RE: throttle body spacer?
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/23/2006 8:29:11 PM
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scrming
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From http://www.kennebell.net/faq/faq-answers2.htm
How can I tell if my filter assembly, meter, throttle body inlet hoses or manifolds are restrictive and losing HP? Use the time-proven Kenne Bell approach. Flow the individual pieces on a flow bench. See "Inlet System Testing." If you don't have access to a bench, install a tap behind each component in the inlet track, make a dyno pull or a WOT run on the street in low or second gear and read the vacuum gauge. If it's "0" there are no losses and, therefore, upgrading components will not help. However, if there is a 4" Hg reading - that's 2 psi of lost atmospheric boost and 20HP (1 psi=10HP). Works on carbureted engines also. Now you know how to analyze inlet systems. You'd be amazed at how many don't.
So does anyone have a vacum/boost gauge on their NA car? I thought someone did... Anyways... bottom line put a vacuum gauge in and see if you have vacuum at WOT... if not then your throttle body is not a bottleneck and a larger one won't do you any good...
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/23/2006 10:21:58 PM
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blackfoot
Posts: 1790
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after reading this.. my head hurts..
btw
well put scrming.
its like our exahust manifolds there is like no gain on them since our stock manifolds are as free flowing as it gets.. the only improvemtn is a noisy one
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/23/2006 11:07:12 PM
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rmays06
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Thank you scrmng I'm here for the knowledge and info that get provided. I like to see fact or here compelling arguements about why these things we do work. I'm not here to listen to BS and hear only KILL stories.
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/23/2006 11:22:07 PM
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enorym
Posts: 152
Joined: 8/18/2006
From: Napa, CA
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wow your nose is a little bit browner rmays06 why dont you guys just make out? Someone correct me if im wrong math doesnt lie. More air in + More air out + More gas = MORE power right? Are you not forcing air into your car with a supercharger or a turbo kit? Are you creating a bottle neck at the entrance of your engine? Well screeming you need a BIGGER throttle body dont you? Your ramble only confused people hooking up a boost gauge to a naturaly asperated car sounds ricey. Kinda sounds like two tachometers and a massive pill light. Your right though about how to check vacume regardless your wrong about equation in my eyes. Have lidlo help you out eh?
< Message edited by enorym -- 8/23/2006 11:23:54 PM >
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 1:50:48 AM
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LX200
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No... the piston is a fixed volume. Each piston is 4/6 or .6666 liters of volume. The air in the plenum flows from the plenum into the cylinder during the intake stroke. As long as enough air can flow into the cylinder from the plenum, then you have max air and max power. CAI's bring in colder air which is more dense. Superchargers compress the air, so that more O2 molecules fit into the .66666 L volume of a cylinder during intake, and the pressure of the air in the cylinder is 9 psi higher than the normal atmospeheric pressure with no turbo. Having a greater volume ABOVE the cylinders does not help push more air into the cylinder unless there is too small an area in the plenum.
It appears the plenum is adequately sized in our V6'ers, because many folks have dynoed and found no gain.
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 2:02:30 AM
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enorym
Posts: 152
Joined: 8/18/2006
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I realy havent seen a single before and after dyno. Show me one and I will belive.
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 3:59:55 AM
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chrisc
Posts: 3696
Joined: 10/20/2005
From: Seattle, WA
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first off, i know enorym is the minority in this thread, but i have to take to his last post, because i completely agree with him
okay, i am having issues with what people are saying about this throttle body spacer. people have reported no maximum gains, but nobody has posted a dyno. my issue is, not everything is about maxium gain. maximum gain is important, but gains along the rpm bands are very important also.
for example,
as you can see in the dyno on alternative autos page for their v6 tune, the peak gains of hp and torque are not very high, but the slope of the gains were majorly imporved, which is what really matters.
anyways, i did get a MMR tbs a few days ago, i havent put it on yet because lack of time, and when i do put it on i will for sure not dyno. (i dont think i will ever take my car to a dyno or a strip...ever). i want to see for myself if there is any gains.
< Message edited by chrisc -- 8/24/2006 4:00:45 AM >
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 8:02:13 AM
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scrming
Posts: 2743
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enorym
wow your nose is a little bit browner rmays06 why dont you guys just make out? Someone correct me if im wrong math doesnt lie. More air in + More air out + More gas = MORE power right? Are you not forcing air into your car with a supercharger or a turbo kit? Are you creating a bottle neck at the entrance of your engine? Well screeming you need a BIGGER throttle body dont you? Your ramble only confused people hooking up a boost gauge to a naturaly asperated car sounds ricey. Kinda sounds like two tachometers and a massive pill light. Your right though about how to check vacume regardless your wrong about equation in my eyes. Have lidlo help you out eh?
Ok... I will have to stoop to your level.... I can not restrain myself anymore.... YOU ARE A COMPLETE IDIOT. The thottle body is NOT the bottle neck. PUTTING A SLIGHTLY BIGGER THROTTLE BODY OR A SPACER WILL DO NOTHING! The stock throttle body is suffient enough! Now why don't you shutup.. .or better yet... why don't you leave (like you promised to do!) You have spewed more misinformation in a few short posts than anyone I have ever seen! You are a complete dis-service to this formum....
And as far as Lidio... Lidio is one of the top mustang guys in the world... When Lidio speaks you better be listening! I also have Scott Hoag in my corner! Scott was the chief engineer on the Bullitt and the Mach 1! Scott has forgotten more about cars then you will ever hope to know! I am very lucky to have the most repected guys in the industry helping with my car!
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 8:05:35 AM
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scrming
Posts: 2743
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quote:
ORIGINAL: chrisc
first off, i know enorym is the minority in this thread, but i have to take to his last post, because i completely agree with him
okay, i am having issues with what people are saying about this throttle body spacer. people have reported no maximum gains, but nobody has posted a dyno. my issue is, not everything is about maxium gain. maximum gain is important, but gains along the rpm bands are very important also.
for example,
as you can see in the dyno on alternative autos page for their v6 tune, the peak gains of hp and torque are not very high, but the slope of the gains were majorly imporved, which is what really matters.
anyways, i did get a MMR tbs a few days ago, i havent put it on yet because lack of time, and when i do put it on i will for sure not dyno. (i dont think i will ever take my car to a dyno or a strip...ever). i want to see for myself if there is any gains.
996r (you know the guy) posted that he dyno'ed the TBS and seen no gains... While he didn't post the sheet, i know he didn't get any gains... He had it done at Lidio's shop and I talked to Lidio about it...
Doug at Bamachips dyno'ed the throttle body and seen no gains....
That's enough for me...
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 8:20:13 AM
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05BlackPony
Posts: 660
Joined: 7/27/2005
From: Race City, USA
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: scrming
quote:
ORIGINAL: chrisc
first off, i know enorym is the minority in this thread, but i have to take to his last post, because i completely agree with him
okay, i am having issues with what people are saying about this throttle body spacer. people have reported no maximum gains, but nobody has posted a dyno. my issue is, not everything is about maxium gain. maximum gain is important, but gains along the rpm bands are very important also.
for example,
as you can see in the dyno on alternative autos page for their v6 tune, the peak gains of hp and torque are not very high, but the slope of the gains were majorly imporved, which is what really matters.
anyways, i did get a MMR tbs a few days ago, i havent put it on yet because lack of time, and when i do put it on i will for sure not dyno. (i dont think i will ever take my car to a dyno or a strip...ever). i want to see for myself if there is any gains.
996r (you know the guy) posted that he dyno'ed the TBS and seen no gains... While he didn't post the sheet, i know he didn't get any gains... He had it done at Lidio's shop and I talked to Lidio about it...
Doug at Bamachips dyno'ed the throttle body and seen no gains....
That's enough for me...
+1
I remember seeing Doug's dyno on the TB on another forum.
Good for nothing.
Both pieces are worthless.
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 11:26:21 AM
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enorym
Posts: 152
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I still havent seen any dyno proof about the TB spacer or TB. I want someone besides me to do it. Because if I do it everyone else wont belive anyways. only a few words of mouth. More Air In + More Air Out = More power. I could care less who anyone is its pure logic. If you cant handel logic Im sorry im just telling you logicly It adds more space. Fact of the matter is Ive been working on cars longer than you, ive only had my mustang for 6 months. Give me a year and ill be beyond you in naturaly asperated fourm. Personaly I dont like the way you've modified your car personaly I think it looks untasteful but everyone has thier opinions and ill leave it at that. Im happy to see a 4.0L run a quartermile faster than people would expect. But there are limitations that your automatic bring it to, as well as driving skill. However what I said is logical...what your saying is that a upgradeable part that was designed to make things better is useless is realy hard to belive especaily after having both of these modifications plus a CAI I can see a major differance "simular to a header install". Maybe no Hp gains? How about Torque who cares about Horse power you can have a car with 1000hp-0tq and a car with 1000tq-0hp, and the car with 1000tq would win the sprint, and the car that has the hp would win the longdistance race depending if it had enough time to catch up. I want HP and TQ Dyno stats, without that your senceless mathimatical equasions and your way of checking for bottle necks is irrelavant. Let me add a few factors in...More Air In + More Air Out + Larger throttle body + CAI + Headers = More power/less resistance hence power finders.
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 12:33:29 PM
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scrming
Posts: 2743
Joined: 9/7/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enorym
I still havent seen any dyno proof about the TB spacer or TB. I want someone besides me to do it. Because if I do it everyone else wont belive anyways. only a few words of mouth. More Air In + More Air Out = More power. I could care less who anyone is its pure logic. If you cant handel logic Im sorry im just telling you logicly It adds more space. Fact of the matter is Ive been working on cars longer than you, ive only had my mustang for 6 months. Give me a year and ill be beyond you in naturaly asperated fourm. Personaly I dont like the way you've modified your car personaly I think it looks untasteful but everyone has thier opinions and ill leave it at that. Im happy to see a 4.0L run a quartermile faster than people would expect. But there are limitations that your automatic bring it to, as well as driving skill. However what I said is logical...what your saying is that a upgradeable part that was designed to make things better is useless is realy hard to belive especaily after having both of these modifications plus a CAI I can see a major differance "simular to a header install". Maybe no Hp gains? How about Torque who cares about Horse power you can have a car with 1000hp-0tq and a car with 1000tq-0hp, and the car with 1000tq would win the sprint, and the car that has the hp would win the longdistance race depending if it had enough time to catch up. I want HP and TQ Dyno stats, without that your senceless mathimatical equasions and your way of checking for bottle necks is irrelavant. Let me add a few factors in...More Air In + More Air Out + Larger throttle body + CAI + Headers = More power/less resistance hence power finders.
Since you have the TB and TBS... where are YOUR before and after dyno sheets? Where are ANY of your dyno sheets? Where are your time slips? Heck where are you pictures of your Mustang?
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 12:49:42 PM
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boss 244
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And for us slow folks, I ran my car at the strip with and without the mmr throttle body spacer on the same day, same temprature, same tune. There was no change in times either way, no gain or loss in 60 foot or trap speed.
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 1:14:49 PM
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enorym
Posts: 152
Joined: 8/18/2006
From: Napa, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: scrming
quote:
ORIGINAL: enorym
I still havent seen any dyno proof about the TB spacer or TB. I want someone besides me to do it. Because if I do it everyone else wont belive anyways. only a few words of mouth. More Air In + More Air Out = More power. I could care less who anyone is its pure logic. If you cant handel logic Im sorry im just telling you logicly It adds more space. Fact of the matter is Ive been working on cars longer than you, ive only had my mustang for 6 months. Give me a year and ill be beyond you in naturaly asperated fourm. Personaly I dont like the way you've modified your car personaly I think it looks untasteful but everyone has thier opinions and ill leave it at that. Im happy to see a 4.0L run a quartermile faster than people would expect. But there are limitations that your automatic bring it to, as well as driving skill. However what I said is logical...what your saying is that a upgradeable part that was designed to make things better is useless is realy hard to belive especaily after having both of these modifications plus a CAI I can see a major differance "simular to a header install". Maybe no Hp gains? How about Torque who cares about Horse power you can have a car with 1000hp-0tq and a car with 1000tq-0hp, and the car with 1000tq would win the sprint, and the car that has the hp would win the longdistance race depending if it had enough time to catch up. I want HP and TQ Dyno stats, without that your senceless mathimatical equasions and your way of checking for bottle necks is irrelavant. Let me add a few factors in...More Air In + More Air Out + Larger throttle body + CAI + Headers = More power/less resistance hence power finders.
Since you have the TB and TBS... where are YOUR before and after dyno sheets? Where are ANY of your dyno sheets? Where are your time slips? Heck where are you pictures of your Mustang?
Gosh ive shown them soo many times "pictures" I never got a before dyno ive only owned the car for 6 months, I bought it new the day I got it home I put my wheels and tires on it, and my sequencial tail lights, ive had them on my fiero's before so I was just itching to put them on my stang. I had some of my mods waiting to be put on the car as soon as I got it home. I never dyno'ed it stock or after...I cant dyno it stock because once you take off your tps off the stock trottle body the screws snap and break off. I thought the screws for the Drive By Wire Throttle body motor were going to break or strip but they did not. I like the fact that your running 13's in your mustang I think that's awsome for the comunity. Regardless of how mean ive sounded in previous posts I have to give you that credit. We cant sound like Camaro owners, mustang owners are diffrent we should work together to beat all other odds. Regardless you like to tune one way, I like to tune another way. Some of you might recoignize me from cougar fest. Regardless sorry for the insults. And I hope all of you can accept me for what I stand for in the mustang community. Im just asking for proof besides me. Because if I go dyno, if I show an improvement everyone wont belive me anyways. Here is my mustang nothing cosmetic except for the rims and the GT badges.
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 1:15:52 PM
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chuckcsf
Posts: 195
Joined: 7/18/2006
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How about your R/T? Did you see any improvements on yout R/T? lol
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 1:22:14 PM
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05BlackPony
Posts: 660
Joined: 7/27/2005
From: Race City, USA
Status: online
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Just by chance... why did you put GT emblems on your six? 
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20" Stern ST-7 Hypermesh on Nitto 555's l JBA SS Dual Exhaust/Custom H/Cut-outs l Hellwig Sways lCHE LCA's l JLT Intake/ SCT 93 Oct Bamachip Tunes l FRPP T-lok l Motive 4.10
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RE: throttle body spacer? - 8/24/2006 1:26:24 PM
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scrming
Posts: 2743
Joined: 9/7/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: enorym
quote:
ORIGINAL: scrming
quote:
ORIGINAL: enorym
I still havent seen any dyno proof about the TB spacer or TB. I want someone besides me to do it. Because if I do it everyone else wont belive anyways. only a few words of mouth. More Air In + More Air Out = More power. I could care less who anyone is its pure logic. If you cant handel logic Im sorry im just telling you logicly It adds more space. Fact of the matter is Ive been working on cars longer than you, ive only had my mustang for 6 months. Give me a year and ill be beyond you in naturaly asperated fourm. Personaly I dont like the way you've modified your car personaly I think it looks untasteful but everyone has thier opinions and ill leave it at that. Im happy to see a 4.0L run a quartermile faster than people would expect. But there are limitations that your automatic bring it to, as well as driving skill. However what I said is logical...what your saying is that a upgradeable part that was designed to make things better is useless is realy hard to belive especaily after having both of these modifications plus a CAI I can see a major differance "simular to a header install". Maybe no Hp gains? How about Torque who cares about Horse power you can have a car with 1000hp-0tq and a car with 1000tq-0hp, and the car with 1000tq would win the sprint, and the car that has the hp would win the longdistance race depending if it had enough time to catch up. I want HP and TQ Dyno stats, without that your senceless mathimatical equasions and your way of checking for bottle necks is irrelavant. Let me add a few factors in...More Air In + More Air Out + Larger throttle body + CAI + Headers = More power/less resistance hence power finders.
Since you have the TB and TBS... where are YOUR before and after dyno sheets? Where are ANY of your dyno sheets? Where are your time slips? Heck where are you pictures of your Mustang?
Gosh ive shown them soo many times "pictures" I never got a before dyno ive only owned the car for 6 months, I bought it new the day I got it home I put my wheels and tires on it, and my sequencial tail lights, ive had them on my fiero's before so I was just itching to put them on my stang. I had some of my mods waiting to be put on the car as soon as I got it home. I never dyno'ed it stock or after...I cant dyno it stock because once you take off your tps off the stock trottle body the screws snap and break off. I thought the screws for the Drive By Wire Throttle body motor were going to break or strip but they did not. I like the fact that your running 13's in your mustang I think that's awsome for the comunity. Regardless of how mean ive sounded in previous posts I have to give you that credit. We cant sound like Camaro owners, mustang owners are diffrent we should work together to beat all other odds. Regardless you like to tune one way, I like to tune another way. Some of you might recoignize me from cougar fest. Regardless sorry for the insults. And I hope all of you can accept me for what I stand for in the mustang community. Im just asking for proof besides me. Because if I go dyno, if I show an improvement everyone wont belive me anyways. Here is my mustang nothing cosmetic except for the rims and the GT badges.
We've given you proof... Both Lidio and Doug are well respected guys... They have no reason to lie... if they say they did dyno's and saw no gains then there are no gains! Also as Boss just showed there was no change in his 1/4 mile times with the spacer... Sorry you can't seem to come to terms with the fact that your TB and TBS got you nothing!
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