quote:

ORIGINAL: scrming

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krazer

Ocd03gro I think the only way to get a fair comparison to find out for sure the cars (which I believe you agree with) would need to be the same mod for mod (suspension mod for mod) including gears running on the same track I agree and believe the X would pull a better 60” but like you said there only a 2-3 out that have been to the track and only one out there with gearing and he is not running 4.10’s like scrming.

The gearing is a big factor in the 60’ and the taller gear is what gives you the better 60’ Scrming car is running 4.10’s vers Nav 3.73’s is not fair comparison they were need to also have to have the same,mods gearing,tires and tire size and run at the same track for this to be a true valid comparison, if the test is ran this way I believe X Charger should pull the better 60’.

I agree the X charger will be running high 12’s in the near future and that is pretty decent and running under 10psi of boost.

The gearing was already taken into consideration! I have 4.10s but run a 28 inch tire... Nav has 3.73's and was running a SHORTER tire... like 26 or something (Rygen help me out here). We did the math and the effective gear ratio was basically a wash... 3.90 vs 3.92 or .95... it was very close... so you really can't use the gearing as an excuse...

And as far as who's a more experience driver... shoot... while I was out collecting car show trophies Nav was out collecting racing trophies!! He is the better driver!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krazer

quote:

ORIGINAL: scrming

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krazer

Ocd03gro I think the only way to get a fair comparison to find out for sure the cars (which I believe you agree with) would need to be the same mod for mod (suspension mod for mod) including gears running on the same track I agree and believe the X would pull a better 60” but like you said there only a 2-3 out that have been to the track and only one out there with gearing and he is not running 4.10’s like scrming.

The gearing is a big factor in the 60’ and the taller gear is what gives you the better 60’ Scrming car is running 4.10’s vers Nav 3.73’s is not fair comparison they were need to also have to have the same,mods gearing,tires and tire size and run at the same track for this to be a true valid comparison, if the test is ran this way I believe X Charger should pull the better 60’.

I agree the X charger will be running high 12’s in the near future and that is pretty decent and running under 10psi of boost.

The gearing was already taken into consideration! I have 4.10s but run a 28 inch tire... Nav has 3.73's and was running a SHORTER tire... like 26 or something (Rygen help me out here). We did the math and the effective gear ratio was basically a wash... 3.90 vs 3.92 or .95... it was very close... so you really can't use the gearing as an excuse...

And as far as who's a more experience driver... shoot... while I was out collecting car show trophies Nav was out collecting racing trophies!! He is the better driver!

John the cars would have to be setup with the same mods, gears and tire and tire size to really be fair its just my opinion. Expericence driver I never said anything about that??? But since you bring it up come on IMO John your one of the best how many lauches and runs have you had in the last two years??? I have seen your 60's and 1/4 times with what mods you were running you can drivedon't give me that lay off stuff! :)


John also Nav was only running the 6-8psi pulley also kinda of at a disavantage vers your Vortech at 10psi and without the cats a more fair comparison would be against the X Charger 2.8 pulley which runs 8-9.7 psi without cats.

I think that would also make for more of a fair comparison to your 10psi Vortech don't you?

John I went to your site to look at your dyno sheet but it only starts at around 3000 rpm would you have one that starts at around 2000 so I could compare to the X Charger?

John I am just debating you on 60' times and not looking for a heated debate just friendly. :)

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ORIGINAL: scrming

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krazer

quote:

ORIGINAL: scrming

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krazer

Ocd03gro I think the only way to get a fair comparison to find out for sure the cars (which I believe you agree with) would need to be the same mod for mod (suspension mod for mod) including gears running on the same track I agree and believe the X would pull a better 60” but like you said there only a 2-3 out that have been to the track and only one out there with gearing and he is not running 4.10’s like scrming.

The gearing is a big factor in the 60’ and the taller gear is what gives you the better 60’ Scrming car is running 4.10’s vers Nav 3.73’s is not fair comparison they were need to also have to have the same,mods gearing,tires and tire size and run at the same track for this to be a true valid comparison, if the test is ran this way I believe X Charger should pull the better 60’.

I agree the X charger will be running high 12’s in the near future and that is pretty decent and running under 10psi of boost.

The gearing was already taken into consideration! I have 4.10s but run a 28 inch tire... Nav has 3.73's and was running a SHORTER tire... like 26 or something (Rygen help me out here). We did the math and the effective gear ratio was basically a wash... 3.90 vs 3.92 or .95... it was very close... so you really can't use the gearing as an excuse...

And as far as who's a more experience driver... shoot... while I was out collecting car show trophies Nav was out collecting racing trophies!! He is the better driver!

John the cars would have to be setup with the same mods, gears and tire and tire size to really be fair its just my opinion. Expericence driver I never said anything about that??? But since you bring it up come on IMO John your one of the best how many lauches and runs have you had in the last two years??? I have seen your 60's and 1/4 times with what mods you were running you can drivedon't give me that lay off stuff! :)


John also Nav was only running the 6-8psi pulley also kinda of at a disavantage vers your Vortech at 10psi and without the cats a more fair comparison would be against the X Charger 2.8 pulley which runs 8-9.7 psi without cats.

I think that would also make for more of a fair comparison to your 10psi Vortech don't you?

John I went to your site to look at your dyno sheet but it only starts at around 3000 rpm would you have one that starts at around 2000 so I could compare to the X Charger?

John I am just debating you on 60' times and not looking for a heated debate just friendly. :)

What kind of boost does the Hi-Po kit make?  

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ORIGINAL: rygenstormlocke

The hipo kit is just the better intake, the 2.8 pulley is optional for either kit, right?

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ORIGINAL: bscottie

@ screaming, if I remember correctly rygen did some comparisons on the torque between the Xcharger and either the Vortech or the PH turbo, the actual torque to rpm ratio was not that much difference in one circumstance, as for as a 60' time the X has not matched anyone YET, however nobody has a comparable setup YET, Nav was running the 3" pulley with the lower boost with his 13.6 run, I am running stock rearend with the 2.8" pulley, I am not sure when Nav gets everything setup with the hi-output kit what 60' time he will run but I am sure it will go down from where it is now,I do believe his car will be the most comparable to yours and others for equal mods, I will be upgrading to the t-loc but will be keeping the stock 3.31s or going to the 3.45 if any gear change, I also think that with your hp and going to the 3.73s and smaller pulley you will drop your 60', 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile et's.    

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ORIGINAL: bscottie

I know that there are plenty of comments by people saying it is a better street setup but most of those have come from people that dont have an Xcharger, the debate about which is better is an ongoing opinion fest, I dont see any of the s/c choices as better than the other specifically, they all give our cars a kick in power, they do all have different advantages but IMO thats doesnt make one better than the other, I already have a better timeslip than a few others with more hp so the magic dyno sheet doesnt mean everything when you go to the strip, and seen others with similar hp or less beat my time,also I think we will see at least a 1.8 60' time in the future, like I said once Nav gets his together with the hi-output things should change, at least in theory.  LOL  my vote will be for the Xcharger unless someone definitly wants the most hp for the buck, the Xcharger ease of install and less stuff under the hood is 2 key reasons, if you want the beast of performance I think rygen should be the man to follow, as long as what you have makes you happy nobody should give a ****

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ORIGINAL: scrming

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ORIGINAL: bscottie

@ screaming, if I remember correctly rygen did some comparisons on the torque between the Xcharger and either the Vortech or the PH turbo, the actual torque to rpm ratio was not that much difference in one circumstance, as for as a 60' time the X has not matched anyone YET, however nobody has a comparable setup YET, Nav was running the 3" pulley with the lower boost with his 13.6 run, I am running stock rearend with the 2.8" pulley, I am not sure when Nav gets everything setup with the hi-output kit what 60' time he will run but I am sure it will go down from where it is now,I do believe his car will be the most comparable to yours and others for equal mods, I will be upgrading to the t-loc but will be keeping the stock 3.31s or going to the 3.45 if any gear change, I also think that with your hp and going to the 3.73s and smaller pulley you will drop your 60', 1/8 mile and 1/4 mile et's.    

The thing is everyone sees the X-Charger dyno sheets and says things like "the x-charger is the best for the street because of all the low end torque... etc..."   But this is very reminisent of the MSP mentality...  My dyno sheet looks better than your dyno sheet so my car MUST BE BETTER...  But the timeslips seem to tell a different story.. if the X-Chargers low end torque is so great why aren't we seeing better 60's?  Why are the centrif's out performing the X-Charger?  Yes, the centrif's make 10 PSI BUT that at like 6000 RPM!  Everyone get's all excited about how early the boost an X-Charger comes on... just look at the dyno sheet!  To which again, I say, "yeah... but so what... it comes on early but appearantly it's still not enough to out perform a centrif setup that cost about the same $$$"    So, how does that make the X-Charger a better street setup???   It's a better street setup because it makes prettier dyno sheets??? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: beaustang

So why are you such a X hater? Do you feel the centri systems don't get enough respect and you're just tired of hearing "X Charger this, X Charger that"? I'm not busting your balls I'm just curious where all the negativity lately is coming from. I'm afraid now all the FI guys are going to start splitting into groups and talking **** about each other like the GT vs V6 crap we all hate.

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ORIGINAL: scrming

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ORIGINAL: beaustang

So why are you such a X hater? Do you feel the centri systems don't get enough respect and you're just tired of hearing "X Charger this, X Charger that"? I'm not busting your balls I'm just curious where all the negativity lately is coming from. I'm afraid now all the FI guys are going to start splitting into groups and talking **** about each other like the GT vs V6 crap we all hate.

I certainly don't hate any of the FI options...  They all have their pros and cons...  I have NEVER BASHED anyone for buying any type of FI  (so don't worry about GT vs V6 kind of stuff!).  I don't believe I've even talked negatively about the X-Charger. I am simply questioning some of the hype surrounding the X-Charger...  If someone came in here hyping Vortechs I would do the exact same thing... 

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ORIGINAL: beaustang

Your posts just have a lot of references to time sheets vs dyno sheets and seem to imply the X is better on the dyno than on the street (or track). It's like any time anyone says anything good about the X you have to compare it to a centri, which is always better. No big deal to me; I like all the FI options including turbo. I was just curious why you feel like you need to defend the centri when no one is attacking it.

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ORIGINAL: scrming

quote:

ORIGINAL: beaustang

So why are you such a X hater? Do you feel the centri systems don't get enough respect and you're just tired of hearing "X Charger this, X Charger that"? I'm not busting your balls I'm just curious where all the negativity lately is coming from. I'm afraid now all the FI guys are going to start splitting into groups and talking **** about each other like the GT vs V6 crap we all hate.

I certainly don't hate any of the FI options...  They all have their pros and cons...  I have NEVER BASHED anyone for buying any type of FI  (so don't worry about GT vs V6 kind of stuff!).  I don't believe I've even talked negatively about the X-Charger. I am simply questioning some of the hype surrounding the X-Charger...  If someone came in here hyping Vortechs I would do the exact same thing... 

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ORIGINAL: scrming

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ORIGINAL: beaustang

Your posts just have a lot of references to time sheets vs dyno sheets and seem to imply the X is better on the dyno than on the street (or track). It's like any time anyone says anything good about the X you have to compare it to a centri, which is always better. No big deal to me; I like all the FI options including turbo. I was just curious why you feel like you need to defend the centri when no one is attacking it.

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ORIGINAL: scrming

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ORIGINAL: beaustang

So why are you such a X hater? Do you feel the centri systems don't get enough respect and you're just tired of hearing "X Charger this, X Charger that"? I'm not busting your balls I'm just curious where all the negativity lately is coming from. I'm afraid now all the FI guys are going to start splitting into groups and talking **** about each other like the GT vs V6 crap we all hate.

I certainly don't hate any of the FI options...  They all have their pros and cons...  I have NEVER BASHED anyone for buying any type of FI  (so don't worry about GT vs V6 kind of stuff!).  I don't believe I've even talked negatively about the X-Charger. I am simply questioning some of the hype surrounding the X-Charger...  If someone came in here hyping Vortechs I would do the exact same thing... 

Basically just trying to cut through all the hype... 

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ORIGINAL: scrming

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro

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ORIGINAL: Krazer

Hmmm just thinking out loud here bscotti X Charger car ran a 13.25 with a open rear end stock gears and his cats still on, I am thinking with a t-lok, 373''s (or 4.10's) cats off that should put an X Charger car easy in the high 12's. Hmm I am thinking with 4.10's and a good set of dr's wonder what that 60' would look like then.

I am just thinking out loud here don't mind me. :)

mmmmmhhhhmmmm. exactly. And scrming, like i said raynebow was on street tires with far less mods than you, but cut a 60' very close to yours. Just because the....what 2 x-chargers that have hit the track so far (?) have not cut a faster 60' than you doesn't mean they don't make more low end torque. bscottie is close to your 60' with an open diff also. Just wait, there will be an x in the 12's soon enough and wait for the 60' it will be mad. There is no denying the low-end torque of the x-charger, i dont even know why you are arguing the fact that it has mucho low-end torque, have looked at any of the dynos dude???

First off, RB6 has a PROCHARGER. He does NOT have an X-Charger! RB6 is also running a smaller pulley then what comes standard/stock.

Second, Nav DOES have an X-Charger and we have almost IDENTICAL setup... Except I took my cats off... BUT Nav was running MT ETs which are a LOT BETTER than my M&H's! If the X-Charger is so great with the low end torque then Nav should have a lot better 60' than either RB6 or myself!

Third, Yes, I seen the dyno sheets... Gosh, now you sound like MSP... I've seen the sheets but more importantly I've seen the timeslips! The Vortech and ProCharger simply out perform the X-Charger... sorry to bust your bubble... You can show me all the dyno sheets you want but the X-Men need to start pulling better 60' times then us Centrif to live up to all the low end hype!

Fourth, I'm still running the standard/stock Vortech HO pulley (3.25). The 2.87 pulley is going on next Tuesday! Couple that with a set of MT ET's and I'll be mid to low 12's while the X-Men are trying to break into the 12's...

The X-Charger looks good... sounds good.... is easy to install... and make really nice dyno sheets... but at the end of the day, it's all about the timeslips you bring home...

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
And scrming, like i said raynebow was on street tires with far less mods than you, but cut a 60' very close to yours.

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
My point was this- you are ragging on the x constantly trying to convince people it isnt worth the money.  Well it is quite obvious then that you totally wasted your money on the vortech, because the procharger is almost the same price, and raynebow ran a 12.8 with stock gearing, and rubber. 

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
The hi-po x will also be safer on a stock motor than a vortech at 10psi.  the thing will last longer if they are both tuned properly because of less stress.

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
 Now considering this guy even said he WILL NOT be going to the track, don't get your panties in a bundle over track times, this is not the point. 

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
 For just a street car, a roots style blower is going to be more reliable and easier to maintain than a centri, which is obviously something this guy needs as he has no idea what is going on with FI (no offense). 

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
It just seems like you are trying to get this guy to buy vortech just because it is better for you.  it doesn't perform as well, all this hype is fake, blah blah blah, the fact still stands that this guy will likely be just as happy with either system as he is not going to the track, both will end up costing very close to eachother, and the x will likely be easier for him to deal with. 

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
You are just pissing me off because i and a few others reccomend the x-charger and you come in and start talking about the negatives of it because of track times when once again the guy said he wont be going to the track.  this is seriously just rediculous, and i apologize to the thread maker for this stupid argument that has nothing to do with your topic.

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
PS:  something else you need to realize scrming is the dyno sheet is the closest representation of performance from one system to the other if you can read it correctly.  There are SOOO many different factors, mainly the driver, on the track, but under equal conditions, a car with more area under the curve, that weighs the same, and is geared the same, driven equally should be faster.  end of story.  You could let someone else drive your car and they may not ever run the times you ran, or they may run better times than you ever ran.  different cars perform differently even stock.

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
im done arguing with you because i dont want to have any problems with you because i respect you, but really read some of the posts you have made in this thread and look at how closed minded you are being.  That is not supposed to be offensive, just please look it over.  Very close minded.

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ORIGINAL: scrming

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
And scrming, like i said raynebow was on street tires with far less mods than you, but cut a 60' very close to yours.

ok.. another example of a centfi out performing an X!

a centri, but not the vortech.  why go vortech not procharger?  this is just you pushing the vortech over another system.  I am not partial to either and i am not trying to push him into either system, i am not even debating that anymore.  I will even probably go vortech myself if i go forced induction, i am debating because you are VERY partial to the vortech and are making waaay more "blanket statements" than i am.  what is the average 60' of all the vortech owners....have you collected that information?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
My point was this- you are ragging on the x constantly trying to convince people it isnt worth the money.  Well it is quite obvious then that you totally wasted your money on the vortech, because the procharger is almost the same price, and raynebow ran a 12.8 with stock gearing, and rubber. 

Actually for FI the 3.31 might actually be better than my 4.10s!  I'm in the process of stepping down to 3.73s as we speak.  Also RB6 did a pulley swap!  He's running the 12PSI pulley... My 12PSI pulley going on Tuesday... should be good for a tenth or two...  

quote:

ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
The hi-po x will also be safer on a stock motor than a vortech at 10psi.  the thing will last longer if they are both tuned properly because of less stress.

wow... now you're an automotive engineer!  How do you know it will be safer?  Where are your durability studies?  Or is this just perhaps your opinion?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
 Now considering this guy even said he WILL NOT be going to the track, don't get your panties in a bundle over track times, this is not the point. 

The point is you come in here and make blanket statements like the x-charger is the most streetable option....  hmmm... how do you figure?  I drive my car every day... it's very streetable... so how can you say the x-charger is more streetable? You seem to be caught up on this amazing low end torque that the x-charger makes on the dyno...  Now you sound like MSP... Dyno sheets are fine... but you need to look at the bigger picture which includes track results, even if you personally don't plan on going to the track! But yet you make this blanket statement...  Have you even been in an FI S197 V6? 

i didnt say the x-charger is more streetable, again i am not arguing over which system he should go with, i am arguing about you pushing the centri's so hard they are bleeding out their assholes.  i am just saying you should be more open minded.  no i have not been in a forced induction s197, what does this have to do with it?  Have you ever driven an f430 (so relevant...)?  Have you ever helped build an 11 sec talon?

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
 For just a street car, a roots style blower is going to be more reliable and easier to maintain than a centri, which is obviously something this guy needs as he has no idea what is going on with FI (no offense). 

Again, where is your proof?  What are you basing these statements on?  How is an Eaton more reliable than my Vortech?  I have ZERO maintenance on my Vortech... how can anything be easier than that?   And actually some of the guys I've talked to say roots are acutally less streetable because the boost can end up working like an light switch... on and off... where as the centrfi is more smooth, which makes it better for driving around on the streets..


my proof is in the fact that no production car has had a centrifugal supercharger since i beleive the 70's....they put down better track times and power without a doubt, i am not doubting that.....now why do YOU think they would use roots in production cars over centri's if they could make better peak numbers (better for advertising) and better track times (again better for advertising)?

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ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
It just seems like you are trying to get this guy to buy vortech just because it is better for you.  it doesn't perform as well, all this hype is fake, blah blah blah, the fact still stands that this guy will likely be just as happy with either system as he is not going to the track, both will end up costing very close to eachother, and the x will likely be easier for him to deal with. 

What in the world would I have to gain by him buying a Vortech???  Oh, we could be the V-Men?  LOL!  And I specifically said, "If you are going to do your own install go with an X-Charger"  And if he's not doing his own install then how can an X-Charger be easier to deal with?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
You are just pissing me off because i and a few others reccomend the x-charger and you come in and start talking about the negatives of it because of track times when once again the guy said he wont be going to the track.  this is seriously just rediculous, and i apologize to the thread maker for this stupid argument that has nothing to do with your topic.

I'm simply making observations and asking questions... if the X-Charger has such great low end torque why aren't the 60' times better?  How is that negative?  I have said that for some people the X is the PERFECT CHOICE!   What are we not allow to raise questions?? ALL HAIL THE X-CHARGER!!

No i just dont like the way you are going about it.  You are very partial to the vortech, that is obvious. The x is self contained which means he doesn't have to worry about pretty much anything to do with the blower itself.  What happens if an oil line cracks in extremely cold weather for the vortech...would he know what to do?  hell no....would you?  would he even know why his blower is extremely hot and making weird noises?  probably not...so he is out of commission until he can take it into the shop.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
PS:  something else you need to realize scrming is the dyno sheet is the closest representation of performance from one system to the other if you can read it correctly.  There are SOOO many different factors, mainly the driver, on the track, but under equal conditions, a car with more area under the curve, that weighs the same, and is geared the same, driven equally should be faster.  end of story.  You could let someone else drive your car and they may not ever run the times you ran, or they may run better times than you ever ran.  different cars perform differently even stock.

Dyno sheets are a simple tool...  but at the end of the day what really counts is how the car peforms in the real world.  And the best place for that is the track.  As far as area under the curve... that's true to a point... do you think the area under the curve between 2000 and 3000 RPM matters a whole lot?  When your WOT where do you spend most of your time?? 


street driving = not over 3k 90% of the time.  when you step on the gas and go WOT from a cruising RPM, which one will kick in faster?  the system making more power under 3k of course!  that is the reason people talk about the low end of the x. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: 8cd03gro
im done arguing with you because i dont want to have any problems with you because i respect you, but really read some of the posts you have made in this thread and look at how closed minded you are being.  That is not supposed to be offensive, just please look it over.  Very close minded.

I'm not closed minded... but I don't drink Kool-Aid either...  Again,  each systems has it's pro and cons... I  have pointed out that for the X-Charger is the perfect choice for some people... but what I don't buy is your blanket statement that the X-Charger is the most streetable system...  and if your never going to the track that the X-Charger is the best choice... And I also contend if the low end torque of the X-Charger is so awesome (based on the dyno sheets) then X-Men should be able to post some better 60' times.

quote:

ORIGINAL: v6VenoM

hey guys dont worry I dont take any offense to any of your comments because I really dont know much. I wont be doing the install myself, and if scrming says he drives his every day as i do mine and there is zero maintenance I have to take his testimonial into serious consideration. I dont mind that you guys are debating back and forth about this, it is actually very helpful. I try to absorb this information and weed out the **** or opinions if you will. I am leaning towards the Vortech for a few reasons, #1 it seems to get more power from what I have read and heard, #2 I like the way it looks much more than the X and #3 thats what I want to do lol but I definitely appreciate all the opinions and all the help. keep the debating going. just dont hate each other, play nice. lol