RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/5/2004 9:55:36 AM
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TommyV8
Posts: 4026
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From: St. Louis, MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan02GT
Yup, it's not a comfortable car for the people who aren't crazy enough to donate a kidney to own one.
LS1 fbodies are more affordable than a lot of people think. I am a bit of a broke-ass. I got mine used. It was less than 2 years old and had 26k miles, just broken in, with the balance of the factory warranty. I paid less than $16k. Brand new it was maybe around $24k, and that's because of the $1000 t-top option. My g/f got her first '01 Z28 (she's on her 2nd one now) for just under $15k, with more options and fewer miles than mine, still on the factory warranty, although it did not have t-tops. If you get an SS or a WS6 that's when it's easy to overpay without any real performance gain. Stick to the Z28 for the best bang for the buck.
_____________________________
2002 Camaro Z28
Automatic, stock converter, 2.73 gears
Airbox lid, longtube headers, catless Y-pipe, cutout, Nitto drag radials
12.72 @ 108.62 1.93 60 ft
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/5/2004 4:30:50 PM
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98LS1
Posts: 7043
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 2000Si
They did that a when the brought back the new Mach I too.
I like the 99-04 GTs a ton, but I gotta hand it to the 05 GT 3V motors.
The '05 GT traps under 100mph....I don't think it's near par with a Mach I or an f-body. That's all she's got captain.
quote:
ORIGINAL: OICW
Hey man, if you think I'm arguing, then my apologies. I thought I'm just having a cool discussion, didn't mean to offend anybody.
You didn't, I was just kidding about the blower and it's since went to this.
quote:
But why would you say GM engineering > Ford?
They make more power using old pushrod motors than Ford does using DOHC blown motors. Even the 5.0 cammer can't compete with the OHV 5.0 GM 302.
quote:
Because Ford uses a blower and GM doesn't? Well, a supercharged vehicle with a factory warranty is not as simple as some guy doing it in his own garage. It takes engineering to design a proper FI engine. If it's so simple, why didn't GM do it? instead of LS6, just SC an LS1 for the Z06.
Have you never heard of a 3.8L GM. It's been turbo'd/blown since the beginning of time and still is being turbo'd/blown.
quote:
And if you're talking about hp/liter (what most people think of when it comes to engine technology), then Mach1s and pre 03 Cobras rule again (excluding z06, different class).
HP/liter means dick to me. HP/pound...
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1998 TransAm
Idle/Walkaround
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/5/2004 4:52:30 PM
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98LS1
Posts: 7043
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iwrxit
HP/liter means everything to me.
I figured it would....
STFU ricer!
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/5/2004 5:45:03 PM
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Dan04COBRA
Team MF Member #420
Posts: 14532
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TommyV8
LS1 fbodies are more affordable than a lot of people think. I am a bit of a broke-ass. I got mine used. It was less than 2 years old and had 26k miles, just broken in, with the balance of the factory warranty. I paid less than $16k. Brand new it was maybe around $24k, and that's because of the $1000 t-top option. My g/f got her first '01 Z28 (she's on her 2nd one now) for just under $15k, with more options and fewer miles than mine, still on the factory warranty, although it did not have t-tops. If you get an SS or a WS6 that's when it's easy to overpay without any real performance gain. Stick to the Z28 for the best bang for the buck.
Yeah, but I wasn't making fun of the price. I was one of the first people here trying to explain they typically cost no more than a fully loaded GT. I was saying that you really need to love the type of car it is to be able to put up with the windshield, blind spots and odd dash & sitting on the ground.
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Black 04 Cobra For Sale.
Will trade for 93 older/non 4-eye fox + $$.
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/5/2004 5:47:12 PM
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98LS1
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Haha, you get used to it.
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/5/2004 5:52:35 PM
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TommyV8
Posts: 4026
Joined: 7/26/2004
From: St. Louis, MO
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The blind spots do suck.
_____________________________
2002 Camaro Z28
Automatic, stock converter, 2.73 gears
Airbox lid, longtube headers, catless Y-pipe, cutout, Nitto drag radials
12.72 @ 108.62 1.93 60 ft
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/5/2004 6:32:12 PM
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Mysterious
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Joined: 7/15/2003
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okay so now about 100hp per liter? its what a certain Fbody sitting nearby makes... oh yeah 7.5 liters too, pushing only 3100lbs, hhhmmm....
nope not a crappy LS1/LT1 either, nor is it a silly retarded chevy... muhahahahahahhaaaa!
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I didnt force anyone to buy half an engine, or in the case of a Honda, 1/4 of an engine...
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/5/2004 9:57:51 PM
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Obsol3te
Posts: 5819
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Yeah HP per Pound is where it Bee's.
My car isn't even the Light fox :(
It weighs in almost the same as a 99-04 GT 
Around 3220lbs without Driver.
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/6/2004 3:02:11 PM
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TommyV8
Posts: 4026
Joined: 7/26/2004
From: St. Louis, MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mysterious
okay so now about 100hp per liter? its what a certain Fbody sitting nearby makes... oh yeah 7.5 liters too, pushing only 3100lbs, hhhmmm....
nope not a crappy LS1/LT1 either, nor is it a silly retarded chevy... muhahahahahahhaaaa!
A guy in my local fbody club has a supercharged 383 stroker (about 6.3L, by my calculations) that put down 683hp to the rear wheels. Thats over 100hp per liter.
It's an LS1. Nothing crappy about that.
_____________________________
2002 Camaro Z28
Automatic, stock converter, 2.73 gears
Airbox lid, longtube headers, catless Y-pipe, cutout, Nitto drag radials
12.72 @ 108.62 1.93 60 ft
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/6/2004 3:33:48 PM
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OICW
Posts: 517
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Canada
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 98LS1
They make more power using old pushrod motors than Ford does using DOHC blown motors. Even the 5.0 cammer can't compete with the OHV 5.0 GM 302.
Have you never heard of a 3.8L GM. It's been turbo'd/blown since the beginning of time and still is being turbo'd/blown.
HP/liter means dick to me. HP/pound...
1. You gotta remember, auto manufacturers are businessmen, not engineers. Ford COULD design a really powerful pushrod engine, but what's the point? That's the mistake GM made, blindly produce a bunch of powerful engines and having to cut the Fbody afterwards. Your engine is really only as good as the car it's in.
If you want to see a company's true performance engineering, look at their top cars, that means GT, SRT10, and Z06. (and I don't mean the mustang GT of course). And please, don't complain about the blower on the GT, not even Ferrari guys complain about that.
2. Yeah, and Ford has turboed its Powerstroke for a long time too, so? Again, we started by comparing Mustangs and Camaros, keep all the other fancy engines out of the discussion. I never said GM make bad engines, they make some very good ones in fact.
3. 03 Cobras, GTs, Lightnings. Oh wait, that's right, I'm not suppose to talk about FI engines. Alright, GM is da man, Cobras, Supras, SRT4s, DSMs and the rally twins are all pussies for using a turbo or blower.
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/6/2004 5:01:06 PM
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98LS1
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People buy Mustangs b/c they are led by, either their brother, mother, father, sister, friend, priest, etc..., to believe that it is teh ****. It is fast, it handles like Jesus, accelerates like God. It does none of the above, but everyone with one feels that it does. Ford advertised the hell out of the Mustang, I don't ever recall seeing an ad for an f-body. Ford marketing kicked ass. Who else can lie to the public for years and still sell cars to them.
The GT....it's a great car. If that's your bag go for it. Me, being more of an N/A guy, would opt for the ZL1 Camaro or so. All aluminum 427 with 600 N/A hp....that would be more what I would be after. Big cubes making more power.
FI isn't bad, I never said it is or that it is for pussies. Most car makers use FI to keep up with others. I guess since I'm in the group they're trying to keep up with, I have a different outlook on the scenario. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, even Dodge are all using F/I to keep up with the bigger motors. They're doing it quite well also. I've just ALWAYS been a domestic fan and feel that Ford has had to resort to using FI to keep up with GM rather than using a larger motor. It works for them, I guess most Mustang owners don't feel the way I do. I constantly hear guys on here bitch about Ford not putting a bigger motor in their cars though. I guess they're just into the old muscle cars, like me.
And also, what are you talking aboot, eh?
< Message edited by 98LS1 -- 11/6/2004 5:03:21 PM >
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/7/2004 2:30:39 AM
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OICW
Posts: 517
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Canada
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Hey, don't just blame me for going a thousand miles off the topic, I think we're both getting a little crazy here.
But just to let you know, FI is not just to "keep up" with bigger motors, but also increase energy efficient. Thermal efficiency decreased with large thermal transfer areas, as it's in a big engine. Your combustion volumetric efficiency also decreases with enlarged cylinder volume, as your spark is unable to ignite all the gas at once (only for gas engines though). And finally, large motors means large moving masses and therefore greater inertia and more friction forces.
By using a smaller engine, you can achieve much better fuel efficiency than a large engine. And since 90% of all sports cars are still driven on the road, it's an important factor. A high HP NA engine is beautiful, almost a work of art, but artistic is the last thing you care when sitting in traffic for an hour dealing with inadequate torque and low rpm performance and refinement.
I own neither a Mustang nor an F-body, therefore I believe my opinions should be one of the most unbias opinions here. I totally respect LS1s just as much as you do, and my dream car has always been a Z06. I even voted the LS2 C6 as the best car of the year at Road and Track. So I would be the last person on this site to trash talk about the LS engine family.
That having been said, when Ford design an engine that can be easily tuned to 800 hp without even touching one bolt on the valve cover downwards, and can run high 9's, respect is well deserved. Yes it uses a blower, so what? I just don't want to sound like the ricer that always complain about extra cylinders, extra plug, extra heads and cams, extra pistons ... of a V8. Just go with what you have and admit what's better. Go with a Cobra, then stop complaining about the extra displacement. Go with an LS1, stop complaining about the blower.
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/7/2004 10:26:50 AM
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Dan04COBRA
Team MF Member #420
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Both of you are arguing about reasons why the F-body died and according to GM statements, contract negotiations between the facilities & GM couldn't be worked out, which lead to the demise of the F-body, not weak sales.
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Black 04 Cobra For Sale.
Will trade for 93 older/non 4-eye fox + $$.
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RE: Mach1 vs. ls1 trans am - 11/7/2004 2:27:42 PM
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98LS1
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I get better gas mileage than mostly any of the FI 4 cylinder cars. My EPA is 22/28 I believe. I've been averaging over 20mpg. I have gears and my car sees redline quite often.
All that on a sidenote. The Cobra is awesome. I've said it a million times. I'd love to have one. If I could have gotten one for the price of my LS1, I probably would have. I wished GM would have forged the LS1 and made the compression suitable to run a decent amount of boost w/o having to worry about it going to ****. That would have been great. They didn't, so now I'm stuck trying to make my car fast the N/A way. Which is still great. Racing "all motor" still means something to some people.
The cars really shouldn't be compared. That's why they have different classes for such cases.
On a sidenote, does the Mach I have forged internals?
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1998 TransAm
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