Justin not disagreeing with what your saying vs your tune but few things here that X Charger dyno posted above is not a custom dyno tune either and is the first X Charger dyno on a manual we seen. I like to see the numbers ( with a little work) with a custom dyno tune I mean I have seen Vortech dynos at 9-10 psi pull around 280 rwhp 270rwtq from before a custom tune.
I was also just debating scrming on the 60’only as he was bragging about his is better but he was comparing his 10psi Vortech with 4.10’s to a X Charger running the 3.0 pulley (6-8psi) running 373’s. Imo not a fair comparison let’s compare a X Charger running the 2.8 pulley (8-9.7 psi) running 4.10’s same tires same track everything else being equal mod/setup. I think a X Charger with a custom tune that’s tuned off idle ( per your post on tuning excellent write up BTW) would pull a better 60’ I mean no big deal but lets see a fair comparison before we brag thats all I am saying and debating previously in this thread.
The other thing I just like to mention that is one hell of a tune you did at 7psi most dyno data I seen tuners can’t get those kinds of numbers at 7psi even 9-10psi on a Vortech. your one of the top tier tuners imo just look at your other results!
As i've said it BEFORE. Nav's car and my car are basically identical..
1) Nav has 3.73 but was running shorter MT ET (VERY STICKY). I had 4.10s but was running a TALLER tires (M&H's are so-so...). The difference in our tires gave us both around a 3.95 ratio... so gearing is not a factor
2) So what if I'm running 10 PSI... that's how my Vortech came... for $30 I've now upgraded to 12PSI... your going to have to spend a lot more money than that to bump the boost on the X-charger... you'll have to add water/meth...
3) I've also heard people saying that I'm a better driver than Nav... what a joke! Nav definitely has more seat time then I do! I went to the track once in July and then not again to October... I was busy collecting car show trophies while Nav was collect racing trophies!
4) Now we have a very respected tuner saying he can setup a Vortech to perform just like an X... and you still don't want to believe it... Get over it... The X is a very nice system and offers good performance... but if we meet at a stop light, don't think your going to walk me just because you have a better looking dyno sheet...
LOL here we go again this will be my last post on this and I was only talking 60' above.
1.IMO for a true comparison have to have the same gears and tires none of this a ratio around or condition of different tires about, along with what I posted above setup wise also.
2.I am not talking about using water/meth injection in my last response to Justin just a custom tune and move up to the 2.8 pulley 8-9.7psi per the 60" and that only cost $100.
3.John you have 2 years of seat time in your 2005 Mustang and I believe a way more runs that Nav in his 2006 Mustang.
4.I am not disagreeing with Justin but also pointed out and would like to look at the X Charger manual dyno curve once a custom dyno is performed like Justin has on his manual and then compare it wouldn't you agree that would a more fair comparison. Now if you want to also throw the water injection which is the X Charger intercooler per say in on top of that in, this alone has shown gains of 20rwhp and 20rwtq. For the record the above dyno on the X Charger was with no water injection.
I never said I would walk you but let me point out before you removed the cats you were running a tlok and gears at 10psi with your Vortech you best ET was 13.30's bscotti with an auto running an X Charger with an open rear end and no gears ran 13.20's ET! I would think if bscotti had a t-lok and gears that X Chager car would see high 12's.
I am not saying one system is better than the other just pointing out a few things and discussing them but like I said my last post on this.
Actually the best run I had with the cats was a 13.26.. I also had a 1/8 run of 8.374... which is about a 13.0... Also I found out in January that those runs in fact were on an open diff... my rear end was messed up... and my trac-lok's clutches were completely gone...
I looked at the installation manual of the Xcharger and it seems like I can do the install myself. Is it possible? My experience is very minimal from installing the CAI and the JBA headers. I really like how it looks under the engine.
If you take your time and follow the manual you should be OK, most people who buy the X do it them self. Cayuse over on the 4.0 **** made a video of out group install and will make you a copy really cheap, it would be a very good tutorial.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FastMustang06
I looked at the installation manual of the Xcharger and it seems like I can do the install myself. Is it possible? My experience is very minimal from installing the CAI and the JBA headers. I really like how it looks under the engine.
_____________________________
X Charger, 5 speed manual, Hurst shifter,T-Lock/410's, Navigation GT takeoff kit, dual exhaust, 17" Bullitts, Eibach springs, front/rear swaybars, billet fuel door
Can you pm me the 4.0 site and who to contact? I would really love to do it myself 'cause it can save me $$$! I live in a town where I have to drive 100 miles to find an installer. At first, I was interested with the Procharger which will cost me around $5800 for the kit+install and the gauges. I already have the money but after looking at the Xcharger install manual I felt confident enough that I can do the install myself. I may need some X-men for advice and hints though regarding the install.
If I can make it through this, I think anybody can do the install on your own too!
I dont know why everyone always says the X is so easy to install, it a vortech really that hard? I have a friend with limited car knowledge and he installed a nonintercooled vortech on his 96 mustang. He boutght the kit used so not sure how good of dirctions he had, but he did it all himself in 2 days.
I am looking at maybe getting a tubro kit in the future. I have access to a lift and asked him if we could do it. He said with the lift we could easily do it in less than 2 days by ourselves.
Now I am not an expert, but if an easy install only equates to 2-3 hrs less install time than the competition it might not be worth the extra $$ and the less HP.
I dont know why everyone always says the X is so easy to install, it a vortech really that hard? I have a friend with limited car knowledge and he installed a nonintercooled vortech on his 96 mustang. He boutght the kit used so not sure how good of dirctions he had, but he did it all himself in 2 days.
I am looking at maybe getting a tubro kit in the future. I have access to a lift and asked him if we could do it. He said with the lift we could easily do it in less than 2 days by ourselves.
Now I am not an expert, but if an easy install only equates to 2-3 hrs less install time than the competition it might not be worth the extra $$ and the less HP.
Tilt no doubt if you want to take the 4.0 to higher rwhp and if you want higher psi (11,12 psi etc ) than the X Charger the turbo and centri are the way to go, afixer said the X Charger is slower and he owns one. ;)
IMO I would disagree with afixer at 10psi (and under) vs a Vortech mod for mod regarding 1/4 mile ET's. :)
IMO I wanted to stay between 300-325rwhp same with torque on the 4.0 and under 10psi on the stock internals and I really love the looks of the X Charger (roots type supercharger look) and those reasons were a big part of my decision so I choose the X Charger system.
But on install you do not have to drill into the motor for an oil line tap for return for the X Charger on the Vortech you do some guys just don’t like to do that myself included plus you have the intercooler that has to be installed little more work, and IMO if I went Vortech/ProCharger no doubt I would go with an intercooler per plans for higher psi.
They really are all good systems people have to just choose what system fits there needs for there plans and on how much power they want to take the 4.0 up to, and all are really good choices to choose from just pick what you want and like.
To the other guy who asked yes a supercharger would void your warr on the engine, trans ,clutch if manual and rearend.
< Message edited by Krazer -- 3/25/2007 5:39:54 PM >
krazer i say slower as a joke! like you when i saw the kit that was it for me just like my car . i loved the body before the motor. i got a six cause thats what i could walk up to write a check and drive it off the same day. once i got the custom tune the car was fine. then of course the mod but hit and i was hooked. remember i got my car on feb 15, 2005 guys like scremin, Rygen, Fazm, myself and others had nothing. the only stuff was for the v8 we would get the typical " noone mod's a 6" thats what i kept getting from diablo . finally the xcal was released. when chris johnson did the forst tune on my car for the X at magneson he looked at my tuner and said where the heck did you get this. it was a beta unit , and he gave me a new updated one. that was pretty cool. the vortches and prochargers have been around for a while and have many dealers it would seam. then this guy that had been doing a nice kit for the ranger and explorer 4.0 caught a few of our attention. so we bugged him and buged him. he finally decided to see if the kit was do able. he had a kit kindof ready and was going to go down to magneson and test it out but the car he was using was a manual. as luck had it i had just talked to him and he asked me if i wanted to come by and watch the install. i said ok. then later that day he called me and said he needed an auto and would i be willing to be the test mule. that was in april of 06. turned out that the auto sits alittle higher than the manual and i had some minor rub issues. from 400 miles apart we worked thru it and he started shipping a few months later. now we have about 30 plus units out not to mention the 100s of rangers and explorers. this kit is in its infancy and i am sure as feedback is jiven to doug and dave. numbers will rise. i myself am very happy with the smooth power band i have. the x will do very well this year i am counting on it! as far as the install . we did 3 in 9 hours dave and i did mine in 5 hoours others have averaged from 7 to 14 . the kit can be installed in a day thats been proven. and no drilling of the block or possible metal shaving in the pan. i dont care how much grease one uses drilling into a sealed motor is just wrong! to all good luck what ever you go with im happy and i am sure you will be too. its all a matter of preferance!
krazer i say slower as a joke! like you when i saw the kit that was it for me just like my car . i loved the body before the motor. i got a six cause thats what i could walk up to write a check and drive it off the same day. once i got the custom tune the car was fine. then of course the mod but hit and i was hooked. remember i got my car on feb 15, 2005 guys like scremin, Rygen, Fazm, myself and others had nothing. the only stuff was for the v8 we would get the typical " noone mod's a 6" thats what i kept getting from diablo . finally the xcal was released. when chris johnson did the forst tune on my car for the X at magneson he looked at my tuner and said where the heck did you get this. it was a beta unit , and he gave me a new updated one. that was pretty cool. the vortches and prochargers have been around for a while and have many dealers it would seam. then this guy that had been doing a nice kit for the ranger and explorer 4.0 caught a few of our attention. so we bugged him and buged him. he finally decided to see if the kit was do able. he had a kit kindof ready and was going to go down to magneson and test it out but the car he was using was a manual. as luck had it i had just talked to him and he asked me if i wanted to come by and watch the install. i said ok. then later that day he called me and said he needed an auto and would i be willing to be the test mule. that was in april of 06. turned out that the auto sits alittle higher than the manual and i had some minor rub issues. from 400 miles apart we worked thru it and he started shipping a few months later. now we have about 30 plus units out not to mention the 100s of rangers and explorers. this kit is in its infancy and i am sure as feedback is jiven to doug and dave. numbers will rise. i myself am very happy with the smooth power band i have. the x will do very well this year i am counting on it! as far as the install . we did 3 in 9 hours dave and i did mine in 5 hoours others have averaged from 7 to 14 . the kit can be installed in a day thats been proven. and no drilling of the block or possible metal shaving in the pan. i dont care how much grease one uses drilling into a sealed motor is just wrong! to all good luck what ever you go with im happy and i am sure you will be too. its all a matter of preferance!
Afixer I was just having some fun (smily faces) ha ha I was laughing after I typed that :) We should see high 12's for sure very repsectable but wouldn't that be something if we see around 12.50's -60's only running 9.7 psi on a X Charger in the future. :)
Tha was a great read I enjoyed it and the liitle history lesson on the X pretty cool thanks for sharing that now I get the godfather thing.
<SNIP> possible metal shaving in the pan. i dont care how much grease one uses drilling into a sealed motor is just wrong! <SNIP>
Now, no one tell Vortech this (and use this information at YOUR OWN RISK! This is my disclaimer!!!) take a look at my oil return... sorry for the crappy picture... but notice.. There is a spot on the engine block, right above the oil pan on the driver side that looks like it it's sole purpose is for an oil return line!!! So that's exactly what we used it for... Simply drop the oil pan, drill and tap the hole... Now I'm 100% sure we got all of the shavings! 20,000 miles with no problems what so ever! Also it survived a VERY COLD winter without a block heater!!! We had many sub-zero days here!
<SNIP> possible metal shaving in the pan. i dont care how much grease one uses drilling into a sealed motor is just wrong! <SNIP>
Now, no one tell Vortech this (and use this information at YOUR OWN RISK! This is my disclaimer!!!) take a look at my oil return... sorry for the crappy picture... but notice.. There is a spot on the engine block, right above the oil pan on the driver side that looks like it it's sole purpose is for an oil return line!!! So that's exactly what we used it for... Simply drop the oil pan, drill and tap the hole... Now I'm 100% sure we got all of the shavings! 20,000 miles with no problems what so ever! Also it survived a VERY COLD winter without a block heater!!! We had many sub-zero days here!
here's my oil return:
Yea like you said do at your own risk and don't tell Vortech, you really don't want it that low you want it up higher so theres no problem with enough gravity in the return to drain it down properly and also higher up on the motor than that for gravity , imo I would not have done it there per that angle of the line but like I said that is just my opinion.
< Message edited by Krazer -- 3/27/2007 3:54:49 PM >
<SNIP> possible metal shaving in the pan. i dont care how much grease one uses drilling into a sealed motor is just wrong! <SNIP>
Now, no one tell Vortech this (and use this information at YOUR OWN RISK! This is my disclaimer!!!) take a look at my oil return... sorry for the crappy picture... but notice.. There is a spot on the engine block, right above the oil pan on the driver side that looks like it it's sole purpose is for an oil return line!!! So that's exactly what we used it for... Simply drop the oil pan, drill and tap the hole... Now I'm 100% sure we got all of the shavings! 20,000 miles with no problems what so ever! Also it survived a VERY COLD winter without a block heater!!! We had many sub-zero days here!
here's my oil return:
Yea like you said do at your own risk and don't tell Vortech, you really don't want it that low you want it up higher so theres no problem and enough gravity in the return to drain it down, imo I would not have done it there per that angle of the line but like I said that is just my opinion.
which is what Vortech will tell you... but if you know anything about fluid dynamics then you'll realize that makes no sense... The fluid will flow back into the engine with no problems... plus the fact when the car is running I doubt the oil is hard above the oil pan... Like I said 20,000 miles no issue... And like I said that spot is really designed for an oil return line...
Ok... I just found this better picture on Turbo_J's site... She used the EXACT SAME SPOT for her turbo... and if she's confident that spot will work then I know it will!
<SNIP> possible metal shaving in the pan. i dont care how much grease one uses drilling into a sealed motor is just wrong! <SNIP>
Now, no one tell Vortech this (and use this information at YOUR OWN RISK! This is my disclaimer!!!) take a look at my oil return... sorry for the crappy picture... but notice.. There is a spot on the engine block, right above the oil pan on the driver side that looks like it it's sole purpose is for an oil return line!!! So that's exactly what we used it for... Simply drop the oil pan, drill and tap the hole... Now I'm 100% sure we got all of the shavings! 20,000 miles with no problems what so ever! Also it survived a VERY COLD winter without a block heater!!! We had many sub-zero days here!
here's my oil return:
Yea like you said do at your own risk and don't tell Vortech, you really don't want it that low you want it up higher so theres no problem and enough gravity in the return to drain it down, imo I would not have done it there per that angle of the line but like I said that is just my opinion.
which is what Vortech will tell you... but if you know anything about fluid dynamics then you'll realize that makes no sense... The fluid will flow back into the engine with no problems... plus the fact when the car is running I doubt the oil is hard above the oil pan... Like I said 20,000 miles no issue... And like I said that spot is really designed for an oil return line...
Ok... I just found this better picture on Turbo_J's site... She used the EXACT SAME SPOT for her turbo... and if she's confident that spot will work then I know it will!
Ok John here is somthing else I was considering the turbo found a reputatble speed shop that builds (20 years exp) and install turbos, We discussed this on the return line in his opinion it was to low for the return line to be installed and wanted higher on the front cover of the motor is what he recommened without hesitation.
<SNIP> possible metal shaving in the pan. i dont care how much grease one uses drilling into a sealed motor is just wrong! <SNIP>
Now, no one tell Vortech this (and use this information at YOUR OWN RISK! This is my disclaimer!!!) take a look at my oil return... sorry for the crappy picture... but notice.. There is a spot on the engine block, right above the oil pan on the driver side that looks like it it's sole purpose is for an oil return line!!! So that's exactly what we used it for... Simply drop the oil pan, drill and tap the hole... Now I'm 100% sure we got all of the shavings! 20,000 miles with no problems what so ever! Also it survived a VERY COLD winter without a block heater!!! We had many sub-zero days here!
here's my oil return:
Yea like you said do at your own risk and don't tell Vortech, you really don't want it that low you want it up higher so theres no problem and enough gravity in the return to drain it down, imo I would not have done it there per that angle of the line but like I said that is just my opinion.
which is what Vortech will tell you... but if you know anything about fluid dynamics then you'll realize that makes no sense... The fluid will flow back into the engine with no problems... plus the fact when the car is running I doubt the oil is hard above the oil pan... Like I said 20,000 miles no issue... And like I said that spot is really designed for an oil return line...
Ok... I just found this better picture on Turbo_J's site... She used the EXACT SAME SPOT for her turbo... and if she's confident that spot will work then I know it will!
Ok John here is somthing else I was considering the turbo found a reputatble speed shop that builds (20 years exp) and install turbos, We discussed this on the return line in his opinion it was to low for the return line to be installed and wanted higher on the front cover of the motor is what he recommened without hesitation.
And Scott Hoag, who builds Mustangs for a living... (He brought you such Mustangs as the Bullitt and the Mach1!) believes that the oil return is perfectly fine where we've got it... Guess where their return line is on their turbo cars??? LOL! None of their cars have ever had and issue and neither has mine... remember there is pressure behind the return line... so it's not like it's strictly fed by gravity... and like I said, with the car running I bet there is hardly any oil above the pan...
<SNIP> possible metal shaving in the pan. i dont care how much grease one uses drilling into a sealed motor is just wrong! <SNIP>
Now, no one tell Vortech this (and use this information at YOUR OWN RISK! This is my disclaimer!!!) take a look at my oil return... sorry for the crappy picture... but notice.. There is a spot on the engine block, right above the oil pan on the driver side that looks like it it's sole purpose is for an oil return line!!! So that's exactly what we used it for... Simply drop the oil pan, drill and tap the hole... Now I'm 100% sure we got all of the shavings! 20,000 miles with no problems what so ever! Also it survived a VERY COLD winter without a block heater!!! We had many sub-zero days here!
here's my oil return:
Yea like you said do at your own risk and don't tell Vortech, you really don't want it that low you want it up higher so theres no problem and enough gravity in the return to drain it down, imo I would not have done it there per that angle of the line but like I said that is just my opinion.
which is what Vortech will tell you... but if you know anything about fluid dynamics then you'll realize that makes no sense... The fluid will flow back into the engine with no problems... plus the fact when the car is running I doubt the oil is hard above the oil pan... Like I said 20,000 miles no issue... And like I said that spot is really designed for an oil return line...
Ok... I just found this better picture on Turbo_J's site... She used the EXACT SAME SPOT for her turbo... and if she's confident that spot will work then I know it will!
Ok John here is somthing else I was considering the turbo found a reputatble speed shop that builds (20 years exp) and install turbos, We discussed this on the return line in his opinion it was to low for the return line to be installed and wanted higher on the front cover of the motor is what he recommened without hesitation.
And Scott Hoag, who builds Mustangs for a living... (He brought you such Mustangs as the Bullitt and the Mach1!) believes that the oil return is perfectly fine where we've got it... Guess where their return line is on their turbo cars??? LOL! None of their cars have ever had and issue and neither has mine... remember there is pressure behind the return line... so it's not like it's strictly fed by gravity... and like I said, with the car running I bet there is hardly any oil above the pan...
Your turn...
Your turn.. <-------lmao that was funny
Ok John I am just telling you what I know and what a 20 year experienced turbo guy told me when discussing this. I believe Powerhouse turbos (along with Vortech) also recommends and install thier oil return line on the front cover so it sits higher above the oil pan for gravity so we have Vortech, Powerhouse, and the turbo guy all recommend up higher and on the front cover good guys to go with in my opinion and is how I would do it thats all I am saying. You do it your way I'll do it my way if I had to install a oil return line.
Ok are we done now or is it your turn? lol
< Message edited by Krazer -- 3/27/2007 8:23:57 PM >
<SNIP> possible metal shaving in the pan. i dont care how much grease one uses drilling into a sealed motor is just wrong! <SNIP>
Now, no one tell Vortech this (and use this information at YOUR OWN RISK! This is my disclaimer!!!) take a look at my oil return... sorry for the crappy picture... but notice.. There is a spot on the engine block, right above the oil pan on the driver side that looks like it it's sole purpose is for an oil return line!!! So that's exactly what we used it for... Simply drop the oil pan, drill and tap the hole... Now I'm 100% sure we got all of the shavings! 20,000 miles with no problems what so ever! Also it survived a VERY COLD winter without a block heater!!! We had many sub-zero days here!
here's my oil return:
Yea like you said do at your own risk and don't tell Vortech, you really don't want it that low you want it up higher so theres no problem and enough gravity in the return to drain it down, imo I would not have done it there per that angle of the line but like I said that is just my opinion.
which is what Vortech will tell you... but if you know anything about fluid dynamics then you'll realize that makes no sense... The fluid will flow back into the engine with no problems... plus the fact when the car is running I doubt the oil is hard above the oil pan... Like I said 20,000 miles no issue... And like I said that spot is really designed for an oil return line...
Ok... I just found this better picture on Turbo_J's site... She used the EXACT SAME SPOT for her turbo... and if she's confident that spot will work then I know it will!
Ok John here is somthing else I was considering the turbo found a reputatble speed shop that builds (20 years exp) and install turbos, We discussed this on the return line in his opinion it was to low for the return line to be installed and wanted higher on the front cover of the motor is what he recommened without hesitation.
And Scott Hoag, who builds Mustangs for a living... (He brought you such Mustangs as the Bullitt and the Mach1!) believes that the oil return is perfectly fine where we've got it... Guess where their return line is on their turbo cars??? LOL! None of their cars have ever had and issue and neither has mine... remember there is pressure behind the return line... so it's not like it's strictly fed by gravity... and like I said, with the car running I bet there is hardly any oil above the pan...
Your turn...
Your turn.. <-------lmao that was funny
Ok John I am just telling you what I know and what a 20 year experienced turbo guy told me when discussing this. I believe Powerhouse turbos (along with Vortech) also recommends and install thier oil return line up high on the front cover so we have Vortech, Powerhouse, and the turbo guy all recommend up high and the front cover good guys to go with in my opinion and is how I would do it thats all I am saying. You do it your way I'll do it my way if I had to install a oil return line.
Ok are we done now or is it your turn? lol
But afixer says that you'll never get all the shavings out if you drill up there.... Ok... so what is the worst thing that will happen if the oil return is below the oil level? The oil is a bit slow to drain out of the SC or Turbo? Ok... so perhaps maybe a seal on the headunit leaks a bit??? (like I said I've got 20,000 miles no problems) Very worse case would probably be that you'ld have to have the headunit repaired (new seals?)... but what about the shavings? Probably nothing will ever happen... but what would be the worst case? Damaged engine???? Hmmmm...
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RE: Superchargers - 
