Does anyone have any documentation on WHP for different CAI'S I have a mac and I am not happy with it I have a slight bog on takeoff and parkway entrance form a roll. I was either thinking about the Demolet or the C & L. Any response would be helpful.
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2005 Windveil Blue, Mac Cai, Xcal 2, JBA Axleback 373's and T-Lok
no docs but I have a one from S&b that is a molded plastic tube. I am not happy with it because it does not seal off the hot air from the engine compartment and the tube itself gets really hot, probally ruining any gain. It cost 200 so I got what I paid for.
Whats your favorite type of pizza? jk...but people that have cai will typically lean towards the one they own. The c&l cai is supposed to be one of the best though.
Actually they are not all created equal. For example, the AEM was dyno'd to show no gain over the stock airbox. I put up a post with a link to Justins dyno of all of them. I will see if I can find it.
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Best 1/4: 10.97@122.09, 1.56 60ft w/4.0 V6 Best 1/4: 11.67@115.45, 1.64 60ft w/5.4 3V Best 1/8: 7.401@92.77, 1.65 60ft w/5.4 3V www.rygen.net/stang
i would ask lx200 he seams to have all the answers regarding CAI's and tuners. i had the AFE till the sc install and was happy with it. the tuners is a must no matter what CAI you have.
i would ask lx200 he seams to have all the answers regarding CAI's and tuners. i had the AFE till the sc install and was happy with it. the tuners is a must no matter what CAI you have.
I had the AFE before I got a dyno tune and was happy with it as well. Actually, LX200 and a bunch of us sorted out our differences in another thread, I think it is all good now. No name calling or anything, just good constructive debate. See what happens when you build a new house Tom, you miss out on all the internet fun! ROFL.
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Best 1/4: 10.97@122.09, 1.56 60ft w/4.0 V6 Best 1/4: 11.67@115.45, 1.64 60ft w/5.4 3V Best 1/8: 7.401@92.77, 1.65 60ft w/5.4 3V www.rygen.net/stang
One question I have always wondered is this.... how much of the gain from a CAI comes form the fact that the air is marginally cooler, and how much comes from the fact that the large pleated filter has much greater surface area, and therefore much lower pressure drop, so more air can flow into the engine while the intake valve is open.... Both temperature and massflow make a difference, and it seems temperature would really be a small difference...
if you compare how many air molecules are in air at one temp vs. another, you have to use a themodynamic temperature scale like Rankine. So if the air under the hood was normally 110 degrees, but the cold air unit delivered it at 15 degrees cooler, then the gain in air molecules would be
In Rankine, 110 F = 570 and 95 F = 555, so, you would expect 570/555 increase in O2 molecules or a 2.7% increase in O2 molecules. Dunno... this can't be it, right? Even if the CAI causes a 30 degree drop, you are looking at a 5.5% increase. If all those molecules were completely turned into a HP advantage, you would expect an increase of about 5 HP at 15 degree advantage, and 10 HP at 30 degrees advantage, at the flywheel.
ANYBODY know how much these units ACTUALLY cut the temperature??? Especially the C&L which has a metal duct running to the throttle body... I imagine this must work well as a heat exchanger!
i would ask lx200 he seams to have all the answers regarding CAI's and tuners. i had the AFE till the sc install and was happy with it. the tuners is a must no matter what CAI you have.
Afixer... sorry for being a dick to you. I apologize. I will try to be a good boy, but... I have temper issues..... I will try to remember to take my medicine!!
Posts: 753
Joined: 3/16/2006 From: Rancho Cucamonga, CA Status: offline
I read in MM that calling them CAI's is actually misleading because the temperature of the air is basically the same as that under the hood. Most of the gain comes from the increased air from the filter and the way the tube is machined. 12-15 RWHP if I recall.
One question I have always wondered is this.... how much of the gain from a CAI comes form the fact that the air is marginally cooler, and how much comes from the fact that the large pleated filter has much greater surface area, and therefore much lower pressure drop, so more air can flow into the engine while the intake valve is open.... Both temperature and massflow make a difference, and it seems temperature would really be a small difference...
if you compare how many air molecules are in air at one temp vs. another, you have to use a themodynamic temperature scale like Rankine. So if the air under the hood was normally 110 degrees, but the cold air unit delivered it at 15 degrees cooler, then the gain in air molecules would be
In Rankine, 110 F = 570 and 95 F = 555, so, you would expect 570/555 increase in O2 molecules or a 2.7% increase in O2 molecules. Dunno... this can't be it, right? Even if the CAI causes a 30 degree drop, you are looking at a 5.5% increase. If all those molecules were completely turned into a HP advantage, you would expect an increase of about 5 HP at 15 degree advantage, and 10 HP at 30 degrees advantage, at the flywheel.
ANYBODY know how much these units ACTUALLY cut the temperature??? Especially the C&L which has a metal duct running to the throttle body... I imagine this must work well as a heat exchanger!
This ties into a conversation I had with John Demolet (TI) over the phone, where he said the TI does well because it does not conduct heat as much as the metal based units.
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Best 1/4: 10.97@122.09, 1.56 60ft w/4.0 V6 Best 1/4: 11.67@115.45, 1.64 60ft w/5.4 3V Best 1/8: 7.401@92.77, 1.65 60ft w/5.4 3V www.rygen.net/stang
I read in MM that calling them CAI's is actually misleading because the temperature of the air is basically the same as that under the hood. Most of the gain comes from the increased air from the filter and the way the tube is machined. 12-15 RWHP if I recall.
Yep, the term CAI is used now in generalisations. What we have are air intake kits. Cold air intake kits are those that draw air from the outside.
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Best 1/4: 10.97@122.09, 1.56 60ft w/4.0 V6 Best 1/4: 11.67@115.45, 1.64 60ft w/5.4 3V Best 1/8: 7.401@92.77, 1.65 60ft w/5.4 3V www.rygen.net/stang
Well, there is an idea... lets work it backwards. Let's suppose a stock V6 delivers 165 HP to the wheels, and a CAI adds 15 HP to this. This is an increase of 9%. So, from my previous calc, this would probably take about 30 degrees of air cooling vs. what's floating under the hood.
The reason I keep thinking it's NOT the filter and it's ability to pass flow is that fact that I have seen several articles that talk about the minute difference in pressure drop between the various filters. Here is one guy with too much time on his hands
His tests show that even bad filters cause very little pressure drop vs. NO FILTER AT ALL... so our C&L filters can't be better than no filter... if his tests are true, and we are looking at only a very marginal gain in air flow, then it must be from temperature gain. Again, we're back to the age old problem of testing in controlled situation. You would need to take reading of the air coming from your stock airbox, and the air under the hood, then compare to CAI, with same ambient conditions and same hood temp (or at least a close approximation). Anybody here going to do that? Ugh.
Does anybody have MAF sensor hard data to help us out here?
I read in MM that calling them CAI's is actually misleading because the temperature of the air is basically the same as that under the hood. Most of the gain comes from the increased air from the filter and the way the tube is machined. 12-15 RWHP if I recall.
Yep, the term CAI is used now in generalisations. What we have are air intake kits. Cold air intake kits are those that draw air from the outside.
Dunno... if they can isolate the air filter up in the front, and air can flow in directly from under the wheel well, it is going to be somewhat cooler, right? Here is a novel question.... anybody have a clue how much hotter the temperature is under the hood??
I think there is one more thing that could be happening here... if a fair amount of air flow moves up into the CAI area and is trapped in the box (well, not really trapped, but slowed WAY DOWN) then there would be a static head built up there, resulting in higher pressure and therefore more air flow. Same concept as a ramjet... just on a smaller scale.
ok, here is the deal.....your temperature analysis, well.....not right. Rankine is the same units as Farenheight, as so say that one degree change in Rankine is the same as one degree change in degrees F, even though the Rankine numbers are much higher, but that is becuase they are measured with a different scale. To put it in simple terms, the work of your engine is based the first law of thermodynamics. It simply states that the Work = (mass flow of air) * (thermal capcity of air) (change in temperature of the air).
This could be a very long drawn out calculation if you wanted it to be, but for simple purposes, we will assume that the change in temperature of the air is constant, so the only variable we have is the mass flow rate of air......which is simply the density of air times the volumetric flow rate, or CFM. I don't know what the CFM of our engines are, so lets assume 100 CFM @ 250 degrees F due to the temperaure under the hood. That would give a mass flow rate of 335 lbs/hr. Now, if you took that same 100 CFM and it was only 200 degrees F, the mass flow rate would be 516. To find out the actual hp's for the difference in numbers, you would then multiply each times .24*change in temp of air/2544. Then you could see the difference.
Now we can look at the change in CFM. like above 100 CFM @ 250 degrees is 335 lbs/hr and 125 CFM @ 250 CFM would be 419 lbs/hr. Then you would do the same above.
There are to many unknown numbers to do a rational calculation, but i bet we can assume the temp under the hood with the current design of CAI isn't but a few degrees different. that little heat shield doesn't do crap, and I hope all of you can see that. So lets now look at 100 CFM at 245 degrees F. That gives us a mass flow rate of 336.5. So you get 1.5 lbs/hr more.....which when you divide that by the 2544 and multiply by the .24, gets very very very small and translates into zero horsepower.
In conclusion, with the CAI designs like most people are using, the increase in hp comes from the increase in air flow. If you tune your car to keep from running to lean, then you just kept the change in temperature variable even more constant, so this analysis is probably more applicable.
In cars without a tune, there is a seperate step, where you actually get a decrease in the change in air temp. variable due to the incrased air flow, which counters some of the effects of the increased mass air flow....
that is why getting a tuner is benificial along with a good intake that lets a lot more air in.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LX200
One question I have always wondered is this.... how much of the gain from a CAI comes form the fact that the air is marginally cooler, and how much comes from the fact that the large pleated filter has much greater surface area, and therefore much lower pressure drop, so more air can flow into the engine while the intake valve is open.... Both temperature and massflow make a difference, and it seems temperature would really be a small difference...
if you compare how many air molecules are in air at one temp vs. another, you have to use a themodynamic temperature scale like Rankine. So if the air under the hood was normally 110 degrees, but the cold air unit delivered it at 15 degrees cooler, then the gain in air molecules would be
In Rankine, 110 F = 570 and 95 F = 555, so, you would expect 570/555 increase in O2 molecules or a 2.7% increase in O2 molecules. Dunno... this can't be it, right? Even if the CAI causes a 30 degree drop, you are looking at a 5.5% increase. If all those molecules were completely turned into a HP advantage, you would expect an increase of about 5 HP at 15 degree advantage, and 10 HP at 30 degrees advantage, at the flywheel.
ANYBODY know how much these units ACTUALLY cut the temperature??? Especially the C&L which has a metal duct running to the throttle body... I imagine this must work well as a heat exchanger!
i would ask lx200 he seams to have all the answers regarding CAI's and tuners. i had the AFE till the sc install and was happy with it. the tuners is a must no matter what CAI you have.
Afixer... sorry for being a dick to you. I apologize. I will try to be a good boy, but... I have temper issues..... I will try to remember to take my medicine!!
lx dont worrie about it. we are all dicks at one time or another. i am no dif than you or anyone else here. some like to for some reason look up to me or whatever. but i'm just a regular guy who fell in love with the new style stang. so i got one, then i got the mod bug. i do have some advantages do to the type of work i do i have fabricating skills (welding and fiberglassing) and a good grasp on electronics and hydrolics. this coupled with my connection at ford and the ability to look up tsb's and service docs, but at the end of the day im still the regular guy. yea i helped beaustang install his shifter but hey i was not doing anything so what the heck. i have belonged to this forum for a long time and have seen many come and go. i belive that there is no such thing as a stupid question! trust me if i did i would have left months ago. do you know how many times i have seen "what is the best CAI. anyway i thought we were ok weeks ago untill your little outburst the other day. dude just chill and we will be just fine. we are all brothers and sisters here. i love these forums i have learned alot from them regarding my car and have tried to return the favor anytime i can.
Peace
also like todd said CAI doesnt really mean CAI its like ordering a coke and getting a pepsi, it has just evolved into the norm to say CAI. as far as the metal tubes go they are like big heat sinks if you ask me.
in theory you have a point about the cooler air, but you are forgetting that that air is also mixing with air at whatever temp. is under the hood, so you have a (t1)*x/(x+y) + (t2)*y/(x+y) that gets you a different entering air temperature than ambient.
The pressure before the filter you are talking about would be a few inches of water gauge at the most, which is hardly nothing, so it might help, but I would think not enough to do anything.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LX200
quote:
ORIGINAL: rygenstormlocke
quote:
ORIGINAL: pat6674u
I read in MM that calling them CAI's is actually misleading because the temperature of the air is basically the same as that under the hood. Most of the gain comes from the increased air from the filter and the way the tube is machined. 12-15 RWHP if I recall.
Yep, the term CAI is used now in generalisations. What we have are air intake kits. Cold air intake kits are those that draw air from the outside.
Dunno... if they can isolate the air filter up in the front, and air can flow in directly from under the wheel well, it is going to be somewhat cooler, right? Here is a novel question.... anybody have a clue how much hotter the temperature is under the hood??
I think there is one more thing that could be happening here... if a fair amount of air flow moves up into the CAI area and is trapped in the box (well, not really trapped, but slowed WAY DOWN) then there would be a static head built up there, resulting in higher pressure and therefore more air flow. Same concept as a ramjet... just on a smaller scale.
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