Ill keep this short. My buddy, his bro and myself were traveling down a strait, flat, empty 2 lane road when a ls1 ta pulled up next to us. I looked over and saw the passenger say "Mach1." I looked over and gave the guy a nod and it was on. I dropped to 2nd at about 35 mph, 3 honks and we were off. I scratched 3rd and pulled about half a car up to 90 and we shut down. The end. ;)

Whats your RWHP??? Please share with us because certain people dont believe that 275-280 rwhp will hang with or beat a LS1. Unless you have mods thats what you should be pushing.

the ls1 is the god of engines they are unstoppable from stock and modded they beat the speed of light

Obvisously you need to lay off the crack! LOL

Too many people converting now-a-days :(

ORIGINAL: jdaniel

Whats your RWHP??? Please share with us because certain people dont believe that 275-280 rwhp will hang with or beat a LS1. Unless you have mods thats what you should be pushing.



Im pretty sure, the new mach 1's are rated at 305 hp
They also have the 3.89 gears which haul too.

ORIGINAL: stangsrda****

ORIGINAL: jdaniel

Whats your RWHP??? Please share with us because certain people dont believe that 275-280 rwhp will hang with or beat a LS1. Unless you have mods thats what you should be pushing.



Im pretty sure, the new mach 1's are rated at 305 hp
They also have the 3.89 gears which haul too.


They're rated at 305, but some have dyno'd around 280-290s to the wheels. Also Mach I's come stock with 3.55s.

THANK YOU, Si.

j00s welcome Mr Daniel~

How come 95% of people here all have a different answer for the gears that come with Mach 1's...it makes my eyes bleed.

Amazing that a NON-MUSTANG OWNER TAKES YOU ALL TO SCHOOL!!!!!!!!!!

Good race & good thing you kept it short!!!!

I knew what they were and thats why I was thanking Si for correcting that guy on the rear and the HP rating. lol ;)

good story. the "real" races were starting to get few and far between.

you can get a Mach 1 with 4.10 gears, I read that in car and driver mag when the mach1 came out.

You cannot get a mach1 with factory 410s. Thanks to the import guy for setting the record strait on my domestic. ;)

ORIGINAL: EmptyEvergreen

the ls1 is the god of engines they are unstoppable from stock and modded they beat the speed of light

Empty you crack my **** up. Remember this?
quote:
ORIGINAL: EmptyEvergreen
"no way man...i saw an LS1 fight godzilla and the LS1 beat godzilla and it looked in the air and was like what do you think of that god and god was like bring it bitch so they fought and the LS1 beat god now the LS1 is god because its the greatest thing ever"
That's in my sig on other boards I post on.:D

Mach1, what speed does your car trap at? That would determine the winner in a highway race like this one. My LS1 is an automatic and trapped at 104 bone stock (105 now). Your Mach is running pretty well to keep up with Ellis on the highway. Nice kill!;)

nice kill mach 1 i love to hear mustangs beating ls1s doesnt happen often tho

ORIGINAL: jdaniel

Whats your RWHP??? Please share with us because certain people dont believe that 275-280 rwhp will hang with or beat a LS1. Unless you have mods thats what you should be pushing.


It's possible for a car with that little RWHP to beat an LS1. I'd say so from a dig. Stock 2.73 rear end coupled with an auto, it'd be a pig out of the hole. Against any other type of LS1, one with factory optioned 3.23 gears or 3.42's for an M6, there shouldn't be much of a chance, especially from a roll. This all assuming that the two cars are nearly identical in weight.

Anyway, I believe this guy. He seems to be one of the more level headed and honest Mustang owners on this hur site.

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

ORIGINAL: jdaniel

Whats your RWHP??? Please share with us because certain people dont believe that 275-280 rwhp will hang with or beat a LS1. Unless you have mods thats what you should be pushing.


It's possible for a car with that little RWHP to beat an LS1. I'd say so from a dig. Stock 2.73 rear end coupled with an auto, it'd be a pig out of the hole. Against any other type of LS1, one with factory optioned 3.23 gears or 3.42's for an M6, there shouldn't be much of a chance, especially from a roll. This all assuming that the two cars are nearly identical in weight.

Anyway, I believe this guy. He seems to be one of the more level headed and honest Mustang owners on this hur site.

I agree, definitely doable. The Mach 1 is the most comparable Stang to the LS1.

Except 03-04 Cobra's which say Goodbye to TA/Z28 LS1's :D

ORIGINAL: Dan02GT

Except 03-04 Cobra's which say Goodbye to TA/Z28 LS1's :D


haaahaa! 03-04 cobra>anything affordable...except the STi.

ORIGINAL: Dan02GT

Except 03-04 Cobra's which say Goodbye to TA/Z28 LS1's :D


Now no disrespect to the ls1 guys but this is why they dont give any credit to the mach1. They cant accept the fact that the 2nd in line n/a stang is very capable of winning in a drag race. THe mach1 also brakes and handles better. :D

ORIGINAL: Dan02GT

Except 03-04 Cobra's which say Goodbye to TA/Z28 LS1's :D


Bah....stupid blower. It's like using viagra when you're old. "Engine too small? Can't go fast anymore? Have I got something for you." [8D]

ORIGINAL: Mach1

Now no disrespect to the ls1 guys but this is why they dont give any credit to the mach1. They cant accept the fact that the 2nd in line n/a stang is very capable of winning in a drag race. THe mach1 also brakes and handles better. :D


The most I've seen any Mach 1 put down was 274rwhp bone stock. Even if they're putting down 280-285, they're still a good 15-20rwhp behind a stock LS1, which some guys have put down over 320rwhp stock. All drivers equal, an M6 LS1 will win against an M5 Mach 1. I don't think anyone can debate that. About them handling better....is there any proof of this, or are you just shooting in the dark?

Mach 1's, properly driven, run mid to low 13's, similar to an LS1. The average ET may be a tenth or two in favor of the LS1, but it's pretty close. I believe the choice of transmission makes a bigger difference in the Machs than it does in the fbody. At least this has been my firsthand experience at the strip(watching, not driving). My g/f beat a stock 5-speed Mach in her stock auto '01 Z28 (2.73 gears) but it was close.

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

ORIGINAL: Dan02GT

Except 03-04 Cobra's which say Goodbye to TA/Z28 LS1's :D


Bah....stupid blower. It's like using viagra when you're old. "Engine too small? Can't go fast anymore? Have I got something for you." [8D]

ORIGINAL: Mach1

Now no disrespect to the ls1 guys but this is why they dont give any credit to the mach1. They cant accept the fact that the 2nd in line n/a stang is very capable of winning in a drag race. THe mach1 also brakes and handles better. :D


The most I've seen any Mach 1 put down was 274rwhp bone stock. Even if they're putting down 280-285, they're still a good 15-20rwhp behind a stock LS1, which some guys have put down over 320rwhp stock. All drivers equal, an M6 LS1 will win against an M5 Mach 1. I don't think anyone can debate that. About them handling better....is there any proof of this, or are you just shooting in the dark?


Hp isnt everything in a race. The ls1 is more powerful im not denying that. Im saying in a drag race, from a faster roll the ls1 should win but not always. On the freeway however the ls1 is definitly faster. The brakes on the mach1 are a half inch bigger then the corvettes, as for handling all i can say is its my opinion, and both my friends (one who has an ss) that the mach1 takes turns better with its tokicos, perf. springs and subframe connectors.

"All drivers equal, an M6 LS1 will win against an M5 Mach 1"

I disagree, but this subject has been beaten to death and i wont go there. That guy hit it the same time i did and i pulled on him so...

I guess...

300+rwhp plus tons of torque with a 3.42 rear end vs 280+rwhp with decent torque coupled with 3.55's....both weigh nearly the same....I'm going with the more powerful car.

But it's fun to beat a dead horse.

To be honest i was gonna buy a ws6 until i saw a could pick up a new warrantied mach1 for just over 20. Dont underestimate the mach1s tq tho, stock they will make 340 lb/ft. If i were to mod i would definitly go fbody tho. Dont think im one of those stubborn ford guys, i only bought the mach1 cuz it was awsome car at a great price and i love it. Cobra was way too much.

Warranty > f-body....

Thats what my ls1 buddy said lol.

Brand new for just over $20k?[:-] Damn, even as a Chevy guy I woulda been all over that deal!

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

Bah....stupid blower. It's like using viagra when you're old. "Engine too small? Can't go fast anymore? Have I got something for you." [8D]

Something I, and many others, just don't get.

Mustang guys never complain that they loose to F-bodies because they displaces 1.1L more, yet F-body guys always complain about the blower.

Let's see Chevy make a 4.6L LS1 and see how hard it pulls against a Mach 1. Then you can start complain about being boosted.

The Cobras are faster, end of story. Stock for stock, or mod for mod (as in $ for $ in mod), the Cobra is faster without ever touching a thing inside the engine.

Mach1 vs Trans Am LS1 is a drivers race, there is a blue one around here, but until I get my car running right, I'm keeping to the shadows... next time go past 90, since that is where we shine, run them both and compare the differences! Oh and try from a stop too! I wanna know the results!

ORIGINAL: OICW

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

Bah....stupid blower. It's like using viagra when you're old. "Engine too small? Can't go fast anymore? Have I got something for you." [8D]

Something I, and many others, just don't get.

Mustang guys never complain that they loose to F-bodies because they displaces 1.1L more, yet F-body guys always complain about the blower.

Let's see Chevy make a 4.6L LS1 and see how hard it pulls against a Mach 1. Then you can start complain about being boosted.

The Cobras are faster, end of story. Stock for stock, or mod for mod (as in $ for $ in mod), the Cobra is faster without ever touching a thing inside the engine.


HA, thats a lie! Why would chevy do that? If chevy put a SC on their engines, you guys would be toast! Man I wish they would... I want one!

if you put a super charger in your engine we get to bore ours to your level of displacement its only fair

ORIGINAL: EmptyEvergreen

if you put a super charger in your engine we get to bore ours to your level of displacement its only fair

Good point. From the power/liter standpoint, a theoretical 5.7L Mach 1 would destroy a 5.7L LS1. Kind of a moot point though, just like the theoretical N/A '03 Cobra. Mach 1~LS1, '03 Cobra>LS1. The End.

ORIGINAL: OICW

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

Bah....stupid blower. It's like using viagra when you're old. "Engine too small? Can't go fast anymore? Have I got something for you." [8D]

Let's see Chevy make a 4.6L LS1 and see how hard it pulls against a Mach 1. Then you can start complain about being boosted.

The Cobras are faster, end of story. Stock for stock, or mod for mod (as in $ for $ in mod), the Cobra is faster without ever touching a thing inside the engine.


You took that way out of context, but since you brought it up. GM has a Cadillac 4.6L motor that makes 320hp N/A, that's right a 281. And, since you brought it up, GM does have an LS1 302. It makes 435hp all motor and is pushrod. Ford has the 302 cammer which makes 415 hp, I guess that's decent. Yet GM's old pushrod powerplant makes more hp. LSx > anything.

And the only part you're right on in the 2nd part of this statement is that $ for $ the Cobra is faster, that's b/c it starts out F/I. Any forced induction car is going to be easier to mod to gain more hp.

Study first, don't be blind to one car manufacturer, then try again.

ORIGINAL: EmptyEvergreen

if you put a super charger in your engine we get to bore ours to your level of displacement its only fair

OK you can up your displacment, but we get to use dual overhead cams like you, it's only fair. Honestly this place never changes, I see everyone is still bench/magazine racing. PUT DOWN THE KEYBOARD AND GO TO THE TRACK.

ORIGINAL: JD1969

ORIGINAL: EmptyEvergreen

if you put a super charger in your engine we get to bore ours to your level of displacement its only fair

OK you can up your displacment, but we get to use dual overhead cams like you, it's only fair. Honestly this place never changes, I see everyone is still bench/magazine racing. PUT DOWN THE KEYBOARD AND GO TO THE TRACK.


GM experimented with the duel overhead cam once, remember the ZR-1? That thing was sick, trust me, they don't want us to do that!

ORIGINAL: EmptyEvergreen

if you put a super charger in your engine we get to bore ours to your level of displacement its only fair


Nah, this is how it goes.

00 LS1 00 Mustang
1. mod 1 1. Mod 1
2. mod 2 2. Mod 2
3. mod 3 3. Mod 3

That is fair, you don't get to do more mods because you're manufacturer doesn't give you our dislpacement, thats not fair. Run what you brung.

ORIGINAL: WS6speeDemon

ORIGINAL: JD1969

ORIGINAL: EmptyEvergreen

if you put a super charger in your engine we get to bore ours to your level of displacement its only fair

OK you can up your displacment, but we get to use dual overhead cams like you, it's only fair. Honestly this place never changes, I see everyone is still bench/magazine racing. PUT DOWN THE KEYBOARD AND GO TO THE TRACK.


GM experimented with the duel overhead cam once, remember the ZR-1? That thing was sick, trust me, they don't want us to do that!

GM seems to be doing better with pushrods than it did with DOHC.
LS6>LT-5 (405 vs 375)

you cant compare boosted powerplants to n/a...regardless of engine size. boosted owns all. its hard to even compare dohc to sohc. remember the old replacement/displacement thing? maybe ford should just build a bigger motor, keep the blower, and the dohc. then, and only then, can the LS1 lose.

LOL this is so funny. "Well if you do this we get to do that." JD1969 is rihgt. Besides we shouldnt be fighting. Both companies have done such an excelent job. We domestics need to stick together against all that damn rice. I would gladly drive an 03 slobra, or a slomaro. They are awsome cars. Argueing over the internet is just pointless.

ORIGINAL: iwrxit

you cant compare boosted powerplants to n/a...regardless of engine size. boosted owns all. its hard to even compare dohc to sohc. remember the old replacement/displacement thing? maybe ford should just build a bigger motor, keep the blower, and the dohc. then, and only then, can the LS1 lose.


You forgot the first rule....[8D]

and the other 10...

Oh well, GM makes the more powerful engines
That's been established since 93, when the LT1 just creams the poor little mustang.

Before I started getting into anything remotely close to car related.
I only went by looks.
I loved the way the 80's Iroc's looked, and I knew they had a V8
Also LOVED the way the 87-93 Foxes looked too.
I made the choice based on basically that alone.
Then I got into all this modding and crap.
Love the sound they emmit, and love they way it performs.

You can make anything go fast, make it sound almost the way you want it too.
It all comes down to what you just want to be caught driving I guess...?

ORIGINAL: iwrxit

you cant compare boosted powerplants to n/a...regardless of engine size. boosted owns all. its hard to even compare dohc to sohc. remember the old replacement/displacement thing? maybe ford should just build a bigger motor, keep the blower, and the dohc. then, and only then, can the LS1 lose.

NOOOOOO!! TEH LS1 CAN NEVAR LOOOOZE!!!1!!one!!!!eleven!![sm=lol.gif]

you LS1 guys make me want to buy one. but then what would happen to my fuel economy??? wait, it would get BETTER!!! why dont i own one already???

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

You took that way out of context, but since you brought it up. GM has a Cadillac 4.6L motor that makes 320hp N/A, that's right a 281. And, since you brought it up, GM does have an LS1 302. It makes 435hp all motor and is pushrod. Ford has the 302 cammer which makes 415 hp, I guess that's decent. Yet GM's old pushrod powerplant makes more hp. LSx > anything.

And the only part you're right on in the 2nd part of this statement is that $ for $ the Cobra is faster, that's b/c it starts out F/I. Any forced induction car is going to be easier to mod to gain more hp.

Study first, don't be blind to one car manufacturer, then try again.



Yes, I know, the Northstar is a wonderful engine, but they're not put into performance cars. So what good is that? Yes, theroretically, you could build a 4.6 NS Camaro with 3000 lbs curb weight, but this isn't a theoretical world. So, again, end of story.

(BTW, you guys (GM EMD) also make a 6000 hp diesel engine for the SD90 locomotive. So?)

Second, when we discuss engines, keep it to regular production models that Joe can easily buy and drive on the street. No need to for special crate engines and such. You don't see me talking about a 5.0 cammer crate motor in the origional post do you? Hmm, I guess you guys have 1100hp 427 Lingenfelters as well, so I guess Mustangs must suck all the way!

My point is, Ford made a 4.6 SC Cobra, really fast, and sold well. GM used to make a 5.7 NA F-body, fast, and did not sell well. Simple as that. No need to say how you could've wooped, slaughtered, roasted and ate us IF, and only IF, GM put a 25 psi twin screw on a forged titanium internals LS1. It didn't happen. And if it did, F-boies would've walked off the face of this planet a lot faster :D

I remember reading a a Super Ford magazine or something that when the 4th gen Camaro came out, everyone thought it looked like a Geo Storm on steriods, and it does! Best part it, the Storm came out on year at least before the 4th gen maro. That's the primary reason it didn't sell well I think, styling, the Storm mentallity couldn't be broken.

The front of my car looks like a Chrysler Concorde. I saw a photoshop of a Concorde with SS badges and an SS hood and smoking rear tires and I gotta admit, it was pretty funny.:D

ORIGINAL: 86HOGT

I remember reading a a Super Ford magazine or something that when the 4th gen Camaro came out, everyone thought it looked like a Geo Storm on steriods, and it does! Best part it, the Storm came out on year at least before the 4th gen maro. That's the primary reason it didn't sell well I think, styling, the Storm mentallity couldn't be broken.


GM's poor marketing laid grounds to the failure of the F-body. The storm had no role in it dying in 2002.

I believe another reason may be the difficulty in getting in and out of them; they have a lower, more laid-back stance than most cars. Mustangs are more traditionally upright, if that makes any sense. But yeah, when's the last time you saw a Camaro commercial? My g/f used to think they died out in the 80's; she didn't even know what a fourth gen was.:(
After she drove mine, however, she had one of her own within a few months.

ORIGINAL: OICW

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

You took that way out of context, but since you brought it up. GM has a Cadillac 4.6L motor that makes 320hp N/A, that's right a 281. And, since you brought it up, GM does have an LS1 302. It makes 435hp all motor and is pushrod. Ford has the 302 cammer which makes 415 hp, I guess that's decent. Yet GM's old pushrod powerplant makes more hp. LSx > anything.

And the only part you're right on in the 2nd part of this statement is that $ for $ the Cobra is faster, that's b/c it starts out F/I. Any forced induction car is going to be easier to mod to gain more hp.

Study first, don't be blind to one car manufacturer, then try again.



Yes, I know, the Northstar is a wonderful engine, but they're not put into performance cars. So what good is that? Yes, theroretically, you could build a 4.6 NS Camaro with 3000 lbs curb weight, but this isn't a theoretical world. So, again, end of story.

(BTW, you guys (GM EMD) also make a 6000 hp diesel engine for the SD90 locomotive. So?)

Second, when we discuss engines, keep it to regular production models that Joe can easily buy and drive on the street. No need to for special crate engines and such. You don't see me talking about a 5.0 cammer crate motor in the origional post do you? Hmm, I guess you guys have 1100hp 427 Lingenfelters as well, so I guess Mustangs must suck all the way!

My point is, Ford made a 4.6 SC Cobra, really fast, and sold well. GM used to make a 5.7 NA F-body, fast, and did not sell well. Simple as that. No need to say how you could've wooped, slaughtered, roasted and ate us IF, and only IF, GM put a 25 psi twin screw on a forged titanium internals LS1. It didn't happen. And if it did, F-boies would've walked off the face of this planet a lot faster :D


Point is, blown Cobra > stock f-body. I never denied it. I was kidding about the viagra post....I even threw in the smiley...If they were a lot cheaper, I'd sell my LS1 and buy a blown Cobra. You're the one who took it to this level.

GM uses old pushrod motors to make tons of power for a pretty cheap price.

Bottom line is that GM engineering > Ford's. Ford's marketing > GM.

ORIGINAL: TommyV8

I believe another reason may be the difficulty in getting in and out of them; they have a lower, more laid-back stance than most cars. Mustangs are more traditionally upright, if that makes any sense. But yeah, when's the last time you saw a Camaro commercial? My g/f used to think they died out in the 80's; she didn't even know what a fourth gen was.:(
After she drove mine, however, she had one of her own within a few months.


Yup, it's not a comfortable car for the people who aren't crazy enough to donate a kidney to own one.

Ford's engineering is not too shabby. They just built a N/A 4.6L base V8 GT that can keep up with the 5.7L LS1 for a very reasonable price. Looks good and handles well, too. Gotta give credit where credit is due.;)

In the end... there is no more Fbodies! LMAO!!! :D

muhahahahahah. lol, Id buy an awsome LS1 excpet there so damn expensive, I paid under 3k for my car and it almost as fast. Im on a tight budget, I couldnt afford to buy expensive mods for a camaro. So mustang wins in my eyes.

ORIGINAL: TommyV8

Ford's engineering is not too shabby. They just built a N/A 4.6L base V8 GT that can keep up with the 5.7L LS1 for a very reasonable price. Looks good and handles well, too. Gotta give credit where credit is due.;)


They did that a when the brought back the new Mach I too.

I like the 99-04 GTs a ton, but I gotta hand it to the 05 GT 3V motors.

300 hp. I <3 it

yes, arent the 05' Gt suppose to be at Par with the Mach 1?

I like them both, F-bodies and Mustangs, but I love the '99 - '04 body styling. Just my preference.

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

You're the one who took it to this level.


Bottom line is that GM engineering > Ford's. Ford's marketing > GM.


Hey man, if you think I'm arguing, then my apologies. I thought I'm just having a cool discussion, didn't mean to offend anybody.

But why would you say GM engineering > Ford?

Because Ford uses a blower and GM doesn't? Well, a supercharged vehicle with a factory warranty is not as simple as some guy doing it in his own garage. It takes engineering to design a proper FI engine. If it's so simple, why didn't GM do it? instead of LS6, just SC an LS1 for the Z06.

And if you're talking about hp/liter (what most people think of when it comes to engine technology), then Mach1s and pre 03 Cobras rule again (excluding z06, different class).

ORIGINAL: Dan02GT

Yup, it's not a comfortable car for the people who aren't crazy enough to donate a kidney to own one.

LS1 fbodies are more affordable than a lot of people think. I am a bit of a broke-ass. I got mine used. It was less than 2 years old and had 26k miles, just broken in, with the balance of the factory warranty. I paid less than $16k. Brand new it was maybe around $24k, and that's because of the $1000 t-top option. My g/f got her first '01 Z28 (she's on her 2nd one now) for just under $15k, with more options and fewer miles than mine, still on the factory warranty, although it did not have t-tops. If you get an SS or a WS6 that's when it's easy to overpay without any real performance gain. Stick to the Z28 for the best bang for the buck.

ORIGINAL: 2000Si

They did that a when the brought back the new Mach I too.

I like the 99-04 GTs a ton, but I gotta hand it to the 05 GT 3V motors.


The '05 GT traps under 100mph....I don't think it's near par with a Mach I or an f-body. That's all she's got captain.

ORIGINAL: OICW

Hey man, if you think I'm arguing, then my apologies. I thought I'm just having a cool discussion, didn't mean to offend anybody.

You didn't, I was just kidding about the blower and it's since went to this.

But why would you say GM engineering > Ford?

They make more power using old pushrod motors than Ford does using DOHC blown motors. Even the 5.0 cammer can't compete with the OHV 5.0 GM 302.

Because Ford uses a blower and GM doesn't? Well, a supercharged vehicle with a factory warranty is not as simple as some guy doing it in his own garage. It takes engineering to design a proper FI engine. If it's so simple, why didn't GM do it? instead of LS6, just SC an LS1 for the Z06.

Have you never heard of a 3.8L GM. It's been turbo'd/blown since the beginning of time and still is being turbo'd/blown.

And if you're talking about hp/liter (what most people think of when it comes to engine technology), then Mach1s and pre 03 Cobras rule again (excluding z06, different class).


HP/liter means dick to me. HP/pound...

HP/liter means everything to me.

ORIGINAL: iwrxit

HP/liter means everything to me.


I figured it would....[8D]

STFU ricer!

ORIGINAL: TommyV8
LS1 fbodies are more affordable than a lot of people think. I am a bit of a broke-ass. I got mine used. It was less than 2 years old and had 26k miles, just broken in, with the balance of the factory warranty. I paid less than $16k. Brand new it was maybe around $24k, and that's because of the $1000 t-top option. My g/f got her first '01 Z28 (she's on her 2nd one now) for just under $15k, with more options and fewer miles than mine, still on the factory warranty, although it did not have t-tops. If you get an SS or a WS6 that's when it's easy to overpay without any real performance gain. Stick to the Z28 for the best bang for the buck.


Yeah, but I wasn't making fun of the price. I was one of the first people here trying to explain they typically cost no more than a fully loaded GT. I was saying that you really need to love the type of car it is to be able to put up with the windshield, blind spots and odd dash & sitting on the ground.

Haha, you get used to it.

The blind spots do suck.

okay so now about 100hp per liter? its what a certain Fbody sitting nearby makes... oh yeah 7.5 liters too, pushing only 3100lbs, hhhmmm....

nope not a crappy LS1/LT1 either, nor is it a silly retarded chevy... muhahahahahahhaaaa!

ORIGINAL: 98LS1
I figured it would....[8D]

STFU ricer!


ok sir...i will:(

Yeah HP per Pound is where it Bee's.
My car isn't even the Light fox :(
It weighs in almost the same as a 99-04 GT :(
Around 3220lbs without Driver.

god thats heavy. my car is around 3010 w/ driver.

ORIGINAL: Mysterious

okay so now about 100hp per liter? its what a certain Fbody sitting nearby makes... oh yeah 7.5 liters too, pushing only 3100lbs, hhhmmm....

nope not a crappy LS1/LT1 either, nor is it a silly retarded chevy... muhahahahahahhaaaa!

A guy in my local fbody club has a supercharged 383 stroker (about 6.3L, by my calculations) that put down 683hp to the rear wheels. Thats over 100hp per liter.
It's an LS1. Nothing crappy about that.;)

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

They make more power using old pushrod motors than Ford does using DOHC blown motors. Even the 5.0 cammer can't compete with the OHV 5.0 GM 302.


Have you never heard of a 3.8L GM. It's been turbo'd/blown since the beginning of time and still is being turbo'd/blown.


HP/liter means dick to me. HP/pound...



1. You gotta remember, auto manufacturers are businessmen, not engineers. Ford COULD design a really powerful pushrod engine, but what's the point? That's the mistake GM made, blindly produce a bunch of powerful engines and having to cut the Fbody afterwards. Your engine is really only as good as the car it's in.

If you want to see a company's true performance engineering, look at their top cars, that means GT, SRT10, and Z06. (and I don't mean the mustang GT of course). And please, don't complain about the blower on the GT, not even Ferrari guys complain about that.


2. Yeah, and Ford has turboed its Powerstroke for a long time too, so? Again, we started by comparing Mustangs and Camaros, keep all the other fancy engines out of the discussion. I never said GM make bad engines, they make some very good ones in fact.


3. 03 Cobras, GTs, Lightnings. Oh wait, that's right, I'm not suppose to talk about FI engines. Alright, GM is da man, Cobras, Supras, SRT4s, DSMs and the rally twins are all pussies for using a turbo or blower.

People buy Mustangs b/c they are led by, either their brother, mother, father, sister, friend, priest, etc..., to believe that it is teh ****. It is fast, it handles like Jesus, accelerates like God. It does none of the above, but everyone with one feels that it does. Ford advertised the hell out of the Mustang, I don't ever recall seeing an ad for an f-body. Ford marketing kicked ass. Who else can lie to the public for years and still sell cars to them.

The GT....it's a great car. If that's your bag go for it. Me, being more of an N/A guy, would opt for the ZL1 Camaro or so. All aluminum 427 with 600 N/A hp....that would be more what I would be after. Big cubes making more power.

FI isn't bad, I never said it is or that it is for pussies. Most car makers use FI to keep up with others. I guess since I'm in the group they're trying to keep up with, I have a different outlook on the scenario. Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, even Dodge are all using F/I to keep up with the bigger motors. They're doing it quite well also. I've just ALWAYS been a domestic fan and feel that Ford has had to resort to using FI to keep up with GM rather than using a larger motor. It works for them, I guess most Mustang owners don't feel the way I do. I constantly hear guys on here bitch about Ford not putting a bigger motor in their cars though. I guess they're just into the old muscle cars, like me.

And also, what are you talking aboot, eh?

Hey, don't just blame me for going a thousand miles off the topic, I think we're both getting a little crazy here.

But just to let you know, FI is not just to "keep up" with bigger motors, but also increase energy efficient. Thermal efficiency decreased with large thermal transfer areas, as it's in a big engine. Your combustion volumetric efficiency also decreases with enlarged cylinder volume, as your spark is unable to ignite all the gas at once (only for gas engines though). And finally, large motors means large moving masses and therefore greater inertia and more friction forces.

By using a smaller engine, you can achieve much better fuel efficiency than a large engine. And since 90% of all sports cars are still driven on the road, it's an important factor. A high HP NA engine is beautiful, almost a work of art, but artistic is the last thing you care when sitting in traffic for an hour dealing with inadequate torque and low rpm performance and refinement.

I own neither a Mustang nor an F-body, therefore I believe my opinions should be one of the most unbias opinions here. I totally respect LS1s just as much as you do, and my dream car has always been a Z06. I even voted the LS2 C6 as the best car of the year at Road and Track. So I would be the last person on this site to trash talk about the LS engine family.

That having been said, when Ford design an engine that can be easily tuned to 800 hp without even touching one bolt on the valve cover downwards, and can run high 9's, respect is well deserved. Yes it uses a blower, so what? I just don't want to sound like the ricer that always complain about extra cylinders, extra plug, extra heads and cams, extra pistons ... of a V8. Just go with what you have and admit what's better. Go with a Cobra, then stop complaining about the extra displacement. Go with an LS1, stop complaining about the blower.

Both of you are arguing about reasons why the F-body died and according to GM statements, contract negotiations between the facilities & GM couldn't be worked out, which lead to the demise of the F-body, not weak sales.

I get better gas mileage than mostly any of the FI 4 cylinder cars. My EPA is 22/28 I believe. I've been averaging over 20mpg. I have gears and my car sees redline quite often.

All that on a sidenote. The Cobra is awesome. I've said it a million times. I'd love to have one. If I could have gotten one for the price of my LS1, I probably would have. I wished GM would have forged the LS1 and made the compression suitable to run a decent amount of boost w/o having to worry about it going to ****. That would have been great. They didn't, so now I'm stuck trying to make my car fast the N/A way. Which is still great. Racing "all motor" still means something to some people.

The cars really shouldn't be compared. That's why they have different classes for such cases.

On a sidenote, does the Mach I have forged internals?

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

I get better gas mileage than mostly any of the FI 4 cylinder cars. My EPA is 22/28 I believe. I've been averaging over 20mpg. I have gears and my car sees redline quite often.


I still have a higher final drive, I see redline a TON and I still manage between 23-27 mpg city. :D


only problem is i'm not as fast. [&:]

ORIGINAL: 2000Si

I still have a higher final drive, I see redline a TON and I still manage between 23-27 mpg city. :D


You're not FI'ed either.


only problem is i'm not as fast. [&:]


I'm sure you're closer than you think...[8D]

An M6 LS1 is supposed to get over 30mpg. I have teh stupid A4 with only, well, 4 gears.

I've seen FI'd B18 hatches get upwards of 30 mpg city. The odd thing about my car is I seem to get better gas mileage if i rev the hell out of it more.

"My EPA is 22/28 I believe. I've been averaging over 20mpg. I have gears and my car sees redline quite often."

You average about 25 mpg and you have gears and open it up often....well i dont wanna call you a liar but i have friends with more then a few fbodys and they are pretty much stock and dont mash all that much and are lucky if they see 20. Are you on the freeway all the time or something? I myself like to open my car up but im not racing around everywhere and i usually get about 18-19 and i consider that pretty good. Of course on the freeway i get a lot better.

22/28 = 22 city and 28 on the highway.

It's usually a mix of highway driving and city driving with me. I've been consistantly getting at least 21mpg with 3.73 gears.

EDIT: I would figure the M6 cars would get quite a bit better mileage than I am.

And LS1 CAN get 28 on the highway (rated at 18 city) if you drive conservatively (is't just me or does that sounds like a oxymoron together with LS1 :D) But you'd have to put up with a lot of skipshifting and lugging.

However, that is bone stock, add some of those crazy cams making 600hp and just watch your mileage dip into the single digits. A 600 hp Supra can get 25 mpg all day, the reason being that a turbo is totally inactive under light driving, and your engine will function just like a regular 3.0 I6. A 700 hp Cobra with stock internals would also get similar gas mileage as a stock one.

But, please, stop the argument of Chevy vs. Ford. I said in my last post that I have nothing against either, and even went as far as calling a naturally aspirated LS1 "work of art".

http://www.mustangforums.com/upfiles/2937/asppg_Ca809858686.jpg

[8D]

I have an almost completely stock automatic LS1 (air intake, that's it) with 2.73 gears and I get 22-23 mpg. That's almost all highway. When I did highway/city I got 20 mpg. My g/f has 3.23 gears in her Z28 and gets less than that. I would think that with 3.73's you would get horrible mileage.

ORIGINAL: 98LS1

http://www.mustangforums.com/upfiles/2937/asppg_Ca809858686.jpg

[8D]

[sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif][sm=lol.gif]

LS1 is God. If He desires, He'll say: "Let there be MPG" and instantly will appear 1000 mpg.

Everyone's happy now? :D

i cant believe that stupid engine gets better mpg than my "economy" car.
i got 18/26 stock. best ever was 31 hwy on a road trip. needles to say, i got much lesss w/ big turbo and shorter gears.

ORIGINAL: iwrxit

i cant believe that stupid engine gets better mpg than my "economy" car.


http://www.valdosta.edu/ghp/ghp2003/theatre/images/improv/SlingBlade.jpg

"You ought not talk that way. You just a boy."

LS1's baaaaaaaaaahhh!!!

http://img125.exs.cx/img125/2919/1youstupid.jpg

LOL! Yeah...right...ummm...you sure it wasn't a V-6 Firebird? Better check that one out...bring that Mach...lets see how you do against a WS6.

Nice race, both the mach's and LS1's are great when you start modding them, ive seen mach's with 4.30, exhaust, and intake rip off 12.7's......


Rich

ORIGINAL: hepcatws6

LOL! Yeah...right...ummm...you sure it wasn't a V-6 Firebird? Better check that one out...bring that Mach...lets see how you do against a WS6.


It was a V12.



Another ls1 guy who cant handle the fact that the second down in the line stang can take an ls1. :(

ORIGINAL: Mach1
Another ls1 guy who cant handle the fact that the second down in the line stang can take an ls1. :(

If the Mach is a manual and the LS1 is an auto then yes it can happen, although I went 13.52 @ 104 stock, probably quicker than most Mach 1's. Manual vs manual or especially auto vs auto the advantage is to the LS1, assuming comparable driving skills.

Both can be sticks and it can happen. Ls1s arent unbeatable ya know. The gearing in those things suck, first gear ends like at 55.

In any case, it's pretty close, maybe too close to call.

ORIGINAL: Mach1
Ls1s arent unbeatable ya know.

QUE???[:-] please dont say that.

oh, mach 1 guy...i see you live in martinez. im from richmond. maybe we can find some action when i drive down there again. how does milpitas or concord sound?

Ya we can prolly find somewhere to run em. What all do you have done? Got a video camera?

ORIGINAL: Mach1

Both can be sticks and it can happen. Ls1s arent unbeatable ya know. The gearing in those things suck, first gear ends like at 55.


What are you talking about? An M6 LS1 comes with 3.42 gears stock. With a 6 speed tranny that brings the gearing down lower than the actual 3.42. It's nearly like having 3.73's from the factory. I've had one, although it was an LT1 car. Hell, it's an option on the A4 LS1's to get 3.27's. This guy, TommyV8, went 13.5 with ****ty 2.73 gears. Let's see a Mach I auto with 2.73's out back run 14.5, much less a 13.5.

Mach I's are awesome cars, but they're not gonna run with an LS1 unless it is an A4 with 2.73 gears. Then the Mach I will have a chance from a dig. From a roll, it'd be ugly.

If you can show me where Mach I's are putting down 300+ rwhp bone stock, then I'll say you have a decent argument. But I don't see it happening.

i have an STi swap+stand alone+fuel+tranny..just about everything. it should be turned over in the next month. no camera yet.

to stay on-topic...my buddy russ says the LT1 starts making power @1800rpm...and the LS1 start making power@3000rpm...what gives?

I dont really wanna argrue with you. I know the ls1 is a more powerful engine, but peak engine power isnt everything. This is my opinion from experience: I agree from a roll the ls1 should almost always win unless somethings wrong with it, but down low a mach1 can match any ls1 with whatever transmission the ls1 has assuming you have equal drivers. (Auto vs. auto ill definitly give the victory to an ls1) I ran a few ls1s, as long as we went from a slow roll or dig i was able to barley pull or match. On the freeway however i got walked, (The vette really walked me) MY buddy has a 00 ss and even he tells people i can pull on him down low. And dont say "oh well he cant drive" or "oh well his car must be screwed up." He has the 3.42s, the rear end gears arent bad, but 1st is WAY tall and at 30 im at my peak power levels hes still in the middle of 1st, and last time i checked ls1s are really powerful in the upper rpm ranges. Ive raced 3 ls1s. My friends 00ss m6(pictured below next to my old car) my friends a4 vette which i was able to pull a few feet down low, but then we got on the freeway and he really walked me bad. The last ls1 i raced was this ta. Like i said b4 i was actually looking to buy a ws6, but when i saw the deal i could get on a NEW warrantied car, buying the ws6 wouldnt of been a very smart move. Ive been around a lot of fbodies and i feel i know more about them then the average car enthusiest. Ive also been behind the wheel of more then a few of them. When i first got my car after i broke it in i ran the ss, b4 i thought i didnt have a chance in hell, but to my suprise i was out front by a little. Then we went on the freeway and i saw that my friends new custom license plate that said "1SICLS1." Anyway its not really a big deal, i hope we can all be friends. :D

2000 super sport (http://cardomain.com/id/1sicls1)

That's just the way it feels. It feels to me that my LT1 car was way faster down low, but it wasn't.

Stock LS1 dyno:

http://www.geocities.com/miner_49/images/Dyno9_07_02.jpg

Stock LT1 dyno:

http://www.dynoperformance.com/jpgraph/graph_hptq.php?ID=636&width=680&height=450

The only reason it feels that way is b/c the LT1 falls short up top where the LS1 continues to pull and pull and pull.

ORIGINAL: iwrxit

i have an STi swap+stand alone+fuel+tranny..just about everything. it should be turned over in the next month. no camera yet.

to stay on-topic...my buddy russ says the LT1 starts making power @1800rpm...and the LS1 start making power@3000rpm...what gives?


Well i dont know much about suburus but im cool off getting my ass kicked.

The ls1 is more of a top end engine then the lt1.

Mach, I didn't know you meant it like that. Sure I'd say you could run with me through the 1/8, I know it would damn close and you may even win. But after that my car should pull away. As you said above.

About how tall the gears are....2nd in my LT1 ran out at about 55mph, I know the LS1 is gonna be a little different but not that much. When I had my stock gears in my LS1, 1st in my car went right around 55mph with an A4. I don't think an M6 with 3.42's is gonna run 55mph in 1st gear. I'm shifting to 3rd in the 1/8 mile now with my 3.73's.

With my 2.73 geared auto, 1st gear goes to ~55, 2nd goes to 95, and third, well, I haven't gotten that far. It hits 3rd jsut before I trap at 103-105 and is still pulling hard, no hesitation.
BTW I really like the Mach 1 and if it wasn't for the fbods I would hope I would be driving one.;)

I knew that was closer to your gear ratio b/c a friend of mine had a 2.73 gear in his TA and told me it wouldn't shift outta second til around 90'ish mph. Wasn't shifting in the 1/8. He now has 3.23's though.

I told him the first thing id do to his ss would be 4:10s tho.

My g/f just got an '01 Z28 with 3.23's and last time we went to the track she got a better first 1/8 than me but my second 1/8 was faster than hers. She trapped at 102 and I hit 105. Her overall e.t. was better by .02, mainly because of a slightly better 60 ft. From a dig she may take me but from a highway roll I would have the advantage. I think I'll keep my 2.73's.

3.73's are the perfect gear for an A4 LS1. I wanted 4.10's but everyone said I'd run out of gear too soon. I love mine. The only problem I have is hooking up. Spinning at 50mph is a bitch.

Dang this thread is Loooooooooong!!! Oh hush all you the freaking Civic rules..

ORIGINAL: TommyV8

My g/f just got an '01 Z28 with 3.23's and last time we went to the track she got a better first 1/8 than me but my second 1/8 was faster than hers. She trapped at 102 and I hit 105. Her overall e.t. was better by .02, mainly because of a slightly better 60 ft. From a dig she may take me but from a highway roll I would have the advantage. I think I'll keep my 2.73's.


2.73s?? what 02 Camaro came with 2.73s??

The 5 speed MM5 tranny in the V6 had a 3.23 rear end, the 4 speed MX0 in the V6/Z28/SS had a 3.08, and the 6 speed MN6 Z28/SS tranny had 3.42s stock.

The coupe and convertible came with a 3.42 when you ordered it with the Performance Handling Package and the Z28 featured 3.23s with the optional performance axle.

I'm confused now.

ORIGINAL: Stinger

Dang this thread is Loooooooooong!!! Oh hush all you the freaking Civic rules..


Teh Civic c4n n3v4r l00s3!!

ORIGINAL: 2000Si

3.23s with the optional performance axle.



3.23's were the performance gear ratio for an A4. Some got 2.73's, some got 3.23's.

I got a sticker so i know for sure its good for 10 hp.. The easiest stick on power. Wing coming up!!

ORIGINAL: Stinger

I got a sticker so i know for sure its good for 10 hp.. The easiest stick on power. Wing coming up!!

Where'd that come from? [sm=smiley25.gif] This thread is officially hizijacked! Anyway, go for the fart can, that's about 35 rwhp. Mad tyte yo![sm=smiley36.gif]

just because you have not seen a mach 1 put down 300 hp stock dont mean its not possible personally i have not seen a stock ls1 put anywhere close to 320 stock maybe 300 at the most stock unless it a factory freak but the same can be said about the mach 1 and dont get me wrong i am not taking up for the mach 1 cause i have a cobra and i like it better than a mach 1 but dont talk about a factory freak ls1 w/o talking about a factory freak mach 1

Why did you dig this up?

OK. I can set this straight, I think, I ran 3 different Mach's this year at our 1/8th track. The first one I ran had stock 3.55's, cai, pulley, cat-back exh and was a stick shift. I had K&N, lid and hooker cat-back w/ 2.73's. Our r/t's were almost exact and there was barely .002 in our e.t.'s and we ran 3 times in a row. The 2 others I ran just had K&N's and were a mere .2 slower.
I have to admit that the Mach's are badass. I don't know how well they respond to mods, but the guy that had the mods said he was getting ready to drop the bottle on. I never saw him again...hopefully this spring he come down again.
Oh, and our times were 8.71's

ORIGINAL: fast4door
I have to admit that the Mach's are badass.


Hehe Thanks. Think same way about your f-body.:D

ORIGINAL: 1{}D{}{V}{}DGT

nice kill mach 1 i love to hear mustangs beating ls1s doesnt happen often tho


you would know...:D where ya been? not hangin much with the crew anymore...

ORIGINAL: 2000Si


2.73s?? what 02 Camaro came with 2.73s??

I'm confused now.


Look to the left
<--------
2.73:1 (RPO GU2)

Who ever said its up to the driver is right!! If you have a mach1 with no skill there is noway your beating an ls1. But if you know what you are doing and you are on a short track you definitely have a chance...... When you are dealing with seconds all it takes is a little mistake and you are looking at someones new exhaust tips LOL!!!!

local://upfiles/23071/AF0307FEC1CF4770BFCC49395ACC2180.jpg

local://upfiles/23071/8410D31CCD654C28AB1CDB50F2C8B8C7.jpg

So did you and Mr.Peabody use the way back machine to find this thread


http://www.mustangforums.com/upfiles/7038/asppg_Qn385896283.jpg

Hes only 9 months late...freakin noobs

im locking it.