ZZ, I know you're upset for my BS comment in my first post in this thread.
Yes, I said that, and in hindsight I shouldn't have. That is why I apologized in a later post. However, in my VERY FIRST POST I not only stated my opinion on the matter, but I also explained why I belived the first post to be wrong--in detail. I then cited evidence from an established expert in the industry (Wilwood) AND further referances in peer-reviewed literature that are written and scrutinized by professional engineers. The Stoptech and Baer information that was posted later in the thread also supports my claim.
For the record I have a mechanical engineering degree. I am an engineer by trade, and I have been wrenching for years. I even studied brake systems when I was in graduate school. I think I am more qualified to comment on this subject than a no-name Chinese company that is trying to sell people something.
Just becasue people buy "stock type" slotted rotors doesn't make them work. As I went over before, there are literally millions of people who buy "penis enlargement pills" or "breast enlargement tablets" every year. Just becasue these products sell that doesn't make them work. How about snake oil? Magic healing crystals? Ozone air purifiers? Those "tornado" air intake products? Or putting huge wings on Hondas "for traction" One million ricers can't be wrong....
You have stated "your opinion" which as I mentioned before, is literally cut-and-pasted from the advertisement of a Chinese brake rotor dealer on Ebay. In academia that is called plagarism. You then offer no further evidence or argument to back it up. The reason why my opinion is "worth more" is simply becasue I have explained the facts and cited both industry and academic support, whereas you have offered nothing in support of your claim.
As I have explained in a later post in this thread, NOWHERE I am claiming that all slotted/drilled rotors are worse than solid rotors as an all-encompassing rule. My point has simply been that the statments made in the OP post are factually wrong. If you want a slotted/drilled rotor and you want it to be at least as effective as a solid rotor, then it must be made larger to compensate for the material lost by the drilling--such as the Brembo, Baer, and similar 'big brake' kits. Those products are excellent. But the products depicted in the OP's post are no better than OEM. A drilled rotor will have similar or worse performance than a solid rotor of the same size.
Sleeper, that was terribly funny. Thanks for starting my day with a laugh. I hear that someone is secretly working on a high-tech "kart" style band-brake kit for these cars.....
< Message edited by CrazyAl -- 1/15/2007 8:56:05 AM >
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Here’s the deal indeed. I started the thread to have discussions on the subject, Crazyal starts out his post with, my post is BS, Yea that’s a discussion starter. and you say I'm pissing on the posts of someone who is actually trying to enlighten the masses. That’s a clue to your judgment. And then you know somehow of my experience "You're a less experienced poster" Just how would you come to that conclusion? I have a brake specialist certification hanging on the wall . I don't think Slotted and drilled rotors are all that important on a street vehicle but if someone else said they thought they were , I wouldn't say there post is BS, but that’s me. And somehow you have the balls to say to me that I'm a "self-righteous prick" while hiding behind a computer screen, That takes guts bud. The 1,000s of engineers that work in the Brake industry and support there findings with facts mean nothing, Crazyals opinion and his facts mean everything, there's some real brain power going on there. I came to this site to discuss subjects about cars, not to argue with idiots, just because its a cut-n-paste don't mean it can't be discussed. Even Crazyals points were made with reference to other places but somehow that’s ok? you can't have a discussion with someone on a subject without calling them names, well that’s fine you self-righteous prick, That sure has a lot to do with the subject.
Crazyal The first couple of post set this off in the wrong direction with me and you so lets just stop. I started the thread to disscuss slotted rotor. I don't think they are good, it was a cut-n-paste to have a disscussion, you can discuss Cut-n-paste, it's alright. Kinda like a cut and paste on comaros, That don't mean I wrote it or like them, just a subject to discuss.
Wow, I can't believe I just read ALL the way through this thread in 1 sitting. Actually I did get up once . I sure learned a lot thank you guys for the material and the knowledge shared. When you know very little about brakes, it is easy to listen to the manufacturers and buy into their hype. If you buy into everything these advertisers say, I could forward you some junk email to increase your member by up to 3" .
ZZmustang, thanks for starting the thread. It was a good discussion that will prove valuable for anyone that really wants to understand the value of these different rotors without having to get the information from the people that are selling something. I think you are taking CrazyAl's first comment there too personal. He said the post was BS, not that he thinks you are full of it. Unless you really did believe that stuff in that cut-and-paste and you were putting it up as you were sharing factual information rather than posting for discussion. If you really believed that stuff, consider CrazyAl's first comment there as a friendly slap to bring you back to your senses (I mean that in the best possible way). -Joe
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Joe No problem, And as I stated a few times on this thread, I don't believe in slotted/drilled rotors for the street, However that was just my opinion and that’s the reason I started the thread, for discussion. Some people have to resort to name calling or calling the post BS in order to make them feel good , I guess. It makes no difference if someone’s post is a cut-n-paste or not, calling it BS is not the way to discuss. Example "The bible says" and the response to that would be that book is BS. There’s no discussion there, You get what I mean?
From what Ive been told by road racer enthusiasts, (WGI &Lime Rock regulars):
Slotted: For outgassing. Today's pads much better now, outgassing is almost eliminated, no need for slots
Drilled: Really for looks only. Used to be to save weight, not needed anymore, and actually compromises the integrity of the rotor. Easy to replace with a sponsored budget. Most people not at liberty to go through rotors like Dixie cups.
Jim GT Thanks. Thats the way to have a discussion, Talk about it, give some facts, give your opinion and thats it, No name calling no post bashing. You Da Man Jim
For the record I have a mechanical engineering degree. I am an engineer by trade, and I have been wrenching for years. I even studied brake systems when I was in graduate school. I think I am more qualified to comment on this subject than a no-name Chinese company that is trying to sell people something.
I have to side with CrazyAl here. His take on alot of this stuff is usually spot on. This reminds me of the great exhaust backpressure debate. I am an engineer myself by trade with a grad degree. I work in the electrical and mechanical fields. I am no brake system designer, but I know where he is coming from with this stuff. It is a bit disturbing when people and companies make bogus claims based on backwards engineering. the truth is out there. You just have to blow throw the BS to find it sometimes and back it with a bit of theory and testing.
To get to the point. As mentioned above, cross drilling and slotting were only invented to dissapate gasses and save weight. We have set up and ran many a car for track use at Lime rock, The Glen, and Pocono. With modern pads. Usually, the only thing improper (and sometimes proper) cross drilling gets you is cracked rotors. Slotting usually fares about the same. Brake rotors need to accomplish two things. Have a high heat capacity to pull the heat away from the pads, and have a high ability to dissipate that heat.
Less surface area contact between the pads and the rotor is never a good thing. It is my personal belief that manufacturers such as Porsche still cross drill for appearance and weight savings and nothing more.
Now, if someone made the claim that drilling and slotting helped performance after the pads got wet. I would buy that. But it is not really a common thing to worry about.
The only good part about Zinc washed rotors are that the hubs and fins turn white as they corrode for a while as the sacrificial coating gets consumed before they get rusty.
What I believe does work are a couple things. I have had luck with in the past cold treating rotors cryogenically. A BMW 5 series that a customer had back in the early 90's was warping rotors constantly. Aftermarket rotors (including drilled!!) proved to be far worse than factory versions. Finally, we bought a brand new set of factory rotors from BMW, and sent them out for cryo treatment. It went from warping rotors every 4 months or so to getting 2 years out of the frozen ones!!
Also, replacing composite (steel/cast) rotors with all cast wagner units works well in some applications to prevent warping.
If everyone believed all the claims that aftermarket companies made, we all would believe we were driving cars that had the abilities of a Ferrari.
Personally, after building and restoring alot of cars both for myself and professionally at a family shop. I believe that most aftermarket parts are garbage at best and usually create more problems than they solve. Usually, if 5% of the engineering time that went into the original part goes into the development of the aftermarket piece, you are lucky.
This is not to say that I don't have some aftermarket parts on my car. But I am not so quick to open a catalog and replace everything on my car because some marketing guru that could not engineer his way out of a paper bag claims it is better.
I also appreciate this thread. I like the looks of the slotted & drilled rotors and was wondering if they were better than the original solid rotors that came on our cars. Thanks for the education.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oakman
I also appreciate this thread. [snip] Thanks for the education.
That's the reason I didn't lock/delete this thread. An open, respectful discussion in encouraged, but please refrain from making personal attacks. Now carry on about your business...
Bill Jr. 28HopUp
< Message edited by 28HopUp -- 1/15/2007 5:22:38 PM >
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As with any discussion, it should be open and even engaging, Just not insulting. Lets see, what other subject is in need of discussion? And Bill, that was perceptive of you. Hears a thought, At the first sign of a thread being talked about in a negative way, (like , Oh, "Actually, this post is one of the biggest piles of BS that I have ever seen! " ) Maybe it would be a good thing to step in and advise the person that said this to , Oh, maybe NOT say that? Just a thought. But then it wouldn't get exciting now would it?
< Message edited by ZZmustang -- 1/15/2007 5:24:32 PM >
ZZ, you've made your point. Wasn't it you that suggested above that we drop this whole issue and revert to the discussion at hand: brake rotors? You've mentioned more than once that you want to see actual discussion, not just unsourced statements and irrelevant posts. Well, why don't you contribute something to this thread? You said that you don't want to see "offensive comments", but you are repeating them more than anyone else in this thread.
While we're on the subject of rotors and so forth, I'll weigh in with a method that may be used to remove pad material transfer from rotors: A few companies manufacture flat (as opposed to cylindrical) flex-hones. These are used for resurfacing glazed rotors. Of course, this is not as good as a solution has having the rotors Blanchard ground, but it might suffice in a pinch:
77, this could be a fix for you, though I would still try to figure out the cause. If you have a dial indicator you can easily measure the runout of the rotors and see if they are actually warped or if the problem is indeed pad-material transfer.
< Message edited by CrazyAl -- 1/15/2007 5:28:42 PM >
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Crazyal There you go telling me what I say when that is NOT what I said. You said I said. "You've mentioned more than once that you want to see actual discussion, not just unsourced statements and irrelevant posts." I did say I would like to see discussions, I said nothing about "Actual" .And, A discussion, kind of has to be Actual. and then I did NOT say any thing about "unsourced statements and irrelevant posts" That’s your "MADE UP stuff, By the way, unsourced, is not a word. And then you said " You said that you don't want to see "offensive comments", but you are repeating them more than anyone else in this thread. " there’s a reason, It's because I'm talking to different people when I say that, I still don't want to see offensive comments. You have comments that are directed to the subject, then they are welcome, but with a grain of salt, for me that is. Your opinion, to some, is written in stone, I just don't see it that way. everyone has there opinion on any subject , even instine would argue his points because people would not just take what he said as fact. I think you should, make your point, Cut-n-paste or in the above case copy a web site. and discuss. It's not really a difficult thing not to use offensive comments. But Then??????
ps. I don't respond to myself, so if people don't want this thread to continue all the have to do is not respond to the thread and it will stop. But if people do post a reply, even though you may not like it, I will tell them thank You and listen to ther comments.
< Message edited by ZZmustang -- 1/15/2007 8:01:58 PM >
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Wow, this got a little out of hand. Thanks for the info on brake rotors Al. I've been thinking of going to a big brake package up front and I was thinking of getting cross drilled just for the weight reduction to compensate for the larger rotors. I had heard that cross drilled rotors can crack, but I didn't know that they don't actually provide superior cooling. Thanks for that info as it helped me make my mind up to stay away from them. What would be your preference for a big brake package that isn't cross drilled?
To me, the stock brakes were not bad enough to warrant replacment for the street. I could not justify 1200-1500 bucks for brakes plus the wheels/spacers to clear them when the car stops pretty good as is with stock pads. With aftermarket pads I am sure a bit better. I also am not a big aftermarket brake fan. I like all the service parts on my car to be OE. I keep my cars a while usually, I don't want to have to be scouring the earth for rotors and calipers after a few years when support for the aftermarket stuff stops.
But, when the 700 dollar GT500 brake deal came up I jumped on it mostly for appearances and the improved pedal feel of a fixed caliper. I have not gotten around to installing it yet. But it looks nice. If I can use spacers and make them work, I will install them this spring. If not, I am going to stay stock and throw on pads.
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OK. I took the time to read the ENTIRE thread, and I'd like to thank CrazyAl for spending the time to type all of those detailed responses (there must be over an hour of typing time). I learned a few things.
To ZZmustang - LET IT GO!!! CrazyAl apologized for getting your shorts in a twist. Please feel free to add to the discussion, but keep it on-topic (which is ironic since you are the original poster).
I don't expect anyone to value my opinion any more than anyone else's. Opinions are just that--everyone has one, and an opinion by itself is meaningless. If I post a question or read a thread for research purposes and I see someone reply "I like Brand X" or "Brand X Sucks", I don't give it any weight at all. Why should I care what someone else thinks? On the other hand, if they explain their statements and relate the hows and whys behind their opinon--and back it up with some facts--then the information starts to become credible and therefore useful. I have learned a great deal from other people's experiences and the information that they share in this manner.
This is why I post facts to back up my statements and explain those facts: I don't expect anyone to give my opinions any weight unless there are facts involved. I am providing well-regarded, peer reviewed, documentation that everyone can consult for further information as well as more facts regarding the subject. The authors of these books and papers on brakes have a lot more experience than I. All of us (myself included) can learn form what they have to say. I try not to post opinions by themselves becasue frankly that is just a waste of everyone's time--including mine.
06Hoss:
You need to consider what your demands are. Yes, a cross-drilled rotor is less durable than a solid rotor of the same size. However, all the "big brake kits" for our cars are more than tough enough to handle the abuse you'd throw at them--drilled or not! My first pick would probably be Stoptech, given their pricing is better than most other brands and they have fully rebuildable kits that are designed for street and track use. I am fond of Wilwood brakes too, however you have to be a bit more careful with them: Many of the Wilwood calipers are made for racing use (not street), and so they don't have dust boots on the pistons. This means you have to rebuild the calipers more often. You could use Wilwood brakes on the street, but you would have to be vigilant with inspecting the pistons and the caliper bodies for wear. Brembo is excellent. My only complaint with Brembo is their prices are the highest of all the big-brake companies. I would not hesitate to run drilled rotors from any of the companies I just mentioned. Becasue they are larger than stock they can handle the heat without worry of cracking. Wilwood and Stoptech both offer solid discs if you decide you would prefer them. I have very little personal experience with Baer, so you'll have to research them on your own.
Another option like classj said is to consider the GT500 kit. It is a lot less expensive than any of the above options. However, the GT500 kit does require spacers for most installs whereas the other big brake kits do not. The Wheel Industry Coucil specifically recommends against using wheel spacers. However, many people use them anyway. It's up to you of course, but the industry generally regards wheel spacers as a safety risk.
< Message edited by CrazyAl -- 1/15/2007 10:35:01 PM >
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Agreed. If I run spacers it will not be a light hearted decision. That is why the GT500 kit may be sold one day if I am not comfortable with the spacers or if the car just doesn't look right with them. But for now, I am hanging on to it. I mainly bought it because is was cheap, now it is close to 1200-1400 I believe.
As far as the spacers. The only two things that gives me some assurance are that.1) The ones I am trying out are TUV approved and manufactured under ISO. It is not easy to get a part to pass under the TUV, usually much harder than the DOT I have heard. Also, I have spoken to guys who vintage race BMW's and Porsches. They run 1"+ spacers and beat the crap out of their cars for hours on the track. Porsche used H&R spacers as original equiptment on some of the wide-body 911's years ago.
But with that said, if they do not meet my specs, I am not using them.
Best I can measure, the brembo kit that is sold through brembo requires the same clearance. I am not sure about the stoptech or Baer kit. But if I were you, I would try to get a fixed 4 piston caliper if you can, that is my preference, but it is more of a pedal feel thing.
Wilwoods usually have no dust boots like Al said. In general, street rod guys use them that do not run their cars year round and in the winter snow and salt. I spoke to Wilwood about their calipers for my mopar, their opionion was that for summer cruising with limited mileage they would be fine, but in no way are daily driver type of brakes.
Printable Version
RE: Slotted and drilled Rotors - 
. I sure learned a lot thank you guys for the material and the knowledge shared. When you know very little about brakes, it is easy to listen to the manufacturers and buy into their hype. If you buy into everything these advertisers say, I could forward you some junk email to increase your member by up to 3" 
. 
(I mean that in the best possible way). -Joe
