I am looking at purchasing the Compcams Stage 3 camshafts. I know that you need to tune your ECM, is it advisable to run bigger injectors as well?and what size? Also what is a good set of heads to complament these cams?
Upgrading your injectors is not needed unless you pass 400HP, which is extremely unlikely.
You will need the cams themselves, valve springs, retainers, and the tune. Also, understand the labor for cams is about 12-15 hours! It will be more than $1000 just for the labor.
As for cams AND heads, I do not think that is a good idea. Those two mods don't stack very well becasue they both address the same area: airflow through the ports in the heads. In other words, if cams are 40 HP and heads are 50 HP (hyothetical numbers), they don't add up to 90 HP. More like 60. And that's assuming you already have all your other supporting mods in order.
That being said, the cams are the more cost effective of the two mods. They are a lot less expensive, and there is less labor involved. If you were going to do both, you could easily buy a supercharger for the same money. Doing cams and heads is going to cost $3500 or more in parts, and easily $1500 in labor.
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Black 2006 GT Coupe Dynatech LT headers & X; Borla catback C&L CAI; 93 oct tune Full BMR, Spohn & Steeda suspension D-Specs; Alum driveshaft Second Skin Audio damping; Infinity spkrs; Goodyear Eagle F1 255F/295R - FR500 wheels
CrazyAl took the words out of my mouth, I think it would be a waste of money to do heads and cams as well. If you are going that route regardless make sure you do them at the same time to save money/time on labor.
If you don't have headers yet I highly recommend you get that finished off first before adding the cams. I did the cams first and was disappointed until I added the headers which really made me happy and opened up those headers BIG time.
Upgrading your injectors is not needed unless you pass 400HP, which is extremely unlikely.
You will need the cams themselves, valve springs, retainers, and the tune. Also, understand the labor for cams is about 12-15 hours! It will be more than $1000 just for the labor.
As for cams AND heads, I do not think that is a good idea. Those two mods don't stack very well becasue they both address the same area: airflow through the ports in the heads. In other words, if cams are 40 HP and heads are 50 HP (hyothetical numbers), they don't add up to 90 HP. More like 60. And that's assuming you already have all your other supporting mods in order.
That being said, the cams are the more cost effective of the two mods. They are a lot less expensive, and there is less labor involved. If you were going to do both, you could easily buy a supercharger for the same money. Doing cams and heads is going to cost $3500 or more in parts, and easily $1500 in labor.
I still Disagree on the Heads and Cams issue. It all depends on the flow numbers of your heads and the rest of your setup. While the stock intake manifold will be a limiting factor until we get aftermarket units, I still say that a properly matched cam to a High flow head is going to net you better gains then with the stock cam.
I doubt the stock cam is aggressive enough to give you the lift you would need for a head that flows well on the top end. Plus the stock springs I would replace no matter what. They will not survive high RPMS and don't have enough seat pressure. Would you want to risk your engine getting valve float.. So add new springs to the total.. Cams now are just a $600 upgrade. Why would you not do them. It will cost nothing install wise. Might as well go for it.
And me personally when you reach the 375+ RWHP range on our cars would consider upping the injector (you can find them cheap from teh S/C guys that have jumped to the 42+lbs ones) as you will not have to push them so hard. No reason to run the injectors close to 100% duty cycle and bumping the pressure when a higher flow is a cheap upgrade.
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07 Vista Blue GT/CS Black/Dove 5 speed manual C&L Racer,VMPTuning, Zoomers A/B,CMCV DP's,UDP,ARH LTs & O/R Xpipe, BMR, KW
Have a chat with some of the guys who have done the engine building and run the dynos: JDM, Livernois, Fox Lake, etc. All of them will report that if you're doing heads adding the cams is a minor upgrade (if that) at that point. One of my local Mustang buddies (I did his suspension work) is buying a forged motor from JDM. His plan is to put a blower on it a a couple of years down the road, but right now he wants to run N/A. JDM told him that they ONLY use the stock cams with their heads becasue there is no noticeable HP advantage to use aftermarket cams. He was ready to buy everything from them, and they actually talked him out of spending the extra money for the cams.
The issue is that a good set of ported heads flows so well (even with the stock cams), that cylinder filling is a non-issue on the 4.6 motor. There's just no need for the extra flow. Now then, if you use a cheaper set of heads that dones't have the oversized valves or if you have a motor that's stroked or bored so you have more displacement, then the cams + heads might be a better deal, but I don't have any experience with that particular combination.
I agree that if you were already doing heads you could add the aftermarket cams for a modest (relatively) cost. But I would argue that unless you had big plans for the motor later on, that is not a particularly wise plan. Doing just cams on your stock heads will give you 80% of the HP gain of the heads for a lot less money.
For example, we know you can do heads, cams, and springs installed for about $2000. That's worth about 35-40 HP given that you already have the supporting mods--which you'd better have for the heads too. If we assume max HP, that's $2000 for 40 HP, or $50 per HP.
Now in the case of Heads, the various mag reviews are putting the gain at about 40-50 HP for the heads with the oversize valves. These cost about $2500-3000 depending on where you get them from. Even if you stick with the stock valvetrain parts (Cams & springs), you're still looking at another $300 or so for gaskets, head bolts (they are TTY), and other misc. parts. Then, your install is going to be $1500 or more. That's putting us about $4500 (or more) for 50 HP...or $90 per HP.
If you do both, your labor cost will be essentially the same as doing just the heads, but you're throwing on an extra $1000 or so for the cams and the valvesprings. JDM and Livernois both claim no gain with heads and cams but if we assume they're wrong and figure you get an extra 15 HP, then you're still looking at $5500 for 65 HP...or $84 per HP
You see why I'm suggesting either cams only or forget the whole deal? By the time you're looking at both cams and heads you are in supercharger territory! In that case for a similar amount of money you could have a lot more HP potential.
Personally, I think the cams are a worthwhile deal. If you do your own labor the deal becomes even better! The only reason why I haven't done them yet is becasue I will be going the supercharger route later this year. Agressive cams like the Stage 3s do not work well with FI.
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Black 2006 GT Coupe Dynatech LT headers & X; Borla catback C&L CAI; 93 oct tune Full BMR, Spohn & Steeda suspension D-Specs; Alum driveshaft Second Skin Audio damping; Infinity spkrs; Goodyear Eagle F1 255F/295R - FR500 wheels
I disagree with everything you are saying . The s/c guys need the bigger injectors because of the huge amount of air they are moving. Injector size is not exactly related to horsepower rating. A n/a motor making 400hp will not require the same injectors as one that is s/c making the same power.
As for the cams they are NOT a $600 upgrade. There are residual costs, and it takes a lot of experience for someone to do them in their garage. It's not the same as changing a cam in a pushrod motor. A novice can very easily F up changing them on a mod motor.
You yourself even just told this guy to get injectors and valve springs. What about a tune? I don't suppose he has a dyno in his garage. Cams a re a major undertaking, and certainly not a $600 one.
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06' GT - NASA SoCal #82 TTB
Thanks to Wild Pony Motorsports, Ross Murray, and KW Suspension
3rd place (x2) - California Speedway 3/08 1st place - Buttonwillow Raceway 4/08
I disagree with everything you are saying . The s/c guys need the bigger injectors because of the huge amount of air they are moving. Injector size is not exactly related to horsepower rating. A n/a motor making 400hp will not require the same injectors as one that is s/c making the same power.
As for the cams they are NOT a $600 upgrade. There are residual costs, and it takes a lot of experience for someone to do them in their garage. It's not the same as changing a cam in a pushrod motor. A novice can very easily F up changing them on a mod motor.
You yourself even just told this guy to get injectors and valve springs. What about a tune? I don't suppose he has a dyno in his garage. Cams a re a major undertaking, and certainly not a $600 one.
VSOPs post confused me for a sec too, but then I got the gist of it. VSOP is saying that if you are already doing the heads THEN cams are only $600 more. Of course, starting from scratch a cam swap is much more expensive than $600.
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Black 2006 GT Coupe Dynatech LT headers & X; Borla catback C&L CAI; 93 oct tune Full BMR, Spohn & Steeda suspension D-Specs; Alum driveshaft Second Skin Audio damping; Infinity spkrs; Goodyear Eagle F1 255F/295R - FR500 wheels
I agree with the just do cams suggestion if you are not planning for anything major down the road. But I'm a firm believer in that if you are doing the heads DO cams as I can assure you that you can get gains if you have a good tuner and matched set of cams (long as you get cams for what you are going to be doing with the engine) over just the heads. I know the heads are going to cost me a HUGE amount of money as I will be going for the race heads with Larger valves and high lift springs. the cam cost is minor compared to what the heads will cost. But for me I will be doing the heads just to see where I can get this motor N/A and then will be putting them on a lareger cubic inch built engine with a TT setup down the road.
I think why JDm/Livernois say cams are pointless right now is that the stock intake manifold can not flow high enough numbers at High RPM. I'm hoping the FAST one will help with this, yet the comments that some have posted on what fast reps said are scary (but its second hand and hear say right now).
Either way I still say get the cams if you are going to get a serious set of heads
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07 Vista Blue GT/CS Black/Dove 5 speed manual C&L Racer,VMPTuning, Zoomers A/B,CMCV DP's,UDP,ARH LTs & O/R Xpipe, BMR, KW
I disagree with everything you are saying . The s/c guys need the bigger injectors because of the huge amount of air they are moving. Injector size is not exactly related to horsepower rating. A n/a motor making 400hp will not require the same injectors as one that is s/c making the same power.
As for the cams they are NOT a $600 upgrade. There are residual costs, and it takes a lot of experience for someone to do them in their garage. It's not the same as changing a cam in a pushrod motor. A novice can very easily F up changing them on a mod motor.
You yourself even just told this guy to get injectors and valve springs. What about a tune? I don't suppose he has a dyno in his garage. Cams a re a major undertaking, and certainly not a $600 one.
VSOPs post confused me for a sec too, but then I got the gist of it. VSOP is saying that if you are already doing the heads THEN cams are only $600 more. Of course, starting from scratch a cam swap is much more expensive than $600.
YEP..
Oh and on the fuel issue.. I thik it was the BBR one where they claimed to hit 400rwhp that they did run the fuel injectors to the limits. Which is one reason why I would spend the ~$150 and bump up injector size.
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07 Vista Blue GT/CS Black/Dove 5 speed manual C&L Racer,VMPTuning, Zoomers A/B,CMCV DP's,UDP,ARH LTs & O/R Xpipe, BMR, KW
Oh and on the fuel issue.. I thik it was the BBR one where they claimed to hit 400rwhp that they did run the fuel injectors to the limits. Which is one reason why I would spend the ~$150 and bump up injector size.
Yes, that's right, it was BBR. And in that case getting the bigger injectors is a darn good idea. Then again, knowing BBR's reputation for exaggerating HP gains and refusing indipendant testing, I am not holding my breath! I want to see this duplicated by someone else before I belive it. However, it's good to know that people are working on it, even if it may not be cost effective (depending on your definition of cost effective, of course).
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Black 2006 GT Coupe Dynatech LT headers & X; Borla catback C&L CAI; 93 oct tune Full BMR, Spohn & Steeda suspension D-Specs; Alum driveshaft Second Skin Audio damping; Infinity spkrs; Goodyear Eagle F1 255F/295R - FR500 wheels
Let's say that I am putting a forged rotating assembly in my motor, and in the near future about a bar of boost via a KB. Would head be a worthwhile upgrade to put in at the same time as the forged rods/pistons? I have all supporting mods. My goal is a *safe* 550rwhp/550rwtq.
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Heads and cams have nothing to do with "safe". If you have a forged rotating assembly you can easily hit 550 RWHP with a Kenne Bell on stock cams and stock heads. And actually, if you are planning on a blower, then Stage 3 cams are right out.
The KB+Forged internals will get you the 550 no problem. I would then be concerned about breaking things downstream: Transmission, clutch, differential, and so on. You also need some good suspension to put that kind of power to the ground.
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Black 2006 GT Coupe Dynatech LT headers & X; Borla catback C&L CAI; 93 oct tune Full BMR, Spohn & Steeda suspension D-Specs; Alum driveshaft Second Skin Audio damping; Infinity spkrs; Goodyear Eagle F1 255F/295R - FR500 wheels
To me the best bang for the buck is still to either just do the intake and tune and stop there. Or throw on a good supercharger kit (like the complete whipple kit or JDM saleen) and be happy with a safe 425-450 RWHP on an otherwise entirly stock car.
Other than those two options, the cost per HP and labor involved just gets insane by my standards. But I am a bit more reserved when it comes to new cars. To me, while tearing apart and rebuilding a worn out 60's musclecar engine doesen't even phase me. The thought of tearing into and modifying the internals of a new 30K dollar car that is running great just doesn't sit right with me financially and time wise. But my stang is a daily driver, not a toy really. So idk.
Cams, headers, heads, etc all can make a nice package with an intake and tune if done right. And I am still not sure you break 400rwhp with them. Easy and cheap are not words that describe them at all.
Right now my brain is bimodal with this whole thing. Either stay at 300rwhp with the intake and tune and other small easy stuff. Or spend the 6K or so and be in the low-mid 400rwhp range.
I agree with you classj, at least from a financial perspective.
If I was paying for labor (beyond all the really simple things), then I would decide to do one of two things too: either simple bolts ons only, or SC. If I was going the bolt-on route, I'd stick with the CAI, Tune, UDP, and CMCP delete and leave it at that. Those are all simple enough that anyone can do them or if you are paying for the labor it will be cheap.
The only reason why I have done longtubes and why I have been considering a lot more serious engine mods is becasue I do the labor myself, which totally changes the cost of those mods.
I don't think that chasing cams/headers/heads and so on in search of big NA power is worthwhile. If you are looking to spend that kind of money, just buy a SC and keep the boost levels nice and sane.
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Black 2006 GT Coupe Dynatech LT headers & X; Borla catback C&L CAI; 93 oct tune Full BMR, Spohn & Steeda suspension D-Specs; Alum driveshaft Second Skin Audio damping; Infinity spkrs; Goodyear Eagle F1 255F/295R - FR500 wheels
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