Hi guys, I want to go for a set of cams for NA application ( 05 GT Manual ) I sow Comp Cams Stage 3 and Crane Cams Stage 3 Crane gives you more rpm 6200 while comp 6000 rpm
Please give me some advices I want the guys who tried it before !
Posts: 1845
Joined: 8/17/2006 From: Los Angeles Ca Status: offline
I think you're confusing maximum rpms for "peak" power. The stock cams produce peak power around 5700rpm, the cams you listed are producing peak power at the rpms numbers you've stated. The stock motor can rev to 6500+rpms with a tune(to over ride the stock preset rpm limiter). Of course to build N/A power more rpms are a necessity, are you gonna keep everything else stock? With the better cams you'll need better breathing heads, CAI/tune and LT's to maximize it all, perhaps even a better breathing intake manifold as well(FAST, a division of Comp Cams will be releasing a better flowing intake soon). Maybe you've already figured this out, but I'm just trying to help out Oh, on the cam selection, if you want similar to stock idle and behavior the Comp piece is what I'd use just for a mild boost in performance, but the Crane piece will help build a higher hp N/A engine. Although if you want a significant boost in hp you'll need to have custom grind cams made(but that's another tuning nightmare possibility). Good luck
I think you're confusing maximum rpms for "peak" power. The stock cams produce peak power around 5700rpm, the cams you listed are producing peak power at the rpms numbers you've stated. The stock motor can rev to 6500+rpms with a tune(to over ride the stock preset rpm limiter). Of course to build N/A power more rpms are a necessity, are you gonna keep everything else stock? With the better cams you'll need better breathing heads, CAI/tune and LT's to maximize it all, perhaps even a better breathing intake manifold as well(FAST, a division of Comp Cams will be releasing a better flowing intake soon). Maybe you've already figured this out, but I'm just trying to help out Oh, on the cam selection, if you want similar to stock idle and behavior the Comp piece is what I'd use just for a mild boost in performance, but the Crane piece will help build a higher hp N/A engine. Although if you want a significant boost in hp you'll need to have custom grind cams made(but that's another tuning nightmare possibility). Good luck
+1, I have CompCams Stage 3 and my peak is right around 6000(I have to look at my dyno sheet) but I don't start loosing power until about 6500!
what are your goals for this car specifically? IMO I would stay away from cams for the time being until the new regrinds are out. The ones that are out there are pathethic, I would only do them if you are looking to stay N/A.
I believe this guy more than the other linked post because the other guy is missing the very items that he needs to maximize the output of the cams he installed. He needs to install a larger MAF housing and intake tube, a larger throttle body and CMCV delete plates. These items were proven to increase intake breathing which is what is holding back his engine output probably at least 15-20RWHP. Don't be misled by incomplete testing of cams with an intake tract that is not good enough to let the cams perform to their best.
HTH!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
Yah lets believe the guy that is trying to sell you cams on his article. It can't be atleast 5% biased right? He even says on the review that they are very mild and they should be named stage 1. Just open any 5.0 mustangs and fast fords and see how many of the big guys running 500+rwhp on a s197 are running. Just look to the end of every article where it states camshafts - STOCK.
Yah lets believe the guy that is trying to sell you cams on his article. It can't be atleast 5% biased right? He even says on the review that they are very mild and they should be named stage 1. Just open any 5.0 mustangs and fast fords and see how many of the big guys running 500+rwhp on a s197 are running. Just look to the end of every article where it states camshafts - STOCK.
Andrew
Hi Andrew,
You just don't understand any of this stuff do you. O.K. don't believe him if you don't want to I don't care and nobody else cares either. Why not ask some of the people that have done ALL of the bolt-ons and then added the Comp Cams stage 3 sticks, beehives and retainers what they got? I'm pretty sure that they can't all be lying about it. But the fact is that if you are not going to supercharge your intake you will be leaving at least 40bhp on the table without cams no if's and's or but's.
Those "big guys" with 500+rwhp are all running blowers and there is no real need to install cams because they have not exhausted all of the power potential of the blower, fuel and ignition systems yet and they are all afraid of blowing up their bottom ends. IMO 500+rwhp is not that big a deal. If a they had a serious race level bottom end they would not be making just 500rwhp. The 4.6l with the right combination should be able to make in excess of 800rwhp and still be managable on the street. Once they do exhaust the possibilties of the blower, fuel system and ignition systems just like on all other cars with blowers, cams will be the way to make more power than the other guy.
If your engine is going to be run N/A cams are the key to making 400bhp out of these little 4.6l motors.
Cheers!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
like i said: "what are your goals for this car specifically? IMO I would stay away from cams for the time being until the new regrinds are out. The ones that are out there are pathethic, I would only do them if you are looking to stay N/A." might aswell ask livernois motor sports why they are also running the stock cams on the 700+hp stang. Like I have said on all the other posts get some actually experience on this 4.6 3valve before you keep posting. Just ask around call livernois, ask ford fan dude, ask spyder etc etc.
I have a full exhaust sys in my car with a JLT CAI and SCT Xcal2 tuned by JMS I sow that some of you guys like Crane due to higher lift is it right I want the max NA power I will not go for heads right now ! Does the Tq converter is really very important if my applications is not for drag it's street performance
< Message edited by a_Alsebaei -- 5/22/2007 2:55:57 PM >
Hi guys, I want to go for a set of cams for NA application ( 05 GT Manual ) I sow Comp Cams Stage 3 and Crane Cams Stage 3 Crane gives you more rpm 6200 while comp 6000 rpm
Please give me some advices I want the guys who tried it before !
Thank you all
Where are you located? I'm in SoCal and the best guy I've met is Adam at ST Motorsports. There are other very good tuners in the L.A. area but Adam has several very serious racers he is building and tuning for, some are running on the street and some are running both street and strip with automatics that have been built and reprogrammed to work well with their combinations. Some of these guys are supercharged and some are still N/A. Most of the blower guys are staying in the 500-800+RWHP range on the street and most also needed to have more than one converter built before Adam was happy with the way they worked with the engine. But a Blower engine needs a very different converter than a N/A motor does dues to the way power is delivered across the RPM range of the engine. A small multi-valve motor like the 3-valve 4.6l in the S197GT's will need a pretty loose converter for the strip though on the street there are limits due to drivability. Ask around, find a local Mustang car club or local group of car guys and ask who they like and go to for this type of work.
Comp Cams released their cams first so there are more people using them at the moment. I'm sure that Crane's grinds are just as good but we won't know until more folks have installed, tested and documented their results. The RPM range you mention is dependent on the cam timing, more RPM makes more power but a street car can not spend as much time at upper RPM ranges which is where smaller engines with bigger cams tend to make their best power. With an automatic you need to be careful that your cams, rear gear ratios and torque converter stall speed matches up well with your street/strip use. There have been a lot of problems with automatics in the S197GT's largely because the S197GT automatic transmission is new and different and has different electronic controls. Whatever you do you need to find a good local engine builder/tuner who is very knowledgeable about programming not only the ECU for engine management (engine tuning), but also knows how to regulate the automatic transmission's various internal valve pressures and clutch/band pressures during shifting or you can end up with a damaged automatic transmission.
Just be aware that to get the most out of any cam on the S197 GT's small 3-valve motor you need to have done ALL of the bolt-on parts on the intake side and at least headers on the output side of the heads. Otherwise the power gained from the cams will look low. This is not the fault of the cams but the fact that the 3-valve heads and manifold are already capable of flowing so much air that the intake tract plumbing is more of a problem than the heads and manifold are. If you do not remove these restrictions before installing the new cams the resulting power increase will not be as good as the cam profiles might suggest. Anything you can do to increase air volume and velocity through the intake and exhaust plumbing will be paid back in spades after the cams are installed.
Cheers!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
Regarding headers, I assume longtubes would be best, right? The only problem I see for the daily driver crowd is the whole catless o/r exhaust systems and emissions. Are the long tubes w/ high flow cats any good? I've read a few times that the stock cats flow very well though... Confusing.
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2007 Black GT Premium, Charcoal leather interior w/ IUP, & Sirius radio
Regarding headers, I assume longtubes would be best, right? The only problem I see for the daily driver crowd is the whole catless o/r exhaust systems and emissions. Are the long tubes w/ high flow cats any good? I've read a few times that the stock cats flow very well though... Confusing.
Hi CaptRestless,
The results you see differ widely and as usual the results are heavily dependent on what other bolt-ons like CAI kit, handheld tuner etc. were installed first. Some people installed long tube headers and O/R pipe of some sort as their first modification and surprisingly got only so-so results leading people to think that there is not a lot to be had by installing heades and high-flow cats and mufflers. A lot of people installed a CAI kit and a tune first and then installed a set of long tubes and O/R pipe and saw larger power gains. This is because just like the heads the exhaust system was pretty well designed for the stock exhaust flow and the exhaust system at the time was not the bottleneck in airflow. Once the intake tract was freed up the exhaust started to be come more important so people saw better power gains. You have to consider the entire system and the exhaust side as Ford shipped the S197GT's was stronger than the intake side of the heads.
Now my approach was to consider the intake system as the first priority and exhaust system second. I'm getting nearly the same power (within 5RWHP), out of my car with JBA shorty headers and MagnaFlow Tru-X Pipe with OBDII compliant high-flow cats as most of the local guys with the same modifications on the SAME dyno but running a good set of long tube headers and O/R H/X pipes in place of the JBA shortys and catted X-pipe. The funny thing is that most of these folks are running a "custom" tune from well known shops like Bama, Evo or Brenspeed etc. and the local tuner but I'm just running off of the latest canned Steeda specific Predator tune which is a year old at this point. I don't think that the difference between a long tube header and O/R H-pipe system and a short tube header and good high-flow catted X-pipe amounts to all that much or my numbers would be much lower but instead they are almost within the margin of error for the dyno. Granted I installed litterally all of the bolt-ons there are to install out in my garage but the dyno numbers seem to say that shorty headers when combined with the right cats and X-pipe are nearly equal to a long tube system. The other thing that the dyno numbers could be saying is that the intake and heads are maxed out and that we can't see the difference between long tubes and short tubes unless we improve the volume of gasses being pumped out of the engine. For that we need cams as there is nothing else to bolt-on to the motor and porting the heads will not make much difference at this stage of the game as some of the locals have already found out after spending $3,000 on a good P&P job, reinstallation of the heads and then custom dyno tuning on the rollers for 15RWHP! Cams are the way to go at this point for me.
Steeda CAI kit w/90mm MAF housing and upgraded to Steeda's high-flow intake tube BBK 62mm throttle body FRPP CMCV delete plates JBA shorty headers Ti ceramic MagnaFlow Tru-X Pipe w/OBDII compliant high-flow cats FRPP M-5230-GTA axle back mufflers Meziere electric water pump Steeda part numbered Diablo Predator tuner w/r26 firmware and canned 91 ocane tune
316RWHP SAE correction method
Cheers!
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 5/23/2007 11:01:23 AM >
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
My Stang is running 311 RWHP and 328 RWTQ with stock exhaust according to the dyno at JBA. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think you can change cats here in CA. If this is true then the only C.A.R.B. legal option is shortys, is it not? I did the Steeda CAI with SCT tune, UDP's and the CMCV delete and got the numbers quoted above. Better yet I get 80% of peak torque from 1900 rpms through to 6500 rpms, although I shift at 6000 rmps (works real well for a street application). Anyway, my opinion is that aftermarket exahaust does not give you the best bang for the buck on a stock motor and I agree intake mods should be done first.
As for those guys with 500 RWHP on powdered rods, watch out, it is only a matter of time.
Best Regards
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07 GT M5, Eibach pro kit, FRPP dampers, Steeda [F/sway bar w/braces, R/sway bar w/links, Adj STB, Adj PB, HD PB brace, UCA, CAI, HF inlet, CMCV's, UDP's], CHE K-Brace w/TLMs, BMR LCA's & LCA Relo brkts, FRPP 4.10's, 255/45/18's, Hawk, 311 RWHP, 328 RWTQ
My Stang is running 311 RWHP and 328 RWTQ with stock exhaust according to the dyno at JBA. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think you can change cats here in CA. If this is true then the only C.A.R.B. legal option is shortys, is it not? I did the Steeda CAI with SCT tune, UDP's and the CMCV delete and got the numbers quoted above. Better yet I get 80% of peak torque from 1900 rpms through to 6500 rpms, although I shift at 6000 rmps (works real well for a street application). Anyway, my opinion is that aftermarket exahaust does not give you the best bang for the buck on a stock motor and I agree intake mods should be done first.
As for those guys with 500 RWHP on powdered rods, watch out, it is only a matter of time.
Best Regards
Hi dseid2,
My experience with JBA's dyno is that they have a slightly different brand of dyno and their numbers read a bit higher than the average in ground DynoJet using SAE correction and level 5 smoothing. But that really doesn't matter much if you are using it as a tuning tool.
Well technically you cannot change the cats or their location in the exhaust system. You CAN change the cats out if they are "damaged" or have failed! So the only California legal header design must be a short tube design by definition which is why JBA shortys are short tubes and CARB exempt. So AFAIK JBA shortys are the only California legal headers on the market that are CARB certified and have an EO number.
Yup, bang for the buck you cannot beat the intake mods first. But eventually you will run out of intake bolt-ons to install like I did long ago. LOL! I see no good reason to build a high boost blower motor on the stock bottom-end as that's just looking for expensive trouble. I also prefer the very smooth linear power and throttle delivery of a N/A/ motor better than a blower motor for canyon and track running. There is also the issue of longevity and emissions of an engine that is breathing with a blower, they just don't last as long.
Cheers!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
Guys you are talking about something far than my case !!!!! Which cam I go for Crane or Comp Stage 3 or 4 Also my frined want to install a cams set in his 07 GT auto but he dont want to change on the Tq converter so is it really required for stage 3and 4 Just tell me I go for comp or crane which is strongest for NA
< Message edited by a_Alsebaei -- 5/23/2007 9:13:08 PM >
Printable Version
Comp Cams Stage 3 Vrs. Crane Cams Stage 3 - 
RE: Comp Cams Stage 3 Vrs. Crane Cams Stage 3 - 
