........ Scary numbers for a stock 4.0! Anyone got high mileage on their blown 05 yet to compare with? .......
55k miles half of them blown.......... I am not putting out those turbo numbers, but S/C's are harder on the motors even at lower outputs...... running 10psi....
now why would sc's or xc's be harder on and ENGINE than a turbo where boost is cocnerned? Also do you mean half of the engines are blown as in ruined or blown as in boosted? Thanks
Half of those miles have been "blown" as in boosted.....
[/quote] now why would sc's or xc's be harder on and ENGINE than a turbo where boost is cocnerned? Also do you mean half of the engines are blown as in ruined or blown as in boosted? Thanks [/quote]
From what i've been reading on these forums boost don't really hurt the car its more detenation. You need a good dyno tune and you should be fine. Correct? A turbo is better for your engine cause your not using the engine to make the boost. Its not pully driven. My motor is taking more stress at 6-7 psi procharged to make the boost than his is at 9 psi turbo'd. Turbo just uses wasted exhaust. It geinus really. I wish the kit was avalibale when I was deciding what system I wanted but it wasn't so I went the PC route. I'll tell you this though. My next car in the future will be turbo'd. Things just make crazy tq! lol
< Message edited by ricklmesa@cox.net -- 2/24/2007 12:29:02 PM >
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Procharger 298whp 299wtq @7 psi wintertune 301whp 300 wtq @9-10 psi summertune JBA Exhaust (X pipe) JBA Headers ADC Custom Tune Steeda Shifter CHE LCA's, UCA CHE K-member Brace(to be installed) 3:73's & tlok PH Driveshaft
if you got it there at ph i believe its 6k including install if someone brought it into my shop, i would charge about $800-1000 to install it, then expect about 300-500 for a custom tune if u wanted one.
Gauges too. Gauges bit me in the ass after I bought my kit but If you wanna be safe $275 for the AEM wideband air/fuel and about $40 for a boost gauge. $120ish for a good pod or $60 for a cheap one like mine that don't stay on sometimes lol
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Procharger 298whp 299wtq @7 psi wintertune 301whp 300 wtq @9-10 psi summertune JBA Exhaust (X pipe) JBA Headers ADC Custom Tune Steeda Shifter CHE LCA's, UCA CHE K-member Brace(to be installed) 3:73's & tlok PH Driveshaft
Isn't it the P1turbo or something like that. I think its a good quality one from what I remember reading in the past on these forums. But someone will chime in with the exact corrent responce
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Procharger 298whp 299wtq @7 psi wintertune 301whp 300 wtq @9-10 psi summertune JBA Exhaust (X pipe) JBA Headers ADC Custom Tune Steeda Shifter CHE LCA's, UCA CHE K-member Brace(to be installed) 3:73's & tlok PH Driveshaft
When I was looking into one of those kits, they wanted my car for a week.
Down the road, I may end up getting another Mustang, maybe another year or so. Maybe I'll use my s/c'd one as my daily driver and get the new one turbo'd and use it as my weekend/track car!!!
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Kenwood DPX-501 with Sirius - PH DS - CHE LCAs - CDC Billet Grill - CA Dream Hood - T-LOK - Hankook 255/50ZR17 - MRT AeroTurbine - CHE STB - GT front bumper
X-Charger #20 298whp 313wtq 10.7psi - Mustang Dyno - Tuned by Jerry Wroblewski
When I was looking into one of those kits, they wanted my car for a week.
Down the road, I may end up getting another Mustang, maybe another year or so. Maybe I'll use my s/c'd one as my daily driver and get the new one turbo'd and use it as my weekend/track car!!!
AMEN to that!!!!!!! I know if i get another stang it will be a cobra...wether it be a 03-04 or 07 when they finally decide to sell at or below MSRP. Theirs just no comparison b/w the torque of a Twin-Screw Kenne or whipple to any other s/c or turbo
< Message edited by Trill Gear Head -- 2/24/2007 2:44:16 PM >
yes I hope so. I cant wait till I get my car back next week. I am like a kid in a candy store.
I would get some DR's, 20s are nice, but will hurt your effective gear ratio. If you are an auto, look into a TCI street fighter or other torque converter for the 8. A good torque converter should be good for 2 to 4 10ths. I'd love to see some pics of your car. I really like the look of the S197 saleens.
I know about the 20's I will be getting some 18's soon. Its 5 speed. As soon as I get back in town and pick up my car I will post some pics of the car,dyno and turbo set up
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2006 Saleen #560 Hellion Powered If you need to know more, line them up!
When I was looking into one of those kits, they wanted my car for a week.
Down the road, I may end up getting another Mustang, maybe another year or so. Maybe I'll use my s/c'd one as my daily driver and get the new one turbo'd and use it as my weekend/track car!!!
That would be the shizz! I'd want to drive the turbo around somedays though lol
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Procharger 298whp 299wtq @7 psi wintertune 301whp 300 wtq @9-10 psi summertune JBA Exhaust (X pipe) JBA Headers ADC Custom Tune Steeda Shifter CHE LCA's, UCA CHE K-member Brace(to be installed) 3:73's & tlok PH Driveshaft
now why would sc's or xc's be harder on and ENGINE than a turbo where boost is cocnerned? Also do you mean half of the engines are blown as in ruined or blown as in boosted? Thanks
From what i've been reading on these forums boost don't really hurt the car its more detenation. You need a good dyno tune and you should be fine. Correct? A turbo is better for your engine cause your not using the engine to make the boost. Its not pully driven. My motor is taking more stress at 6-7 psi procharged to make the boost than his is at 9 psi turbo'd. Turbo just uses wasted exhaust. It geinus really. I wish the kit was avalibale when I was deciding what system I wanted but it wasn't so I went the PC route. I'll tell you this though. My next car in the future will be turbo'd. Things just make crazy tq! lol
well this is my first post back in a week since i was in colorado, so bear with me here, but i will try to explain best i can. People read too much into psi. Psi really means nothing. It is CFM or cubic feet per minute that matters. The p61 (i beleive that is the turbo powerhouse uses correct me if i am wrong) from what i have seen so far seems to greatly outflow the ati head unit in your kit and the vortech head unit. This means at 6 psi on all the systems (procharger, vortech, and powerhouse) the turbo will actually be pushing more air volumetrically. Same pressure levels, but more air from the turbo. I believe the ati outflows the vortech head unit by a bit too. Plus pressure drops from different intercoolers and such can factor in and change CFM. Blowers leach power to make power, so you will naturally see slightly lower numbers if the flow is the same. Now, at the same power numbers, a blower will put more stress at redline because really the motor is feeling the stress of slightly higher power numbers because of the power being robbed by the blower itself. On the other hand, a centrifugal supercharger will usually deliver boost at higher rpm's which will usually cause a bit less stress, but since that is dependant on how the turbo in question is set up, we wont use that as a factor. Really, turbo's can make the same power as a blower with less stress if set up properly, but as you can see it will cost alot more. Don't kid yourself, this setup at 9 psi making the power numbers it is, is far more stress than your setup depending on the tune, but likely (not necessarily) your motor will last longer on your current setup.
basically here is the deal-
boost is not measured in the cylinder when you are talking pulleys for blowers and wastegate pressure for turbos. Since the cylinder is a constant size, if the CFM is the same from a blower at 6 psi and a turbo at 6 psi, the pressure will be exaclty the same inside the cylinder, the difference will be that the blower will be robbing power to create that pressure, so it will make a bit less power, so for example (a very rough example, do not take this as fact) a properly setup turbo kit making say 320ish rwhp will generate generally the same stress on the motor as a blower setup at 280ish rwhp. do not use boost pressure to estimate stress. At high boost levels it will make a difference, and even at low levels it will make a very small difference, but what you want to look at here is power levels. Knocking/detonation can happen with any setup and is TERRIBLE on f/i setups especially with hypereutectic pistons, you just want a very good tune to try to keep away from it.
this post probably made 0 sense to alot of you. I wrote over the course of like an hour coming back and forth from the phone/food/AIM, so if you dont understand this and really want to know, just toss me a pm and i will explain it in detail, and if you have AIM i could draw you some charts on paint or something if you really want to learn about it.
EDIT: i said psi means nothing in the beginning....that's not true, but in this regard, it means very little.
< Message edited by 8cd03gro -- 2/25/2007 1:49:05 AM >
You contradict yourself. In the first paragraph you state that for the same PSI, the turbo flows more air: "This means at 6 psi on all the systems (procharger, vortech, and powerhouse) the turbo will actually be pushing more air volumetrically. Same pressure levels, but more air from the turbo."
Then in the 3rd paragraph you said: "Since the cylinder is a constant size, if the CFM is the same from a blower at 6 psi and a turbo at 6 psi, the pressure will be exactly the same inside the cylinder,"
The second one is correct. As far as boost and the motor are concerned, 6 psi is 6 psi, 9 is 9, etc. For any given cylinder volume, more air pressure means more oxygen molecules are contained in the mix. Its really the O2 we're concerned with, - which is the same theory behind nitrous oxide injection - more oxygen to bond with the fuel makes for a better explosion in the cylinder. For a constant amount of fuel, the increased amount of air will cause a lean condition at higher pressures - which is where a good tune, and higher pressure injectors come in. Even for the correct air/fuel ratio, the increase in heat on the compression stroke due to the friction between the molecules of the already compressed (by the FI) mixture can cause it to explode early - while the piston is still traveling upward. This is detonation. This is why FI engines must run the highest octane fuel available - higher octane fuels are harder to burn, decreasing the chance for detonation.
It's the parasitic loss inherent in S/Cs (it takes HP to drive the pulley) that makes them less efficient than turbos overall, but the fact that the power comes on quicker (since you don't have to wait for exhaust pressure to build) is a good trade-off.
now why would sc's or xc's be harder on and ENGINE than a turbo where boost is cocnerned? Also do you mean half of the engines are blown as in ruined or blown as in boosted? Thanks
From what i've been reading on these forums boost don't really hurt the car its more detenation. You need a good dyno tune and you should be fine. Correct? A turbo is better for your engine cause your not using the engine to make the boost. Its not pully driven. My motor is taking more stress at 6-7 psi procharged to make the boost than his is at 9 psi turbo'd. Turbo just uses wasted exhaust. It geinus really. I wish the kit was avalibale when I was deciding what system I wanted but it wasn't so I went the PC route. I'll tell you this though. My next car in the future will be turbo'd. Things just make crazy tq! lol
well this is my first post back in a week since i was in colorado, so bear with me here, but i will try to explain best i can. People read too much into psi. Psi really means nothing. It is CFM or cubic feet per minute that matters. The p61 (i beleive that is the turbo powerhouse uses correct me if i am wrong) from what i have seen so far seems to greatly outflow the ati head unit in your kit and the vortech head unit. This means at 6 psi on all the systems (procharger, vortech, and powerhouse) the turbo will actually be pushing more air volumetrically. Same pressure levels, but more air from the turbo. I believe the ati outflows the vortech head unit by a bit too. Plus pressure drops from different intercoolers and such can factor in and change CFM. Blowers leach power to make power, so you will naturally see slightly lower numbers if the flow is the same. Now, at the same power numbers, a blower will put more stress at redline because really the motor is feeling the stress of slightly higher power numbers because of the power being robbed by the blower itself. On the other hand, a centrifugal supercharger will usually deliver boost at higher rpm's which will usually cause a bit less stress, but since that is dependant on how the turbo in question is set up, we wont use that as a factor. Really, turbo's can make the same power as a blower with less stress if set up properly, but as you can see it will cost alot more. Don't kid yourself, this setup at 9 psi making the power numbers it is, is far more stress than your setup depending on the tune, but likely (not necessarily) your motor will last longer on your current setup.
basically here is the deal-
boost is not measured in the cylinder when you are talking pulleys for blowers and wastegate pressure for turbos. Since the cylinder is a constant size, if the CFM is the same from a blower at 6 psi and a turbo at 6 psi, the pressure will be exaclty the same inside the cylinder, the difference will be that the blower will be robbing power to create that pressure, so it will make a bit less power, so for example (a very rough example, do not take this as fact) a properly setup turbo kit making say 320ish rwhp will generate generally the same stress on the motor as a blower setup at 280ish rwhp. do not use boost pressure to estimate stress. At high boost levels it will make a difference, and even at low levels it will make a very small difference, but what you want to look at here is power levels. Knocking/detonation can happen with any setup and is TERRIBLE on f/i setups especially with hypereutectic pistons, you just want a very good tune to try to keep away from it.
this post probably made 0 sense to alot of you. I wrote over the course of like an hour coming back and forth from the phone/food/AIM, so if you dont understand this and really want to know, just toss me a pm and i will explain it in detail, and if you have AIM i could draw you some charts on paint or something if you really want to learn about it.
EDIT: i said psi means nothing in the beginning....that's not true, but in this regard, it means very little.
Ocd03gro few things I agree psi is not everything (see link also stated that here http://4.0c.ollective.com/showthread.php?t=5996&page=2 and agree it is also the power the motor is making along with psi and not just psi only but psi is a important limiting factor on how high you can go safely on this motor on pump gas..
The other thing your talking about in your example is parasitic loss but your example of 320 rwhp vs 280 rwhp is not correct for all blower types. On the new roots type S/C newer design it is way less than that amount in your example but yes with superchargers there is a parasitic loss of about 1% so on some superchargers I agree but not all s/c are as high per your quote.
quote:
On the other hand, a centrifugal supercharger will usually deliver boost at higher rpm's which will usually cause a bit less stress,
Ocd03gro I don’t agree with this about less stress on the motor can you provide a link any link stating this and not one from the ProCharger/ centri web site?
A motor imo is weaker the higher you go in rpms spinning a bearing throwing a rod sucking in a valve etc etc the risk raises the higher the rpms so with the PH turbo and the X Charger you make full power by 5300 -5500 rpms unlike a centri at 6000 -6200 rpms so you could shift at 5500-5700 and be at full power if one wanted.
< Message edited by Krazer -- 2/25/2007 1:25:27 PM >
me and friend were talking about CFM last night, in basic terms, the size of the impeller on the turbo/ centrifugal supercharger is what determines the CFM.
You contradict yourself. In the first paragraph you state that for the same PSI, the turbo flows more air: "This means at 6 psi on all the systems (procharger, vortech, and powerhouse) the turbo will actually be pushing more air volumetrically. Same pressure levels, but more air from the turbo."
Then in the 3rd paragraph you said: "Since the cylinder is a constant size, if the CFM is the same from a blower at 6 psi and a turbo at 6 psi, the pressure will be exactly the same inside the cylinder,"
The second one is correct. As far as boost and the motor are concerned, 6 psi is 6 psi, 9 is 9, etc. For any given cylinder volume, more air pressure means more oxygen molecules are contained in the mix. Its really the O2 we're concerned with, - which is the same theory behind nitrous oxide injection - more oxygen to bond with the fuel makes for a better explosion in the cylinder. For a constant amount of fuel, the increased amount of air will cause a lean condition at higher pressures - which is where a good tune, and higher pressure injectors come in. Even for the correct air/fuel ratio, the increase in heat on the compression stroke due to the friction between the molecules of the already compressed (by the FI) mixture can cause it to explode early - while the piston is still traveling upward. This is detonation. This is why FI engines must run the highest octane fuel available - higher octane fuels are harder to burn, decreasing the chance for detonation.
It's the parasitic loss inherent in S/Cs (it takes HP to drive the pulley) that makes them less efficient than turbos overall, but the fact that the power comes on quicker (since you don't have to wait for exhaust pressure to build) is a good trade-off.
read it again i don't contradict myself at all. the first part i was stating that the turbo flows better, which it does in this case, which means it will flow a larger amount of air at a lower measured psi. These pressures are NOT measured in the cylidner which was my point in the second part. Since all the piping will be different sizes, and the turbo flows better, 10 psi on a centri may be roughly the same airflow as 9 psi on the turbo. Since i don't have flow charts for any of them, this is just a basic idea, but that is what is going on here. You are reading my statements totally wrong. Most of you don't realize that i could run a very small turbo at 10 psi with the even at the same temps as a larger turbo at 8 psi, and they may actually flow exactly the same cfm which would cause the same or close to the same power at peak. Obviously there are more factors, but you are misunderstanding.
Your last comment about power building early....a properly setup turbo with today's technology will have almost nill lag and will be more efficient. Peak boost at i beleive 2900 is where the ph kit makes it, is faster than the centri's make boost on the 10 psi pulleys.
quote:
Ocd03gro few things I agree psi is not everything (see link also stated that here http://4.0c.ollective.com/showthread.php?t=5996&page=2 and agree it is also the power the motor is making along with psi and not just psi only but psi is a important limiting factor on how high you can go safely on this motor on pump gas..
The other thing your talking about in your example is parasitic loss but your example of 320 rwhp vs 280 rwhp is not correct for all blower types. On the new roots type S/C newer design it is way less than that amount in your example but yes with superchargers there is a parasitic loss of about 1% so on some superchargers I agree but not all s/c are as high per your quote. That is why i said don't take it as fact, it is just a rough example, and it will change depending on the setup.
quote:
On the other hand, a centrifugal supercharger will usually deliver boost at higher rpm's which will usually cause a bit less stress,
Ocd03gro I don’t agree with this about less stress on the motor can you provide a link any link stating this and not one from the ProCharger/ centri web site?
A motor imo is weaker the higher you go in rpms spinning a bearing throwing a rod sucking in a valve etc etc the risk raises the higher the rpms so with the PH turbo and the X Charger you make full power by 5300 -5500 rpms unlike a centri at 6000 -6200 rpms so you could shift at 5500-5700 and be at full power if one wanted.
I actually wrote up a big huge explanation of this with a few other guys on the cobalt forums. I will find that link for you later tonight, i have to go to work sorry.
< Message edited by 8cd03gro -- 2/25/2007 2:30:37 PM >
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RE: turbo #'s in - 
