carb vs EFI
08-07-2005, 12:41 AM
#2
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 463
RE: carb vs EFI
personally, i love the carb. its SOOOOO much easier to tune and the whole engine is SOOOOO very uncomplicated and easy to modify. plus the mods are usually cheap. i have an '85 carb 5.0 and i can tune the timing and fuel in the school parking lot. try that with an EFI. HA. the EFI can put out more power for street use, but look at NASCAR and drag racing, they all use carbs. that should say something.
08-07-2005, 07:08 AM
#5
I ♥ Acer
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location:
Posts: 327
RE: carb vs EFI
EFI is the best!
While using EFI you have the ability to tune the fuel map for warm up, which protects your engine from premature wear. Wide open throttle, idle and anything in between. EFI is much more smoother than the carb. And performance EFI can be made just as inefficient as the carb.
When I say EFI, I mean port injection, either batch or bank. Port injection VS carb. Port injection wins and kicks some ***. Why? Because with carb manifold channels air and fuel, with port injection it channels only air, so more air can be delivered. Another why? Carb's fuel delivery is 2D, amount of fuel VS RPM. EFI is 3D, amount of fuel based on RPM and engine load. It can also be made 4D, amount of fuel based on RPM, engine load, and engine acceleration. This boosts the efficiency of the engine. If with carb you can only pull 50 HP per liter, with EFI 90 HP per liter is possible, or 120 HP with some variable vales, variable length intake, and reverse charging, like beemers do.
The problem in your minds is, "EFI is too freaking complicated and expensive!" That is absolutely not true. Ford (and Chevy, and others) make it complicated. First, they won't release the code for the computer, or tell you how to program it. That's because they don't have to. Second, there is all the emissions crop that has to be dealt with. For example, take late model stang with ECC-V, you slap a chip onto it (a data for your ECC-V program), but there is no way around emissions, like it or not, even with what you think is the best tune out there for your engine, emissions checking prevents you from being all you can be.
What you should be after is an aftermarket EFI system. Tuners (mostly of European and Japanese vehicle) go for these, because they offer the most flexibility and ability to tune, and they are more sensitive than your ECC-V.
One such system is Emerald M3D. http://www.emeraldm3d.com/
Another, which I highly recommend is Megasquirt II. http://www.megasquirt.info/
With megasquirt you can have EFI up and running for under $300. Tuning could be as easy as using wideband O2, but of course a dyno is always better.
IGNITION
Whether you have a carb or EFI on your late model, you can have a better ignition. Better than MSD, better than Accel. Chip programmers (they are really data programmers) often give you a choice of tuning for 87 octane, or 93 octane, or 100 octane. They adjust timing for that really. Advancing timing improves engine's thermal efficiency, more heat is transformed into power, this is good as long as you don't detonate. Now, what do you think your stock timing is? Is it 10 BTDC, or 20 BTDC??? Well, if you have a distributor, then your timing is constant throughout the rpm and engine load range. If you have EDIS, ECC-V, or TFI, then your timing is adjusted using a map, different values for different rpm and engine load. This is better, since timing could be advanced as rpm goes up, and retarded as engine load (or the amount your throttle is open) increases. This gives better drivability of your vehicle at low rpm and small engine load, and tremendous power gains as you open it up, and power increases with rpm.
Providing ignition map data for ECC-V does not offer you flexibility that you could get using a separate ignition controller. And that tune for 93 octane you got is crop. What the tuner did is adjusted timing of all advance values just a few degrees, but you still retain Ford's dumbass ignition map made for emissions and not power. If adjusting ignition timing does not make you spin wheels more, then the tune is not worth your money.
Take a look at Megajolt. www.picasso.org/mjlj
Using this I was able to spin wheels on a 4000 lbs vehicle with 4.6L in 1st and 2nd at will. I span in 4th at 120 while coming off a crest. It's not all about spinning wheels of course. Having an ignition controller you can program at will enables you to create ignition maps that suit your driving and specific fuel you just bought. Understand that as racing get more competitive, DTM and ALMS for example, and as budgets get bigger, teams use more and more advanced computers to control the engines, and they can program them. A ticket to success is the ability to program what you have, you don't see race teams getting a chip. **laugh!**
Megasquirt II and megajolt I introduce to you today are a low budget alternative. These computers are do-it-yourself, and they work, and they are competitive. Just browse the success stories of the forums on their sites, you will find drag cars, track cars, show cars, all using those successfully. Major advantage of these controllers is your ability to tune them easily, to program them to your specific needs, as compared to ECC-V, where you only supply the data (often these data is not even for your specific engine).
What's stopping masses from installing one of these? Most don't know about them. Most don't know how to build one. Most don't know how to install one. Most don't drive Ford. On Fords these systems are practically a bolt on, especially Megajolt. That's because Ford already uses 36-1 tooth gear necessary to run EDIS module (which megajolt controls). Megasquirt II is easy to install as well, you'd even be using your stock ECC-V harness.
If you decide to install any of these, let me know, I'll put one of these for you together free of charge for promotional purposes. I'll even tell you what to buy and how to install it.
I'm attaching a white paper written on ECC-IV by Tom Cloud of University of Taxes. Rename the to .zip. In comparison to any aftermarket or DIY EFI system, ECC-IV and V is just a piece of garbage, when it comes to using it for racing.
AL
While using EFI you have the ability to tune the fuel map for warm up, which protects your engine from premature wear. Wide open throttle, idle and anything in between. EFI is much more smoother than the carb. And performance EFI can be made just as inefficient as the carb.
When I say EFI, I mean port injection, either batch or bank. Port injection VS carb. Port injection wins and kicks some ***. Why? Because with carb manifold channels air and fuel, with port injection it channels only air, so more air can be delivered. Another why? Carb's fuel delivery is 2D, amount of fuel VS RPM. EFI is 3D, amount of fuel based on RPM and engine load. It can also be made 4D, amount of fuel based on RPM, engine load, and engine acceleration. This boosts the efficiency of the engine. If with carb you can only pull 50 HP per liter, with EFI 90 HP per liter is possible, or 120 HP with some variable vales, variable length intake, and reverse charging, like beemers do.
The problem in your minds is, "EFI is too freaking complicated and expensive!" That is absolutely not true. Ford (and Chevy, and others) make it complicated. First, they won't release the code for the computer, or tell you how to program it. That's because they don't have to. Second, there is all the emissions crop that has to be dealt with. For example, take late model stang with ECC-V, you slap a chip onto it (a data for your ECC-V program), but there is no way around emissions, like it or not, even with what you think is the best tune out there for your engine, emissions checking prevents you from being all you can be.
What you should be after is an aftermarket EFI system. Tuners (mostly of European and Japanese vehicle) go for these, because they offer the most flexibility and ability to tune, and they are more sensitive than your ECC-V.
One such system is Emerald M3D. http://www.emeraldm3d.com/
Another, which I highly recommend is Megasquirt II. http://www.megasquirt.info/
With megasquirt you can have EFI up and running for under $300. Tuning could be as easy as using wideband O2, but of course a dyno is always better.
IGNITION
Whether you have a carb or EFI on your late model, you can have a better ignition. Better than MSD, better than Accel. Chip programmers (they are really data programmers) often give you a choice of tuning for 87 octane, or 93 octane, or 100 octane. They adjust timing for that really. Advancing timing improves engine's thermal efficiency, more heat is transformed into power, this is good as long as you don't detonate. Now, what do you think your stock timing is? Is it 10 BTDC, or 20 BTDC??? Well, if you have a distributor, then your timing is constant throughout the rpm and engine load range. If you have EDIS, ECC-V, or TFI, then your timing is adjusted using a map, different values for different rpm and engine load. This is better, since timing could be advanced as rpm goes up, and retarded as engine load (or the amount your throttle is open) increases. This gives better drivability of your vehicle at low rpm and small engine load, and tremendous power gains as you open it up, and power increases with rpm.
Providing ignition map data for ECC-V does not offer you flexibility that you could get using a separate ignition controller. And that tune for 93 octane you got is crop. What the tuner did is adjusted timing of all advance values just a few degrees, but you still retain Ford's dumbass ignition map made for emissions and not power. If adjusting ignition timing does not make you spin wheels more, then the tune is not worth your money.
Take a look at Megajolt. www.picasso.org/mjlj
Using this I was able to spin wheels on a 4000 lbs vehicle with 4.6L in 1st and 2nd at will. I span in 4th at 120 while coming off a crest. It's not all about spinning wheels of course. Having an ignition controller you can program at will enables you to create ignition maps that suit your driving and specific fuel you just bought. Understand that as racing get more competitive, DTM and ALMS for example, and as budgets get bigger, teams use more and more advanced computers to control the engines, and they can program them. A ticket to success is the ability to program what you have, you don't see race teams getting a chip. **laugh!**
Megasquirt II and megajolt I introduce to you today are a low budget alternative. These computers are do-it-yourself, and they work, and they are competitive. Just browse the success stories of the forums on their sites, you will find drag cars, track cars, show cars, all using those successfully. Major advantage of these controllers is your ability to tune them easily, to program them to your specific needs, as compared to ECC-V, where you only supply the data (often these data is not even for your specific engine).
What's stopping masses from installing one of these? Most don't know about them. Most don't know how to build one. Most don't know how to install one. Most don't drive Ford. On Fords these systems are practically a bolt on, especially Megajolt. That's because Ford already uses 36-1 tooth gear necessary to run EDIS module (which megajolt controls). Megasquirt II is easy to install as well, you'd even be using your stock ECC-V harness.
If you decide to install any of these, let me know, I'll put one of these for you together free of charge for promotional purposes. I'll even tell you what to buy and how to install it.
I'm attaching a white paper written on ECC-IV by Tom Cloud of University of Taxes. Rename the to .zip. In comparison to any aftermarket or DIY EFI system, ECC-IV and V is just a piece of garbage, when it comes to using it for racing.
AL
08-07-2005, 01:04 PM
#7
5th Gear Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location:
Posts: 3,062
RE: carb vs EFI
ORIGINAL: 83beast
i have an '85 carb 5.0 and i can tune the timing and fuel in the school parking lot. try that with an EFI. HA.
i have an '85 carb 5.0 and i can tune the timing and fuel in the school parking lot. try that with an EFI. HA.
Parking lot? With EFI I could be adjusting that stuff while at a traffic light, just punch it up on your handheld tuner
08-07-2005, 04:06 PM
#8
2nd Gear Member
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bethlehem
Posts: 463
RE: carb vs EFI
and the tuner is HOW much??? i'm talking tuning with a friggin pocket knife! but again, most, not all, most racing is with carbs and there is a ton of power with them. plus the money. carb intake=$125 efi intake=>$300. and theres the factor of what u can do by yourself. if u know the computers then u can use a tuner and efi, but if u can use handtools, a carb is good. plus i can put as much fuel in the engine as i want, nothing to regulate emmisions either. i dont need cats. no obdII or crap like that.
08-07-2005, 06:24 PM
#9
EXTREME Moderation
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: BLAM-O
Posts: 7,895
RE: carb vs EFI
good info. the post didn't really specify better for what... and megasquirt II???? what a funny *** name. I wouldn't put anything called a megasquirt II in my car if it gave me 1200 hp.