do cams react differently depending on what type of mods you have on the car? would the cams out right now such as crane or comp be good if combined with an after market torque converter...???
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2006 Black in Black all on Black Automatic GT 12.82 at 107 mph on street tires...
As I said mods are : LT headers, off road X pipe, Cat back, JLT CAI, Underdrive pulleys Is the T.Body required w/ cams ?? Can I go for stage 3 or 4 w/o installing a Tq converter my application will be street high speed not drag Which one do you prefer crane or comp that can gain more RWHP
As I said mods are : LT headers, off road X pipe, Cat back, JLT CAI, Underdrive pulleys Is the T.Body required w/ cams ?? Can I go for stage 3 or 4 w/o installing a Tq converter my application will be street high speed not drag Which one do you prefer crane or comp that can gain more RWHP
THANK YOU
You need a 90mm+ MAF housing with huge intake tubing and a tune to match, a 62mm throttle body and CMCV delete plates and 3.73 or 4.10 gears to take full advantage of any cam install on your car. I would also suggest a stage 1 or stage 2 cam for your automatic transmission car even if you replace the converter with a looser converter. IMO the automatic in the S197GT drives too nice to mess up with a loose converter.
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
What about the cams in the Parnelli Jones? They are using a different cam with P&P heads and are getting 400hp N/A...
How can aftermarket cams be crap?
Hi CaptRestless,
The Saleen PJ Mustang engine mods are actually pretty minor. Saleen disassembles the motor to hone the bores so they are parallel, install a forged stroker crank. forged pistons, mild Comp Cams with upgraded springs and steel retainers, install a set of CMCV plates and reflash the ECU with altered calibrations for the larger 98mm MAF housing, UD pulleys. Everything else on and in the engine is stock from the oil pump to the igntion coils and cast exhaust manifolds.
The stock 3-valve heads are regular GT production heads taken off the stock motors as they are driven into the shop. All the Saleen does is a quick hand grind to cleanup around the valves but only if needed, they are not ported, they are not port matched and they are not polished in any way and the only non-stock parts in the heads are the cams, steel retainers and springs. The reason for the lack of doing any port work is that head work does not produce any more power and can hurt mid-range torque and throtle response in a street 3-valve motor.
That is a very conservative 400bhp on a fully dressed and emissions certified motor. Very impressive numbers when you consider the fact that 4-valve Cobras were only rated 320bhp. Imagine what a larger throttle body, headers, high-flow catted X-pipe, Meziere electric water pump and a bit of fine tuning could produce. There is probably at least another 15-20+RWHP in the engine.
Cheers!
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 5/29/2007 1:31:16 PM >
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
You do need to get lower gear ratios, probably 3.73 or 4.10. People say you NEED a torque converter for the cams to operate. This isn't true because the cams will work. They just wont work to their full potential, which from what I have seen and heard from others, isn't a lot. I do agree with the part where you need more mods on the car to take full advantage of the cams... There is a lot more work involed than just cams and converter...
F1... explain more about why the stock automatic is better than when hooked up to an aftermarket torque converter...? I was looking into buying a new torque converter for the car (I have an auto)....
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2006 Black in Black all on Black Automatic GT 12.82 at 107 mph on street tires...
You do need to get lower gear ratios, probably 3.73 or 4.10. People say you NEED a torque converter for the cams to operate. This isn't true because the cams will work. They just wont work to their full potential, which from what I have seen and heard from others, isn't a lot. I do agree with the part where you need more mods on the car to take full advantage of the cams... There is a lot more work involed than just cams and converter...
F1... explain more about why the stock automatic is better than when hooked up to an aftermarket torque converter...? I was looking into buying a new torque converter for the car (I have an auto)....
Hi tonkpils,
As you say, an engine with hotter cams doesn't require gears to work, the cams produce power no matter what your rear axle ratio is. The advantage to installing a lower rear axle gear ratio is that you get more torque multiplication which helps an engine with cams or a higher RPM power band to launch more quickly from a standstill. Around town or on the highway they also work no matter what transmission gear ratio you are in to increase your torque multiplication which buys you harder acceleration.
The higher stall speed of an after market converter allows the engine to start closer to the point where the engine makes power on a launch which of course lowers your E.T.'s. A looser converter with a well chosen stall speed helps engines with a higher RPM power band to get into the sweet part of the power band sooner than a tighter converter can. But on the street I've always found loose converters less pleasant to drive because of the non-linear way the engine speed comes up before the car moves or accelerates as you go on and off the throttle say in a turn. For some folks this feeling is O.K. but for me it makes me feel I have less control over the car on the street. Of course on the drag strip a higher stall converter is absolutely the best way to go for a cammed or high RPM power band engine.
A lot of serious racers are using Comp Cams new profiles and they work very well on engines that are breathing well already. But cams won't help you much if there is some other restriction to airflow that artificially limit the potential of the cam's improved valve timing and profiles. Think of it in different terms, if you had a tune that was well optimized for 87 octane and the ignition timing used old school hard coded look up tables (as many engine management systems still do), filling the tank with 93 octane fuel would not improve your engine performance. The limit in this example to making more power is a pre-existing limitation in the ECU's programming, not any fault of the fuel used. This is the same problem almost any engine modification will have, there may be an upstream or downstream issue which is limiting the ability of the new part to fulfill their full potential power production.
Cams swaps to more aggressive profiles and cam timings have been working for as long as engines have used cams to control valve events. There is nothing about the S197GT 3-valve engine that has changed this, not even the integrated VVT. The new cams available for the 3-valve engine clearly show there is potential in the cam profiles and timing to produce plenty of additional power but like so many other new engines the factory has already been probing the limits of th engine's capabilities and it is getting harder to find the high levels of power that the factory used to leave on the table. All you have to do is look a the trend in specific output per displacement of stock domestic engines to see the factory engines are fast approaching the same output levels as the European and Japanese. But what they have always used to compensate for our larger engines is higher RPM capability.
Cheers!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
F1, do you think a tune from B ama would be enough to wake up the auto? I havent gotten my car back from the shop. It is tuned and the last part is going to be installed tomarow.
F1, do you think a tune from B ama would be enough to wake up the auto? I havent gotten my car back from the shop. It is tuned and the last part is going to be installed tomarow.
Hi tonkpils,
Personally I think the autos benifit more overall from a good tune than a manual because a good tuner will tweak the transmission pressures making the car shift better on the track and on the street. The stock auto trans is pretty good driving on the street though and it would be a shame to mess it up. You might want to ask about a drag strip only tune with improved shifting that you use only at the track. I know it can be done because I've seen several S197GT auto's that Adam at ST has done tunes just for the track but I don't know if Doug has anything like this or not.
Cheers!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
For you, go either with crane 1 or 2, or comp 2 or 3...the upper stages of cranes are aimed at very modified engines, and with a 2 or up, you WILL have to upgrade your convertor. I myself plan on a forged 302 stroker, so I am probably goign stage 2 or 3 crane, and I trust the name...unless the crowers kick ass. Our cams dont see the gains of LSx's, so its hard to compare, overcamming your car can be harmful, and annoying, as someone on another forum put on stage 4 cranes, and it kept dying on them at a redlight without rpms at 900-1100... Just a word of advice, cams arent go big or go home, they are go smart, or go get fixed.
What about the cams in the Parnelli Jones? They are using a different cam with P&P heads and are getting 400hp N/A...
How can aftermarket cams be crap?
If I am not mistaken the Parnelli Jones mustang has been punched out to a 302. Increase in displaccement, new heads, new cams = 400hp.
400hp @ the flywheel = around 352 at the wheel give or take. Not really that impressive. Guys I know all of you read all the magazines and such just look for how many of the mustangs they feature 650+ have any cams on them. The cams that are out there are very mild and just slight variations of the stock one. Ford did a really good job on the cams for our cars; point end of story.
Guys you are talking about something far than my case !!!!! Which cam I go for Crane or Comp Stage 3 or 4 Also my frined want to install a cams set in his 07 GT auto but he dont want to change on the Tq converter so is it really required for stage 3and 4 Just tell me I go for comp or crane which is strongest for NA
A_alsebaei just go with stage 3 or 4's and when you install them be sure totell us your thoughts about it and experience and then calculate the total cost and then divide that with the horsepower and then tell me if you think it was worth it. I just love it how people with no experience with cams on this engines recommend them like hot cakes because of the info they read on the websites that are trying to sell them a pair.
Andrew
< Message edited by androdz -- 6/1/2007 4:30:53 PM >
ORIGINAL: a_Alsebaei come'on guys you are changing my question ??????
My question is do I go for Stage 3 Comp cams or Stage 3 Crane cams ??? Crane got higher valve lift and more RPM
Thanks guys
In case you missed the best advice in this thread:
You need a 90mm+ MAF housing with huge intake tubing and a tune to match, a 62mm throttle body and CMCV delete plates and 3.73 or 4.10 gears to take full advantage of any cam install on your car. I would also suggest a stage 1 or stage 2 cam for your automatic transmission car even if you replace the converter with a looser converter. IMO the automatic in the S197GT drives too nice to mess up with a loose converter.
Cheers!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
What about the cams in the Parnelli Jones? They are using a different cam with P&P heads and are getting 400hp N/A...
How can aftermarket cams be crap?
If I am not mistaken the Parnelli Jones mustang has been punched out to a 302. Increase in displaccement, new heads, new cams = 400hp.
400hp @ the flywheel = around 352 at the wheel give or take. Not really that impressive. Guys I know all of you read all the magazines and such just look for how many of the mustangs they feature 650+ have any cams on them. The cams that are out there are very mild and just slight variations of the stock one. Ford did a really good job on the cams for our cars; point end of story.
Andrew
Andrew,
Sigh, another easily disproved post made out of ignorance by you. O.K. let's take a 2007 Porsche Carrera 911 just your average $75,000 (BASE price), car and undeniably one of the most highly developed regular production N/A street engines in the world today sold in significant quantites. This standard Porsche Carrera 3.6l N/A motor produces 325bhp for a 90.7bhp/liter ratio. The S197GT's 4.6l motor with simple bolt on mods and no internal engine or head mods easily produces a conservative 400+bhp or 86.8bhp/liter. Pretty close for a N/A SOHC American 4.6l (281CID), V8 motor, that 86.8bhp/liter ratio is pretty good by any measure. By comparison the highly vaunted 2007 C6 with it's 6.0 liter (or 366CID), pushrod engine rated at 400bhp only has a 66.6bhp/liter ratio. The revered C6 Z06 with its huge 7liter motor (427CID), is rated at 500bhp only produces 71.4bhp/liter! Those bow ties may have the cubes but the 3-valve is pumping out much better power for displacement than any of them N/A!
When will you stupidity end? When they take away your internet access?
Cheers!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
ORIGINAL: androdz 400hp @ the flywheel = around 352 at the wheel give or take. Not really that impressive. Guys I know all of you read all the magazines and such just look for how many of the mustangs they feature 650+ have any cams on them. The cams that are out there are very mild and just slight variations of the stock one. Ford did a really good job on the cams for our cars; point end of story.
Andrew
Andrew, are you just stupid or is there a serious reading comprehension problem here? How many of those 650+ horsepower 3-valve engines are N/A? Ooh, ooh, I know, I know, NONE of them!
If you knew anything about the way supercharged engines worked you would know that they need shorter valve overlap cam timing to help develop cylinder pressure and hence horse power. N/A engines cannot fill their cylinders as well with short valve overlap cam timing because there is nothing artifically pushing the intake charge through the cylinder heads and into the cylinders. An N/A motor relies instead on the vacum created by the piston on the first down stroke (intake stroke), to fill the cylinders and a big part of the efficiency in filling the cylinders is due to the longer valve overlap to achive a sort of forced filling of the cylinder at higher RPM's.
Hope this helps you understand engines better.
Cheers!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
I was very tempted to get involved in this thread as I have had a positive experience with my Comp stage III's (40 hp gain), but don't feel like dealing with Androdz again.
Peace !!
< Message edited by MusiccityGT -- 6/2/2007 9:30:22 PM >
I was very tempted to get involved in this thread as I have had a positive experience with my Comp stage III's (40 hp gain), but don't feel like dealing with Androdz again.
Peace !!
Please do anyway ! I would like to here what you have to say , How is the idle quality ? (what are your mods) ?
Ok, I will say my peace and then let you-know-who slam everything. I installed the Comps and then took the car to RWTD in Mobile for 6 1/2 hours worth of custom tuning. Why so long? The guy is a perfectionist. He wouldn't take it off the dyno until everthing was 101% perfect. The final numbers were 345/333, a gain of 39.8 rwhp. The real world power is VERY noticable. It brought my torque band a little higher in the graph, but no real sacrifice down low. I hold in the power band to 6700 before things start to drop off in the slightest. This brings my shift points to 6500 to drop in to the peak on shifts. Not seeing the huge increase at the lower torque band is actually a plus. I can still get off the line good and then all heck breaks loose. It comes alive after 2000 rpms big time. A friend with a mildly tuned Procharger that use to walk me in the 1/8th no longer does. I will come out 2 cars and maintain 1 at the traps. Can't give you true track times because the track we go to was resurfaced with a new concrete surface and has not seasoned in enough for a 100% clean run. I have a new set of D/R's to bolt on and will be going to a couple of other tracks soon for sound numbers.
You can look at my sig link for the mods list. Too much to type. Having done these cams for 3 other people now tells me that L/T's and a good CAI with increased CFM is a must to get the most power. The one with shorties gained about 10 less h/p. As for the larger T/B, forget it. I have had one and am now back to stock. No power gain and a lot of headaches. One of the cars I did had a BBK put on at the tuning session after the cams and it made 2 rwhp and torque dropped off slightly. These oem T/B's are good for 450hp and then some. The only ones I have seen that are at all worthwhile are the GT500 conversions and they make power on F/I applications, but very little on N/A.
Drivability - The cams have a nice sounding lope and will rock the car IF you set the idle down to 600 or less. Mine is at 545 which sounds awesome and has no negative effects, i.e. stalling, charge rate and so on, even with my UDP's. I can't say what the cams are like for you auto guys, every one I have done was a stick. I have no drivability issues at all. No erratic idle, no surging, nothing.
In a nutshell, I am very pleased with the outcome and would do it again in a heartbeat. The major expense is the labor, but fortunately that doesn't factor in for me.
You can look at my sig link for the mods list. Too much to type. Having done these cams for 3 other people now tells me that L/T's and a good CAI with increased CFM is a must to get the most power. The one with shorties gained about 10 less h/p. As for the larger T/B, forget it. I have had one and am now back to stock. No power gain and a lot of headaches. One of the cars I did had a BBK put on at the tuning session after the cams and it made 2 rwhp and torque dropped off slightly. These oem T/B's are good for 450hp and then some. The only ones I have seen that are at all worthwhile are the GT500 conversions and they make power on F/I applications, but very little on N/A.
Thank you, thank you. If I hear one more "you gotta have a new TB" I'm going to puke.
Still haven't got mine to the track--it's raining real nice here in MD today. I'm still looking for a great deal on the ARH long tubes and h-pipe combo, and that's probably the last intake/exhaust mod until I get the nitrous.
After getting the car on the software during cold starts, we figured out the sudden surge problem, and now that's cured. Put the idle down to 600 or so to get a mild lope, and no problems the past few weeks. Just took it to Carlisle and did a quick 120mph blast up the divided highway--man did it pull nice...
John
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2005 Mustang GT 348hp/332trq NA, bolt-ons/cams 12.60 @ 108, looking for 12.00 in 2008 Specs at CarDomain
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RE: Comp Cams Stage 3 Vrs. Crane Cams Stage 3 - 
