel economy or performance benefit and would have made the installation more complicated. Extra plumbing is just more work. Plus I'm not sure how effective the system would be without the catalytic converters installed and they definitely were not part of the plan. :)

After I get the car driving well, I'll start looking seriously at A/C. Around here, the hot weather is done for the year so it will be next spring before I get motivated for A/C again. However, I am considering this system: http://www.classicautoair.com/Mustang6970.asp I'll have to call them and see what they think I should do about the compressor, if I should stick with the donor-style compressor or not.

I haven't figured up a total, but my estimate so far is around $2800. This includes the new set of tires and rims, the donor car (minus what I made from parting it), and the parts I wasted money on (adjustable motor mounts). I'm still going to have to pay a muffler shop to tie the headers into the old exhaust system.

I'm not sure about the donor rack being reused, but I don't think it would be feasible. You might try doing a search of this forum for the specifics. I don't remember any right offhand. :)


USMCrebel: I appreciate your input. But... If you want to defend Glen's charming personality and tolerant ways, please do so in your own thread and not in mine where he posted a disparaging remark about my project. I'll say no more on the subject and ask that the moderators delete any replies on the subject of 'the old regime'. Let's stay on-topic here.

I did a little work on the surge tank over the weekend... here are a couple of pics:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangsurgetank2.jpg

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangsurgetank1.jpg

This is a mockup, the final tank will be an inch or so longer and not have any cardboard parts. :D I estimate the volume of the tank to be around 60 cubic inches, which is around a liter. I don't know the volume of the fuel pump and lines, so I don't know for sure how much fuel the tank will hold while in operation. I'll be mounting it in the back above the fuel tank. I have room under the hood (where the battery used to be) but decided against it. Not much room, too much heat, nowhere to put the secondary filter. Plus, I plan on installing a centrifugal supercharger at some point and don't want to find out that the surge tank is in the way.

The steel is from an old mailbox post I picked up at the thrift store for $1. I will probably be coating the inside of the tank to prevent rust but I haven't decided what to use yet. The pump and top part are from the donor Mustang. I want the pump/top assembly to be rigid so it will get some bracing. I'm thinking I'll hold the top down with a large washer screwed into the top of the tank, but I'm still working on that part. Oh, and the tank will have two fittings on the side. One for feed from the primary pump and one for return to the tank. The fittings on the top part are for high pressure to the engine and return from the engine.

I almost have my mechanic friend convinced to do this swap..
maybe James W can answer one more question since he is in Cali..
what do we do about California Emissions laws in California?
do we have to add catalytic convertors?
i think i read on JamesW page and this thread that all the smog equipment was removed?

Thanks again for the helpful post

This is an Awsome thread i just want to thank the hard work people do so others can learn im sure this will come in handy someday for me!

It is a great thread, i will be watching these type of thread mor closely.

ORIGINAL: cxr

maybe James W can answer one more question since he is in Cali..


Where did you get that I was in the land of Fruits and Nuts?....

I'm in Texas pardner....

My motor came with all the smog items removed and I had no reason to re-install. The smog setup wouldnt' be difficult, you'd just need to leave the pump, the lines, the canister, etc..and leave all the wires and sensors hooked up. I left AC off my car originally also, but will be going back to reinstall later. there's just one wire in the EFI circuit associated with the A/C...that's the one called WOT, which sends a signal to cut the compressor during wide open throttle condition.

James,
Could you make this a sticky, lots of good stuff here that could get buried.
Nice work Jcomp. Any idea if there is an AOD that would bolt to a 429/460? I know they might not hold up but I built mine for cruisin' and overdrive would be nice!

tarafield http://www.transmissionadapters.com/Ford%20429-460.htm .htm i believe its 695 bucks.jcomp whats your plans for the brakes and suspension

thanks!

.

Pics of the trunk battery setup...

Here's the overview. The vent is on the left, the ground point is on the right. The ground is a bolt I ran through the floor pan after I wire brushed the metal clean. It is coated with some fancy anti-corrosion compound (vaseline) and I also used the stuff inside all the crimped connections. I crimped all the terminal lug connections with a big honking crimping tool that looks like a pair of bolt cutters. The battery cables are 1ga. And, yes, that's the lid to a can of spray paint that I modified to cover the terminals on the remote battery disconnect. :D
http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangtrunkwiring1.jpg


http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangtrunkwiring2.jpg

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangtrunkwiring3.jpg

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangtrunkwiring4.jpg

The EEC, starter solenoid, a switched power fuse block, the relay that powers the block, and the in-line fuse for the relay. I built a simple bracket to mount it all and I put in a few extra ground points because I HATE looking for a clean ground point when I'm wiring something new into the car or testing voltages with my DMM. I put a yellow LED indicator light in one of the mounting holes of the fuse block that will light when the block is getting power. When I'm troubleshooting problems I'll be able to tell at a glance what's going on with it.

I flipped the EEC over so the wires would be routed down. I plan on mounting another fuse block (unswitched power), all the relays and some of the other devices for the EFI inside here also. There is still a lot of room. I want to mount as little of the electronics under the hood as possible. I'll be putting some shielding around the heater hoses that are right behind all this, in case they rupture. Maybe I'll replace the underdash rubber heater hoses with some hard copper tubing instead.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangwiring1.jpg

It started raining so I had to quit for the day, but here's a terrible picture of the hole I cut for the wiring harness. The hole dimensions are 2.6" X 3", I cut it out with a few applications of a bad-ass hole saw. The brown inside the hole is the original sound deadener. It's too bad I don't have the A/C parts yet, the kit I was looking at routes the heater hoses through the firewall in a different location near the blower motor. I could have cut around the holes and used that space to route the wiring through the firewall.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangwiring2.jpg

Why'd you put the battery on the driver's side?

Because the passenger's side was full of spare tire. :D

In regards to weight distribution (if that is why you ask), I don't think it's going to matter. The spare tire, real jack, and lug wrench are going to weigh at least as much as the battery. And once I get a limited-slip carrier installed, I wonder if it will even matter if the heavier weight is over the passenger rear tire.

The wiring is progressing... slowly.

All the wires are run that need to go from under the dash to the trunk. Speaker wires, fuel pump power, battery cable, cables for the amplifier, etc. It's a lot of wires.

I've connected power through a fusible link to the original harness (at the light switch) and everything original to the car works except the horn. Not sure if it worked before I started, though. The new starter solenoid is wired to the ignition switch and the neutral safety switch also works fine.

I built a hinged panel to hold some of the electronics:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangwiring7.jpg

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangwiring6.jpg

The front of the panel has a fuse panel and the 4 relays for the EFI with two spares for future projects. One may end up being needed for the electric cooling fan.
The rear has another fuse panel, the barometric pressure sensor and some more relays for powering accessories or whatever. Each fuse panel is the power source for the relays next to it and the fuse panel's power comes through a fusible link I scavenged out of the donor car harness. I'll probably replace the fusible links with Maxi fuses at some point. Fuses are a lot easier to change on the side of the road than a length of wire. :)

It's hard to see but the EVR (which controls vacuum to the EGR) is mounted to the right of everything under the dash.

There is a 10ga wire going from the battery side of the solenoid through a fusible link down to the console to supply power to some 12V power outlets I plan on putting in the ash tray. I'm hoping to fit three outlets in there.

I've made a lot of progress on the EFI wiring. Everything from the firewall forward is done for now but I still have to shorten a lot of wires on the underdash side. I am keeping the VSS and I have routed the two wires for it through the O2 sensor harness and up through the engine harness into the dash. I'll be using the VSS for the cruise control and maybe an aftermarket speedometer.

I made an interesting discovery concerning the speedometer cable. The cable off of the donor car will work with the speedometer on my 69. It clips in without modifications and will also work with the VSS (obviously). The donor cable is pretty trashed, though, it has a few burns in it from resting against the exhaust. I haven't compared the lengths yet but it might be the way to go if I don't end up with a fancy new electronic speedometer.

More to come later. I'd have more pics, but images of wiring aren't really all that exciting or informative. :D

Oh, and all that stuff fits just fine inside the dash. Like I mentioned earlier, there is a ton of room in there. I've even left space for A/C when I get it, but the passenger side vent may not have any ducting going to it. Good thing I'll always be in the other seat. [8D]

Very interesting project. I did one similar... put a 5.0 from an '88 Mustang into a '67 coupe. Used only the long block. Hung on all the original 289 accesssories. I put an old Carter AFB on it originally and it ran great. It was my commuter for a few years, then I parked it for a few years. Then when I needed a good carb to put on a '73 Stang to sell it, I used the AFB, thinking I would buy a new one later when I put the '67 back on the road.

Dumb move...! Now I'm getting it back on the road again. I bought a new Edelbrock replacement for the Carter, and it never ran right. Seemed to be a design problem. The choke mechanism would bind up on the shaft like the metal was too thin to handle the torque of the spring, and it would bend and jamb.

So I just rebuilt an autolite 4100 carb originally from a '66 convert 289 for it, but am having some trouble getting it tuned right. It runs great, no hesitation or flat spots, BUT has idle problems. Cannot seem to get the idle mixture right. Stand beside the car when idling and it'll burn up your throat and eyes. No smoke, just stink.

I called Pony Carburetors and Jon told me it's running lean. But wouldn't offer any info on how to tweak it, just "send it in"....! Before I go to that expense, I thought I'd try for some brain power on the web... :)

One thing that might be a clue is this.... I CANNOT adjust the idle RPM down low enough. Pull the idle speed screw all the way out, primary and secondary butterflies totally closed (far as I can tell), probably idles minimum of 1000 RPM (don't have tach). Another clue -- to get smooth idle, I need to set the idle screws about 3 turns out instead of the 1.5 turns specified in the rebuild instructions. That's probably due to the excess RPMs. So, somehow seems to be getting too much air.... Haven't been able to find any vaccuum leaks..... Could the PCV valve allow too much air....?

I wonder if the settings in the carb (like float levels, jets, etc) might need to be different from original since the 88 engine has roller cam.

Has anyone here messed with a 4100 on a 5.0.... have any ideas...?

Thanks....!

Very interesting jcomp. Ive learned alot ....

Keep up the good work!
-Hawkins

yep...been there....

http://midnightdsigns.com/Mustang/Motor/Launch%20010.jpg

..

This right here is the reason I'll never do the swap. I hate electrical!ORIGINAL: jcomp

Hopefully today I soldered the last wire splice in the engine harness. And, man, there were a bunch of them. I spent the better part of yesterday looking for wire terminals (that plug into the computer connector) so I could avoid having to do 20+ wire splices, but I couldn't find them locally. I didn't want to wait for them to show up from an internet order so I just proceeded without them. However, I would suggest that anyone who wants to modify a stock harness to fit their car should buy about 30 of the terminals (fordfuelinjection has them) to save time and also end up with a better harness without so many splices in it.

Here's a picture of the harness as of right now. Tonight I'll spend a few hours verifying the wiring with a schematic and my trusty DMM. Then it will be time to wrap it up and put it in the car. The red wire tie on the engine side of the harness marks the position of the 22K ohm resistor for the TFI circuit.
http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangwiring8.jpg

Having the entire harness out of the donor car was a big help. I was able to scrounge a lot of wire out of it so that I could keep the harness mostly correctly color coded. Also, all the extra connectors were handy. They come apart easily and I was able to reconfigure some of them for what I needed. Using these connectors I was able to build the harness so that it could be taken out of the car without having to cut any wires.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangwiring9.jpg

The green connector goes to the relay/fuse panel. The other two are for wiring that goes to somewhere else on the car like the instrument panel (for the check engine light and tach) or to the fuel pumps under the back of the car.


This is the harness for the oxygen sensors. I've also added the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) connector to it. I am running the two wires for it back through the engine harness using two previously unused pins on the round black 8-pin connector.

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangwiring10.jpg

Here is the whole system laid out:
http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangwiring11.jpg

There are still two unterminated wires in the engine harness (lowerish left). One is for the computer keep-alive power (KAPWR) and will go the fuse block by the computer and the other is for the TFI Start signal and will go to the starter solenoid.

Also notice that the harness includes the 2G alternator wiring (covered in big red heat shrink).

ORIGINAL: valley firearms
This right here is the reason I'll never do the swap. I hate electrical!


Actually, this has been my favorite part so far. :D




This morning I decided to add a power lead for the electric fan to the engine harness, so looks like it's getting unwrapped again today.

The wiring has taken me a lot of time to get worked out and I'm still not finished. I've been taking my time and taking a lot of notes. The way I see it, every extra hour I spend putting it together the right way will save me three hours down the road when it comes to troubleshooting.

I still have the lead on the original harness that connected to the solenoid under the hood. I'm thinking I'll use that and a relay to power the headlights and bypass the resistances of the original headlight circuitry.

I've given myself a crash course in spring-lock connectors, trying to figure out how to attach my 3/8" line to the fuel lines on the engine. I went to my favorite junkyard and looked through their entire Ford section and couldn't find a female springlock to 3/8" barb. They were all too small, even on the 5.8L trucks. Of course, there is an article on FFI that says as much but I was hoping it was wrong.

Here is a picture of what $5 will buy in the junkyard spring-lock world:

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangfuellines1.jpg

A few connector pairs and a spare set of engine mounted fuel lines.

I have a few options, I'm still working on it.

Even though I decided not to work on the car today, I threw together the surge tank. Total cost for it was about $7.

It's about the size of a soda can and will fit nicely under the back of the car above the e-brake cable. The hose connections all end nearly flush with the inside of the cap. Two connections at the top; for the lift pump and the return to the tank. Two connections at the bottom; for the feed to the high pressure pump and for the engine return.

Not very fancy or pretty but it will get the job done. Until I make friends with a good welder it will have to do. :D

http://www.denverpontiacs.com/miscpics/69mustangsurgetanknew1.jpg

Great work Jeremy.... that harness is looking sweet.

One suggestion - hold off wrapping and dressing the wiring harness until after you have installed it. Just ziptie it into shape and lay over the motor while you get it running. You may need to troubleshoot the harness. (ask me how I know)

how do you know?

30 pins for the computer? I had to solder about 6 new connections to the computer or so but thats because I added provisions for mass air and vss and some other things.. why did you need 30?

Also, whats the deal with this 22k resistor? I assume thats going to the distributor, but I didn't take the wrapping off that part of my harness. Anything I have to do with it?

ORIGINAL: JohnnyK

30 pins for the computer? I had to solder about 6 new connections to the computer or so but thats because I added provisions for mass air and vss and some other things.. why did you need 30?

Also, whats the deal with this 22k resistor? I assume thats going to the distributor, but I didn't take the wrapping off that part of my harness. Anything I have to do with it?



I didn't actually need 30 pins, but having them would have been nice and resulted in a better harness. I had to shorten or splice all but four wires on the ECM connector, and even some of the ones I left alone were still too long. 30 pins might even be to few; there are around 32 connections in my ECM connector. Did you use the aftermarket harness? I rebuilt the donor car harness to work with my car.

If you study the schematics at FFI, you'll see there is a 22K ohm resistor in the IDM wire to the TFI module. I only marked it in my harness in the extremely unlikely event I need to find it in the future. I'm guessing it's there to drop the voltage level of the tach signal to the level the ECM needs or to help protect the IDM input from voltage surges. But don't quote me on that. :)

JamesW: That sounds like the voice of experience. :) I do know one thing, I'm not going to push that firewall grommet into the opening until I'm sure everything is working. It's going to get some sealer on the backside and the wires are getting a good wrapping with F4 tape. When the hood is opened while it's raining, it pours water down onto the harness and connector.



I still haven't added the fan wire to the harness so part of it needs to come apart again. I'm also going to run some steel brake line through the connector to get the vacuum to and from the EVR.

I did some shopping last night for the fuel system plumbing. Right now I'm leaning towards using AN adapters at the fuel rail and running -6 AN braided stainless down to the bottom front of the shock tower. I'll have the aluminum lines connected to AN bulkheads down there and the hard lines will run back along the inside of the frame and subframe
connector. I'll have the electric inline high pressure pump right next to the surge tank and an inline 10 micron filter immediately after the pump, mounted to the subframe connector.

I've also decided to use braided stainless for the heater hose that runs right behind all the electronics. I still can't believe Ford designed the car that way, with the heater hose running through the firewall and another 12 inches of travel until it gets to the heater core. I wonder how many passengers have had their legs burned in a Mustang by hot coolant over the years. :eek:

Anyway, I've got some more parts to order today. [8D]

I pulled a tendon in my hand so progress on the Mustang has been stopped for about a month. But here's where I'm at:

Once again, I've changed plans for the surge tank. I couldn't find a good place to mount an inexpensive filter, so the pipe tank had to go.


This bracket will be mounted through the body right behind the fuel tank. After staring at the bottom of the car for hours I decided that there may be some merit in doing it like everyone else. :)

http://allhowtoarticles.com/img/wiki_up/69mustangfuelbracket1.jpg

Here's my version of the fuel filter surge tank:

http://allhowtoarticles.com/img/wiki_up/69mustangsurgetankfinal2.jpg

The copper pipe is 1/2" OD. I flared the end so it would be a press fit into the threaded tube then sealed it up with JB weld between the copper pipe and the threaded tube just in case. It isn't going to come apart on its own, that's for sure. :)

http://allhowtoarticles.com/img/wiki_up/69mustangsurgetankfinal3.jpg

I'll be replacing the brass T with an AN T fitting. The cost will be higher (but not by much, brass ain't cheap either) but the AN fitting will be more vibration resistant.

The oil filter adapter cost $22, the filter was $13, the AN T fitting is $15, and the 1/2" NPT to -6AN fittings were a total of $12.

My 1983 Chevy K5 diesel uses this sort of surge tank from the factory. It doesn't have the return plumbed into it (doesn't need it) but it does have an elongated pickup tube that allows the injection pump to pull fuel from the lower portion of the secondary spin-on fuel filter.


Also, I'm running -6AN braided stainless hose for pretty much the entire system. Bending hard line with one hand is hard to do. [>:]

For the surge tank, why 2 ins and 2 outs? I'm assuming your following this basic logic:

http://www.midnightdsigns.com/james/Fuel/Fuel_Diagram.jpg

The 2 AN fittings are your line in and line out, and the brass T is for your return line?

After looking at it today I'll probably move the T fitting to the other side of the filter assembly, but here's how I've got it planned...

I have the engine return, the supply from the lift pump, and the return to the main tank all essentially plumbed into the same point. That oil filter adapter has 2 "in" ports and 2 "out" ports. I've got one of the "out" ports plugged but I could use it if necessary to feed a second high pressure pump. I doubt that will ever happen with this car.

The AN fitting that has the opposite side of the filter adapter plugged is the high pressure pump supply.
The T fitting will have the return fuel going into the side of it, and the port on the T fitting facing up will be return to the tank. The remaining port (the AN fitting on the filter adapter facing the lift pump) will be incoming fuel from the tank.

My header tank is plumbed like jcomp's, return feeds into the headertank, with a dedicated return to the main tank. I dident trust the "T" to return enough fuel to keepthe header tank full.

ORIGINAL: Mr. Classic EFI

My header tank is plumbed like jcomp's, return feeds into the header tank, with a dedicated return to the main tank. I dident trust the "T" to return enough fuel to keep the header tank full.


I agree. I know there are a lot of them out there like that and they run great but I wanted a more positive control of the fuel flow. Plus, this way there isn't another hose going from the T fitting down to the filter assembly.

I had also considered building the surge tank out of AN hose. A three foot section of 3/4" ID hose would hold approximately a quart of fuel. The lower end of the hose would have been feeding the high pressure pump and there would have been a couple of T fittings at the top for the return, etc. It would have been very durable but also VERY expensive. -12AN hose itself isn't too bad but the $60 fittings (each) really drive the bill sky high. :)

Anybody ever run an EFI setup without a surge tank, and if so, what were the results? I know that the RMP setup doesn't use one and the Mustang's Plus writeup didn't mention one IIRC. FWIW, my Jeep doesn't have much of a sump in the tank (I've had it apart) and I've put it through some pretty severe offcamber and climbing situations and have never had a problem with starvation.

The reason I ask is that the fuel system is the last order of business for me to resolve before starting my swap.

Jeff

Just bumpin this for an update on progress:D

It's not my thread, but my EFI swap is done and working like a champ! I'm not using a surge tank, and so far, I have not encountered any problems. I don't think I've had the tank below 1/4 full, but I do have a 20 gallon tank.

just wondering if this was ever finished and running???

ORIGINAL: cxr

just wondering if this was ever finished and running???

me too!

I am doing an EEC-IV EFI swap in my 67. I have a 95 5.0.Am Using an Explorer Upper and lower intake. AODE. I guess I cheated a little. I bought the RMP complete fuel system, Painless 5.0 wiring. I work on autos all day for a living and wanted to make it a quicker swap once I get started. I am also using a Bauhman Trans controller. I like the AODE by not having to work with a TV cable. Plus I can control the shift quality and timing with a laptop.

Need some advice on installing an AOD behind a 5.0. I just bought a 91 AOD that's been sitting for 5 months. How do I service the torque convertor before installing the trans? pull it off and fill it? how much?

It's taken 9+ years, but my '66 Mustang coupe is FINALLY back on the road. Tired old 289 removed, 5.0L fuel injected engine put in. Got rid of the 40 year old C4 and put in a modern AOD transmission too.
It started in 1997, in North Carolina. Two weeks away from getting married, driving past a Chevrolet used car lot, I spotted a white 66 coupe. I had owned 65 Mustangs before, two of them. Test drove it, loved it. I said I'd buy it if they financed it. Didn't think they would, but they did. (I wouldn't do that part of the deal again, though!

Some of the things I had to figure out/come with way to make it work:

I used an external fuel pump, simple set up, no surge tank, or low pressure pump/high pressure combination.

Water pump…some pumps are clockwise rotation, some are counterclockwise. I had to think about my setup and get the right pump.

Wiring…I found a company that said they would make a harness for me. I had to send them a wiring harness from an early 1990’s Mustang and send it to them. So I had to get that off eBay (harness #1). Got it off eBay and sent the harness to the company. Never got part, so I was out that money. I decided that I would try to make the harness myself. I got harness #2 from eBay. Received it. After 3 months of messing with it, I finally determined that the wiring harness was from a Ford car, but not a Mustang. So I went to a local Mustang junkyard and got harness #3 from a 1992 Mustang. Bought a book, Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control that helped a lot with figuring out what was what.


Fuel pump…had to figure out where I was going to mount it. I decided to mount it just above the rear end gear housing. Then I had to run fuel lines to the front of the car.

Transmission…bought a 1990 Mercury Grand Marquis just for the AOD transmission. After I took the transmission out, I sold the car to a junkyard. Stupid me though…if I had done just a little bit of work/thought, I would have realized that I could have used a lot of parts off the Merc, and wouldn’t have gotten rid of it so soon.

Transmission mount…had to get a special bracket that would let me put a 1990’s transmission into the Mustang. The newer transmission is bigger than the 1966 one, and the special bracket makes more room.

Radiator…bought a new radiator, because the one in the Mustang, I had no idea how old it was.

Oil pan..had to use the 1966 oil pan on the 1993 engine because of the shape of the body of the Mustang itself.

Timing chain cover…didn’t have to, but I used the 1966 timing chain cover on the 1993 engine.

Interior…had to cut a hole in the firewall and figure out where to mount the computer inside the car behind the dashboard. ‘Measure twice, cut once.’

Transmission oil cooler…added a transmission cooler to the car and mounted it in front of the radiator.

Wiring…several things:

First and most important, I found a guy on the internet that tirelessly answered all my questions. Him, and several websites such as SBFtech.com and AllFordMustangs.com were tremendous help with this project.

-The computer needs a good source of 12v power, so I added a relay what would send 12v to the computer when I turned the key.

-This relay that turns the computer on, also powers a relay to turn the fuel pump on. I did not want to do it that way, so I added a separate relay to turn the fuel pump on.

-The 1992 harness only had to connect to the 1966 harness in about 4 or 5 places. When you turn the key to ‘on,’ the computer has to get power, the fuel pump has to get power, the 1992 coil gets power, and the distributor gets power. Then, when you turn the key to ‘start,’ the distributor has to know that you are trying to start the car. If the distributor does not get another, separate source of 12v when ‘cranking,’ the engine will not start. However, stick shift cars can start without this extra 12v source of power. So I had to add a wire that told the distributor that the car was trying to start.

-At this point, I could turn the key, and the fuel pump would come on. The actual turning of the starter was accomplished with the 1966 original wiring.

-The car would not start. I was not sure that the plugs were firing, so I bought a spark tester, and found out that the plugs were firing intermittently. With the help of the net, I found out that the plugs will not fire properly if the computer does not know that the fuel pump is on. So I put in a wire to tell the computer that the fuel pump was running.

-Spark plugs would still not fire correctly, still intermittent operation. Found a different schematic for my wiring, found out there were three grounds for my harness, where I had thought there was only one. I grounded the other wires.

-Engine would crank, fuel pump is on, spark plugs sparking, engine would not start. I would crank the engine while rotating the distributor, hoping that my timing was off, and that’s why my Mustang wouldn’t start. Wrong.

-After a few days of this, I did some more reading, I found out that I had put my distributor in the engine incorrectly. In older cars, you could rotate the distributor and eventually the timing would be correct and the engine would run; you could continue to rotate the distributor and the engine would smooth out. In newer autos, the distributor had to be put in more accurately, one tooth off and the engine will not start. That’s what I had done, put the distributor in one tooth off. On March 26th, 2:15 pm, I pulled the distributor, moved it one tooth over, and put it back in. What do you know, the engine started.


That’s about it. I had to buy a special cable to make the shifter work, and a special cable to make the gas pedal work.
Update: Drove it to work finally, last Thursday. Master cylinder gave out on the way home...about the only part in the driveline that hasn't been replaced. That's okay...new kit to convert front drums to discs is being ordered this week!

local://upfiles/30391/AAA6BFBB31E24D8DA3E4F15322174655.jpg

great story

ok so Im doing the EFI swap and I have a ton of questions I'll be asking i know but the one that really concerns me right now that no one has ever posted on the internet that i can find is How do you connect the computer and harness of the EFI to the gauges of the stang so it will read correctly? I know how to get the speed-o to work but what about gas, oil, alt, water temp, tach, etc.? How do you get it to connect so it will illuminate the gauges? Do you use the stock harness for mostly stuff not engine related such as the lights, a/c, and heat?

Hey Vine. On my 66, I used the original 66 wiring and gauges. The gas gauge used the 66 wiring, as does the oil pressure.I put a 130 amp alternator in, and bought a wiring adaptor from Ron Morris specifically for this, so the original alt gauge remains the same. I know there are cheaper ways to put a modern alt on your car, but that's what I did. The water temp, I spliced the 66 water temp gauge to the EFI water temp wire, so the temp sensor in the intake manifold feeds both the EFI computer, and the dash gauge. As far as the tach, there is a wire in my 1992 harness that feeds the tach, and I use that wire when I want to know RPM, and I plan to get a tach eventually. In other words, most of the gauges on my dash continue to use the 66 wiring, and the EFI has it's own sensors/wiring, with the exception of water temp, I spliced those together.

Exactly....it's never posted because you use the original wiring from the vehicle.

ok, well that helps, thanks. i know I'll have more ques as i dive into this little undertaking. i have an engine and trans lined up but i haven't picked it up yet but plan to soon.