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ORIGINAL: C6 VETTE

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ORIGINAL: pyromania

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ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6

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ORIGINAL: pyromania

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ORIGINAL: C6 VETTE

I will admit the last few years has'nt been in GM's favor. In the mid 90's almost every police dept. in the country used Impala's/ Caprice's now look. GM decided to shrink the Impala and turn it into a 6cyl. Now the Ford Crown Vic's dominate the Police/Govt fleets as well as the taxi cab company fleets.

Also I used to work for a limo company in the mid 90's and asked what ever happen to the Caddy Fleetwood limo's and sedans. Their response was Cadillac turned their full sized sedans into front wheel drive and the limo industry went the way of the Lincoln.

So I do agree that GM needs to find something and stick with it.

Even on the side of Ford, everybody has to stick with a car and if they abandon it and then years later try to reintroduce the line it just makes it that much harder for the product to sell (its a gamble). remember the Thunderbird. Although I think the high asking price had alot to do with its demise. I just hope this does'nt happen to the Camaro. But on the bright side unit sales were up last year maybe it had to do with the redesign of the Vette.

you are right there. about the t-bird. but the cougar was changed to a FWD coupe and i don't see them anywhere either. i think the new vette might promote more vette sales but GM has to get a real sports coupe, they go from the cavabalt to the solstice/sky straight to the 60k+ vette. they need something in the middle, something that starts out at around 20k and is able to go to 40k. they need to use the stang as an example, base v6 20-25k, v8 option 22-27k, kickass model 26-33k, and maybe a specialty. i honestly don't see it happening.

+1 regardless of who you are.

Except the not seeing it happening thing. They tried with the GTO, only no base models. I think they will do the base/mid/high level models with the new camaro if it ever comes out, just to keep up with ford if nothing else.

GM had it with the GTO/Monaro. they had something going. don't know what, but no base v6 killed that car

I think this car was doomed from the start. Everybody's squakking more about the looks more than the price. Mid $30's is'nt bad for the roomy interior , a fairly spacious back seat and a powerful engine with impressive performance numbers. If this car was a looker it might have sold. And instead of saving money by having a six cyl option, they give you a GS 6. (A completely different car) You want to see a car thats worthless to a dead market it's the GS6

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ORIGINAL: C6 VETTE

It is VERY important for the Camaro to survive it's reincarnation. If it does'nt , I don't see GM to ever be a major player in the mid price muscle car arena. I can't remember any model line that had it's plug pulled then be reintroduced to have any margin of success compared to its previous history before its demise (GM has a tough task on their hands). All we can do is wait. I will say this much, the F-bodys are still common place but could you imagine how dead this forum would be without the GM rivalry. It's is extremely crucial for GM, but in a lesser extent its also crucial for FORD.

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ORIGINAL: pyromania

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ORIGINAL: C6 VETTE

It is VERY important for the Camaro to survive it's reincarnation. If it does'nt , I don't see GM to ever be a major player in the mid price muscle car arena. I can't remember any model line that had it's plug pulled then be reintroduced to have any margin of success compared to its previous history before its demise (GM has a tough task on their hands). All we can do is wait. I will say this much, the F-bodys are still common place but could you imagine how dead this forum would be without the GM rivalry. It's is extremely crucial for GM, but in a lesser extent its also crucial for FORD.

that's true. it will cause ford to lower it's prices on the stang. it might also force mopar to introduce their own pony car. it could make, or break, the Big 3.

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Warning: Clif is extremely snide, sarcastic, and a little crazy

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ORIGINAL: Clif Brohn

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ORIGINAL: pyromania

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ORIGINAL: C6 VETTE

It is VERY important for the Camaro to survive it's reincarnation. If it does'nt , I don't see GM to ever be a major player in the mid price muscle car arena. I can't remember any model line that had it's plug pulled then be reintroduced to have any margin of success compared to its previous history before its demise (GM has a tough task on their hands). All we can do is wait. I will say this much, the F-bodys are still common place but could you imagine how dead this forum would be without the GM rivalry. It's is extremely crucial for GM, but in a lesser extent its also crucial for FORD.

that's true. it will cause ford to lower it's prices on the stang. it might also force mopar to introduce their own pony car. it could make, or break, the Big 3.

Huh? If it does anything, it will cause Ford to kick it into high gear. More Mustang models, maybe even new cars. We could see the return of the Gran Torino, or hopefully see the return of SVT as a means to compete with GM.

On a Side note, what are the "Big 3" right now? I dont think it's still Ford, GM, and Daimler/Chrysler. Not sure though.

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ORIGINAL: Pewterwssicc

I read almost all of this post and there are only three things i have to say. I dont wanna be rude and the mods probably wont like this, but here it goes.

Birdieman i almost thought you might have some good info until you made this post. I do see the point you where trying to make, but you went about it the wrong way and a lot of what you said was jsut plain incorrect. I dont know how the hell you could say a cast iron 4V is lighter than a pushrod aluminum engine. You said all things being equal, well they arent all equal. You cant just use a magical new engine for your comparison "a 4V with an aluminum block, titanium cams, and carbone fiber valves." If your comparing you have to compare whats there. Anyway a 4V aluminum engine with a S/C i am sure weighs more than our 5.7L aluminum pushrod engine. Think about it, you have 3 more cams, 16 more springs, and so on and so forth. That 4V is also noticeably bigger in proportional size, which in my opinion is why the front of musangs are shaped as aerodynamically as the pushrod cars are, IMO. Could be wrong on the aerodynamics, but it definately looks like it.

20004.6 i never really thought you knew what you where talking about and after this one i believe even less. Build quality on the F-bodies and Mustang are not that far apart. I have seen lots of both cars break trannies, rear-ends, and so forth. My friend had to go to Arbitration to get his 02 GT lemon lawed because it had endless tranny and electrical problems, after he bought an 02 WS6 and again broke the tranny a couple times and eventually blew the motor. But he did those with 430rwhp and it wasnt broken in properly on the drive here we think. The Vette is working off of a long long period of progressive development and uses many parts or similar parts that it has used for years now. So i dont see how it could not be profitable, by your own explanation of a car needing some years for the production to get streamlined and parts cheaper, how much cheaper do you want parts than basically a 10 year old engine.

Lastly Pzero, i just dont have the words for this one. Ill start with the comment that F-bodies handle like crap. Its funny that they outhandle every mustang Ford has made except the 03/04 Cobras. F-bodies can pull a .88-.89 lateral G, in comparison to the Mustang GTs .84. You shouldnt ask old mechanics about todays performance, really you shouldnt ask any mechanics, ask a speed shop. Those ASE mechanics work on Hondas and Toyotas and such most of the time. And if there old, they probably stillt hink Carburated is better than EFI. 30rwhp from exhaust is easily attainable, a set of long-tubes, off-road Y-pipe, and a cutout or cat-back will easily get you another 30rwhp.

For my final thoguht on this thread I would like to point out that i am not a Mustang hater and i dont think LS cars are gods gift to racing. There are plenty of cars on both sides that are stupid fast and can wreck shop on each other. I do think the LS cars are a better platform for racing and modding, except for the mighty 03/04 Cobras. Those are without a doubt some bad ass cars. The 03/04 Cobras are to Ford guys, what the ZO6 is to chevy guys. It is an awesome performer and excellent capabilities. Thought of buying one myself when they first came out. Anyhow those are my thought, like them or not. And ofcourse ill leave you guys with two sayings.

Run what you brung
There really is no replacement for displacement

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ORIGINAL: 03YellowPony

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ORIGINAL: pyromania

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ORIGINAL: C6 VETTE



When Porsch releases a 911 Carrera w/ 4 seats and a 4cyl to make it affordable to the masses then we can talk about Corvette makeovers.................

actually porsch made an entry level car. it was the 914. i don't know specs, and i don't really give a SH!T about 'em. what everyone is saying is GM needs to drop a few of the crappy selling cars from their lineup, and bring back an affordable sports car with an entry and performance level engine. and they need to do something called quality control. they actually had a thing going with the GTO, just no v6. if they had done that and called it the Le Mans like back in the day, it would be selling like crazy, instead of on a respirator. the f-bodies were fast, but there is a very good reason they are taking a dirt-nap, they didn't sell. you could get a Mustang GT well-equipped for the price of a similarly equipped v6 f-body. and it is a more reliable car.

You are so full of it BUGGER OFF!!

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ORIGINAL: pyromania

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ORIGINAL: 03YellowPony

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ORIGINAL: pyromania

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ORIGINAL: C6 VETTE



When Porsch releases a 911 Carrera w/ 4 seats and a 4cyl to make it affordable to the masses then we can talk about Corvette makeovers.................

actually porsch made an entry level car. it was the 914. i don't know specs, and i don't really give a SH!T about 'em. what everyone is saying is GM needs to drop a few of the crappy selling cars from their lineup, and bring back an affordable sports car with an entry and performance level engine. and they need to do something called quality control. they actually had a thing going with the GTO, just no v6. if they had done that and called it the Le Mans like back in the day, it would be selling like crazy, instead of on a respirator. the f-bodies were fast, but there is a very good reason they are taking a dirt-nap, they didn't sell. you could get a Mustang GT well-equipped for the price of a similarly equipped v6 f-body. and it is a more reliable car.

You are so full of it BUGGER OFF!!

here you go. the "mighty" porsche 914

http://vista.pca.org/stl/914.htm

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ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6

I can tell you one thing for 100 percent sure, after being in the automotive buisness for awhile, and seeing how things work in the buisness and how they make money. Every vette that rolls off the line costs GM money. Hell, every car they make, including econobox 4cyl, are costing them money.

On the changes thing, it is not the general concept that changes, but the tooling required to make the car. Look at the camry, how long did that mid 90s bodystyle last? Forever. And they made a entire company off the car. This is simply because the longer you make the exact same product, the more inovation you can come up with to make it cheaper and faster, and the more streamlined the production process is, so you make more money.

It's not a matter of what the vette costs the consumer. Its the fact that it is such a low volume car. This is why the other cars in the performance range of the vette cost so much more. Because they are low volume cars, and the suppliers that make them refuse to (because they can't afford it) loose money on the cars. GM however is so large that for the time being they can afford to loose money.

You need to make ALOT of cars of the same exact type to make money. This is why the escape/tribute line was making money, but the mariner line was not. They sold the CRAP out of escape/tribute (200+ thousand a year minmum on the escape alone). We make soo many of them, and got so good at it, it cost us virtually nothing to produce. Then, Ford steps in with the mariner line, with an extremely complicated applique (fake wood) plastic panel, and all the money goes out the door.

I am not saying that if the vette was making money GM would be making money. Nor am I saying that the vette is the reason GM is in trouble, far from it. All I am saying is that it would make good buisness since, and it would guarentee that the vette will always be around (well so long as we are still allowed to even produce performance cars).

You might say that the vette is invicincible, but I bet more than a few people would have said the same thing about the camaro/firebird just a few years ago.

BTW, there can be absoluty no arguement that the imports are doing a better job of producing, marketing, and selling cars than the domestic car companys. This is not a opinion, its just simple fact.

Edit: BTW, how can you say nobody would buy a 25K~ V6 vette? They would sell so fast it would make your head spin. Just like the V6 mustang. Do you have any idea how fast the Mustang would be gone if they could not sell the V6 anymore?

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ORIGINAL: janine

Well, tell me this, since engines are basically air pumps, if a stock 281 2V makes 230 rwhp, and the same engine putting out 10 - 12 psi makes 430 rwhp, how many more cubic inches would it take for that engine to make 430 rwhp normally asperated?

If a 281 ci engine makes 230 HP, that means it makes one HP per 1.22 cubic inch. Given that formular, to make another 200 hp, you would have to
multiply 1.22 x 430 (target HP) = 524ci.

How many pounds is a 524 ci engine and how many pounds is a 281 ci engine with an additional 80 or so pounds?

I think the blown small block beats out the big block head and shoulders.

Any arguments?

Janine

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ORIGINAL: 98LS1

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ORIGINAL: janine

Well, tell me this, since engines are basically air pumps, if a stock 281 2V makes 230 rwhp, and the same engine putting out 10 - 12 psi makes 430 rwhp, how many more cubic inches would it take for that engine to make 430 rwhp normally asperated?

If a 281 ci engine makes 230 HP, that means it makes one HP per 1.22 cubic inch. Given that formular, to make another 200 hp, you would have to
multiply 1.22 x 430 (target HP) = 524ci.

How many pounds is a 524 ci engine and how many pounds is a 281 ci engine with an additional 80 or so pounds?

I think the blown small block beats out the big block head and shoulders.

Any arguments?

Janine

Wow....this is truly amazing.

Let's make this simple. Turn on your TV. Search for drag racing. Check out the top fuel stuff. Find out what motors they run. Period.

I mean hell Janine, even your fully built 281 ci motor with a supercharger, makes 70rwhp less than my stock headed/cam only/125hp DRY shot 346 ci motor. Granted, engineering plays a HUGE role in our two cars, but generally, the larger motor is gonna make more power with equal mods. Typically, A LOT more power.

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ORIGINAL: Pewterwssicc

Actually Janine the argument wasnt against older big blocks. What i think Birdie meant when he said big block was our small block LS1. He just doesnt know enough about cars to know that its a small block in the F-bodies, Vettes, and GTO's. We discussed this in length and the plain and simple fact is that more Cubes ultimately have a greater capability than less cubes, its a fact, not contestable. The other major point was on which is lighter and again the small block LS1, LS2, LS6, and LS7 are all lighter than the 4V 4.6.

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ORIGINAL: 2000GT4.6

Build quality is what killed the F bodys. Even my buddies with like 30K on it rattles and shakes. Honestly, the mustang build qualty and fit and finish are not that great compared to alot of cars in the price range, but its worlds above the Fbody cars.

The sales were slumping, and GM killed the car. They should have just done a redesign and come out with a more comfortable/better looking/better quailty car and sold the hell out of them again.