The original GTO was an incarnation of a model, the models you mentioned and the GTO was the top model, the GTO in this e-debate was never intended to end up as a GTO. Pontiac needed a name and took the easy way (IMHO) to get a car out to market. I still think its a great car but never felt it was a GTO, we agree to disagree.
Pontiac probably figured the same thing as Ford....slap a name on it and people will buy it, no matter how ****ty it is. Just look at the Mustang. Been out powered since 1993 and people still want it, mainly the V6 for crying out loud. Why? Because it's a Mustang and most people are ignorant, or simply don't care about performance.
Obviously Ford is leading the way in luring teenage girls to their first cars. The V6 Mustang outsells everything EVAAAAAAR!
You think the S197 would sell nearly as much if it was labeled as a Probe? People are brand loyal and brand blind. My Mustang buddies are the only people on earth who'd spend twice the money to make their car run as fast as mine did nearly stock....just because they're driving a Mustang.
1. You got to admit that the Mustang is a huge sales success. Can't say that about the camaro at this point.
2. I think calling the mustang ****ty is out of line. But hey, that's your opinion and we know you are the expert.
3. Have you ever taken notice of what gender is driving 80% of the camaros that remain on the road? Yep...you guessed right. Girls.
4. I argue that an 03/04 Mach 1 will equal your stock LS1. And you can't argue the lame "Ford had to put a supercharger on it" crap.
One more thing...I used to think the new goats were hiddeous creatures, but I agree with some of those here that say they grow on you. The Body style is bland at best, but it looks better in person. Hard car to get down the 1320 though. GM could have used a better platform for what is a very good power plant.
I would never say a GTO is a"better" car than a new Mustang. It is a different car. I have owned Mustangs, Camaros, T/As, an SRT4 and now a GTO. When I bought the GTO I drove all of the new "muscle" cars. The Mustang GT, Charger (R/T), GTO etc. Really didn't like the Charger (felt like a barge), I really liked the Mustang GT (hard Decision really), but when I drove the GTO, It made up my mind for me. Honestly, I do not personally know anyone that actually drove a GTO and didn't change their mind about all the negative crap said about them. Bland styling...I don't know about that...styling is a personal preference and I obviously like it. I think the styling may be a little too much Euro-style for some. They ride great...they handle great (especially for a 3700 lbs car), and the LS2 is a great engine. The IRS makes them pretty hard to launch down the drag strip, but once they are rolling , they pull pretty hard. Everyone is welcome to their opinion...I respect that. After all, this is a Mustang forum. I am on here because I appreciate all fast cars...regardless of make or model.
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2006 Torrid Red GTO, M6 Lingenfelter Intake, Magnaflow exhaust, GMM short throw shifter, Predator tune
[Pontiac probably figured the same thing as Ford....slap a name on it and people will buy it, no matter how ****ty it is. Just look at the Mustang. Been out powered since 1993 and people still want it, mainly the V6 for crying out loud. Why? Because it's a Mustang and most people are ignorant, or simply don't care about performance.
Ford didn't just find a car made over-seas and slap a name on it, that was an ignorant comment. Ford found out much quicker than GM that driving dynamics counted more than ET and trap speeds. They did what the buying public wanted at the time making them much smarter than GM. GM killed off the F-Body for a reason, you think people are ignorant, you think Ford cares if they're ignorant? Nope, Ford cares that if they say make it a better daily driver and Ford does, they'll line up in droves to buy.
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Obviously Ford is leading the way in luring teenage girls to their first cars. The V6 Mustang outsells everything EVAAAAAAR!
Makes Ford marketing seem pretty smart sometimes 'eh?
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You think the S197 would sell nearly as much if it was labeled as a Probe? People are brand loyal and brand blind. My Mustang buddies are the only people on earth who'd spend twice the money to make their car run as fast as mine did nearly stock....just because they're driving a Mustang.
People aren't brand blind, had Ford made the Mustang from the Probe like they said they would back in the 80's the loyalty would have gone out the window, millions of letters to Ford stating they would never buy a Probe based Mustang is proof Ford can listen. No offense meant but IMHO you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Mustang owners, not even a little.
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Vortech V2-SQ Supercharger 60' 1.769 1/8 7.901@90.15 1/4 12.20@113.50 - new best! 10/13/07 Best 1/4 on stock KDWS tires = 12.56@113.3 My 2006 Mustang GT Web Page
Everyone I know buys a Mustang to go fast. Everyone I know buys a Camaro to go fast. I bought my car in a very unbiased opinion. I actually went to buy a fully built/C4/nitrous coupe car before my TA, but the guy couldn't get the title. I could care less if it's a Ford, a GM, a Dodge, wtfever it is. If it's fast, I'll drive it. I'd run my car in primer as long as it's fast. I don't care if it had a Ford motor in it.
People that buy pony cars just to cruise around in are more worried about looking fast than going fast. Kinda the same reason guys buy Corvettes when they could buy a car half the price that has the same drivetrain. Those kind of people are not car guys that want to go fast, unlike 100% of this forum. STREET AND STRIP.
If you want to go fast GM is the way to go. This has been tried and true...go to the local strip and just talk to guys. ALL the fast guys are normally running GM motors. Reminds me of the last Ford shootout we went to, yes, a Ford shootout. The guy who won the shootout got booted from the victory after they discovered he had a BBC in it. It was great.
Oh yea, the f-bod was killed off because of disagreements b/w Canada and the US automakers...and the Mach I won't match **** on an f-body. Not stock for stock or mod for mod.
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ORIGINAL: viking396 People aren't brand blind, had Ford made the Mustang from the Probe like they said they would back in the 80's the loyalty would have gone out the window, millions of letters to Ford stating they would never buy a Probe based Mustang is proof Ford can listen. No offense meant but IMHO you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Mustang owners, not even a little.
You just proved what I'm saying....People would NOT have bought the Mustang, even if it looked identical to what it does now, if it has a Probe logo on it. No, that's not brand loyal at all....
Reasearch, learn something, come back and play.
< Message edited by 98LS1 -- 6/3/2007 5:40:57 PM >
I think in most cases Mustang owners tend to buy for the name than the performance, one reason to prove that is all the V6 sold out there, with that said. I bought mine for looks and for upgrading the performace. I had every attention to upgrade the performace of my car from day one. One main reason to match the "go fast" looks!
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2006 Saleen #560 Hellion Powered If you need to know more, line them up!
Meh I raced an ls2 GTO with the same tires as mine...couldnt really call it much of a race though..as far as the other stuff going on in this topic..I dont really know..the only thing I dont like about my stang is how weak the bottem end is..other than that Ive outlaunched most GM cars, they do have a better engine..but from my experience atleast..it seems like the stangs can rip it out of the hole a lot better.
< Message edited by s3cret_stang -- 6/3/2007 5:51:11 PM >
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2002 Mustang GT CH axle Brace Molly upper and lower CAs Lakewood 50/50s 90/10s MT ET Streets Mac long tube headers + Catless H pipe + CAT AFM Powerpipe Procharger 8psi 3 core intercooled Set of used V6 springs
Everyone I know buys a Mustang to go fast. Everyone I know buys a Camaro to go fast. I bought my car in a very unbiased opinion. I actually went to buy a fully built/C4/nitrous coupe car before my TA, but the guy couldn't get the title. I could care less if it's a Ford, a GM, a Dodge, wtfever it is. If it's fast, I'll drive it. I'd run my car in primer as long as it's fast. I don't care if it had a Ford motor in it.
People that buy pony cars just to cruise around in are more worried about looking fast than going fast. Kinda the same reason guys buy Corvettes when they could buy a car half the price that has the same drivetrain. Those kind of people are not car guys that want to go fast, unlike 100% of this forum. STREET AND STRIP.
If you want to go fast GM is the way to go. This has been tried and true...go to the local strip and just talk to guys. ALL the fast guys are normally running GM motors. Reminds me of the last Ford shootout we went to, yes, a Ford shootout. The guy who won the shootout got booted from the victory after they discovered he had a BBC in it. It was great.
Oh yea, the f-bod was killed off because of disagreements b/w Canada and the US automakers...and the Mach I won't match **** on an f-body. Not stock for stock or mod for mod.
quote:
ORIGINAL: viking396 People aren't brand blind, had Ford made the Mustang from the Probe like they said they would back in the 80's the loyalty would have gone out the window, millions of letters to Ford stating they would never buy a Probe based Mustang is proof Ford can listen. No offense meant but IMHO you don't know what you're talking about when it comes to Mustang owners, not even a little.
You just proved what I'm saying....People would NOT have bought the Mustang, even if it looked identical to what it does now, if it has a Probe logo on it. No, that's not brand loyal at all....
Reasearch, learn something, come back and play.
Serious case of rectal-cranial inversion here.
The f-bod was killed off because it didn't compete in the marketplace.
"All the fast guys are driving GMs..." Kinda like the guy on Pinks recently that was runner-up in a BBF- powered camaro. Kinda like IHRA pro-stock is dominated by Ford cars. NHRA has no pro-stock fords...WHY? Rules. Go talk to these folks and find out for yourself.
Hemi Fords and Hemi Chryslers make the biggest power, Not BBC when the RULES are removed. Check out what engine builders in the JEGS engine build competitions build...within rules.
Carry that GM banner and wave it, 98LS1...you're doing a fine job.
< Message edited by 4Stangs -- 6/4/2007 9:53:42 AM >
ORIGINAL: 4Stangs Serious case of rectal-cranial inversion here.
The f-bod was killed off because it didn't compete in the marketplace.
"All the fast guys are driving GMs..." Kinda like the guy on Pinks recently that was runner-up in a BBF- powered camaro. Kinda like IHRA pro-stock is dominated by Ford cars. NHRA has no pro-stock fords...WHY? Rules. Go talk to these folks and find out for yourself.
Hemi Fords and Hemi Chryslers make the biggest power, Not BBC when the RULES are removed. Check out what engine builders in the JEGS engine build competitions build...within rules.
Carry that GM banner and wave it, 98LS1...you're doing a fine job.
So far I have to agree with pretty much everything you have said.... just short of why the fbody was canned...
You can keep siting the poor sales crap but Ive posted numbers that prove otherwise... GM pulled some shady stuff to get out from under the CAW issues... they will never admit to the public what really happened and risk a massive lawsuit from CAW... we have to go off what happened (like the hush order for the word 'camaro' that magically lifted when they tore down the plant).
The goats are extremely ugly, they threw a Corvette engine in some available body. They didn't engineer the car and just grabed an available chasis off the shelf and gave it the legendary name. Chrysler has done the same thing with their Charger, I don't care, a muscle car does not come with four doors, even if it's got a Hemi. I had a 69 Charger, at one time Chrysler Corp made an economy car with the Charger name now they have given the Charger name to the luxury chasis of the Chrysler 300. Ford at least redesigned the Stang to look like a modern muscle car. GM just threw out a muscle car name on an available chasis trying to catch on to the retro muscle car craze. The GTO is BUTT ugly, it may slightly faster than a regular Stang, but the Stang is the complete package, not just a POS with a great engine.
I know this was a few months ago but this info was so wrong I had to speak . . . The Monaro was developed in the late 90s and released with the SBC/LT1 in 2001. The car has been raced since 2001 and won almost every SuperTouring title since (coupe and sedan). The only thing changed for the U.S. market was the LS1 instead of the SBC which is lighter and more powerful and some of the exterior body pieces.
Please tell me how it was just a motor stuck in a car with no engineering . . .
Team MF Member #316 Posts: 13720
Joined: 11/18/2002 From: yep Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Doc GTO
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ORIGINAL: StantheMan
The goats are extremely ugly, they threw a Corvette engine in some available body. They didn't engineer the car and just grabed an available chasis off the shelf and gave it the legendary name. Chrysler has done the same thing with their Charger, I don't care, a muscle car does not come with four doors, even if it's got a Hemi. I had a 69 Charger, at one time Chrysler Corp made an economy car with the Charger name now they have given the Charger name to the luxury chasis of the Chrysler 300. Ford at least redesigned the Stang to look like a modern muscle car. GM just threw out a muscle car name on an available chasis trying to catch on to the retro muscle car craze. The GTO is BUTT ugly, it may slightly faster than a regular Stang, but the Stang is the complete package, not just a POS with a great engine.
I know this was a few months ago but this info was so wrong I had to speak . . . The Monaro was developed in the late 90s and released with the SBC/LT1 in 2001. The car has been raced since 2001 and won almost every SuperTouring title since (coupe and sedan). The only thing changed for the U.S. market was the LS1 instead of the SBC which is lighter and more powerful and some of the exterior body pieces.
Please tell me how it was just a motor stuck in a car with no engineering . . .
i think that what he means is that GM put very little R&D into the GTO for the US market. whether the monaro was successful or not in austrailia, there was very little effort needed on the behalf of the US branch to release the car as the GTO...the same can be said for the G8. then again, a company in financial crisis like GM is cannot be picky, and i kind of like the GTO. however, i prefer the look of the Vauxhall Monaro VXR.
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Joined: 1/5/2004 From: My moms uterus Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Ride Of The Month
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ORIGINAL: Doc GTO
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ORIGINAL: StantheMan
The goats are extremely ugly, they threw a Corvette engine in some available body. They didn't engineer the car and just grabed an available chasis off the shelf and gave it the legendary name. Chrysler has done the same thing with their Charger, I don't care, a muscle car does not come with four doors, even if it's got a Hemi. I had a 69 Charger, at one time Chrysler Corp made an economy car with the Charger name now they have given the Charger name to the luxury chasis of the Chrysler 300. Ford at least redesigned the Stang to look like a modern muscle car. GM just threw out a muscle car name on an available chasis trying to catch on to the retro muscle car craze. The GTO is BUTT ugly, it may slightly faster than a regular Stang, but the Stang is the complete package, not just a POS with a great engine.
I know this was a few months ago but this info was so wrong I had to speak . . . The Monaro was developed in the late 90s and released with the SBC/LT1 in 2001. The car has been raced since 2001 and won almost every SuperTouring title since (coupe and sedan). The only thing changed for the U.S. market was the LS1 instead of the SBC which is lighter and more powerful and some of the exterior body pieces.
Please tell me how it was just a motor stuck in a car with no engineering . . .
i think that what he means is that GM put very little R&D into the GTO for the US market. whether the monaro was successful or not in austrailia, there was very little effort needed on the behalf of the US branch to release the car as the GTO...the same can be said for the G8. then again, a company in financial crisis like GM is cannot be picky, and i kind of like the GTO. however, i prefer the look of the Vauxhall Monaro VXR.
You mean, a company in financial crisis like every American auto manufacturer... .
Team MF Member #316 Posts: 13720
Joined: 11/18/2002 From: yep Status: offline
true, but it seems that ford and chrsyler try "fresh" ideas, such as the edge or the nitro...i think that they did a nice job with the S197 and the charger, although the sedan isnt my thing...but GM seems to just turn to older foreign models and rebadge them, which i think is a bit lazy on their part, but thats life...
i dont know why ford doesnt bring some of their performance sedans from overseas, as they offer some fairly quick cars in other markets, such as the falcon in austrailia and the high performance escosts/focii..
I dunno all about this "Mustangs are slow, why do you guys bother?" stuff. Exactly who are we all trying to be faster than??? I can point out more than a few street driven Mustangs that will walk even the GM hardbangers in here......and that's NA. So who do we have to be faster than to justify owning and driving a Mustang? I'd really like to know. Hell, most of the LS1 owners I've met thru friends or out on the town don't even have anything more significant than aftermarket pipes on their cars........just like most of the GT owners I meet. And I also concour with another observation.....most of the ppl I see driving 4th gen F-bods around here, are women.
All I do know is that 99% of the ppl who will try to piss me into a race on the street drive something that couldn't touch my S197 even when I was stock...........so where's the hurry to build it into a 9 second car? I like making my ride faster, but not necessarily to meet some ET challenge for myself. I make my car faster to satisfy my right foot, and as long as my right foot is happy.......I'll be keeping my mustang.
Now back to the lengthy, often-beat-to-death topic at hand: GM's biggest mistake, as I've said time and again, was using the GTO badge. I think it was a bit presumptious of them to think they could import an Australian bred coupe and think the redblooded American muscleheads would be happy to call it by the legendary GTO badge. If this car had been called something else......anything else, it would have garnered nothing but praise. The GTO badge just raised expectations too high IMO. But they are really great cars, and there simply was no easier way to park a 400hp factory coupe in your driveway. I simply don't understand ppl calling them "dogs".......cuz the wrong driver in any car can make it seem like a slow ride.
< Message edited by ThisBlood147 -- 6/12/2007 6:41:59 PM >
I dunno all about this "Mustangs are slow, why do you guys bother?" stuff. Exactly who are we all trying to be faster than??? I can point out more than a few street driven Mustangs that will walk even the GM hardbangers in here......and that's NA. So who do we have to be faster than to justify owning and driving a Mustang? I'd really like to know. Hell, most of the LS1 owners I've met thru friends or out on the town don't even have anything more significant than aftermarket pipes on their cars........just like most of the GT owners I meet. And I also concour with another observation.....most of the ppl I see driving 4th gen F-bods around here, are women.
All I do know is that 99% of the ppl who will try to piss me into a race on the street drive something that couldn't touch my S197 even when I was stock...........so where's the hurry to build it into a 9 second car? I like making my ride faster, but not necessarily to meet some ET challenge for myself. I make my car faster to satisfy my right foot, and as long as my right foot is happy.......I'll be keeping my mustang.
Now back to the lengthy, often-beat-to-death topic at hand: GM's biggest mistake, as I've said time and again, was using the GTO badge. I think it was a bit presumptious of them to think they could import an Australian bred coupe and think the redblooded American muscleheads would be happy to call it by the legendary GTO badge. If this car had been called something else......anything else, it would have garnered nothing but praise. The GTO badge just raised expectations too high IMO. But they are really great cars, and there simply was no easier way to park a 400hp factory coupe in your driveway. I simply don't understand ppl calling them "dogs".......cuz the wrong driver in any car can make it seem like a slow ride.
+1 Well said.
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Vortech V2-SQ Supercharger 60' 1.769 1/8 7.901@90.15 1/4 12.20@113.50 - new best! 10/13/07 Best 1/4 on stock KDWS tires = 12.56@113.3 My 2006 Mustang GT Web Page
Meh I raced an ls2 GTO with the same tires as mine...couldnt really call it much of a race though..as far as the other stuff going on in this topic..I dont really know..the only thing I dont like about my stang is how weak the bottem end is..other than that Ive outlaunched most GM cars, they do have a better engine..but from my experience atleast..it seems like the stangs can rip it out of the hole a lot better.
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RE: Ls2 GTO's are dogs.. - 
