Got my car back from the dyno today, ill post the sheets tomorrow when i get them

371rwhp and 402rwtq @ 9psi 11.5 a/f

i was incredibley shocked with the numbers it put down at only 9psi.

these are #s people are putting out with 12+psi on superchargers (and they cant touch the torque)

That is awesome! Sign me up....:)

so those are at 9 psi? dayum!

awesome man[sm=smiley20.gif]

Cool! That's friggin nice for 9 psi!
So tell me, how loud is the turbo? I mean how obvious is it to the ear? I am sure you can hear it spooling but is it really obvious sound wise?

ORIGINAL: wolfey2k

Cool! That's friggin nice for 9 psi!
So tell me, how loud is the turbo? I mean how obvious is it to the ear? I am sure you can hear it spooling but is it really obvious sound wise?



http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=20098 36217

Sweet!! You own my favorite car on these forums.

So how hard was this to tune compared to a SC?

Also is 9psi boost on turbo as safe as 9psi on a SC. Seems to me that the turbo would acually be safer because you do not have the stress of running the SC, but Im no expert.

he had it for a long time, but most of the time was tryin to fix the decell

and 9psi is 9psi, but u can say 300rwhp is safer on a turbo than a s/c cuz itd take more boost on the s/c then the turbo

ORIGINAL: fazm

ORIGINAL: wolfey2k

Cool! That's friggin nice for 9 psi!
So tell me, how loud is the turbo? I mean how obvious is it to the ear? I am sure you can hear it spooling but is it really obvious sound wise?



Gee tanx! Lots of funny video clips but nothing of your carifthat's whatyou intended to post................

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=20098 36217

works for me when i click it

Cool, right now I am stock and I am in need of some boost. Got smoked by a ricer today, didnt help that I burned out on the BFs till I hit the rev limit, new tires and Tlock are on the short list. Im back and forth on either a turbo or a SC.

Would you call 9psi pretty safe on a daily driver, 371rwhp is sweet, but I would settle for 300!

i believe it to be safe

What is the maximum HP and Torque the drivetrain can safely handle?
What can the engine's top and bottom end safely handle for 100,000 miles?
Anyone know?

ORIGINAL: fazm

works for me when i click it


Ahh, you must have just uploaded it when you sent me the link?
Anyway it works now! Cool!
GAWD! It sounds just like in the movies!
Supercar!
I could get used to that. ;-)
How much did that setup set you back again?

cant talk about price sorry, the kit is $5200
i installed it myself
too many factors to go into how long something can last

ill be happy to last another 40k

i may want one of those downthe road now.......nice vid..sounds sick[sm=signs007.gif]

ORIGINAL: fazm

cant talk about price sorry, the kit is $5200
i installed it myself
too many factors to go into how long something can last

ill be happy to last another 40k


Ahh, tiz a secret eh? Hmm. Okay.
I looked them up and it takes what about half a day to install and fire up?
40K eh?: I hope you don't mean 40K until she goes chitty chitty bang bang !

PH411 now has the mail order kit up on their site. Intercooled $4800 non is $4000.

they ask for at least 2 days i believe

the 4800 is for the tuner kit, 5200 for the complete kit

Congrats Fazm!!!!

That is some sick pony!!

After seeing the video I want a ride.

Have fun with it.

Excellent numbers Going to be a great test to see what the motor can handle :)

Another Turbo!!!!! Right on! Congrats Fazm. Those numbers are f'ing amazing for 9psi. Wow.

Your telling me that you put down 170ish stock and with only 9psi your at 370ish rwhp. I need to see a dyno sheet. There are guys in V8's putting 380-390 range with 6psi with the turbo V8's. Not to say BS but please post dyno pics.

thank

Also is the 14.1ish 1/4 mile time stock V6? Something is not adding up here. i would like to hear more about your car.

14.1 is not on stock v6. Fazm has everybolt on there is. he made 217rwhp or something liek that befor eturbo

Yeah but some of those bolt on's are pointless and do nothing when you have a turbo (I know I am having one installed now.) Point is even he was 217 rwhp before, your telling me he gained 160 rwhp? To be honest I dont buy it.

Unless I see a dyno sheet I dont belive it, in fact I think if he has a dyno sheet his tuner guy BS the numbers.
I just dont see the gain. Again some of the bolt on's would be pointless with the turbo, they would actually cancel each other out.

Also what kind of dyno was he on? Dyno jet (not real street numbers,Mustang Dyno,land and sea dyno etc..)

What kind of numbers are you getting from your s/c?

14.1 with 217 rwhp? That seems a little low, but I am more likely to belive that one.

Rygen made 377 rwtq at 9psi but the spring actually made 8.5. Ill find the dyno

Yeah thanks. Not trying to be a Di**, I just like to see it, truth is if there getting those number from the v6, wow! That is nice to hear.

Bolt on's put these cars in the new edge area.

Actually i think rygen may hav ebeen 10.5
371 rwtq with less mods

http://www.rygen.net/stang/11psi.jpg

like i said before, when i have the dyno sheet ill post it. And you cant b/s a dynojet, you CAN b/s a mustang dyno however (changing vehicle weight, etc)

i was there when we made the pulls, as well as about 4 gawkers and my friend going "no way".

before the turbo i was making 211rwhp and 239rwtq

rygen and i actually have similar mods, few differences

1. he was 10.3 psi on that run
2.he runs catalytic converters still
3.that was on a mustang dyno
4.hes an automatic

still less mods[8D] lol j/k

He was running 320 rwhp, which I can see the 120 rwhp increase.

I am not big into Dyno jet, I think (I would say i know but we would probaly be here all day going back and forth lol) they just dont equal what your putting down on the street, again day for that one.

How much will the V6 handle when it comes to Hp, I know on the V8 some start poping at 420-450 rwhp.

Mustang dynos make MUCH lower numbers than dynojets. I think rygen probably could have made 360 or so rwhpon a dynojet. Correct me if im wrong someone


Also torque wins races not hp.

i know so far the v6 has been pushed to 450+rwhp and 580rwtq on a mustang dyno on the stock block

mustang dynos make less, but can be tweaked to read the same, thats why i prefer a dynojet

Agree Tq does win races not HP,

But if you have someone who knows what there doing a mustang dyno even though the number is lower is a more accurate number. I have never heard one good fact about a dyno jet that makes me think the numbers are correct.

Every car is different, I think we can agree the weight of the car, tires and other things make the number from a properly runned mustnag dyno a more accurate number....
Like I have always said, when your 400rwhp from a Dyno jet lines up to another car with 360 rwhp and the 400rwhp gets beat dont come looking at me for a I told you so.LOL

To be honest the track is the only place that matters, dyno is for numbers thats it and number dont mean squat

I put down 309rwhp/355rwtq @ 11psi on PowerHouse's Mustang Dyno. Which would probably equate to +10% on Dynojet = 340rwhp/390rwtq.
I have the automatic, cats, and am missing mods like shorty headers that Fazm has, so I can see him pulling these numbers out. The manual cars are def. putting out higher numbers than auto's from the info I have seen. Take out the cats and add more flow with the shorties and there will be a good increase. I have already talked to Mike/PH about adding supporting mods to squeeze as much hp/tq as I can, so will be going this route as well.
Nice job Fazm, really looking forward to seeing your runs this year!

Here is my dyno as well:
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m264/buckman69/dyno_0021.jpg

With the kind of torque he's pushing now, I wonder if it wouldn't be prudent to upgrade the rear end to something more beefy, not to mention the tranny, driveshaft and engine. Scarynumbers for a stock4.0!
Anyone got high mileage on their blown 05yet to compare with?
One other thing, with that newradical power output, shouldn't one consider upgrading thebrakes and brake cooling? Gotta be able to safely stop that monster yaknow ;-).

ORIGINAL: petepete

Actually i think rygen may hav ebeen 10.5
371 rwtq with less mods

http://www.rygen.net/stang/11psi.jpg



Strong number Fazm congrats!


Pete lets look at some things on rygens and as fazm mentioned.

Rygens
Dyno 320rwhp 371rwtq

Mustang dyno -------------add rwhp
10.5 AFR -11.5 AFR------addrwhp
Auto vs manual------------- rwhp
no Cats vs cats--------------rwhp

So if you take the above into account Fazmnumbers are inline if you scale up on rygens but I agree very still very strong numbers andwhen fazm goes11 psi or 12 and if the dynosshow a full (per spring)11.5 - 12psi will be very interesting on how the motor handles it on pump gas(what the AFR is )and of course with the rwhp, rwtq and 1/4 times he puts down

Yep that makes sense to me thats what i was trying to say is that its verypossible fazm got higher numbers than rygen. I think we all believe it except for 06 saleen o_O.

ORIGINAL: Buckman

I put down 309rwhp/355rwtq @ 11psi on PowerHouse's Mustang Dyno. Which would probably equate to +10% on Dynojet = 340rwhp/390rwtq.
I have the automatic, cats, and am missing mods like shorty headers that Fazm has, so I can see him pulling these numbers out. The manual cars are def. putting out higher numbers than auto's from the info I have seen. Take out the cats and add more flow with the shorties and there will be a good increase. I have already talked to Mike/PH about adding supporting mods to squeeze as much hp/tq as I can, so will be going this route as well.
Nice job Fazm, really looking forward to seeing your runs this year!

Here is my dyno as well:
http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m264/buckman69/dyno_0021.jpg



Buckman what was AFR?

ORIGINAL: 06SaLeEn

Agree Tq does win races not HP,

But if you have someone who knows what there doing a mustang dyno even though the number is lower is a more accurate number. I have never heard one good fact about a dyno jet that makes me think the numbers are correct.

Every car is different, I think we can agree the weight of the car, tires and other things make the number from a properly runned mustnag dyno a more accurate number....
Like I have always said, when your 400rwhp from a Dyno jet lines up to another car with 360 rwhp and the 400rwhp gets beat dont come looking at me for a I told you so.LOL

To be honest the track is the only place that matters, dyno is for numbers thats it and number dont mean squat


exactly track is where it counts.

what times u running?
i have the 2nd fastest bolt on 4.0 and thats at 1243ft in altitude in the desert.

Well I suppose I belive it. I just never thought they (4.0L) could get that much out of them. Congrat and made love to you v6 guys.


I have 13.3 stock with 20 inch tires. I have not run it with the new tune and CAI. Since I was running 280 rwhp with a land an sea dyno (like a mustang) I am sure I am over 300 with a dyno jet and put 17 or 18 inch rims I would add another 10-15 rwhp since the big 20's take alot of hp away.

I hope to be in low 12's or better with the new hellion turbo.

Good talking to you v6 guys. You guys seem more laid back...

I was told by John (scrming) that the conversion factor for a Mustang Dyno is 9%, so:
(Mustang Dyno #) X 1.09 = (DynoJet #)
(DynoJet #) / 1.09 = (Mustang Dyno #)
To illustrate, my wife's 4.0L/auto vert with C&L, tune, and GT mufflerwas at 190rwhp on a Mustang Dyno. That converts to 207.1rwhp on a DynoJet (although now the vert is back to stock).

GREAT NUMBERS FAZM!!!

Is the front end of the car going to be put back together today?

ORIGINAL: wolfey2k

........Scarynumbers for a stock4.0!
Anyone got high mileage on their blown 05yet to compare with? .......


55k miles half of them blown.......... I am not putting out those turbo numbers, but S/C's are harder on the motors even at lower outputs...... running 10psi....

ORIGINAL: azstanglover

Is the front end of the car going to be put back together today?


i am going to put it on right now actually

ORIGINAL: 06SaLeEn

He was running 320 rwhp, which I can see the 120 rwhp increase.

I am not big into Dyno jet, I think (I would say i know but we would probaly be here all day going back and forth lol) they just dont equal what your putting down on the street, again day for that one.

How much will the V6 handle when it comes to Hp, I know on the V8 some start poping at 420-450 rwhp.


Powerhouse ran their stock block at 400rwhp ish all last season and part of the previous season. That was with a good tune, and race gas.

ORIGINAL: 28HopUp

I was told by John (scrming) that the conversion factor for a Mustang Dyno is 9%, so:
(Mustang Dyno #) X 1.09 = (DynoJet #)
(DynoJet #) / 1.09 = (Mustang Dyno #)
To illustrate, my wife's 4.0L/auto vert with C&L, tune, and GT muffler was at 190rwhp on a Mustang Dyno. That converts to 207.1rwhp on a DynoJet (although now the vert is back to stock).

GREAT NUMBERS FAZM!!!


Powerhouses Mustang Dyno reads 10-11% lower than a DJ, so I usually go with the conservative side and do 10%.

ORIGINAL: 06SaLeEn


Well I suppose I belive it. I just never thought they (4.0L) could get that much out of them. Congrat and made love to you v6 guys.


I have 13.3 stock with 20 inch tires. I have not run it with the new tune and CAI. Since I was running 280 rwhp with a land an sea dyno (like a mustang) I am sure I am over 300 with a dyno jet and put 17 or 18 inch rims I would add another 10-15 rwhp since the big 20's take alot of hp away.

I hope to be in low 12's or better with the new hellion turbo.

Good talking to you v6 guys. You guys seem more laid back...


With the turbo and some DR's, you should be hitting 11.8ish easily.

yes I hope so. I cant wait till I get my car back next week. I am like a kid in a candy store.

ORIGINAL: 06SaLeEn

yes I hope so. I cant wait till I get my car back next week. I am like a kid in a candy store.


I would get some DR's, 20s are nice, but will hurt your effective gear ratio. If you are an auto, look into a TCI street fighter or other torque converter for the 8. A good torque converter should be good for 2 to 4 10ths. I'd love to see some pics of your car. I really like the look of the S197 saleens.

ORIGINAL: A_Sixer

ORIGINAL: wolfey2k

........Scarynumbers for a stock4.0!
Anyone got high mileage on their blown 05yet to compare with? .......


55k miles half of them blown.......... I am not putting out those turbo numbers, but S/C's are harder on the motors even at lower outputs...... running 10psi....



now why would sc'sor xc's be harder on an ENGINE than a turbo where boost is concerned?
Also do you meanhalf of the engines are blown as in ruined or blown as inboosted?
Thanks

Very nice numbers fazm. Now I can only imagine what my mustang would be like.

ok put the bumper back on

local://upfiles/31988/7E3CC1767E584DB7ADA57E0D5A924C04.jpg

Clean!!! Nice job.

ORIGINAL: wolfey2k

ORIGINAL: A_Sixer

ORIGINAL: wolfey2k

........Scarynumbers for a stock4.0!
Anyone got high mileage on their blown 05yet to compare with? .......


55k miles half of them blown.......... I am not putting out those turbo numbers, but S/C's are harder on the motors even at lower outputs...... running 10psi....



now why would sc'sor xc's be harder on and ENGINE than a turbo where boost is cocnerned?
Also do you meanhalf of the engines are blown as in ruined or blown as inboosted?
Thanks


Half of those miles have been "blown" as in boosted.....

[/quote]
now why would sc'sor xc's be harder on and ENGINE than a turbo where boost is cocnerned?
Also do you meanhalf of the engines are blown as in ruined or blown as inboosted?
Thanks
[/quote]

From what i've been reading on these forums boost don't really hurt the car its more detenation. You need a good dyno tune and you should be fine. Correct? A turbo is better for your engine cause your not using the engine to make the boost. Its not pully driven. My motor is taking more stress at 6-7 psi procharged to make the boostthan his is at 9 psi turbo'd. Turbo just uses wasted exhaust. It geinus really. I wish the kit was avalibale when I was deciding what system I wanted but it wasn't so I went the PC route. I'll tell you this though. My next car in the future will be turbo'd. Things just make crazy tq! lol

what turbo is that you used fazm??? and theoretically if i bought it at full retail and paid someone labor to install it how much would it cost me???

thanks
Zach

Meybe around $6500 but not sure.

if you got it there at ph i believe its 6k including install
if someone brought it into my shop, i would charge about $800-1000 to install it, then expect about 300-500 for a custom tune if u wanted one.

cool .. but what is the brand and model of this paricular turbo??

thanks
Zach

Gauges too. Gauges bit me in the ass after I bought my kit butIf you wanna be safe$275 for the AEM wideband air/fuel and about $40 for a boost gauge. $120ish for a good pod or $60 for a cheap one like minethat don't stay on sometimes lol

Isn't it the P1turbo or something like that. I think its a good quality one from whatI remember readingin the past on these forums. But someone will chime in with the exact corrent responce

When I was looking into one of those kits, they wanted my car for a week.

Down the road, I may end up getting another Mustang, maybe another year or so. Maybe I'll use my s/c'd one as my daily driver and get the new one turbo'dand use itas my weekend/track car!!! :)

ORIGINAL: ilduce321

When I was looking into one of those kits, they wanted my car for a week.

Down the road, I may end up getting another Mustang, maybe another year or so. Maybe I'll use my s/c'd one as my daily driver and get the new one turbo'dand use itas my weekend/track car!!! :)


AMEN to that!!!!!!! I know if i get another stang it will be a cobra...wether it be a 03-04 or 07 when they finally decide to sell at or below MSRP. Theirs just no comparison b/w the torque of a Twin-Screw Kenne or whipple to any other s/c or turbo

I know two cobra owners that switched out to turbos to get more TQ. One of them races locally at the track near me.

ORIGINAL: rygenstormlocke


ORIGINAL: 06SaLeEn

yes I hope so. I cant wait till I get my car back next week. I am like a kid in a candy store.


I would get some DR's, 20s are nice, but will hurt your effective gear ratio. If you are an auto, look into a TCI street fighter or other torque converter for the 8. A good torque converter should be good for 2 to 4 10ths. I'd love to see some pics of your car. I really like the look of the S197 saleens.




I know about the 20's I will be getting some 18's soon. Its 5 speed. As soon as I get back in town and pick up my car I will post some pics of the car,dyno and turbo set up

ORIGINAL: ilduce321

When I was looking into one of those kits, they wanted my car for a week.

Down the road, I may end up getting another Mustang, maybe another year or so. Maybe I'll use my s/c'd one as my daily driver and get the new one turbo'dand use itas my weekend/track car!!! :)


That would be the shizz! I'd want to drive the turbo around somedays though lol

ORIGINAL: ricklmesa@cox.net




now why would sc'sor xc's be harder on and ENGINE than a turbo where boost is cocnerned?
Also do you meanhalf of the engines are blown as in ruined or blown as inboosted?
Thanks

From what i've been reading on these forums boost don't really hurt the car its more detenation. You need a good dyno tune and you should be fine. Correct? A turbo is better for your engine cause your not using the engine to make the boost. Its not pully driven. My motor is taking more stress at 6-7 psi procharged to make the boostthan his is at 9 psi turbo'd. Turbo just uses wasted exhaust. It geinus really. I wish the kit was avalibale when I was deciding what system I wanted but it wasn't so I went the PC route. I'll tell you this though. My next car in the future will be turbo'd. Things just make crazy tq! lol


well this is my first post back in a week since i was in colorado, so bear with me here, but i will try to explain best i can. People read too much into psi. Psi really means nothing. It is CFM or cubic feet per minute that matters. The p61 (i beleive that is the turbo powerhouse uses correct me if i am wrong) from what i have seen so far seems to greatly outflow the ati head unit in your kit and the vortech head unit. This means at 6 psi on all the systems (procharger, vortech, and powerhouse) the turbo will actually be pushing more air volumetrically. Same pressure levels, but more air from the turbo. I believe the ati outflows the vortech head unit by a bit too. Plus pressure drops from different intercoolers and such can factor in and change CFM. Blowers leach power to make power, so you will naturally see slightly lower numbers if the flow is the same. Now, at the same power numbers, a blower will put more stress at redline because really the motor is feeling the stress of slightly higher power numbers because of the power being robbed by the blower itself. On the other hand, a centrifugal supercharger will usually deliver boost at higher rpm's which will usually cause a bit less stress, but since that is dependant on how the turbo in question is set up, we wont use that as a factor. Really, turbo's can make the same power as a blower with less stress if set up properly, but as you can see it will cost alot more. Don't kid yourself, this setup at 9 psi making the power numbers it is, is far more stress than your setup depending on the tune, but likely (not necessarily) your motor will last longer on your current setup.

basically here is the deal-

boost is not measured in the cylinder when you are talking pulleys for blowers and wastegate pressure for turbos. Since the cylinder is a constant size, if the CFM is the same from a blower at 6 psi and a turbo at 6 psi, the pressure will be exaclty the same inside the cylinder, the difference will be that the blower will be robbing power to create that pressure, so it will make a bit less power, so for example (a very rough example, do not take this as fact) a properly setup turbo kit making say 320ish rwhp will generate generally the same stress on the motor as a blower setup at 280ish rwhp. do not use boost pressure to estimate stress. At high boost levels it will make a difference, and even at low levels it will make a very small difference, but what you want to look at here is power levels. Knocking/detonation can happen with any setup and is TERRIBLE on f/i setups especially with hypereutectic pistons, you just want a very good tune to try to keep away from it.

this post probably made 0 sense to alot of you. I wrote over the course of like an hour coming back and forth from the phone/food/AIM, so if you dont understand this and really want to know, just toss me a pm and i will explain it in detail, and if you have AIM i could draw you some charts on paint or something if you really want to learn about it.



EDIT: i said psi means nothing in the beginning....that's not true, but in this regard, it means very little.

You contradict yourself. In the first paragraph you state that for the same PSI, the turbo flows more air: "This means at 6 psi on all the systems (procharger, vortech, and powerhouse) the turbo will actually be pushing more air volumetrically. Same pressure levels, but more air from the turbo."

Then in the 3rd paragraph you said: "Since the cylinder is a constant size, if the CFM is the same from a blower at 6 psi and a turbo at 6 psi, the pressure will be exactly the same inside the cylinder,"

The second one is correct. As far as boost and the motor are concerned, 6 psi is 6 psi, 9 is 9, etc. For any given cylinder volume, more air pressure means moreoxygen molecules are contained in the mix. Its really the O2 we're concerned with, - which is the same theory behind nitrous oxide injection - more oxygen to bond with the fuel makes for a better explosion in the cylinder. For a constant amount of fuel, the increased amount of air will cause a lean condition at higher pressures - which is where a good tune, and higher pressure injectorscome in. Even for the correct air/fuel ratio, the increase in heat on the compression stroke due to the friction between the molecules of the already compressed (by the FI)mixture can cause it to explode early - while the piston is still traveling upward. This is detonation. This is why FI engines must run the highest octane fuel available - higher octane fuels are harder to burn, decreasing the chance for detonation.

It's the parasitic loss inherent in S/Cs (it takes HP to drive the pulley)that makes them less efficient than turbos overall, but the fact that the power comes on quicker (since you don't have to wait for exhaust pressure to build) is a good trade-off.

ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro

ORIGINAL: ricklmesa@cox.net




now why would sc'sor xc's be harder on and ENGINE than a turbo where boost is cocnerned?
Also do you meanhalf of the engines are blown as in ruined or blown as inboosted?
Thanks

From what i've been reading on these forums boost don't really hurt the car its more detenation. You need a good dyno tune and you should be fine. Correct? A turbo is better for your engine cause your not using the engine to make the boost. Its not pully driven. My motor is taking more stress at 6-7 psi procharged to make the boostthan his is at 9 psi turbo'd. Turbo just uses wasted exhaust. It geinus really. I wish the kit was avalibale when I was deciding what system I wanted but it wasn't so I went the PC route. I'll tell you this though. My next car in the future will be turbo'd. Things just make crazy tq! lol


well this is my first post back in a week since i was in colorado, so bear with me here, but i will try to explain best i can. People read too much into psi. Psi really means nothing. It is CFM or cubic feet per minute that matters. The p61 (i beleive that is the turbo powerhouse uses correct me if i am wrong) from what i have seen so far seems to greatly outflow the ati head unit in your kit and the vortech head unit. This means at 6 psi on all the systems (procharger, vortech, and powerhouse) the turbo will actually be pushing more air volumetrically. Same pressure levels, but more air from the turbo. I believe the ati outflows the vortech head unit by a bit too. Plus pressure drops from different intercoolers and such can factor in and change CFM. Blowers leach power to make power, so you will naturally see slightly lower numbers if the flow is the same. Now, at the same power numbers, a blower will put more stress at redline because really the motor is feeling the stress of slightly higher power numbers because of the power being robbed by the blower itself. On the other hand, a centrifugal supercharger will usually deliver boost at higher rpm's which will usually cause a bit less stress, but since that is dependant on how the turbo in question is set up, we wont use that as a factor. Really, turbo's can make the same power as a blower with less stress if set up properly, but as you can see it will cost alot more. Don't kid yourself, this setup at 9 psi making the power numbers it is, is far more stress than your setup depending on the tune, but likely (not necessarily) your motor will last longer on your current setup.

basically here is the deal-

boost is not measured in the cylinder when you are talking pulleys for blowers and wastegate pressure for turbos. Since the cylinder is a constant size, if the CFM is the same from a blower at 6 psi and a turbo at 6 psi, the pressure will be exaclty the same inside the cylinder, the difference will be that the blower will be robbing power to create that pressure, so it will make a bit less power, so for example (a very rough example, do not take this as fact) a properly setup turbo kit making say 320ish rwhp will generate generally the same stress on the motor as a blower setup at 280ish rwhp. do not use boost pressure to estimate stress. At high boost levels it will make a difference, and even at low levels it will make a very small difference, but what you want to look at here is power levels. Knocking/detonation can happen with any setup and is TERRIBLE on f/i setups especially with hypereutectic pistons, you just want a very good tune to try to keep away from it.

this post probably made 0 sense to alot of you. I wrote over the course of like an hour coming back and forth from the phone/food/AIM, so if you dont understand this and really want to know, just toss me a pm and i will explain it in detail, and if you have AIM i could draw you some charts on paint or something if you really want to learn about it.



EDIT: i said psi means nothing in the beginning....that's not true, but in this regard, it means very little.




Ocd03gro few things I agree psi is not everything (see link also stated that here http://4.0c.ollective.com/showthread.php?t=5996&page=2 (http://4.0c.ollective.com/showthread.php?t=5996&page=2) and agree it is also the power the motor is making along with psi and not just psi only but psi is a important limiting factor on how high you can go safely on this motor on pump gas..


The other thing your talking about in your example is parasitic loss but your example of 320 rwhp vs 280 rwhp is not correct for all blower types. On the new roots type S/C newer design it is way less than that amount in your example but yes with superchargers there is a parasitic loss of about 1% so on some superchargers I agree but not all s/c are as high per your quote.


On the other hand, a centrifugal supercharger will usually deliver boost at higher rpm's which will usually cause a bit less stress,

Ocd03gro I don’t agree with this about less stress on the motorcan you provide a link any link stating this and not one from the ProCharger/ centriweb site?

A motor imo is weaker the higher you go in rpms spinning a bearing throwing a rodsucking in a valve etc etcthe risk raises the higher the rpms so with the PH turbo and the X Charger you make full power by 5300 -5500 rpms unlike a centri at 6000 -6200 rpms so you could shift at 5500-5700 and be at full power if one wanted.

Congrats on the numbers fazm. These number are in the 99-04 Supercharged GTs area ....very nice. IF price wasnt an issue , you cant beat turbos.

me and friend were talking about CFM last night, in basic terms, the size of the impeller on the turbo/ centrifugal supercharger is what determines the CFM.

ORIGINAL: MdnytRider

You contradict yourself. In the first paragraph you state that for the same PSI, the turbo flows more air: "This means at 6 psi on all the systems (procharger, vortech, and powerhouse) the turbo will actually be pushing more air volumetrically. Same pressure levels, but more air from the turbo."

Then in the 3rd paragraph you said: "Since the cylinder is a constant size, if the CFM is the same from a blower at 6 psi and a turbo at 6 psi, the pressure will be exactly the same inside the cylinder,"

The second one is correct. As far as boost and the motor are concerned, 6 psi is 6 psi, 9 is 9, etc. For any given cylinder volume, more air pressure means moreoxygen molecules are contained in the mix. Its really the O2 we're concerned with, - which is the same theory behind nitrous oxide injection - more oxygen to bond with the fuel makes for a better explosion in the cylinder. For a constant amount of fuel, the increased amount of air will cause a lean condition at higher pressures - which is where a good tune, and higher pressure injectorscome in. Even for the correct air/fuel ratio, the increase in heat on the compression stroke due to the friction between the molecules of the already compressed (by the FI)mixture can cause it to explode early - while the piston is still traveling upward. This is detonation. This is why FI engines must run the highest octane fuel available - higher octane fuels are harder to burn, decreasing the chance for detonation.

It's the parasitic loss inherent in S/Cs (it takes HP to drive the pulley)that makes them less efficient than turbos overall, but the fact that the power comes on quicker (since you don't have to wait for exhaust pressure to build) is a good trade-off.


read it again i don't contradict myself at all. the first part i was stating that the turbo flows better, which it does in this case, which means it will flow a larger amount of air at a lower measured psi. These pressures are NOT measured in the cylidner which was my point in the second part. Since all the piping will be different sizes, and the turbo flows better, 10 psi on a centri may be roughly the same airflow as 9 psi on the turbo. Since i don't have flow charts for any of them, this is just a basic idea, but that is what is going on here. You are reading my statements totally wrong. Most of you don't realize that i could run a very small turbo at 10 psi with the even at the same temps as a larger turbo at 8 psi, and they may actually flow exactly the same cfm which would cause the same or close to the same power at peak. Obviously there are more factors, but you are misunderstanding.

Your last comment about power building early....a properly setup turbo with today's technology will have almost nill lag and will be more efficient. Peak boost at i beleive 2900 is where the ph kit makes it, is faster than the centri's make boost on the 10 psi pulleys.


Ocd03gro few things I agree psi is not everything (see link also stated that here http://4.0c.ollective.com/showthread.php?t=5996&page=2 (http://4.0c.ollective.com/showthread.php?t=5996&page=2) and agree it is also the power the motor is making along with psi and not just psi only but psi is a important limiting factor on how high you can go safely on this motor on pump gas..


The other thing your talking about in your example is parasitic loss but your example of 320 rwhp vs 280 rwhp is not correct for all blower types. On the new roots type S/C newer design it is way less than that amount in your example but yes with superchargers there is a parasitic loss of about 1% so on some superchargers I agree but not all s/c are as high per your quote.

That is why i said don't take it as fact, it is just a rough example, and it will change depending on the setup.

quote:

On the other hand, a centrifugal supercharger will usually deliver boost at higher rpm's which will usually cause a bit less stress,

Ocd03gro I don’t agree with this about less stress on the motorcan you provide a link any link stating this and not one from the ProCharger/ centriweb site?

A motor imo is weaker the higher you go in rpms spinning a bearing throwing a rodsucking in a valve etc etcthe risk raises the higher the rpms so with the PH turbo and the X Charger you make full power by 5300 -5500 rpms unlike a centri at 6000 -6200 rpms so you could shift at 5500-5700 and be at full power if one wanted.

I actually wrote up a big huge explanation of this with a few other guys on the cobalt forums. I will find that link for you later tonight, i have to go to work sorry.

Boost pressure is measured at the intake manifold. Without porting and polishing, (polishing is a bad idea anyway) any given intake manifold pressure will flow the same CFM through the six intake ports and into the cylinders. CFM is a measure of flow, and flow is flow, no matter how the path is configured, or what the driving force is. This means that for any given pressure flow is constant - the higher the pressure, the higher the flow and vice versa. If the intake manifold pressure is 9 psi, it doesn't matter if that 9 psi came though a turbo with an intercooler or a twin screw supercharger - it is what it is. Today's turbos do build power earlier, but this is a result of lighter impellers (which spool up earlier) or better fan designs (which move more air at lower RPMs). Once again, for any given restriction (resistance) the same pressure will produce the same flow no matter how it's produced. In the case of our Mustangs, for the constant intake manifold size, increased pressure will result in increased flow - it's physics.

Hey Mdnyt.
I was hoping someone would put it in simple terms like you did. I would say almost exactly the same thing.
However, the parasitic draw of a twin screw sc is more than that of a turbo ifonly slightly more in the higher revs.
SoRWHP/RWT yields are obviously a bit different or less in the case of an xc.
Personally I like turbo's on others cars but not on mine. Too much plumbing for me.
Mine is definately going to beboosted with an xc! Simple, direct,clean and it looks and soundsgreat too!

mdnyrider 8ccd3gro is correct in what heposted aboutCFM it does matter,if oneflows more CFMthan the other it will produce morepower an example of this is when the Paxton Novi 2000 first came out it outflowed in CFM Vortechs high end unit (at that time)and produced more rwhp and rwtq on the same car/motor. So the CFM a head unit canflow does matter.

ORIGINAL: MdnytRider

Boost pressure is measured at the intake manifold. Without porting and polishing, (polishing is a bad idea anyway) any given intake manifold pressure will flow the same CFM through the six intake ports and into the cylinders. CFM is a measure of flow, and flow is flow, no matter how the path is configured, or what the driving force is. This means that for any given pressure flow is constant - the higher the pressure, the higher the flow and vice versa. If the intake manifold pressure is 9 psi, it doesn't matter if that 9 psi came though a turbo with an intercooler or a twin screw supercharger - it is what it is. Today's turbos do build power earlier, but this is a result of lighter impellers (which spool up earlier) or better fan designs (which move more air at lower RPMs). Once again, for any given restriction (resistance) the same pressure will produce the same flow no matter how it's produced. In the case of our Mustangs, for the constant intake manifold size, increased pressure will result in increased flow - it's physics.


you are oversimplifying my friend....what you seriously think that 9psi on an ati would produce the same numbers as the 9 psi on this turbo setup if it werent for the parasitic loss? so you really beleive 100 ft lbs is lost to parasitic loss....? btw a twin screw replaces the intake manifold, just so you know. There are many, many other factors here that you are not accounting for.

they will be close to the same rwhp, but not rwtq, since the turbo spools so early (and thats where torque is made)

edit: again this is if parasitic loss didnt exist

ORIGINAL: fazm

they will be close to the same rwhp, but not rwtq, since the turbo spools so early (and thats where torque is made)


you would still be losing probably close to 100hp. Flow characteristics matter.

well lets see, most blowers eat around 50-80rwhp

justin got his gf's vortech v6 to about 315rwhp on 8psi and he is a hell of a tuner
mine hit 371rwhp on 9psi
315+50 = 365

10rwhp with 1 psi, is pretty close (even though im around 18rwhp/psi) (205rwhp to 371rwhp is 165rwhp gain 165/9= 18.33)

Absolutely flow characteristics matter - and this is part of what accounts for the large difference between RPMs of max HP for different power adders. But for any given RPM, 6 psi at the intake manifold (where boost is measured) is the same CFM to the cylinders no matter who's doing the boosting.

Whats CFM stand for?

Just a couple links here
How many CFM's does matter ( one of my old favorite forums)
those blower all put out different cfms so of course one is going to make more power than the other. as far as size goes they'll vary greatly.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=619605&page=1


Low parasitic losson some blowers
Why do you need a bypass valve? The best kept secret in forced induction is the little known bypass valve. This small valve, when properly installed between the supercharger and the air throttle body, allows the supercharger to become extremely efficient in terms of economy and parasitic power loss. Our M90 supercharger uses less than 1/3 of 1 HP at 60 MPH cruising. The bypass is operated by a vacuum actuator control unit that is normally closed. When vacuum is high (idle-cruising) the actuator opens the bypass valve, equalizing the vacuum pressure throughout the system. When boost is required (accelerating) the vacuum is decreased and the bypass valve instantly closes, causing pressure to increase into the cylinders. This equalized vacuum condition virtually eliminates the normal parasitic power loss of a forced induction system.http://www.magnusonproducts.com/bypass.htm

ORIGINAL: Krazer

Just a couple links here
CFM blowers ( one of my old favorite forums)
those blower all put out different cfms so of course one is going to make more power than the other. as far as size goes they'll vary greatly.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=619605&page=1


Low loss parasitic on some blowers
Why do you need a bypass valve? The best kept secret in forced induction is the little known bypass valve. This small valve, when properly installed between the supercharger and the air throttle body, allows the supercharger to become extremely efficient in terms of economy and parasitic power loss. Our M90 supercharger uses less than 1/3 of 1 HP at 60 MPH cruising. The bypass is operated by a vacuum actuator control unit that is normally closed. When vacuum is high (idle-cruising) the actuator opens the bypass valve, equalizing the vacuum pressure throughout the system. When boost is required (accelerating) the vacuum is decreased and the bypass valve instantly closes, causing pressure to increase into the cylinders. This equalized vacuum condition virtually eliminates the normal parasitic power loss of a forced induction system.http://www.magnusonproducts.com/bypass.htm



well that is at cruising levels....when the blower actually starts boosting it will use alot more power, but still not even close to 100hp.

ya it uses little hp at cruising, but at WOT its using a ton

a turbo setup over the eaton on a 2003 cobra yields 80-110 more rwhp at the same boost level

ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro

ORIGINAL: Krazer

Just a couple links here
CFM blowers ( one of my old favorite forums)
those blower all put out different cfms so of course one is going to make more power than the other. as far as size goes they'll vary greatly.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=619605&page=1


Low loss parasitic on some blowers
Why do you need a bypass valve? The best kept secret in forced induction is the little known bypass valve. This small valve, when properly installed between the supercharger and the air throttle body, allows the supercharger to become extremely efficient in terms of economy and parasitic power loss. Our M90 supercharger uses less than 1/3 of 1 HP at 60 MPH cruising. The bypass is operated by a vacuum actuator control unit that is normally closed. When vacuum is high (idle-cruising) the actuator opens the bypass valve, equalizing the vacuum pressure throughout the system. When boost is required (accelerating) the vacuum is decreased and the bypass valve instantly closes, causing pressure to increase into the cylinders. This equalized vacuum condition virtually eliminates the normal parasitic power loss of a forced induction system.http://www.magnusonproducts.com/bypass.htm



well that is at cruising levels....when the blower actually starts boosting it will use alot more power, but still not even close to 100hp.




8cd03go did you miss this part see below quote?
They are talking under boost but I know hard to believe.

[quote]When boost is required (accelerating) the vacuum is decreased and the bypass valve instantly closes, causing pressure to increase into the cylinders. This equalized vacuum condition virtually eliminates the normal parasitic power loss of a forced induction system.[/qoute]

ORIGINAL: fazm

ya it uses little hp at cruising, but at WOT its using a ton



Fazm they are talking under boost but agree its hard to believe.

ya i know its hard to believe, because i have an 03 terminator too, and trust me it robs incredible power with the blower, why else would a turbo setup make over 100 more rwhp with the same boost level?

heres the dyno chart for anyone that had any doubt.

371rwhp, 402rwtq, 9psi

local://upfiles/31988/F812AFDD9B37445D8E483106F4C1D27A.jpg

local://upfiles/31988/2549F5311D934442858982993499833A.jpg

hey bro does the turbo 6 feel as strong or stronger than ur cobra? cuz i'm going to get a 03 cobra too from this guy up in scottsdale. it has 25k on the tach, and garage kept and all tht other happy horse crap. but i'm going to get a good mechanis to look over it really well for me ya know b4 i make my final choice.

it currently pulls harder than the cobra yes, but im putting a 2.8" pulley and tuning the cobra so its faster.

Thats crazy man so you can take and if not, keep up witha stock 03 term Cobra!? lol

Thatwould bother me when I went to bed. lol