nothings wrong with my numbers, The same dyno had mustang GT at 235-240 range. Looks like you read stuff and belive it, but the loss on a manuel is not 10% more like 17-20% thats a fact, about 20-22% on an auto. Mustang Dyno show lower numbers than a dyno jet. about 5-10% less and my 20's" loss about 5-8%. So my numbers are correct. 25% total loss with drivetrain loss, wheels size loss and mustang dyno loss compared to a dyno jet would be 252 rwhp. I was right around that. Sometimes you cant belive everything your read on here. But my numbers are comparable to everyone who has used my shop
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2006 Saleen #560 Hellion Powered If you need to know more, line them up!
thats understandable. i didnt know those conditions!
however....how do you explain such a varying range of numbers between the exact same cars on here. Given you dont know their contidions either but the same cars are varying between like 50-80 horse.
398 on a stock 06 SC? no way! if thats the case, i hope my car is a "factory freak"
I have heard of that though, my buddies T/A made 324 rwhp on a dynojet stock rated at 320 bhp.
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Adam
2006 Saleen Extreme #132 - 456 RWHP (stock) - Scenic Roof - 1 of 4 with roof/color combo
nothings wrong with my numbers, The same dyno had mustang GT at 235-240 range. Looks like you read stuff and belive it, but the loss on a manuel is not 10% more like 17-20% thats a fact, about 20-22% on an auto. Mustang Dyno show lower numbers than a dyno jet. about 5-10% less and my 20's" loss about 5-8%. So my numbers are correct. 25% total loss with drivetrain loss, wheels size loss and mustang dyno loss compared to a dyno jet would be 252 rwhp. I was right around that. Sometimes you cant belive everything your read on here. But my numbers are comparable to everyone who has used my shop
well under these conditions, i did a little math myself. i took the lowest numbers you gave 17% and 5% for powertrain/20's. My E is rated at 550. that means that at 22%, thats 121 powerloss, 429 RWHP. but the 475 upgrade SC cars are making 431 stock...right? .... 22% of 475 is 370 something. and you're trying to say that its 17-20% and 5-8% so 22-28% of 475 is anywhere from 342-370RWHP.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jonsey
2006 SC - 363 stock. 410 with 475 kit. +1 on the Saleen tune is not ideal. Custom tune as soon as the warranty is over in on the books for me.
roughly 9.3% of 400 is 363! roughly 13.4% of 475 is 410!
this proves that the percentages vary w/ your hp rating! 550 bhp would be roughly 15% loss, 475 roughly 13% loss, 400 roughly 10% loss.
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Adam
2006 Saleen Extreme #132 - 456 RWHP (stock) - Scenic Roof - 1 of 4 with roof/color combo
Well I cant speak for everyone else but allot of people either BS there numbers, but IMO its the dyno shops BS numbers! Thats a fact. I think if go with the 20% loss your right on par give or take 10-20 hp.
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2006 Saleen #560 Hellion Powered If you need to know more, line them up!
I would agree... dyno shops that correct for standard conditions are probably BS'ing their numbers. The air density fudge factor can really throw the number. That's why I'm glad I had mine done at sea level near the beach on a day as close to standard conditions you can get in the real world.
Result was 396 hp to the wheels ("475" upgrade kit installed). If you correct for all the fudge factors for the day I had mine done the actual adjusted number comes out just a hair lower. My tune has a more conservative A/F than other cars I've seen dyno'd with this kit. Those other cars make 405-410 at the wheels.
< Message edited by dotbomb -- 5/3/2007 4:22:48 PM >
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1968 GT/CS Sold 2006 S281 SC #469
475 HP kit (more like 465), 3.73 Gears, "E" Panhard & Lower Control Arms
ORIGINAL: S281 E Dyno's should be treated to see what gains are made with mods. The track is the true test.
And Bingo was his name-o!
Exactly, I see so many people get caught up in dyno numbers...
Has anybody here actually had there engine out and dyno'd it, then put their engine in their car to dyno it and see the difference a drivetrain makes? Nope? Carry on.
ORIGINAL: S281 E Dyno's should be treated to see what gains are made with mods. The track is the true test.
And Bingo was his name-o!
Exactly, I see so many people get caught up in dyno numbers...
Has anybody here actually had there engine out and dyno'd it, then put their engine in their car to dyno it and see the difference a drivetrain makes? Nope? Carry on.
I agree and other than the E, Saleen does not take the engine out on these Saleen 3V N/A or S/C. So there guessing overall Crank Hp. I will tell you right now. That the 3V N/A does not have 335 crank hp. The pullies, which we have done plenty of before and after net 3-5 hp max. The exhaust system on the Saleen or not producing 30 hp. Neither is that reflash tune from saleen (which is a joke!) Fact is a Stock 3V N/A Saleen 2006 will put the same or even less hp to the wheels than a Stock GT.
I agree Dyno numbers mean nothing! There good to see your improvement with your mods. but thats all. The track is the only real test
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2006 Saleen #560 Hellion Powered If you need to know more, line them up!
Are any of the "experts" in here knighted as mechanical engineers with emphasis in dyno design? If you can prove your numbers on paper you have what you have, facts are facts unless your sliding some cash to the operator. If you can prove it on the track more power to you (literally) because that takes skill to make those dyno ponies trully get to the pavement. I am more then happy with my numbers, although my drag racing skills could use some work. I am not afraid to admit my lack in skill trying to be like John Force.
So I did an internet search to see if anyone beyond the "experts" on this forum to see what you should get for numbers. I couldn't find anything relating to a 2006 or 2007 (S281, 3 valve, SC, or E) however, I did find an interesting article done by MM&FF on a redfire 2005 S281 SC. They put down 390+ Hp to the rear wheels and estimated 450 at the crank. Okay now lets start the bomb throwing on these guys, maybe we should subtract 10 to 30 ponies because the magazine has mustang in the title so they are bias and there is no way we can prove there level of expertise! No doubt each car will vary a little bit and Modding cars does not always mean increased horsepower sometimes it can mean less. Saleen stealing ponies back maybe?? Either way this is entertaining, great forum. Cheers!
Yes I do have some experience with running a dyno. Every dyno is different every car is different, you can make a dyno read whatever you want it to read. One thing I can promise you there is more than 12%-15% loss on a dyno depending on manuel or auto.
Dyno numbers mean nothing. I have seen 380 rwhp car beat a 450 rwhp by 2 cars. the 380 was on a mustang dyno nd the 450 was on a dyno jet. Go figure. But this is a good thread.
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2006 Saleen #560 Hellion Powered If you need to know more, line them up!
Posts: 1003
Joined: 2/15/2006 From: Fullerton, CA Status: offline
Dyno numbers are for guys that want to look at big peak numbers(guilty). I like the dyno for a/f ratios and to see where the power band is, trying to flatten the curve as well. It is a good way to measure your mods assuming you use the same dyno, similar weather and the same dyno parameters for each pull. That will give you an accurate read on the gains or losses. All my dyno numbers are done this way except for the dyno Saleen did. In fairness, my numbers backed up Saleen's. Also, the dyno is the only way to tune your car, imo. 17% loss for a 5 speed car was what I had always used but I agree there are too many variables for this to be accurate.
ORIGINAL: 06SaLeEn One thing I can promise you there is more than 12%-15% loss on a dyno depending on manuel or auto.
Sorry, but your promises don't mean squat. Please show some proof of your engine on an engine dyno, then on a Dynojet, and post the greater than 15% loss you are talking about. Get the point I'm trying to make here?
ORIGINAL: 06SaLeEn One thing I can promise you there is more than 12%-15% loss on a dyno depending on manuel or auto.
Sorry, but your promises don't mean squat. Please show some proof of your engine on an engine dyno, then on a Dynojet, and post the greater than 15% loss you are talking about. Get the point I'm trying to make here?
Well I dont want to argue with you nor do I want to be a d**k. So I will just leave it like this. If you want to go by Dyno Jet numbers, then you may be correct. But I go by Mustang dyno's and land and sea dyno's, which IMO show real street Hp. Fact is I have seen on Average 18-24% on 5 speeds on just about every car you can think of. Work with both types of dyno's. If your a dyno jet guy then I guess I can see where you think 12% is correct. I dont nor will I ever agree with those numbers. I have done to many dyno comparsions and Track comparsions. Most recently with two pretty equal drivers we took a S197 with 380 rwhp on a Mustang Dyno and S197 450 rwhp from a Dyno jet, everytime the 380 rwhp came out on top, even when we switch drivers. To be honest with you Dyno numbers dont mean to much other than to compare mods and progress, but you will never be able to prove to me that these cars lose 12% (in fact it's even more on a Saleen S281 due to the large wheels) You still the man Polk, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree!
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2006 Saleen #560 Hellion Powered If you need to know more, line them up!
ORIGINAL: 06SaLeEn Well I dont want to argue with you nor do I want to be a d**k. So I will just leave it like this. If you want to go by Dyno Jet numbers, then you may be correct. But I go by Mustang dyno's and land and sea dyno's, which IMO show real street Hp. Fact is I have seen on Average 18-24% on 5 speeds on just about every car you can think of. Work with both types of dyno's. If your a dyno jet guy then I guess I can see where you think 12% is correct. I dont nor will I ever agree with those numbers. I have done to many dyno comparsions and Track comparsions. Most recently with two pretty equal drivers we took a S197 with 380 rwhp on a Mustang Dyno and S197 450 rwhp from a Dyno jet, everytime the 380 rwhp came out on top, even when we switch drivers. To be honest with you Dyno numbers dont mean to much other than to compare mods and progress, but you will never be able to prove to me that these cars lose 12% (in fact it's even more on a Saleen S281 due to the large wheels) You still the man Polk, so I guess we will have to agree to disagree!
I don't think you get what I'm saying, or I'm not explaining it very well. A person would have to dyno a 281 3v on an engine stand to get a true baseline of what the engine does without a drivetrain being part of the equation. The answer to the question of how much horsepower is lost due to drivetrain on the S197 281 3V can only be answered by a direct out-of-car vs. in-car comparison (all other variables being equal). There has to be a legitimate basis for comparison, 'with drivetrain' vs 'without drivetrain'.
Regards, PT
Side Note: My car recently(April 7) dyno'd at 420rwhp on a Mustang Dyno. On the Dyno Jet dyno that my car was tuned on, it never exceeded 403rwhp.
With your first part, I agree and I miss undertood you.
I am not going to say that your numbers are wrong or right. I will say this, Mustang dyno's, which I feel show a better comparions for street hp, can easily show a wrong rwhp number. The fact is there is no much info to put into doing the mustang dyno that may explain why it read lower as something was not imputed right. Again this is just one reason. Also it could the mustang dyno was done correctly, it was the dyno jet not done right. I used to work in a Performance shop part time when I was younger, paid attention to the dyno process and I can tell when done right, the Dyno Jet will read 10%-15% higher than a mustang dyno. Who ever does the dyno can make it look like whatever it wants for the most part.. I never really put to much into dyno numbers, but I am not a guy who just reads stuff on the internet and thinks it's gold. I have done some work.
Dont take this out of context, I do agree with you to certain degree, but In what i have seen a dyno jet will read higher ever time as long as its done right.
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2006 Saleen #560 Hellion Powered If you need to know more, line them up!
I agree and other than the E, Saleen does not take the engine out on these Saleen 3V N/A or S/C. So there guessing overall Crank Hp. I will tell you right now. That the 3V N/A does not have 335 crank hp. The pullies, which we have done plenty of before and after net 3-5 hp max. The exhaust system on the Saleen or not producing 30 hp. Neither is that reflash tune from saleen (which is a joke!) Fact is a Stock 3V N/A Saleen 2006 will put the same or even less hp to the wheels than a Stock GT.
I agree Dyno numbers mean nothing! There good to see your improvement with your mods. but thats all. The track is the only real test
First off, you really think, regardless of how ****ty Saleen's tune is, that an axle-back exhaust, underdrive pullies, air filter (not intake I know), and a reflash tune can't produce 30 more hp to the crank?? Thats rediculous, it easily does. The main reason is not truly these mods, but the fact that with this new tune the car is using 93 octane rather than 87. This makes the biggest difference. The only thing I've added for performance to my car is a catted X-pipe (maybe 8-15 hp). My older brother has an 07' Stock GT and when we race, I woop his ass! He is probably even a little better driver than I am. So I'm not trying to shut you down, just offereing a counterpoint considering I've had first hand experience with both of these cars
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RE: Stock Dyno Numbers? - 
