For the millionth time, YOU HAVE SHORTIES ON YOUR CAR FROM THE FACTORY. The only real 'upgrade' from stock is L/T's - otherwise your stock manifolds are more than good enough.
Normally... I find myself nodding in 100% agreement with just about everything you post... But on this comment, I could not disagree more. The stock Manifolds are a damn sight different from short tube headers. The design is alot better for scavenging (tho again, not as optimal as a long tube), and the primaries are individual primaries up to the collector, unlike the manifolds which are basically just ports on a log. You may be thinking of the old 5.0 shorties that were basically a log manifold with a velocity stack on it...
Will you end up with the top end like a long tube header will give you with a set of shorties? no, of course not. Where shorties really shine are down low, in offpeak power and torque gains. I've run time and again against cars with identical mods, except for the long tubes/short tubes difference, and without fail the only time they pull on me is when I am over 5K rpm's, and usually I reel them back in about half the distance I lost between when we shift and hit 5K again.
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"Vera" '07 GT. Manual, 3.55's, Spohn Adj LCA's, Hurst Shifter, GT 500 Rear and chin spoilers, GTA's, Steeda UDP, Roush rear springs, ProFab CAI #6, BBK Shorties
"Dyno's Rarely Lie, but E.T.'s and Trap speed say so much more."
Hell after 6 years if you are like me you will turn this sucker into a drag car and get a truck for DD !!!
At the very least you will probably get the new Mustang coming out in 09, so why worry about emissions??
I have a truck actually, but no, I want to keep this one. To tell you the truth I am tired of having a car payment, so this will be it for me I think. I have blood an sweat(and of course cash) into what I have done so far and plan on more stuff, so getting rid of it, would kill me.
And also(probably get flamed) if I were to get a new car, I would go with the Challenger. I like it, I was trying to wait, but didn't have the patients to wait, and the Mustang is a good looking retro car so I am happy with my purchase.
I think with Hooker and BBK long tube headers you can retain the factory cats (using their modular mid-pipes)
wouldn't that still make you emissions legal in CA ?
In AZ we are good for 5 years till emissions testing so I got the LTs, but just in case I got the catted version of
x-pipe to match, and my tune disables the O2 sensors so no "check engine lights".
To me shorties are not worth it unless you shiny stainless steel !! lol
Also while they , or you, are at it go ahead and change out your motor mounts, don't make the same mistake I did.
they are a real upgrade from the crappy stock mounts , easy mod to do while installing LTs if raising engine.
I didn't realize AZ had to do emmisions at all.. must be for cars registered in Phoenix area? I lived in flagstaff for about 7 years.. never had to do emmisions on my 5 year old + cars.. so there maybe a way around emissions after all.. my dad used to commute from payson to phx everyday.. 1.5 hours a day, but atleast he didn't have to live in phoenix ;) (but also worked out at rosevelt, not in the city)
< Message edited by Mishri -- 2/27/2008 9:54:05 AM >
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2007 Mustang GT Automatic Steeda CAI & Brenspeed Tune 14.6 @ 98MPH (DA of 6395 = 13.3 @ 106mph)
what would be the performance differnce between long tube and shorty headers. Is one better than the other? which company makes a good set. I have already ran a search and nothing came up. thanks
Hey Zellanor,
If you are still reading this thread what I found out with all my various testing and dyno pulls is that on a bone stock car a good set of long tubes with an O/R X-pipe will usually make somewhere between 15-20RWHP and a set of JBA shortys on the stock catted H-pipe will only give you 6-10RWHP. If you consider the complete front part of the exhaust system by combining a set of JBA shortys and a MagnaFlow Tru-X Pipe with OBDII compliant high-flow cats the differences become much smaller and you can stay emissions legal with cats AND O2 sensors in the stock locations. The combination of the JBA shortys and MagnaFlow Tru-X Pipe with the OBDII high-flow cats netted 16RWHP on my car. But the really interesting thing is that as you add other mods to your intake track say a large CAI with a 90mm+ MAF housing, T/B CMCV deltes etc. is that the difference between long tubes and shortys becomes smaller and it never goes back on an N/A car even with cams installed. My 5sp car pulls 316-318RWHP on a Mustang Dyno using SAE correction and smoothing set to 5 which gives you the lowest average readings for a given pull. These numbers are within 2-5RWHP of the other cars dyno'd the same day with a good CAI kit, CMCV deletes and good O/R long tubes. My stock 5sp car with 10,000+ miles on the odometer on this same dyno pulled 260RWHP so it's a very average car as far as '05 5speeds go. So don't think that you have to go with a set of long tubes unless you are really building a maximum effort bolt-on car. The differences are just not that big in the end as the torque and peak power numbes are about the same as are the costs. But the big difference is in emissions issues are where the shorty/Tru-X combo has the hands down advantage over even a catted LT setup.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
The combination of the JBA shortys and MagnaFlow Tru-X Pipe with the OBDII high-flow cats netted 16RWHP on my car.
I would be very interested to see what those mods with the stock manifolds netted to see an accurate number on what specifically the shorties gave. The problem is 99% of the numbers we here about with a specific part are never just that specific part so it's never really 'accurate' what the part gives. What if you made 14 with the same set-up on the stock manifolds - then that would certainly show that the shorties were not worth the money for 2 HP?
For the millionth time, YOU HAVE SHORTIES ON YOUR CAR FROM THE FACTORY. The only real 'upgrade' from stock is L/T's - otherwise your stock manifolds are more than good enough.
Normally... I find myself nodding in 100% agreement with just about everything you post... But on this comment, I could not disagree more. The stock Manifolds are a damn sight different from short tube headers. The design is alot better for scavenging (tho again, not as optimal as a long tube), and the primaries are individual primaries up to the collector, unlike the manifolds which are basically just ports on a log. You may be thinking of the old 5.0 shorties that were basically a log manifold with a velocity stack on it...
Will you end up with the top end like a long tube header will give you with a set of shorties? no, of course not. Where shorties really shine are down low, in offpeak power and torque gains. I've run time and again against cars with identical mods, except for the long tubes/short tubes difference, and without fail the only time they pull on me is when I am over 5K rpm's, and usually I reel them back in about half the distance I lost between when we shift and hit 5K again.
Bob, believe me, I WANT to believe...lol The problem is what I just posted in the post above to F1^^^^
I have yet to see just bone stock shorties to stock manifolds comparisons. I will advocate whatever the results are but no one has ever given that comparison yet to know exactly what gains the shorties have over the stock manifolds. That's my main problem with them. You could very well be correct, I just have not seen it yet personally.
The combination of the JBA shortys and MagnaFlow Tru-X Pipe with the OBDII high-flow cats netted 16RWHP on my car.
I would be very interested to see what those mods with the stock manifolds netted to see an accurate number on what specifically the shorties gave. The problem is 99% of the numbers we here about with a specific part are never just that specific part so it's never really 'accurate' what the part gives. What if you made 14 with the same set-up on the stock manifolds - then that would certainly show that the shorties were not worth the money for 2 HP? CK
Hi modaddict,
CK? is this ChevyKiller?
It might be interesting but it would prove little for the average folks because typically the average folks don't add just the catted X-pipe on stock manifolds. But I did install the JBA shortys first and dyno them which is where I got the first number from. Once I had made a few pulls on the JBA shortys only I installed the MagnaFlow Tru-X Pipe w/OBDII compliant cats and ran it again. I also installed installed a MagnaFlow MagnaPack cat back and the numbers were up again to 18-20RWHP depending on th pull you looked at. I though MagnaFlow's claimed advertised numbers were B.S. and said so but I've been wrong before and I was wrong this time too. Of course that was on a bone stock motor and as usual by the time most people add a CAI kit and tuner they get all pissed off that they didn't get the 30RWHP that the manufacture claimed their product makes.
But as you know all later bolt-on part eat away at the potential power improvement of the next bolt-on part to be added due to the overlaping improvements they each have to contribute. The exceptions seem to be hotter cams/springs and items that reduce parasitic losses like water pumps, drive shafts lighter wheels etc. because they are not upstream of the parts that are limiting power but downstream. It always surprises me how many folks are surprised at how little the very expensive cams they just installed produced on their stock engine only to be very surprised at the bigger than usual gains from a CAI kit and a tune. This is because they did not improve the biggest bottleneck in the intake tract, they only made the problem bigger with cams which only later cold do their job once given an intake tract that was capable of showing what the cams could deliver. So when the engine is opened up with a CAI kit and 90mm + MAF housing, T/B and CMCV delete plates much to their surprise for some reason they got larger gains than other folks did who did not have the cams installed first. They missed the real problem but ultimately if you add all of the intake mods, cams and exhaust you always end up with the same numbers no matter what the indivual increases were along the way due to the order of intallation. What I'm saying is that the gains that people see are highly dependent on the order of installation and is the only reason people think that they got lower numbers out of a particular part.
HTH!
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
ORIGINAL: modaddict Bob, believe me, I WANT to believe...lol The problem is what I just posted in the post above to F1^^^^
I have yet to see just bone stock shorties to stock manifolds comparisons. I will advocate whatever the results are but no one has ever given that comparison yet to know exactly what gains the shorties have over the stock manifolds. That's my main problem with them. You could very well be correct, I just have not seen it yet personally.
Hi modaddict,
What could be more direct? As I posted previously years ago, I installed a set of JBA Ti coated shorty headers on my car and dyno'd it. The results were as posted with only a moderate gain in power. The problem is that folks for some reason want to compare a set of shorty headers bolted up to the stock catted H-pipe directly to a set of long tubes with an O/R or catted X or H-pipe. This is stupid, you need to consider the entire system which is why I later installed and dyno'd a MagnaFlow Tru-X pipe with high-flow OBDII cats. Taken as a system just as any longtube/O/R X-pipe would be this combination produces nearly the same power and torque as a longtube header with an O/R X pipe installed. The proof is in the pudding so to speak.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
I understand what you're saying and agree. The problem I have is the best bang for buck values for the users. Yes, you dynoes the shorties alone and saw minimal results and yes, no one is just going to do them alone, but what I'm interested in is if you would have seen close numbers without them and just the x and high flow cats. If you would have seen say 12 or so HP, then in all fairness, the x pipe and high flow cats would be the best investment and not bother with the shorties.
If you have that data, I'd love to hear it and I'll be on the bandwagon. That's the info I'm looking for.
Yes, this is Chevykiller...
< Message edited by modaddict -- 2/27/2008 3:54:07 PM >
Mind if I chime in? I've run both these combinations: Magnaflow Tru-X pipe with high flow cats with the stock manifolds, and American Racing Headers with they're X pipe. While I did not dyno the car in between installs, my track results were almost Identical with these set ups. With multiple runs, temperatures and 60 ft times being very close, I maybe gained 1/2 mph in the quarter mile with the ARH's. One thing that I really noticed, is the heat soak from the long tubes was unreal! If I hot lapped the car with the long tubes, I would lose 3 mph! I would only lose about .5 to 1 mph with the stock manifolds. Plus, it would take me at least a 1/2 hour (depending on outside temps, sometimes much more) for the motor to cool off enough to get back in the lanes. I think the Magnaflow Tru X pipe is a really underrated, overlooked product.
Great info. That's the kind of data I like to hear. I wish I could get an opinion from on exactly what you did bit the shorties. Perhaps I will.
I really don't know if the midpipe and high flow cats plays more of a role in the numbers people are claiming with the shortie headers. If this is the case, then it would seem that the midpipe and high flow cats are the best investment and forgo headers altogether.
This is what I'm trying to get a handle on. Thanks again for the input.
06 GT Premium 5sp, Shaker 1000, Eibach PRO lowering springs, American Muscle GT4 Black rims, Bassani Catted X-pipe, Bassani Stainless Steel Racing Mufflers, Moser Racing Axles
I think with Hooker and BBK long tube headers you can retain the factory cats (using their modular mid-pipes)
wouldn't that still make you emissions legal in CA ?
In AZ we are good for 5 years till emissions testing so I got the LTs, but just in case I got the catted version of
x-pipe to match, and my tune disables the O2 sensors so no "check engine lights".
To me shorties are not worth it unless you shiny stainless steel !! lol
Also while they , or you, are at it go ahead and change out your motor mounts, don't make the same mistake I did.
they are a real upgrade from the crappy stock mounts , easy mod to do while installing LTs if raising engine.
Unfortunately no, it has to have a CARB certification. And have the certification number handy when smogged. Ours is 6 years, then every 2 years after that. I don't want to take the time to reinstall the factory for the test.
I have the JBA LT's and they have the CARB# stamped right on them.
ORIGINAL: ratnacage I have the JBA LT's and they have the CARB# stamped right on them.
Hi ratinacage,
The CARB plaque that was put on some JBA LT's was placed there in error and is missing some part or all of the important EO#'s that make it exempt. There have been no CARB tested and certified LT headers for the S197GT cars ever and thee cannot be based of that section of the emissions code. There is a state of Califonia web site that lists the EO#'s that have been issued, go look there. If you go an look closely you will see the numbers are missing. If you still think they are legal go and have your car tested at a state emissions test center, if they do a visual inspection as they are required you will be told they are not a legal modification.
HTH!
Oh, here is a place where you can see EVERY EO exemption issued by the CARB EO LINK
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 3/1/2008 10:04:42 AM >
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2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
ORIGINAL: modaddict Great info. That's the kind of data I like to hear. I wish I could get an opinion from on exactly what you did bit the shorties. Perhaps I will.
I really don't know if the midpipe and high flow cats plays more of a role in the numbers people are claiming with the shortie headers. If this is the case, then it would seem that the midpipe and high flow cats are the best investment and forgo headers altogether.
This is what I'm trying to get a handle on. Thanks again for the input.
Hi CK,
You have missed my point. To make valid comparisons you need to compare apples with apples. Comparing a set of good LT's and the matching O/R/catted X/H pipe to a set of good Shortys using a stock down pipe and exhaust without a good O/R/catted X/H pipe will naturally show the shortys at a disadvantage. But if you compare a set of good shortys complete with a good catted X pipe like the MagnaFlow Tru-X Pipe you will se very litle difference in output with the major bolt-ons. I've found that with shortys you make better mid-range torque with a catted downpipe and the same is true for long tubes.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
Posts: 2860
Joined: 4/26/2005 From: Babylon, NY Status: offline
On the side, why are the JBA shortys so much more than the BBK? And why would one get ceramic over bare stainless? Do the one's that are chrome discolor?
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05 GT Vert Auto, Saleen S/C 10psi VMP tune, Roush springs,D-Specs,Steeda LCAs,Swaybar,Panhard bar & brace,Spydershaft,TruTrac,3.73,BBK shortys,Corsa A/B.
On the side, why are the JBA shortys so much more than the BBK? And why would one get ceramic over bare stainless? Do the one's that are chrome discolor?
Hi drbobvs,
All you have to do is look at the BBK's vs the JBA's and you can see the difference in the complexity required to make the JBA headers not to mention the complete weld quality and that JBA's are made of stainless steel. The ceramic coatings are really tremendous at keeping the heat in the exhaust and out of the engine compartment. The difference in under hood temps is very noticable even without a temp gun. The chrome colored JBA headers are also ceramic and they do not discolor like regular chrome. The silver ceramic does get a patina but it stays shiney.
HTH!
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
Printable Version
RE: long tube headers vs. shorty headers - 
