Isn't it past your bed time 8cd? Yawn.................
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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro And scrming, like i said raynebow was on street tires with far less mods than you, but cut a 60' very close to yours.
ok.. another example of a centfi out performing an X!
a centri, but not the vortech. why go vortech not procharger? this is just you pushing the vortech over another system. I am not partial to either and i am not trying to push him into either system, i am not even debating that anymore. I will even probably go vortech myself if i go forced induction, i am debating because you are VERY partial to the vortech and are making waaay more "blanket statements" than i am. what is the average 60' of all the vortech owners....have you collected that information?
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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro My point was this- you are ragging on the x constantly trying to convince people it isnt worth the money. Well it is quite obvious then that you totally wasted your money on the vortech, because the procharger is almost the same price, and raynebow ran a 12.8 with stock gearing, and rubber.
Actually for FI the 3.31 might actually be better than my 4.10s! I'm in the process of stepping down to 3.73s as we speak. Also RB6 did a pulley swap! He's running the 12PSI pulley... My 12PSI pulley going on Tuesday... should be good for a tenth or two...
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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro The hi-po x will also be safer on a stock motor than a vortech at 10psi. the thing will last longer if they are both tuned properly because of less stress.
wow... now you're an automotive engineer! How do you know it will be safer? Where are your durability studies? Or is this just perhaps your opinion?
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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro Now considering this guy even said he WILL NOT be going to the track, don't get your panties in a bundle over track times, this is not the point.
The point is you come in here and make blanket statements like the x-charger is the most streetable option.... hmmm... how do you figure? I drive my car every day... it's very streetable... so how can you say the x-charger is more streetable? You seem to be caught up on this amazing low end torque that the x-charger makes on the dyno... Now you sound like MSP... Dyno sheets are fine... but you need to look at the bigger picture which includes track results, even if you personally don't plan on going to the track! But yet you make this blanket statement... Have you even been in an FI S197 V6?
i didnt say the x-charger is more streetable, again i am not arguing over which system he should go with, i am arguing about you pushing the centri's so hard they are bleeding out their assholes. i am just saying you should be more open minded. no i have not been in a forced induction s197, what does this have to do with it? Have you ever driven an f430 (so relevant...)? Have you ever helped build an 11 sec talon?
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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro For just a street car, a roots style blower is going to be more reliable and easier to maintain than a centri, which is obviously something this guy needs as he has no idea what is going on with FI (no offense).
Again, where is your proof? What are you basing these statements on? How is an Eaton more reliable than my Vortech? I have ZERO maintenance on my Vortech... how can anything be easier than that? And actually some of the guys I've talked to say roots are acutally less streetable because the boost can end up working like an light switch... on and off... where as the centrfi is more smooth, which makes it better for driving around on the streets..
my proof is in the fact that no production car has had a centrifugal supercharger since i beleive the 70's....they put down better track times and power without a doubt, i am not doubting that.....now why do YOU think they would use roots in production cars over centri's if they could make better peak numbers (better for advertising) and better track times (again better for advertising)?
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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro It just seems like you are trying to get this guy to buy vortech just because it is better for you. it doesn't perform as well, all this hype is fake, blah blah blah, the fact still stands that this guy will likely be just as happy with either system as he is not going to the track, both will end up costing very close to eachother, and the x will likely be easier for him to deal with.
What in the world would I have to gain by him buying a Vortech??? Oh, we could be the V-Men? LOL! And I specifically said, "If you are going to do your own install go with an X-Charger" And if he's not doing his own install then how can an X-Charger be easier to deal with?
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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro You are just pissing me off because i and a few others reccomend the x-charger and you come in and start talking about the negatives of it because of track times when once again the guy said he wont be going to the track. this is seriously just rediculous, and i apologize to the thread maker for this stupid argument that has nothing to do with your topic.
I'm simply making observations and asking questions... if the X-Charger has such great low end torque why aren't the 60' times better? How is that negative? I have said that for some people the X is the PERFECT CHOICE! What are we not allow to raise questions?? ALL HAIL THE X-CHARGER!!
No i just dont like the way you are going about it. You are very partial to the vortech, that is obvious. The x is self contained which means he doesn't have to worry about pretty much anything to do with the blower itself. What happens if an oil line cracks in extremely cold weather for the vortech...would he know what to do? hell no....would you? would he even know why his blower is extremely hot and making weird noises? probably not...so he is out of commission until he can take it into the shop.
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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro PS: something else you need to realize scrming is the dyno sheet is the closest representation of performance from one system to the other if you can read it correctly. There are SOOO many different factors, mainly the driver, on the track, but under equal conditions, a car with more area under the curve, that weighs the same, and is geared the same, driven equally should be faster. end of story. You could let someone else drive your car and they may not ever run the times you ran, or they may run better times than you ever ran. different cars perform differently even stock.
Dyno sheets are a simple tool... but at the end of the day what really counts is how the car peforms in the real world. And the best place for that is the track. As far as area under the curve... that's true to a point... do you think the area under the curve between 2000 and 3000 RPM matters a whole lot? When your WOT where do you spend most of your time??
street driving = not over 3k 90% of the time. when you step on the gas and go WOT from a cruising RPM, which one will kick in faster? the system making more power under 3k of course! that is the reason people talk about the low end of the x.
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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro im done arguing with you because i dont want to have any problems with you because i respect you, but really read some of the posts you have made in this thread and look at how closed minded you are being. That is not supposed to be offensive, just please look it over. Very close minded.
I'm not closed minded... but I don't drink Kool-Aid either... Again, each systems has it's pro and cons... I have pointed out that for the X-Charger is the perfect choice for some people... but what I don't buy is your blanket statement that the X-Charger is the most streetable system... and if your never going to the track that the X-Charger is the best choice... And I also contend if the low end torque of the X-Charger is so awesome (based on the dyno sheets) then X-Men should be able to post some better 60' times.
Once again...wait. How long had the vortech been out before you broke into 12's? how long has the x been out? i want to have a mature debate about this, and not break rules and such, so if you want to take this to pm i will.
omg, kid... you sound like your having a paranoid delusion... How in the world do you figure I'm pushing the Vortech? Where do you see me saying he needs to buy a Vortech? Oh, you're right, it's a giant conspiricy... oh, man, you're on to me! Some day Vortech's will rule the world... Don't you have some homework to do or something????
alright whatever man, im done debating with you, you can't be mature about it, and im not the only one that sees it obviously since a few other people have commented on how hard you are pushing the centri's. i have no problem with you and i dont want to. im done with this discussion. If you actually want to act your age and discuss this further you can pm me, but im not gonna sit here and take bull **** because im 17 and trying to have a legit debate/discussion.
alright whatever man, im done debating with you, you can't be mature about it, and im not the only one that sees it obviously since a few other people have commented on how hard you are pushing the centri's. i have no problem with you and i dont want to. im done with this discussion. If you actually want to act your age and discuss this further you can pm me, but im not gonna sit here and take bull **** because im 17 and trying to have a legit debate/discussion.
As far as I know, you are the only one that's gotten "pissed" over the fact I'm questioning the x-charger hype vs real world performance.... That's all I've done here... I have not pushed any product... I have not broken any rules... so, get over it... don't like my posts then report them to mods...
alright whatever man, im done debating with you, you can't be mature about it, and im not the only one that sees it obviously since a few other people have commented on how hard you are pushing the centri's. i have no problem with you and i dont want to. im done with this discussion. If you actually want to act your age and discuss this further you can pm me, but im not gonna sit here and take bull **** because im 17 and trying to have a legit debate/discussion.
As far as I know, you are the only one that's gotten "pissed" over the fact I'm questioning the x-charger hype vs real world performance.... That's all I've done here... I have not pushed any product... I have not broken any rules... so, get over it... don't like my posts then report them to mods...
Hey scrming, BINGO! you are absolely right, he's the only one that got pissed off over what amounts to nothing or could have easily been a 'mature' discussion. He obviously doesn't have a clue! I don't know if you already knew this but 8cd03gro is only 17 years old. The kid uses generalties such as 'they say', 'everybody thinks' in his rantings and meanderings to mask his obvious insecurity and lack of knowldege and ability to stand on his own merrits. He's a typical teen trying to figure out what mature means at the expense of others. Remember when we were pre-teen to teen we used to tell anybody we didn't agree with to 'grow up'? It's a typical teen flaw that is used to make ones self feel grown up at the expense of others when a teen can't possibly have a clue what it's like to be grown up or mature in the first place ;-D.... Clearly more than once since I've joined I have seen him use "oh, your not mature" as a last ditch attempt to win the argument, to be RIGHT. Using genaralities and being right at the expense of others are both anti-social traits and it's sort of a sad psychosis issue that most teens grow out of. Being a teen in the first place can be maddening as we both know. So much is expected out of a teen just because he can grow peach fuzz on his face but he doesn't have a clue what to do with his new status much less the demands grown ups and the rest of the world put on him to now be all grown up. I believe we both thought we were arguring with an illiterate old fart 'know best' wannabe. At least I did. Well, I'm not at all surprised to discover he's just a kid. And an obviously thin skinned angry out of control kid at that. Makes perfect sense now. The kid can't hide the truth behind a keyboard anymore, that's for sure. I've now affectionately, out of a tiny bit of sympathy, named him Lawnmower Man ;-D...We can at least sympathise with him a little bit now since we both used to be pubic wonders ourselves ;-D....He'll grow out of it one way or another then some day, if he's lucky, he'll know for himself what mature means. He'll also know what it's like to have to tolerate the silly lame misguided attacks from teenie boppers. If I were you, I wouldn't waste another key stroke on him. Ain't worth it. That is unless he can finally start acting like grown up and have a 'mature' 'legit' discussion. I just leanred the web definition of Troll is "to post controversial or provocative messages in a deliberate attempt to provoke flames". He's come pretty close to fitting that discription several times now. Guess we all accidently act like a troll some times. The proof is all over the forum. Tis time for Lawnmower Man to back off, re-think, re-group and start over. Preferably with a sincere appology to all those he has offended.
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07 Vista Blue Pony Upgrades / Mods In Order: Dynamat Snd Prfng True Dual Exhaust X W/Flowmasters GT Rear Bmpr Cvr C&L CAI W/Helix TB Spacer B a m a Chips Custom Tune TLok JBA Wires
alright whatever man, im done debating with you, you can't be mature about it, and im not the only one that sees it obviously since a few other people have commented on how hard you are pushing the centri's. i have no problem with you and i dont want to. im done with this discussion. If you actually want to act your age and discuss this further you can pm me, but im not gonna sit here and take bull **** because im 17 and trying to have a legit debate/discussion.
As far as I know, you are the only one that's gotten "pissed" over the fact I'm questioning the x-charger hype vs real world performance.... That's all I've done here... I have not pushed any product... I have not broken any rules... so, get over it... don't like my posts then report them to mods...
Hey scrming, BINGO! you are absolely right, he's the only one that got pissed off over what amounts to nothing or could have easily been a 'mature' discussion. He obviously doesn't have a clue! I don't know if you already knew this but 8cd03gro is only 17 years old. The kid uses generalties such as 'they say', 'everybody thinks' in his rantings and meanderings to mask his obvious insecurity and lack of knowldege and ability to stand on his own merrits. He's a typical teen trying to figure out what mature means at the expense of others. Remember when we were pre-teen to teen we used to tell anybody we didn't agree with to 'grow up'? It's a typical teen flaw that is used to make ones self feel grown up at the expense of others when a teen can't possibly have a clue what it's like to be grown up or mature in the first place ;-D.... Clearly more than once since I've joined I have seen him use "oh, your not mature" as a last ditch attempt to win the argument, to be RIGHT. Using genaralities and being right at the expense of others are both anti-social traits and it's sort of a sad psychosis issue that most teens grow out of. Being a teen in the first place can be maddening as we both know. So much is expected out of a teen just because he can grow peach fuzz on his face but he doesn't have a clue what to do with his new status much less the demands grown ups and the rest of the world put on him to now be all grown up. I believe we both thought we were arguring with an illiterate old fart 'know best' wannabe. At least I did. Well, I'm not at all surprised to discover he's just a kid. And an obviously thin skinned angry out of control kid at that. Makes perfect sense now. The kid can't hide the truth behind a keyboard anymore, that's for sure. I've now affectionately, out of a tiny bit of sympathy, named him Lawnmower Man ;-D...We can at least sympathise with him a little bit now since we both used to be pubic wonders ourselves ;-D....He'll grow out of it one way or another then some day, if he's lucky, he'll know for himself what mature means. He'll also know what it's like to have to tolerate the silly lame misguided attacks from teenie boppers. If I were you, I wouldn't waste another key stroke on him. Ain't worth it. That is unless he can finally start acting like grown up and have a 'mature' 'legit' discussion. I just leanred the web definition of Troll is "to post controversial or provocative messages in a deliberate attempt to provoke flames". He's come pretty close to fitting that discription several times now. Guess we all accidently act like a troll some times. The proof is all over the forum. Tis time for Lawnmower Man to back off, re-think, re-group and start over. Preferably with a sincere appology to all those he has offended.
wolfey...you know nothing about the 4.0 or this discussion, and you have nothing to do with it. How have i offended anyone at all ? i haven't taken any personal stabs unless stabs were taken at me. and if you go back a page you will notice i think 2 other people that made comments about scrming pushing the centri's a little hard. I do not want to argue this anymore because i don't want to start meaningless e-thugging, like i said, i would rather take it to pm. Please point out one of my posts that is trolling. I'd love to see it.
< Message edited by 8cd03gro -- 2/18/2007 2:51:05 PM >
not to jump in this argument but is the guy looking for power or durability? Turbo if is its power and supercharge if its durability...as for a comparision between Vortech and Procharger I'd have to side on Vortech...Procharger might give you more power but I have heard some bad stories about its reliability at comparative levels of PSI...that said if the X-charger is done right then you might even last as long as if you went S/C...maybe...its just less likely...I'm sure that you could also get comparatively more power too...but its bigger gamble in my opinion if its done improperly...I have been weary to do either quite frankly because of risks involved...it goes back to my argument that 400rwhp on 4.0 is a fantasy....NOT because its not possible but just the reliability issues involved...as long as you are relatively conservative about you're goals either system is viable...but I tend to think that if you want a system that will last longer than the other, that is MORE LIKELY to happen with a supercharger...just my 2 centz...
On a side note Wolfey you really need to back off of the young guy, having argued with him before he knows his shyt and at this point you're just flaming all of his posts. Its just a really asshole thing to do and you are not accomplishing anything. I have plenty of enemies on this board but I don't go around flaming all their posts, coming from someone that is never afraid to light someone up for just cause, you on the other hand should really just back off...
I plan on going S/C. I just wanted to know what would be durable since my car is my daily driver and also has a lot of power. That was all I was looking for.
not to jump in this argument but is the guy looking for power or durability? Turbo if is its power and supercharge if its durability...as for a comparision between Vortech and Procharger I'd have to side on Vortech...Procharger might give you more power but I have heard some bad stories about its reliability at comparative levels of PSI...that said if the X-charger is done right then you might even last as long as if you went S/C...maybe...its just less likely...I'm sure that you could also get comparatively more power too...but its bigger gamble in my opinion if its done improperly...I have been weary to do either quite frankly because of risks involved...it goes back to my argument that 400rwhp on 4.0 is a fantasy....NOT because its not possible but just the reliability issues involved...as long as you are relatively conservative about you're goals either system is viable...but I tend to think that if you want a system that will last longer than the other, that is MORE LIKELY to happen with a supercharger...just my 2 centz...
On a side note Wolfey you really need to back off of the young guy, having argued with him before he knows his shyt and at this point you're just flaming all of his posts. Its just a really asshole thing to do and you are not accomplishing anything. I have plenty of enemies on this board but I don't go around flaming all their posts, coming from someone that is never afraid to light someone up for just cause, you on the other hand should really just back off...
Yeah I hear ya illegal but the kid just needed a good smackin! The kid makes accusations he can't possibly back up and he calls others troll when clearly that's simply a case of the kettle calling the coffee black. So what if he's an expert on supercharging. He's typically to quick to judge, nattery, critical and extremely thin skinned and needs to chill just like he demands from others.
< Message edited by wolfey2k -- 2/18/2007 4:01:00 PM >
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I plan on going S/C. I just wanted to know what would be durable since my car is my daily driver and also has a lot of power. That was all I was looking for.
Yeah I hear ya VenoM. You do what ever you decide you want to do, what ever makes you happy. That's all that matters. Centi, turbo, or roots. What ever! It's all in what you like, what you can afford and will give you the most bang for the bucks you decide to shell out. All choices will indeed improve the performance of your 'stang quite nicely! That's a fact no one can argue with.
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07 Vista Blue Pony Upgrades / Mods In Order: Dynamat Snd Prfng True Dual Exhaust X W/Flowmasters GT Rear Bmpr Cvr C&L CAI W/Helix TB Spacer B a m a Chips Custom Tune TLok JBA Wires
I've actually found a lot of 8cd03gro's posts informative. Every now and then, some mis-information gets posted, or is opinion based on limited information available. Either way, he does a lot of research and particpates in a lot of forums to gather it (including non ford forums). Simular to what Krazer, Scrming, Fazm and others do (I currently post on 6 sites right now...had to wean myself down from 12, LOL). I've found his research on turbos to be very good, and it has often validated the research I have performed.
As for 8c's debate with Scrming, thats between him and John. I'm out of that one, LOL. But for the mobbing, cut the guy a break.
PS: His age does not have anything to do with this. He's 17 now, more knowledgeable than a lot of guys I meet at the track....if he keeps going at this pace, when hes in his 20's, then 30's, he'll probably be rolling a single digit car off a trailer at the track.
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I've actually found a lot of 8cd03gro's posts informative. Every now and then, some mis-information gets posted, or is opinion based on limited information available. Either way, he does a lot of research and particpates in a lot of forums to gather it (including non ford forums). Simular to what Krazer, Scrming, Fazm and others do (I currently post on 6 sites right now...had to wean myself down from 12, LOL). I've found his research on turbos to be very good, and it has often validated the research I have performed.
As for 8c's debate with Scrming, thats between him and John. I'm out of that one, LOL. But for the mobbing, cut the guy a break.
PS: His age does not have anything to do with this. He's 17 now, more knowledgeable than a lot of guys I meet at the track....if he keeps going at this pace, when hes in his 20's, then 30's, he'll probably be rolling a single digit car off a trailer at the track.
I totally agree with this post I find myself agreeing and shaking my head in agreement with a lot of 8cd03gro posts when I read them and when I found how old he was I was impressed!
I've actually found a lot of 8cd03gro's posts informative. Every now and then, some mis-information gets posted, or is opinion based on limited information available. Either way, he does a lot of research and particpates in a lot of forums to gather it (including non ford forums). Simular to what Krazer, Scrming, Fazm and others do (I currently post on 6 sites right now...had to wean myself down from 12, LOL). I've found his research on turbos to be very good, and it has often validated the research I have performed.
As for 8c's debate with Scrming, thats between him and John. I'm out of that one, LOL. But for the mobbing, cut the guy a break.
PS: His age does not have anything to do with this. He's 17 now, more knowledgeable than a lot of guys I meet at the track....if he keeps going at this pace, when hes in his 20's, then 30's, he'll probably be rolling a single digit car off a trailer at the track.
I totally agree with this post I find myself agreeing and shaking my head in agreement with a lot of 8cd03gro posts when I read them and when I found how old he was I was impressed!
Yes I suppose I could agree that he's knowledgable for his age, I guess but that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I have many informative posts out here too. But what I am talking about is his outlandish and over reactive behavior, false accusations toward me and others. And he is equally guilty of flaming and trolling as much as I if not more so. I have no problem with anyone, regardless of their age for having useful knowledge that can be of benifit to others. However, the kid needs a tune up on personality traits. Anyone reading his argumentative posts can see that. That's all I am complaining about. If someone is nasty in manner and tone, then I am not inclinded to give a rip how much he knows.
< Message edited by wolfey2k -- 2/18/2007 5:16:26 PM >
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If I remember from Todd's (Rygen) posts last summer his impression of the X was that it made the car responsive and it felt to him as though he were driving an 8. He was surprised when the first time he drove my car how easily it got sideways the first time he laid into the gas, he didn't think a centri would be making like that so low in the powerband. The fact is I myself am very surprised with how linear the power comes on.
MY choice, if I had it to do all over again, I'd go turbo, LOL. If I wanted a stout street car that could take on most showroom sports cars, I'd probably go with the X, the reason? The thing is drop dead gorgeous.
I'm anxious to see what happens when I match some of my closest competitors when I bolt on some DRs to go with my 4.10s in a couple of weeks. I did upgrade to a 3.1 pulley when I got my PC, the 3.4 only made 9 pounds, in comparison the Vortech makes 10 with a 3.25, seems to me they are very closely matched when it comes to boost production with a given pulley size.
Oh yeah, I have seen PC and Vortech on Ebay (NEW) tuner kit for 3300 shipped, I think that makes them very competitive with the X in price.
Of course, noone will match the deal I got 2,000 dollars shipped, LOL And there was a missing part (I bought it used BTW) and Procharger was awesome in helping me get the missing part to my shop within 1 day! Not bad service if I say so myself.
If I remember from Todd's (Rygen) posts last summer his impression of the X was that it made the car responsive and it felt to him as though he were driving an 8. He was surprised when the first time he drove my car how easily it got sideways the first time he laid into the gas, he didn't think a centri would be making like that so low in the powerband. The fact is I myself am very surprised with how linear the power comes on.
MY choice, if I had it to do all over again, I'd go turbo, LOL. If I wanted a stout street car that could take on most showroom sports cars, I'd probably go with the X, the reason? The thing is drop dead gorgeous.
I'm anxious to see what happens when I match some of my closest competitors when I bolt on some DRs to go with my 4.10s in a couple of weeks. I did upgrade to a 3.1 pulley when I got my PC, the 3.4 only made 9 pounds, in comparison the Vortech makes 10 with a 3.25, seems to me they are very closely matched when it comes to boost production with a given pulley size.
Oh yeah, I have seen PC and Vortech on Ebay (NEW) tuner kit for 3300 shipped, I think that makes them very competitive with the X in price.
Of course, noone will match the deal I got 2,000 dollars shipped, LOL And there was a missing part (I bought it used BTW) and Procharger was awesome in helping me get the missing part to my shop within 1 day! Not bad service if I say so myself.
Is anyone running an IC with their kits? or are they all using IC's? Havent been much about them or variations of IC's -Jon
Vortech has an optional air-to-water Procharger comes with an air-to-air. I believe you can buy an optional 3 core vs standard 2 core??? (anyone know?) X-Charger, the only cooling I'm awear of is a meth/water injection kit...
Is anyone running an IC with their kits? or are they all using IC's? Havent been much about them or variations of IC's -Jon
Vortech has an optional air-to-water Procharger comes with an air-to-air. I believe you can buy an optional 3 core vs standard 2 core??? (anyone know?) X-Charger, the only cooling I'm awear of is a meth/water injection kit...
Someone here on the boards found an Eaton M-90 intercooler that's made by an Austrailian company. I can't remember where the company's link is at though...
That intercooler was for a GM motor and not applicable to our cars. As far as I know there is NO IC for the X, but Doug at B A M A may be working on something I'm told.
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RE: Superchargers - 
