Well I made a newbie mistake when I purchased my Mustang a month ago. I took the owners word that it was originally a 66 C code coupe. The interior was a 66, the door plate said it was a 66, the door plate said it was a C-code, and the title said it was a 66 C-code and matched the VIN in the door.

I didn't know at the time I purchased the car that there was also a VIN on the drivers side engine compartment. It was really covered up deep with paint of whiched looked 20-30yrs old.

I finally got around to getting the paint off of the engine compartment VIN with a wire brush and sure enough it says the car is a 65 T-code.

It really threw me for a loop, because all of the suspension was for a V8 along with the fenders having the holes in the front of them for a 289 emblem. Plus the interior gauges are from a 66.

Are there any other places to look for the VIN, besides the door plate and drivers side engine compartment? Are there any more tale-tale signs that I can look for to confirm if this was really a t-code or c-code?

Also, legally, when I get ready to sale this in several years, what can I sale it as?

It ticks me off to think that I probably have an orginal t-code car, but I'm not really that discouraged. I will continue to push on in my efforts to restore the vehicle!

Thanks,
Kris

I know the'67 had it stamped into the sheet metal under the drivers fender, must remove the fender to see it.

you'd have to get the oppinions of the other members but i do know you can have another buck tag made up by someone. but the vin is the vin. you can check the engine for casting numbers and decipher them using the links in the FAQ's page maybe that would help but you still run the chance of the motor being replaced. good luck with everything, hope all works out for you!

if you dont mind me askin a newbie question what is the diffrence betweent a t and a c code car and how do i find out which one i have?

Shoot. By the sounds of it....... The car is a 66 C code. it's possible that the apron was replaced with another one. I remember hearing that Ford even made mistakes with the Apron vin numbers....if i remember correctly.

Well, I knew when I purchased the car that the engine was not original, because it was a 302 and not a 289.

Should I even be worried about this since the engine is now a 302 and not even original any way?

Basically, I'm just wondering if I fully restore the car with the existing 302, are people going to frown upon it because it was originally a t-code car and not an original V8?

t-code = 6 cylinder
c-code = 8 cylinder

yeah, that is quite possible too.

I hope that is the case. Is the VIN on the front apron part of the fender or is it more of the inner-structure of the engine compartment?


ORIGINAL: 6mustang6

Shoot. By the sounds of it....... The car is a 66 C code. it's possible that the apron was replaced with another one. I remember hearing that Ford even made mistakes with the Apron vin numbers....if i remember correctly.

ORIGINAL: wil33562

Well, I knew when I purchased the car that the engine was not original, because it was a 302 and not a 289.

Should I even be worried about this since the engine is now a 302 and not even original any way?

Basically, I'm just wondering if I fully restore the car with the existing 302, are people going to frown upon it because it was originally a t-code car and not an original V8?

t-code = 6 cylinder
c-code = 8 cylinder


well, just the fact that the motor has been changed to a 302 makes it no longer "numbers matching". the more important thing is, do you care what people think of YOUR car? are you restoring this to sell or for your own use? personally, i believe it's your car, if you want to paint it bright pink and put little flowers all over it, go for it! who's to tell you you can't. everyone has different tastes. now, if you want to resto it and make a few beans selling it, it would pay off to get everything to match up. and relplace the mismatched tag!

Well, you see where it is right? That is the apron. They have to be cut off... i believe to be changed. It's very possible, that the car was in a wreck, and the apron was replaced with a junkyard apron. I know my car was wrecked, because my driver side apron looks screwed up, but thank god, they didn't replace it, just fixed it alittle bit. I really wouldn't worry. I dont think somebody would go through so much trouble replacing everything to make it a 66. It doesn't make sense.

Well, hopefully, I will never have to sale this car once I get it all fixed up. But I want to make myself aware that the possibily is always there to sale it.

I just don't want to invest 15k or more in this car and then have people come back and only want to give me 3-4k since it could be a t-code. Maybe people don't frown upon that to much!

Your right, it is my car to do as I please and I'm happy with it!

THanks,
Kris

ORIGINAL: 6mustang6

Well, you see where it is right? That is the apron. They have to be cut off... i believe to be changed. It's very possible, that the car was in a wreck, and the apron was replaced with a junkyard apron. I know my car was wrecked, because my driver side apron looks screwed up, but thank god, they didn't replace it, just fixed it alittle bit. I really wouldn't worry. I dont think somebody would go through so much trouble replacing everything to make it a 66. It doesn't make sense.



I wouldn't think someone would go through that much trouble either. What are all of the differences between a 65 and 66?

Thanks,
Kris

If I remember right there is a VIN stamped on the apron under the passenger fender. You have to take the fender off to see it. You might be able to see it from the wheel well but you would have to read it backwards. There is a good chance the apron was replaced with a used one. The problem is the door tag VIN is not a legal VIN. It even says "not for title or registration" on the tag. A good body man would be able to tell if the apron was replaced.

A 65 grille is a black honey comb grille. it has little squares, while the 66 has vertical chrome lines. the 65 grille has grille bars, while the 66 doesn't. The caps on a 65 have a black insert in the middle, while the 66's are all metal, with an embelm. On the side of a 66, the side chrome behind the door has 3 fingers extending from it, while the 65 does not. You already mentioned the guage cluster..... There aren't too many more differences. oh, and 66's all had padded sun visors

ORIGINAL: 67t5ponycoupe

If I remember right there is a VIN stamped on the apron under the passenger fender. You have to take the fender off to see it. You might be able to see it from the wheel well but you would have to read it backwards. There is a good chance the apron was replaced with a used one. The problem is the door tag VIN is not a legal VIN. It even says "not for title or registration" on the tag. A good body man would be able to tell if the apron was replaced.



yup. that's where it is. it's very possible it was replaced. i am begining to believe mine was too cause i really can't see the numbers from the top or bottom.

Does the paperwork say it is a T or a C code? The door tag and the inner fender could have been changed.

All paper work that I have on it, including a clear title says the car is a 66 C-code.

It's a 66 C-code. Since everything else says it is. There is no way, that is a 65 T-code. Why dont you post some pics of it, front, sides, back, engine, and interior.

The problem is not just when you sell either. Most states require a VIN verification if you move to another state.

66 Grille = check
66 Guage cluster = check
padded sun visor = check
chrome behind door = 65
caps = not really sure what those are??

Here are some pics the day it was brought home: I'll try to get some new pics tomorrow.


ORIGINAL: 6mustang6

A 65 grille is a black honey comb grille. it has little squares, while the 66 has vertical chrome lines. the 65 grille has grille bars, while the 66 doesn't. The caps on a 65 have a black insert in the middle, while the 66's are all metal, with an embelm. On the side of a 66, the side chrome behind the door has 3 fingers extending from it, while the 65 does not. You already mentioned the guage cluster..... There aren't too many more differences. oh, and 66's all had padded sun visors





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local://upfiles/35640/2E6B9DD969FF41B59C1B1BC171D49918.jpg

Dooh! It has 65 quarter panel chrome on it!!

I've already gone to the DMV and turned in the Bill of Sale and the title that I received from the seller, which was 13 yrs old.
All went fine at the DMV and just last week I received a newly issued title with my name on it. Still showing it is a 66 C-code.

ORIGINAL: 67t5ponycoupe

The problem is not just when you sell either. Most states require a VIN verification if you move to another state.

In most states, the title VIN is what they go by. Parts for 64-66 were interchangable, so you can't go by any of those part numbers.

ok, The grille is a 65, the gas cap is a 65, and the side chrome is a 65. Most of the stuff is for a 65, except for the gauge cluster..... ut oh. Something is very screwy.

ORIGINAL: 67t5ponycoupe

If I remember right there is a VIN stamped on the apron under the passenger fender. You have to take the fender off to see it. You might be able to see it from the wheel well but you would have to read it backwards. There is a good chance the apron was replaced with a used one. The problem is the door tag VIN is not a legal VIN. It even says "not for title or registration" on the tag. A good body man would be able to tell if the apron was replaced.


Do you know where the location is under the passenger side?

I just looked under mine, but there was so much crud caked on that I don't know where to begin scraping it off to find it.

Thanks,
Kris

ORIGINAL: 6mustang6

ok, The grille is a 65, the gas cap is a 65, and the side chrome is a 65. Most of the stuff is for a 65, except for the gauge cluster..... ut oh. Something is very screwy.


I thought the grille was a 66.

I looked up a picture of a 65 and it was more honeycomb shaped.

Idk, I hear you have to remove the fender to see it. Then again, the fender could have been replaced too.I've been thinking. Most of the stuff on the car is 65 stuff. Except for the guage cluster. It'll be hard to find out, since the parts are interchangeble, like Soaring said.

Here are two pics of different grilles:

I think the first is a 65, because it has the honeycomb shapes.
The second, I beleive is a 66 which is the one that I have.

Please correct me if Im wrong.

local://upfiles/35640/EDFD0D1DC1CC4E789B2BB2E69E6501B3.jpg

local://upfiles/35640/61F6C2B3CDA64358937FF25795DD721F.jpg

maybe it's just me, but i think someone stole your pony!

Oh, you know. you are right. If that picture of your car, it didn't quite look like one, but it is. Sorry. WE still have to wonder about the side trim, and gas cap. Also, where is your horse and corral for your grille?

ORIGINAL: 6mustang6

ok, The grille is a 65, the gas cap is a 65, and the side chrome is a 65. Most of the stuff is for a 65, except for the gauge cluster..... ut oh. Something is very screwy.

Do we have a photo of the gauge cluster? From memory aren't the 65 GT and Pony gauge clusters the same as 66 ones? the only difference being the "eyebrow" chrome at the top of the cluster?

yes, The 65 GT clusters were the same as 66s, but that car isn't a GT. I dont think that they installed the 5 guage clusters with pony interior, but i could be wrong.

I think the passenger side VIN is under the fender just aft of the shock tower. If someone has their fender pulled off now they could tell you for sure.

ORIGINAL: Clu7ch

maybe it's just me, but i think someone stole your pony!


The Pony wasn't on it when I purchased it. However, I got a used one from eBay.

Also, I'll take several pictures tomorrow of the gauges and anything else that is requested.

ORIGINAL: 67t5ponycoupe

I think the passenger side VIN is under the fender just aft of the shock tower. If someone has their fender pulled off now they could tell you for sure.


if i remember correctly, it's on the drivers side under the fender. you should see a notch cut out of the fender. it will either be where the notch is, or just under under (past) the fender lip where the notch is. just look on eother side for a notch about 2-3 inches long and it should be there.

Pass side won't have a notch.

than it's the drivers side.

Clucth, Are you talking about the one that is on top of the fender? because he is talking about the one under the fender? So there's a notch under the fender and you can see the vin without taking it off?

i'm not 100% sure, but i believe it should be there where the notch is. you may not have to remove the fender or it may be under the fender as stated. i cannot locate mine on my 66 for whatever reason, be it it was painted over or the piece was replaced. if i remember what Glen told me correctly, it should be there under the lip of the fender on the drivers side where the notch is.

Are you sure he was't talking about the one on top in plain view? If not, i want to go look at mine in the morning.:) but it should be the same as the other ones.... I HOPE

like i said, i'm not completely sure. mine doesn't have it there and everything has been painted over. reason why i'm not worried about throwing whatever i feel like in. all i know is i was told it was on the fender but not the fedner itself, the apron piece the fender blots into. weather or not it's in plain sight i don't know.

I just took some more pics. First are some interior pics:
66 gauges and console:


local://upfiles/35640/E60CC360D35941E1B13D2BDE85D807A5.jpg

local://upfiles/35640/8A767F9DDC0849D1804FB914180744CE.jpg

Now for the almost undeniable pics that my car is probably a 65 t-code[sm=boohoo.gif]

The VIN on the drivers side apron matches the hidden VIN on the passengers side apron:


local://upfiles/35640/A0FA693477D8433A8ECAC28AE9F985A4.jpg

local://upfiles/35640/C26DB1C067724DC4AD5F3D8821F835FB.jpg

I really don't know where to go from here. SHould I be happy, mad, sad, etc!

I have a car that according to the title which matches the door plate is a clean and clear 66 c-code coupe.
However, the legal VIN's on the front say it is a 65 t-code.

All of the suspension such as the springs, drums, rear end is a V8 suspension.
The front fenders have the holes where a 289 emblem would go.
The interior has the 66 visors and the 66 guages.
The grille is a 66.
The gas cap is a 65.
The moldings behind the doors are a 65.

The current motor in it is by far not original. It is a 302.

So to me, it looks like some PO took a lot of time to make the car look like a 66 c-code. I really don't know what has happened with it, because legally from a title standpoint I have a 66 -C. But legally by the legal VINs on the car I have a 65 -T.

that is also a 66 dash pad, if im not mistaken. It's possible, the whole front clip was replaced.............

Are there any other places to check for a VIN other than the door plate, left front apron, and right front apron?

What I'm most worried about is if this car could have been stolen and some how retitled with just the door plate.

The person I bought the car from was an older man in his mid-late 60's and had owned the car since 1993. He said he hadn't done much with the car except rebuild the 302 just several months before I purchased it from him.

i think that is all to look for involving the vin. Maybe you can track the car back somehow.........

Its a C code 66. The title is the title. Door or fender indications can be changed. There is no formal (legal) VIN marker on 65-66. The fact that the apron was swapped a dozen or more years ago will effect the value of the car. Not so much because of originality issues (not on a common standard 65-66 coupe), but because it indicates major collision damage in the past.

IS the title original???? or is that a stupid question? i have never dealt with titles yet.

ORIGINAL: 6mustang6

IS the title original???? or is that a stupid question? i have never dealt with titles yet.


The title that I received when I purchased the vehicle was a bonafied clear/clean Arkansas State issued title in 1993 to the PO. After I purchased the car I took his title along with the bill of sale to my local DMV to register, transfer the title, and tag. Last week I received my State of Arkansas issued clear title.

I'm pretty sure when you register a vehicle and transfer a title that the DMV runs a check to make sure the vehicle is not stolen. Of course they run that on the VIN that was on the previous title. They don't actually come out to your car and visually look at the apron VIN.

So that means it can still be a 65 T-code then. We know it was changed before 93.

ORIGINAL: 6mustang6

So that means it can still be a 65 T-code then. We know it was changed before 93.


Yep! That's what I'm thinking. It was definately done prior to 93.

I just can't imagine why someone would go through all of the trouble changing the interior gauges, visors, and possibly dash pad along with the grille and fenders to make it appear to be a 66. And then not go through and put 66 side moldings and a 66 gas cap on it.

I would say because of the quarter chrome and the 65 T code the car started life as a 65. If the aprons had been changed there will be evidence of that. In 71 my dad bought a 67 mustang for my mom. He was told the car had been wrecked and it was easy to spot because it had a 68 front clip on it. The problem was that they had also changed the front aprons and radiator support. That was the car I was going to restore until I started looking at how bad the rust was. I decided to start with a different car for my project and scrap the original car. When tearing it apart is when I noticed that both front VIN's were from the 68 and the title and door tag were from the original 67. The clenched it for me. I knew that I was not going to put all that money in a car and go to the trouble to fix all the rust if the title didn't match the VIN. It hurt to scrap a car that I had learned to drive on that had been in the family so long but I had to do it.

The Chassis I bought to start my project was also a 67. The owner had lost the title so to get a new one I had to get the VIN verified. I had to pay them to come to the house because the car didn't run. I specifically asked about the door tag VIN and they said they will never use that for verification because it is not permanently attached to the chassis. The only VIN they will use is on the apron. I'm not sure how this affects your situation but I thought you might want to know what I have learned through first had experience. I also transferred title on a 59 Ford Truck from California to Colorado. I had to have the VIN verified to get that done also. I really believe that car is a 65 but to confirm this you might take it to a good mustang shop and see if they can confirm that.

just think of it this way, when you get it insured, tell them its a t-code inline 6:D

that might get you in trouble honestly though.

ORIGINAL: atomsk680

just think of it this way, when you get it insured, tell them its a t-code inline 6:D

that might get you in trouble honestly though.


yeah, but you can have it done up just about anyway. if you can convince the DMV it is a t-code and had a I6 in it, than they will make you up a title (for a cost, of course) and you will be able to register it as a t-code.

ORIGINAL: Clu7ch


ORIGINAL: atomsk680

just think of it this way, when you get it insured, tell them its a t-code inline 6:D

that might get you in trouble honestly though.


yeah, but you can have it done up just about anyway. if you can convince the DMV it is a t-code and had a I6 in it, than they will make you up a title (for a cost, of course) and you will be able to register it as a t-code.


yea i know, but it would probably be a little bit cheaper then a v8. to my knowledge, my insurance ONLY knows i hav a v8, and not a 351c. i shouldve said i had a t-code 6cyl *with 2 extra cylinders* :D

well, the other downfall is, just the fact that it is a mustang regular insurance will put it into a sports car catagory. i had a 86 and 89 4 banger mustang and each one my insurance was garbage solely for the fact that it was a mustang. it's kinda beat, but being that it was a 4 cyl instead of a V8 helpoed tho.



sorry for horrible spelling i';m a little buzzed.

ORIGINAL: wil33562

...They don't actually come out to your car and visually look at the apron VIN.


As I said before, there is no legal VIN indicator on 65-66, so noone is going to be interested in the numbers on the apron! The door and apron VINs were a serial number used by Ford for production control and warranty validation. Federal mandated VIN tags located just below the windshield came in 67 or 68.

The obvious question is does the VIN number on your title match any of those on the car? I'm betting it matches the one on the door. Doesn't this suggest that the this was the original VIN?

ORIGINAL: degins


ORIGINAL: wil33562

...They don't actually come out to your car and visually look at the apron VIN.


As I said before, there is no legal VIN indicator on 65-66, so noone is going to be interested in the numbers on the apron! The door and apron VINs were a serial number used by Ford for production control and warranty validation. Federal mandated VIN tags located just below the windshield came in 67 or 68.

The obvious question is does the VIN number on your title match any of those on the car? I'm betting it matches the one on the door. Doesn't this suggest that the this was the original VIN?



Yes, the VIN on the title matches the VIN in the door plate.

One question about the guage cluster: If you had a 65 dash and wanted to put a 66 guage cluster in, didn't you have to modify or cut the openings for the guage cluster for it to fit right?

If so, I will take out the guage cluster this weekend and see if it has been modified.

If you take out the gauge cluster, look for a notched out/rounded out area above the steering column to accomodate the speedo part of the cluster. A '65 non-GT won't have it.

Degins you are so wrong about the legal VIN thing. The legal VIN on a 65-67 in on the apron. I'm sure it varies some from state to state but the apron VIN is used for title and registration. Read back in the post about my experience with this very subject. I'm not making this up.

I saw on a Mustang show a few years ago a guy mentioned that if you see a "T" code on the fender apron, it may or may not match the data plate engine code. All other numbers should match. I have a '66 with the same problem. HOwever, my number matches perfectly EXCEPT for the engine code of "C" vs. "T".

If you think about it, why would someone forge a "C" code...why wouldn't they just go straight for the "A" or "K" and say it was a GT? If your production numbers match on both data plate & fender apron, then you've got an original "C" code. If the numbers don't match at all, then your apron was likely replaced after a bad collission. HOpe that helps.

BTW: I'm looking for back-up of this factoid if anyone knows a book, etc. that would reflect it. I'm selling my car & I'm sure it's going to come up with a prospective buyer.

ORIGINAL: 6mustang6

Most of the stuff is for a 65, except for the gauge cluster.....

How can you tell the 5-instrument gauge cluster is for a 66? The same cluster was an option on 65 Mustangs.

Kris..maybe my coment will look far-out but remember that assembly workers were well known to make mistakes specialy on the last hours of the Fridays shifts

The VIN thats located on the passenger side is under the fender, almost just like the one on the drivers side except its closer to the firewall panel, I'd guess about 7-12 inches off the firewall side of the fender, and its just an inch under the fender, but still on the apron, like the drivers side. --OK not sure if i got that out all right.

Look closely for anything like numbers or letters, then wirewheel it. you will find the other VIN, but that still doesnt mean thats the true VIN. --- I agree with above --It certainly does look like a 65 --I have one.

Good luck and dont worry ---its registered and its yours (for now at least).

^^ oops above -- i didnt see that there were 3 pages of posts, i just read the first page where we were still talking about the VIN locations.