Posts: 3481
Joined: 5/21/2005 From: S.burbs Chicago Status: offline
quote:
ORIGINAL: F1Fan
Hey bcc333,
Like I said:
A) drugs B) dreaming C) drugs
Not that there's anything wrong with it.
Cheers
Where is your proof? And why come off as an arse? I have read that a 3 point strut tower brace(strut firewall strut) is a waste of the extra money, but with the S197's but the typical strut to strut one is worth it.
< Message edited by Stoenr -- 5/9/2006 9:00:25 PM >
unfortunately they have really gone up (chrome $95) in price .
Regardless of any measurements on the frame, my steering is tighter. particularly during hi speed lane changes (75-85 mph) on expressway. I agee paying more than $99 for a 3 point is probably a questionable use of money. but having driven with it, I would pay $47.82 in a heartbeat.
mongrull006, I went to CompUSA -- they were having a sale on the 0's but i had to pay regular price for the 1's.
I can't believe I wasted all that money on tint...I could have saved alot of dough and had better heat by just putting aluminum foil in the windows. Shiny side up!
All joking aside, I'm glad you installed that backwards and brought it to everyone's attention, because I would have done the exact same thing I'm sure if I did this mod in the future and you have saved me from looking stupid.
I'm sure I'll find something else to look stupid about.
_____________________________
'06 Tungston Gray GT Manual w/ Premium IUP Steeda 90mm CAI w/ 91 octane Brenspeed xcal2 Borla Stingers AB exhaust
Try covering the strut tower brace with aluminum foil and then attach the radio antennae lead to it. Just may be the ultimate antennae delete. Patent rights are mine though lol.
I am curious as too how you measure chassis flex while you are driving. Did you put a midget under the hood to take these measurements? But, that being said, I had a steeda brace for a week that a friend in the club was selling. I did not buy it because i could not tell a difference. However I do not road race and do not have any input as to weather or not hard G's would make a difference.
It could be done with a linear position sensor such as an LVDT or linear potentiometer, connected between the opposite strut towers. That would require some custom mounting brackets to be made. Then you'd need a laptop computer and the appropriate data aquisition hardware to take the displacement measurements while you drove around.
This hardware would cost about $1500 in addition to the laptop. (I work in a mechanical testing lab...this is what I'd do if this job came to my lab) If anyone wants to try to do this, I'll be happy to suggest the hardware to use and I'll even tell ya how to hook it up. But I'm not going to drop a grand or more to answer the question.
Personally, I don't think the strut tower brace would be useful on this car. The FR500C doesn't have one. I'd think that if the strut tower brace really was worthwhile, then the FR500C would have one. (unless the rules specifically forbid such a thing, which I doubt)
_____________________________
Black 2006 GT Coupe Dynatech LT headers & X; Borla catback C&L CAI; 93 oct tune Full BMR, Spohn & Steeda suspension D-Specs; Alum driveshaft Second Skin Audio damping; Infinity spkrs; Goodyear Eagle F1 255F/295R - FR500 wheels
While I dont think they do much of anything on the street, strut tower braces have proven their worth on the track with BMW's and porsches, etc. While the new mustang is very stiff, I am not convinced it is any stiffer than lets say and M3. And that car has a strut tower brace.
Also, the new GT500 has one according to some recent photos I have seen. In older shots it was absent.
With that said, I may add one in the future for looks and the slight, minute performance gain, and to not have to hear people bitch and moan whenever I open my hood and they question why one is not there.
I am looking into the strange development bar. Seems like a nice simple, lightweight, clean factory looking part without looking like a 16 year old with a welder and some tubing was set loose under the hood.
Some of the bars I have seen are really crappy. I mean the steeda one looks like they have never built a stress bar in their lives. The BMR is the biggest overkill in history, and adds alot of weight right where the car needs to be light. etc etc
While I dont think they do much of anything on the street, strut tower braces have proven their worth on the track with BMW's and porsches, etc. While the new mustang is very stiff, I am not convinced it is any stiffer than lets say and M3. And that car has a strut tower brace.
I don't think anyone doubts that on SOME CARS a strut tower brace is a good thing. Perhaps they are a great mod on BMW's. But the question is, is there any benefit to a strut brace on the S197 Mustang? There are a lot of variables that describe the "flex" or "stiffness" of a given car. A strut tower brace only helps one particular area of flex. If the S197 flexes between the towers...then the brace will help. If it doesn't, there's not much of a point (aside from looks, of course). Other kinds of body flex (present or not) are irrelevant to this particular issue.
I don't think this is going to be resolved unless someone actually takes the measurements and has some hard numbers to prove one way or the other what's going on.
_____________________________
Black 2006 GT Coupe Dynatech LT headers & X; Borla catback C&L CAI; 93 oct tune Full BMR, Spohn & Steeda suspension D-Specs; Alum driveshaft Second Skin Audio damping; Infinity spkrs; Goodyear Eagle F1 255F/295R - FR500 wheels
I learned this engineering trick from reading a book about Jim Hall (you know the guy behind the Chaparel Racing Team), and the intuative, extremely simple things he did to make his cars faster. Just as I would check the clearances between a new set of valve covers and high ratio rocker arms or bearing clearances I used the modeling clay/plastigauge method. In this method the clay or wittness material is placed in the areas where you need to know the clearance. The clay/material gets compressed and then you simply cut a section and/or measure the gauge material. When using clay with wire the movement of the wire and scrap aluminium is recored or wittnessed by the clay. So once the flexture ocurres there is a record retained by the clay of that movement. Simply measure the depth of the wittness marks in the caly and there you have it, any movement will be recorded for you. Using this method I added some imagination, a spool of fine wire between the strut tops, rad. support and fire wall. I also used scrap aluminum and clay. The only thing even a well designed un-triangulated strut tower brace can effectively do is maintain the distance between the strut towers, thats' it.
Almost none of the two bolt single bar braces can keep the towers from moving fore and aft or up and down. So I simply measured the amount of compression between the towers using the wire and clay method. Now that I've taught you how to do this type of measurement go ahead and try it out for yourself. You need no special tools to do this measurement, just common engineering sense.
This is how I know for a fact that there is no advantage to be gained by installing an un-triangulated, two-bolt strut tower tie bar. IMO by adding a couple of extra pounds up over the engine in front of the front axles all you are doing is wasting money, effort and mass in the wrong place and for what, looks?
Cheers
< Message edited by F1Fan -- 5/29/2006 3:30:48 PM >
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
See my simple clay and string method post. The only reason to get more precise quantification of the flex using electronic strain gauges as you mention is if you wanted to punch the numbers in to see what it would take to reduce the flex to acceptable levels. To simply measure or wittness any flex clay is simple, fast and gives you a ball park idea of what you are up against. There was so little movement recorded in the clay that I almost didn't see the marks. So IMO unless somebody builds a triangulated stress bar using all 4 strut bearing mount studs based on what movement I saw there will be nothing to be gained in cornering performance or steering feel.
Cheers
quote:
ORIGINAL: CrazyAl
Measuring flex would be doable.
It could be done with a linear position sensor such as an LVDT or linear potentiometer, connected between the opposite strut towers. That would require some custom mounting brackets to be made. Then you'd need a laptop computer and the appropriate data aquisition hardware to take the displacement measurements while you drove around.
This hardware would cost about $1500 in addition to the laptop. (I work in a mechanical testing lab...this is what I'd do if this job came to my lab) If anyone wants to try to do this, I'll be happy to suggest the hardware to use and I'll even tell ya how to hook it up. But I'm not going to drop a grand or more to answer the question.
Personally, I don't think the strut tower brace would be useful on this car. The FR500C doesn't have one. I'd think that if the strut tower brace really was worthwhile, then the FR500C would have one. (unless the rules specifically forbid such a thing, which I doubt)
_____________________________
2005 Mineral Grey Mustang GT Coupe, Premium, M5, ICAP, IUP, Active Anti-theft, LoJack
Mods: Gave up trying to make it all fit, but ask if interested!
I learned this engineering trick from reading a book about Jim Hall (you know the guy behind the Chaparel Racing Team), and the intuative, extremely simple things he did to make his cars faster. Just as I would check the clearances between a new set of valve covers and high ratio rocker arms or bearing clearances I used the modeling clay/plastigauge method. In this method the clay or wittness material is placed in the areas where you need to know the clearance. The clay/material gets compressed and then you simply cut a section and/or measure the gauge material. When using clay with wire the movement of the wire and scrap aluminium is recored or wittnessed by the clay. So once the flexture ocurres there is a record retained by the clay of that movement. Simply measure the depth of the wittness marks in the caly and there you have it, any movement will be recorded for you. Using this method I added some imagination, a spool of fine wire between the strut tops, rad. support and fire wall. I also used scrap aluminum and clay. The only thing even a well designed un-triangulated strut tower brace can effectively do is maintain the distance between the strut towers, thats' it.
Almost none of the two bolt single bar braces can keep the towers from moving fore and aft or up and down. So I simply measured the amount of compression between the towers using the wire and clay method. Now that I've taught you how to do this type of measurement go ahead and try it out for yourself. You need no special tools to do this measurement, just common engineering sense.
This is how I know for a fact that there is no advantage to be gained by installing an un-triangulated, two-bolt strut tower tie bar. IMO by adding a couple of extra pounds up over the engine in front of the front axles all you are doing is wasting money, effort and mass in the wrong place and for what, looks?
Cheers
I read alot of your stuff on suspension set ups for the S197 It make's a lot of sence. More is not always better. It's hard to tell young guys what's up thay will just have to learn on their own. Twenty Three yr's ago I had a 1967 Mustang Fastback I loved that car. I learned the hard way more is not alway's better.
Whats you take on performance mods for the 4.6L engine Heads, cams. Short Tube vs Long Tube's etc?
Mike
< Message edited by Shadowfax -- 5/29/2006 3:42:09 PM >
Printable Version
RE: Strut tower brace added - 
RE: Strut tower brace added - 
