Team MF Member #007 Posts: 9822
Joined: 1/5/2004 From: My moms uterus Status: offline
Cost of living and wages are different for everyone. The average house here is now almost $400,000. I'm not knocking that $600 is a tall car note. But like I said. It's all realitive to where you live. If you live in an area where your house cost you $120,000, for 3-4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths. It would make sense that the average wage for a middle class family would look something like $40,000. Make sense? Obviously a $600 car payment is probably too much to blow out of your $40,000 income.
< Message edited by Sidewayz6.0 -- 9/13/2006 10:51:32 AM >
Posts: 295
Joined: 2/11/2005 From: West Virginia Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Sidewayz6.0
Cost of living and wages are different for everyone. The average house here is now almost $400,000. I'm not knocking that $600 is a tall car note. But like I said. It's all realitive to where you live. If you live in an area where your house cost you $120,000, for 3-4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths. It would make sense that the average wage for a middle class family would look something like $40,000. Make sense? Obviously a $600 car payment is probably too much to blow out of your $40,000 income.
US$ median household income is $47k per year (half the households in the US make more, half make less) source Census Bureau
With the 5yr/100k mile warranty offered by GM, i think a base C6 Vette is in my future; to me a 400hp factory stock car with warranty for 5 yrs is too attractive to pass on.
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================================= '05 Sonic Blue Mustang GT 5 spd Manual Go Mods: C&L CAI/SCT X2 w/kauffman motorsports custom tune Show Mods: tint/stripes/Steeda Ultralights/MAC axle backs 286rwhp/302rwtq =================================
My brother leases his 2005 C6. It's some sort of lease that builds equity in the car and he bumped the yearly mileage to 20k. It is his 2nd car and did not have one to trade in. His payment through GMAC is $980 and change. How many people here can afford that for a part time car? Raise your hand.
If I were single, I'd be driving a Ford GT. But I am not. I'm married with 2 kids, age 11 and 10. They cost money. They need braces, eat a plenty of food ($250/wk is my average food bill). They go through clothes like water. I have their college to think about. I opted for a $500 monthly payment for my STI instead and my household income is quadruple the mean.
Cost of living and wages are different for everyone. The average house here is now almost $400,000. I'm not knocking that $600 is a tall car note. But like I said. It's all realitive to where you live. If you live in an area where your house cost you $120,000, for 3-4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths. It would make sense that the average wage for a middle class family would look something like $40,000. Make sense? Obviously a $600 car payment is probably too much to blow out of your $40,000 income.
The average price for a house around where I live, Fort Lauderdale, is around $400,000 but that in no way means the average family or person can afford one. It's the reason most of my friends moved or are moving out of South Florida. To get a sense of what car is expensive and what car is not it would help to know the average new car price. I checked Edmunds and the FTC and they listed the average around $27,000 or $28,000. While some people are able to swing a $600/month car payment you would need to know what that person's expenses are. Are they married, have kids, have a roomate helping with rent/mortgage, are they saving any money? There are so many variables that no answer to that $34,000 question is right or wrong.
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Steeda Intake, MagnaFlow CatBack Exhaust, X-Pipe/No Cats, Diablo PCM, 2.8" Pulley, Lots Of Kenny Brown Suspension & Chassis Goodies
"I'm slow because I'm a short bus riding window licker."
I am a Ford fan through and through, but I also call 'em as I see 'em. Over the last month I have seen several gt500's go down the 1/4 mile, and recently saw one being autox'd. If I was Ford i'd be g'danmd embarassed. Several people I have talked to about their recent gt500 purchases are upset. Most all say they expected more car. (I hardly feel sorry for the poor bastards that paid 10k+ over sticker for an early one) Most I see at the track can barely break into the 12's (if that). Lets go back to the 04 cobra vs. 06 gt500 comparison for a sec. For about half as much $, Ford was able to produce a car that performed at a very similar level to the gt500. The only corner Ford cut on the terminator was going with a roots Eaton and not a screw. Several corners have been cut in the gt500, and it still is very pricey for what you get. To me, the terminator was a MUCH BETTER value. Yeah, maybe if you put a gt 500 in a time capsule and open it in 30 years, it might be a good value. In the gt500, Ford produced a marginally performing car for a pretty big price tag. A C6 vette is about the same price as a gt500, and the vette beats it in every category. (BTW, IMO, the C6 vette is possibly the best performance value in the world) Was Ford even attempting to compete with GM? I doubt it; I don't think they cared about anything more thhan making a few bucks. If they did care about this car's performance, they would have done a screw blower and an aluminum block. But those got scrapped because of cost, which backs up my logic. I don't see much aftermarket following with the gt5000 compared to the terminator. Who wants a 4000 lb project drag car (or autox, for that matter). I think that this car will fizzle away pretty fast. My point is that the terminator will live on at the strip and the autox, but the gt500 will not. And that hurts Ford. The gt500 was created for 1 reason and 1 reason only; to make $, exploiting the Shelby name. That's the bottom line.
So you think Ford should have completely developed a brand new engine for this car? Yet, you think it's still too exspensive?
YES, I actually expect that ford throws a little money and engineering into a car they are selling as a competitive product in todays world where cars are supposed to handle.
I didnt say it was too expensive at 45K dollars, at that price it is a good value and I might have one. But not at 60K. And that is how much they cost to buy if ford is only planning on making 9K units a year. What I said was that ford should have developed a somewhat new motor built off of the mod arcitecture, all aluminum, 400-427ci. Raised the price of the car to 50K dollars, eliminated dealer markups, and made them availible to the public at possible quantities of 15-20K units a year. So if you are selling 20K cars a year with that engine x 4 years, the 5K dollars extra they raised the price all of a sudden is 400,000,000 dollars. That is more than enough to build a new motor. Build something else (GT supercar successor) with the motor and costs drop further. That isnt even including crate engine sales, and only assuming a 4 year lifespan which is very short.
If ford built a gt500 that weighed only a little more than a GT, had 500hp, and had suspension mods to pull 1G (which can be done on a std GT), and on the market, availible for 50K dollars with 4 seats. They would be pulling sales from corvette, and BMW to some extent. AND instead of guys supercharging their gt's they might be trading up for the gt500.
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Cars still have to get more than 10 miles per gallon. Sure, perhaps Ford could have dug around in the magic toy box and played with a 351 or something, but it's not what they've been doing.----EDIT: i might have misunderstood,, you say it still should have been modular? or they should have made it pushrod? A lot of what youve said should have happened wouldnt have made a very sound car. Too much stuff just thrown together. Unless we had to wait for it to be an '09 model or something.
Does a ZO6 get 10 miles per gallon?? Last I checked is does about as well as my 06 gt. Modular would surely be cheaper for ford and fine, but all I am saying is that I like pushrod motors. How would have it been thrown together?? If ford had built their own equivilant of a ZO6 motor, and put it in the mustang along with some minor suspension work, the car would have been outstanding. 351 is too small. We are after big-block torque here.
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450 HP out of ANY car is sweet. 450 HP in a Mustang, that's insanely awesome.
If people are that big 'anti-GT500', why bother discussing it. Go get your Terminator, or whatever you want and have fun.
I dont hate the car. I just think that ford really dropped the ball here. They had an opportunity to really give chevy a run for the money by offering a really hot mustang at a decent price. By limiting production, and letting dealers mark the cars up to the moon, they are cutting their own throats AGAIN. Just like the last T-bird, etc, etc.
Stop making these limited production, high dealer markup cars, and build something people want to and can actually buy without hassle.
Ford and GM want to make money, but shoot themselves in the foot before they begin.
+1 A strip down base C6 starts at $44K. Trade in a car thats worth about $10K and your financing $34K plus tax and licensing which would be about $650-$700 per month for six years with a good rate. Definatly not out of reach for a middleclass family. The only problem is most middleclass familys will dump that kind of car note that benefits everone in the family such as a nice SUV or a upscale sedan.
whoawhoawhoawhoawhoawhoa.... hang on there man...
lets pretend for one second, you could get a brand new corvette at 34K after trade in..
what the fcuk kind of middle class family has 650 dollars to spend A MONTH!!!!! on a freaking 'luxury car' (as in, not a necessity)......
i dont know what the heck your definition of 'middle class' is,, but that is a freaking boatload of money,,,that's actually A LOT higher than I would have guessed.. and i mean A LOT higher
that is more than MANY families pay for their mortgage...
my family is by no means rich, but we are not at all poor.. and there is no way in hell i could even fathom our family affording 650-700 dollars a month on a car.. that is insane
please, if anyone else agrees with me here please chime in
im actually shocked you can consider that within the means of a majority of middle class people
my family isnt rich, but that is ALOT of money for a mid class family. we cant afford that.
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Nick Gold 2000 Sixer (My sisters sixer) Will change color when handed down to me.
+1 A strip down base C6 starts at $44K. Trade in a car thats worth about $10K and your financing $34K plus tax and licensing which would be about $650-$700 per month for six years with a good rate. Definatly not out of reach for a middleclass family. The only problem is most middleclass familys will dump that kind of car note that benefits everone in the family such as a nice SUV or a upscale sedan.
whoawhoawhoawhoawhoawhoa.... hang on there man...
lets pretend for one second, you could get a brand new corvette at 34K after trade in..
what the fcuk kind of middle class family has 650 dollars to spend A MONTH!!!!! on a freaking 'luxury car' (as in, not a necessity)......
i dont know what the heck your definition of 'middle class' is,, but that is a freaking boatload of money,,,that's actually A LOT higher than I would have guessed.. and i mean A LOT higher
that is more than MANY families pay for their mortgage...
my family is by no means rich, but we are not at all poor.. and there is no way in hell i could even fathom our family affording 650-700 dollars a month on a car.. that is insane
please, if anyone else agrees with me here please chime in
im actually shocked you can consider that within the means of a majority of middle class people
my family isnt rich, but that is ALOT of money for a mid class family. we cant afford that.
forgot to add +1
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Nick Gold 2000 Sixer (My sisters sixer) Will change color when handed down to me.
My brother leases his 2005 C6. It's some sort of lease that builds equity in the car and he bumped the yearly mileage to 20k. It is his 2nd car and did not have one to trade in. His payment through GMAC is $980 and change. How many people here can afford that for a part time car? Raise your hand.
If I were single, I'd be driving a Ford GT. But I am not. I'm married with 2 kids, age 11 and 10. They cost money. They need braces, eat a plenty of food ($250/wk is my average food bill). They go through clothes like water. I have their college to think about. I opted for a $500 monthly payment for my STI instead and my household income is quadruple the mean.
ME, I put down $0. and my payments are $955.00 per month . That also includes gap insurance and the extended warranty.
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2006 Corvette coupe/Corsa sport exhaust w/ mid-pipe 1999 Mustang GT/stock
650 doesent shock me. 950 is obsurd. I think that location does have alot to do with it. Around here. In northern NJ you cannot touch a decent house for a family for under 500K dollars unless you go off the beaten path and hike to work.
But looking at car payments for a second and forgetting about leasing. Alot of people are in the 400-500 range with 500 being more common now a days. The average is actually 380 a month for 63 months.
My brother leases his 2005 C6. It's some sort of lease that builds equity in the car and he bumped the yearly mileage to 20k. It is his 2nd car and did not have one to trade in. His payment through GMAC is $980 and change. How many people here can afford that for a part time car? Raise your hand.
If I were single, I'd be driving a Ford GT. But I am not. I'm married with 2 kids, age 11 and 10. They cost money. They need braces, eat a plenty of food ($250/wk is my average food bill). They go through clothes like water. I have their college to think about. I opted for a $500 monthly payment for my STI instead and my household income is quadruple the mean.
ME, I put down $0. and my payments are $955.00 per month . That also includes gap insurance and the extended warranty.
I am not sure if he got an extended warranty or not. His lease is for 6 years. I wasn't willing to spend a grand, plus additional insurance on a car I woudn't drive year round (he doesn't, nor would I drive a new 'Vette through a NY winter). So I opted for a $500 payment for 36 months for a sporty car that I can drive in the snow if I want. Also, I didn't want to sell my Mustang. That would have brought the payments down a little, but still not enough to justify the payemnt.
Team MF Member #007 Posts: 9822
Joined: 1/5/2004 From: My moms uterus Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: C6 VETTE
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ORIGINAL: BicketyBam
My brother leases his 2005 C6. It's some sort of lease that builds equity in the car and he bumped the yearly mileage to 20k. It is his 2nd car and did not have one to trade in. His payment through GMAC is $980 and change. How many people here can afford that for a part time car? Raise your hand.
If I were single, I'd be driving a Ford GT. But I am not. I'm married with 2 kids, age 11 and 10. They cost money. They need braces, eat a plenty of food ($250/wk is my average food bill). They go through clothes like water. I have their college to think about. I opted for a $500 monthly payment for my STI instead and my household income is quadruple the mean.
ME, I put down $0. and my payments are $955.00 per month . That also includes gap insurance and the extended warranty.
Did you parents ever leave the movie "Failure to Launch" on the counter for you to watch?
I'm at sea level in San Francisco and the average winter temp is in the low 50's so I have the option of driving all year round. But I see your point.............Six years is an awful long term for a lease.........He should almost have the entire car paid off by the end of his lease.
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2006 Corvette coupe/Corsa sport exhaust w/ mid-pipe 1999 Mustang GT/stock
My brother leases his 2005 C6. It's some sort of lease that builds equity in the car and he bumped the yearly mileage to 20k. It is his 2nd car and did not have one to trade in. His payment through GMAC is $980 and change. How many people here can afford that for a part time car? Raise your hand.
If I were single, I'd be driving a Ford GT. But I am not. I'm married with 2 kids, age 11 and 10. They cost money. They need braces, eat a plenty of food ($250/wk is my average food bill). They go through clothes like water. I have their college to think about. I opted for a $500 monthly payment for my STI instead and my household income is quadruple the mean.
ME, I put down $0. and my payments are $955.00 per month . That also includes gap insurance and the extended warranty.
Did you parents ever leave the movie "Failure to Launch" on the counter for you to watch?
My brother leases his 2005 C6. It's some sort of lease that builds equity in the car and he bumped the yearly mileage to 20k. It is his 2nd car and did not have one to trade in. His payment through GMAC is $980 and change. How many people here can afford that for a part time car? Raise your hand.
If I were single, I'd be driving a Ford GT. But I am not. I'm married with 2 kids, age 11 and 10. They cost money. They need braces, eat a plenty of food ($250/wk is my average food bill). They go through clothes like water. I have their college to think about. I opted for a $500 monthly payment for my STI instead and my household income is quadruple the mean.
ME, I put down $0. and my payments are $955.00 per month . That also includes gap insurance and the extended warranty.
Did you parents ever leave the movie "Failure to Launch" on the counter for you to watch?
Sha..no kidding. I believe in giving a kid a head start (covering college and maybe helping with a home downpayment if you can) but not letting them freeload through life on my dime. If my kid could afford $955.00 for JUST a car living at home guess what, they wouldn't be living at home much longer
Any lease / loan on a car is ridicules. If you can’t afford to put down the entire amount, don’t buy that car. It’s that simple. It that means you can only drive second hand vehicles so be it. I wonder why there are so many people filing for bankruptcy in the states... I really do.
I am seriously appalled by the American way of lending for absolutely everything. Things might change when I am living in the states for years, but right now there is only one thing I will bust out a loan for. And it isn’t even considered a loan it’s a mortgage. Why would you want more monthly payments? It screws up with your ability to do nice stuff and save up for the far future.
And yes, if you can finance at a true 0% I’d do it in a heartbeat. That means you can leave your money in savings and actually gain money. But anything else just makes you pay a lot more for the car in the end. That just doesn’t make any sense. I’d rather drive a Jap eco-mobile than pay interest on my payments for a car I’d really want.
Sorry if I sound harsh, this is just my opinion on the subject. Good Old Dutch values.
Any lease / loan on a car is ridicules. If you can’t afford to put down the entire amount, don’t buy that car. It’s that simple. It that means you can only drive second hand vehicles so be it. I wonder why there are so many people filing for bankruptcy in the states... I really do.
I am seriously appalled by the American way of lending for absolutely everything. Things might change when I am living in the states for years, but right now there is only one thing I will bust out a loan for. And it isn’t even considered a loan it’s a mortgage. Why would you want more monthly payments? It screws up with your ability to do nice stuff and save up for the far future.
And yes, if you can finance at a true 0% I’d do it in a heartbeat. That means you can leave your money in savings and actually gain money. But anything else just makes you pay a lot more for the car in the end. That just doesn’t make any sense. I’d rather drive a Jap eco-mobile than pay interest on my payments for a car I’d really want.
Sorry if I sound harsh, this is just my opinion on the subject. Good Old Dutch values.
Let me see. I can take a loan at an interest rate of 4% or less and invest my money that nets a return of 7%-8%, or I can pay for the car in cash and receive 0% on my money. That's a tough choice.
You are free to pay cash for everything if you so desire. But to make a blanket statement that if you "can't afford to pay for the car in cash, then don't buy" it is moronic. With the favorable interest rates that are offered these days, you'd have to be an idiot to pay cash even if you had enough liquidity to buy 4 of said car.
You don't sound harsh - you sound ignorant, and for that I am sorry.
Printable Version
RE: GT500 -ford's big mistake? - 
Let's see...oh yeah..College among other things. 
